Staball 6.5 loads.
- Thread starter Jscb1b
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Cool, that's what I'm running but with a proof carbon. I had really good groups at 20thou off with the 130 vld, but I don't know yet if the seating depth will change anything but I'm hoping to go shoot these 3 different tests tomorrow and will report back.
I was getting ~3050fps with 44gr of StaBall + 108ELDM's out of a 26" 7.5T 6creed, think I was ~.040" off. These days I'm running it slower on purpose: ~2900fps using 41gr of powder and jumping a lot (~.100" off).
Not an exact science here, but seems like with StaBall if you add +2 grains to whatever charge you were using with H4350, it's been real close for me.
Both loads shoot well, but I dig the slower one for its fake-Dasher-ish qualities... that said, the 44gr load hammered and if fresh barrels were easier to get a hold of I'd probably of stuck with the 44gr load.
YMMV.
Well, true to form the 130gr Berger vld grouped awesome when touching the lands. Here's the card and info.
The 153.5 is going to be a bigger challenge. I only did a pressure test plus 5 rounds at what powder charge I was shooting the others at. Well I got a little swipe at 42.5gr with the 153.5 bullets.... the speed I could shoot them at where I I have any pressure wasn't quite what I wanted but was acceptable and would still be super sonics at 1500, but I may have to change powders to get where I want to be with that bullet.
The 153.5 is going to be a bigger challenge. I only did a pressure test plus 5 rounds at what powder charge I was shooting the others at. Well I got a little swipe at 42.5gr with the 153.5 bullets.... the speed I could shoot them at where I I have any pressure wasn't quite what I wanted but was acceptable and would still be super sonics at 1500, but I may have to change powders to get where I want to be with that bullet.
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If anyone has any suggestions of how I might get that 153.5 bullet going a little faster without having pressure signs I'm all ears.....
I have several other powders I can try, and one in particular that I think might do it well (IMR 4166), but I am pursuing the 6.5 staball because of its insensitivity to temperature variations.
That bullet also was rubbing my mag and not feeding well as a result because the coal was so long, so I certainly can't load it touching the lands and will have to find a jump that it likes that is pretty significant. Sure hope it works out because I just bought 500 of em....
I have several other powders I can try, and one in particular that I think might do it well (IMR 4166), but I am pursuing the 6.5 staball because of its insensitivity to temperature variations.
That bullet also was rubbing my mag and not feeding well as a result because the coal was so long, so I certainly can't load it touching the lands and will have to find a jump that it likes that is pretty significant. Sure hope it works out because I just bought 500 of em....
...I load for semi's so I typically start my loads at just short of mag length for whatever bullet I'm testing. In most cases the majority of bullets will have jump from the beginning. I test charge weights for pressure & speed, then adjust seating depth deeper, if required, after selecting a charge weight, usually closer to the the lower node. In most cases as the bullet is seated deeper there may be an increase in FPS, but its not significant, but pressure doesn't increase, which is my goal along with accuracy & consistency.
I have some 6.5 Stabl inbound that was intended for my 6ARC testing, but LeverE became available so the Stabal will go for my 6.5 Creedmoor, no H4350 is available, unfortunately. My locale has steady temps, 86-90F year round so "temp stable" powders are less critical for me.
I have some 6.5 Stabl inbound that was intended for my 6ARC testing, but LeverE became available so the Stabal will go for my 6.5 Creedmoor, no H4350 is available, unfortunately. My locale has steady temps, 86-90F year round so "temp stable" powders are less critical for me.
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Yeah, a friend sent me this from a Berger book (which I need to get, I have nosler and Hornady but need to get berger) and I was surprised at the amount of jump they were suggesting for those who didn't want to jamb the lands.
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Yes, I've read that years ago and it works for their VLD bullets and I've found it applies to other brands of bullets with secant ogives as well. I've found that for semi's, bullets with a tangent ogive are easier to tune in mag length COAL's. I've some of Berger's hybrid ogive bullets inbound to test how they work (Elite Hunter series).
R16 and R26 will get you really fast. R26 will get you faster but I believe R16 is more temp stable. Either of these two powders are going to be your golden ticket. They are very slow burning though, so you'll have to really stuff the cases and maybe crunch a little bit.
I think it's a Berger reloading manual but I know it's a Berger book. I will ask him for the name tomorrow.
....these links to the Berger site provide info on VLD seating and COAL considerations that you might find useful:
VLD - Making it Shoot
VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly
bergerbullets.com
Soooo.... I traded my Berger 153.5 for some Barns 145 matchburners, and SMK 150, and I got some 140 ELDM too.
I have them loaded for pressure test but I did the last part of the range (where I expext to be) in .1gr step ups so I can see grouping a little easier and use more targets while testing pressure. Hoping to move a little faster here since I have 3 to test. Once I get the pressure figures out and see how fast I'm running with each, as well as how they group, I will probably pick 2 and go with that for seating test. Then pick 1 of them and really see what I can do. I should be able to get this figured out and I'm sort of hoping the barns 145 will be "the one".... it should do what I want and get me out to 1500 while super and possible shoot a mile accurately. 1500 is the goal even though I don't currently have a good place to even shoot quite that far. That is coming in the spring when I buy my land. All in good time, especially since between my work (which is busier than I've ever been) and my kids baseball, I just don't have much time anyway.
I will report back here how it goes. I hope yall will keep reporting here as well with your 6.5staball powder loads too.
I have them loaded for pressure test but I did the last part of the range (where I expext to be) in .1gr step ups so I can see grouping a little easier and use more targets while testing pressure. Hoping to move a little faster here since I have 3 to test. Once I get the pressure figures out and see how fast I'm running with each, as well as how they group, I will probably pick 2 and go with that for seating test. Then pick 1 of them and really see what I can do. I should be able to get this figured out and I'm sort of hoping the barns 145 will be "the one".... it should do what I want and get me out to 1500 while super and possible shoot a mile accurately. 1500 is the goal even though I don't currently have a good place to even shoot quite that far. That is coming in the spring when I buy my land. All in good time, especially since between my work (which is busier than I've ever been) and my kids baseball, I just don't have much time anyway.
I will report back here how it goes. I hope yall will keep reporting here as well with your 6.5staball powder loads too.
What's the farthest you have shot any of these test loads? What was the reason for leaving the 153.5s?
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Just didn't fit in my mag well enough without a big jump really. I've shot em at 600 but it wasn't really ideal when I did. Those bergera are really long. I didn't realize how long until I got em. The 130's grouped excellent, but just not quite enough weight. I have a feeling the barns will work perfectly for what I want, I just had the opportunity to try the smk so I did. I shot smk in my 308 and it did very well out to 1200
Let us know how the 145 Barnes work for you. I'm sitting on something like 900 of them.
Sure will. I have heard really good things about them and they can be loaded to normal AI mag length but still have enough weight to do what we want them to do so I have high expectations for them. I have 500 of em now so hopefully if they work like I expect, I wi have enough to last until they become more available again. What I really need is H4350 or RL16 apparently..... I haven't seen any Alliant powder around here in quite a while. Got plenty of the 6.5staball though, so I am really trying use it. It performs great, and meters grate too, just got pressure earlier than I'd have liked to for the speed
I haven't had much luck with the 145 MB. 140s are fine though.
Now that my barrel has 700ish rounds through it, I might run another test. I'd really like for them to shoot well since they should be great at the 1 mile targets.
The 135 JLK does great.
Now that my barrel has 700ish rounds through it, I might run another test. I'd really like for them to shoot well since they should be great at the 1 mile targets.
The 135 JLK does great.
Ah gotcha. Buddy was looking at those in the factory loaded flavor. Oddly I'm going to try shooting my Berger 140s right at jam b/c when doing so with my 140 Match Burners fire forming new brass....um.....they already shot crazy, but now even a lil better. I'm just a single loader anyway so mag length isn't an issue with me.
and 140g Bergara work outstanding ata mile too don't forget to try them.
You gotta bring the JLKs/Lapoo out next time no more foolery with Hornady brASS let's get on that IPSC Friday!
Got a hunnert of dem sittin in a new plastic box just waiting...
And 34 older ones.
And a few ELDM/Horndaddy left over from yesterday.
All of them are still propelled by the brown jug powder.
I'll switch to green jug here pretty soon.
Juggs...
Wasn't that a magazine?
You don't have to answer that. It's a yes.
Wasn't that a magazine?
You don't have to answer that. It's a yes.
I found that 147gr OEM Hornady ammo shoots at 2650-2670 in a Proof 65CM 1:8 CF.
I was able to use it to hit 6in targets at 1000 yards without issue out of a tikka t3x tac a1 with the proof drop in barrel.
8.4 mils of dope… works like a champ.
There is no great need to get them going faster, and in a t3x action the bolt sticks with 2800 fps rounds.
The proof barrel was second to none… Doesn’t copper up… And shoots those bullets fabulously.
I was able to use it to hit 6in targets at 1000 yards without issue out of a tikka t3x tac a1 with the proof drop in barrel.
8.4 mils of dope… works like a champ.
There is no great need to get them going faster, and in a t3x action the bolt sticks with 2800 fps rounds.
The proof barrel was second to none… Doesn’t copper up… And shoots those bullets fabulously.
I’m curious, which were the Hornady bullets that were blowing up due to excessive speed?
I’m pretty sure that those 147‘s are supposed to be kept in around a 2850 FPS range?
Also, I’m kind of curious if anyone has bothered to shoot solids? Such as the Warner tool company bullets or the Lehigh bullets?
So are you saying that the impact of humidity change on Staball velocities is worse than other powders, or just that it's a bigger impact then temperature? If the former, your StaBall numbers don't seem as bad as the Varget numbers in the link you posted, so what other powders have you found to be superior in this regard.
"The current jug that I'm running out of does 2810fps using 30.3gr. It is in a flat spot/ node. 30gr does 2900. I loaded 29.7gr of the stuff in the hopper (that came from the same jug) . That gets me 2820! I broke open the new jug bc I knew I'd have to adjust for it and wanted to know what it was doing. 30.4gr gets me 2765."
Ok from that excerpt from your first post on the other thread it looked like if 30gr of dried Varget got you 2,900 fps, and 30.4gr of new undried Varget got you 2,765 fps, then you were looking at a much larger swing. Not sure I understand what you're saying in that post correctly though, written a little confusingly.
I guess the next question would be does StaBall come out of the jug with higher starting water content than Varget. You know the ending point after drying is probably similar, but they are made different places, so the starting water content could well be quite different. To get a good characterization of better and worse humidity stability between powders you'd really have to know the starting point as well, not just the ending point.
One thing I haven't really seen addressed very well in all the recent discussions of powder humidity sensitivity is, to what extent to the powders take up or lose water in sealed jugs? Most plastics are not good vapor barriers, so why wouldn't powders change water content before you even open them from varied storage? The jugs just seem like basic HDPE right, so there shouldn't be much vapor control unless they are specially treated?
Reviving this thread with a question.
Has anyone found this powder to be very dirty?
I started using it and my first loads seemed very promising. (6.5C, Horn 140 ELD-M, CCI small rifle primers) 15-20 rounds.
Next trip, next batch, showed glimpses of wanting to shoot, but didn't really. 15 rounds fired? I had taken the action out of the stock and blamed not torquing it right on big groups.
Fired another 20 rounds today. First group was not good (about an 1" 100 yards.) Second "group" was a flat stitch line, 5 shots, all touching, strung left to right. Chalked that up to me, something I was doing. Next load another big 1" group. The last load put 4 into .310", with a "flyer" making the whole 5 shot group .610".
I pulled the bolt just for the heck of it. Looking down the barrel I was shocked! There was such darkness at the bottom off the bore the whole length of the barrel! (WTF am I shooting black powder? WW2 surplus ammo? lol) I've don't recall ever seeing so much crud in a rifle barrel shooting smokeless powder. Wasn't like an old dark neglected barrel that's just dark all over, it was only on the bottom, say 5 to 7 o'clock. Un-burnt or bi-product of burnt powder. Unfortunately I had no cleaning gear with so I couldn't wipe it to see how easily it would come out.
So I'm here, wondering, asking, is this the norm? Anyone else seeing this? Did I get some funky pandemic shortage floor sweepings powder?
I have some magnum small rifle primers, maybe I'll give some of them a try, see if it does the same thing?
Has anyone found this powder to be very dirty?
I started using it and my first loads seemed very promising. (6.5C, Horn 140 ELD-M, CCI small rifle primers) 15-20 rounds.
Next trip, next batch, showed glimpses of wanting to shoot, but didn't really. 15 rounds fired? I had taken the action out of the stock and blamed not torquing it right on big groups.
Fired another 20 rounds today. First group was not good (about an 1" 100 yards.) Second "group" was a flat stitch line, 5 shots, all touching, strung left to right. Chalked that up to me, something I was doing. Next load another big 1" group. The last load put 4 into .310", with a "flyer" making the whole 5 shot group .610".
I pulled the bolt just for the heck of it. Looking down the barrel I was shocked! There was such darkness at the bottom off the bore the whole length of the barrel! (WTF am I shooting black powder? WW2 surplus ammo? lol) I've don't recall ever seeing so much crud in a rifle barrel shooting smokeless powder. Wasn't like an old dark neglected barrel that's just dark all over, it was only on the bottom, say 5 to 7 o'clock. Un-burnt or bi-product of burnt powder. Unfortunately I had no cleaning gear with so I couldn't wipe it to see how easily it would come out.
So I'm here, wondering, asking, is this the norm? Anyone else seeing this? Did I get some funky pandemic shortage floor sweepings powder?
I have some magnum small rifle primers, maybe I'll give some of them a try, see if it does the same thing?
You're not imagining it ... StaBall is dirty ... much dirtier than other similar burn-speed powders. That said ... it works. I've gotten great results and have single-digit reference loads for multiple 6.5-CM bullets. Haven't been able to get the same results with other powders. I've realized that a good cleaning after every range trip or competition ... is just part of the game when using this powder. It's no big deal ... and cleans up just fine with standard solvents and tools. I've got probably 1,500 rounds of it through my Tikka T3x TAC A1 and after cleaning, the barrel looks as good as any other at that stage of life. Just realize (1) you can find it, (2) it works well, and (3) cleaning your 6.5-CM rifle a little better and more often is just part of the game. If you don't like that game ... don't use it. That's my advice.
I use 210s and don’t have these problems. You want better combustion, use a magnum primer: 450 or 7 1/2.
Yeah it is dirty but it works pretty well and meters really good. I just clean a little more often and that's really it.
I haven't noticed serious filthiness or accuracy degradation using staball in my 6.5cr loads. I do use CCI #34 primers though which I've been told function more like magnum primers. It performs very well with Sierra 140gr smks.
Where I currently live, I wind up having to keep most of my powder in the garage and it can be fairly humid part of the year. I started keeping big bags of desiccant in my plastic powder storage totes, pulling the ambient humidity in the totes down pretty low (<10%). Even though the powder bottles themselves were sealed, I think I pulled the humidity down in the powder over time and got a little elevated velocities and some higher pressure. I mostly noticed the difference with StaBall and LVR, my StaBall loads picked up ~30 fps, and showed some increased pressure. I had to drop about 0.4gr to get my velocities back to where they were. Anyway, I am trying to bring the powders back up to ~50% humidity, so hopefully my original loads will fall back in line. Won't be using the big desiccant packs in my powder storage area in the future.
As for buildup, I haven't noticed StaBall to be dirtier than other modern powders with copper fouling and temp sensitivity modifiers like RL-16 and AR-Comp, but of course those aren't super clean either... I'll take the tradeoff though.
As for buildup, I haven't noticed StaBall to be dirtier than other modern powders with copper fouling and temp sensitivity modifiers like RL-16 and AR-Comp, but of course those aren't super clean either... I'll take the tradeoff though.
I've noticed it's a little dirtier than the stick/extruded usual suspects (H4350/H4831/RL16/Varget) too.
I don't care, it's awesome.
If anyone is on the list for an AT4, consider yourself one spot closer, because I'm taking a pass on mine and sticking with StaBall. It's just too hard to go back to dicking around with the stick powders for me.
FYI/FWIW: from what I've been seeing, I've found that if I choose to use/enter/include the ambient powder temperature parameter in the calculator (I use Strelok Pro), StaBall seems to perform very nearly as reliable/dependable as H4350/RL16 as far as the calculator spitting out the correct dope (especially when it's cold). I never used to use that parameter, but it seems to have done the trick for me as far as narrowing the gap in temp stability between StaBall and H4350/RL16. YMMV.
I don't care, it's awesome.
If anyone is on the list for an AT4, consider yourself one spot closer, because I'm taking a pass on mine and sticking with StaBall. It's just too hard to go back to dicking around with the stick powders for me.
FYI/FWIW: from what I've been seeing, I've found that if I choose to use/enter/include the ambient powder temperature parameter in the calculator (I use Strelok Pro), StaBall seems to perform very nearly as reliable/dependable as H4350/RL16 as far as the calculator spitting out the correct dope (especially when it's cold). I never used to use that parameter, but it seems to have done the trick for me as far as narrowing the gap in temp stability between StaBall and H4350/RL16. YMMV.
What value are you using for Temp sensitivity for StaBall? I'm about to shoot my 1st ladder with it. 41.3 to 44.0 grs with COL of 2.820.
Oops. I've been running Strelok forever and it appears that parameter is either gone or now I can't find it. Just a checkbox to turn on powder temp.
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I guess "sooty" would be a way to describe it? I ran a dry patch down the bore and the trough of crud was gone. No way to get a good picture of it with my phone. One at the range, one indoor with a flashlight. No way to focus IN the barrel, but you can see how dark and how much texture the bottom of the barrel has.
What bullet are you using?What value are you using for Temp sensitivity for StaBall? I'm about to shoot my 1st ladder with it. 41.3 to 44.0 grs with COL of 2.820.
Oops. I've been running Strelok forever and it appears that parameter is either gone or now I can't find it. Just a checkbox to turn on powder temp.
It's under MV:What value are you using for Temp sensitivity for StaBall? I'm about to shoot my 1st ladder with it. 41.3 to 44.0 grs with COL of 2.820.
Oops. I've been running Strelok forever and it appears that parameter is either gone or now I can't find it. Just a checkbox to turn on powder temp.
But I was talking about the parameter at the top of the settings page "Consider Powder Temperature" (which is what you think the ambient temp of your ammo is sitting in the box or in the mag, it defaults to the current temp so if it's cold like 32degF or hot at 90degF, it considers/includes that):
