Start on the best or ....

[Iron Hide776]

Lets say you are starting new again into long range shooting for target, hunting, etc.(or to give advice to someone that is starting)

Would you start off with a rem 700 or a savage then upgrade, or would you go with a AI, GAP, or etc custom build right off the bat?
This also includes what caliber you would recommend starting with, plus the intentions to reload said caliber.

Will be shooting targets and hunting (deer, coyote, tn wildlife)

Money is not really an issue, I am not loaded but I will save and be patient for things I deem worthy.

 

[George Az]

Get a good .22 rimfire and take it out past one hundred yards more like 150 to 200 on small targets using a good FFP scope. Try a CZ with a decent bolt action H/B trainer.

take a good class or find some folks that really shoot and start learning.

Then look into a .260 of some decent quality and a decent ffp scope.

 

[leadbullet]

Start with the best you can afford and practice practice practice.

 

[Iron Hide776]

Get a good .22 rimfire and take it out past one hundred yards more like 150 to 200 on small targets using a good FFP scope. Try a CZ with a decent bolt action H/B trainer.

take a good class or find some folks that really shoot and start learning.

Then look into a .260 of some decent quality and a decent ffp scope.

How small is small targets?

 

[George Az]

Dude, I am learning and breaking new ground myself. When I changed my paradigm thanks to some of the guys I met and shoot with through here, 2 & 3 inch targets with a .22 rimfire are quite doable with my home built 10/22 and decent ammo at 100 yards. I am learning to dial rather than hold.

I spend some time in the Marines, I get iron sights, I hunt and I am comfortable with a fair factory rifle to 300 yards, prone, standing and sitting in the dirt no mat, off a bipod.
I can shoot over well 500 yards within minutes from my house (can I hit it?) and I am rethinking the entire process. It is doable if you follow a formula and practice. learn to read wind and mirage. Learn how to use the ffp scope and ballitic programs.

Take some classes, watch some vid's. If you don't reload, you will have to try to figure that in too, unless you go with a factory cartridge. The .260 is doing very well. The .308 both factory rounds and components have been hard to find. You got money? Go custom all the way, there are a few folks here that can build you a gun. It won't make you shoot better if you don't understand or know the fundamentals. And i would still recomend a .260.

So that .22 CZ even with decent ammo and a decent ffp scope is going to set you back - but you would learn right.

 

[B.A.C.]

I'm still pretty new to the game and I started with a Remington 5R. It's a nice gun, but if I were to start over again I'd buy a Tikka T3. I hesitate to tell fellow beginners that they need to buy AI or GAP quality rifles simply because I'm not aware of their financial situation. This hobby can get expensive quickly and only they can decide how deep they want to venture.

 

[MosesTheTank]

If money is not an issue then start with the best. What you will likely wind up doing no matter what rifle you get is wanting to tweak it enough that will lead to a 2nd rifle, and then... If you were standing around with 10 great rifles of different configurations and handled them for a few hours and had the advice of a few experienced shooters you could narrow options down. But that is very different from owning it and shooting it a few thousand times. So just get a great one. Some of the standard offerings from GAP and AO are configured that way because they are popular and work well together. There's not much I would change to a GAP Gladius, and for a match rifle I would hands down go with the AO TMR. Adding a NV rail to an AI-AT, and no other options, is on my list.

If you can find someone near you that has one or more of these rifles and would let you fondle them then do it. If you have a builder you can drive to, all the better. Then go big.

 

[woojos]

Depending on the person, I'd say save your money and get something functional then shoot it. This experience will teach you what you really want in a gun, then after you figure out what you want, you can throw your hard earned money down.

It's hard to wrong with any of the manufacturers you mentioned, but if you can't name the reasons why you spent an extra X $1000 dollars on a specific piece of equipment, other than "it is the best", you probably don't need it. This is x10 on scopes.

I'd much rather take a small hit selling entry level equipment, than the much larger hit on selling high end stuff, when I figure it's not exactly what I was looking for.

 

[EventHorizon]

My .02 dollars of advice.

1. Do not go with a rifle build that will take months and months or even years (as mine did - dumb dumb dumb). Get a decent rifle from the classifieds or one from a dealer (give Short Action Customs a call to see if they have inventory. Mark Gordon makes a great rifle, has his own action and won't sell you shit). Assume you will need to re-barrel a used rifle (it's just human nature...) The sooner you have a rifle the sooner the real learning will begin. Also do not go with a crappy optic. Again, look in the classifieds for a good optic - look up Ilya's reviews of optics. DO NOT GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT THE GEAR. If you buy something, find it doesn't work for you, dump it and get something that does.

2. Get to a GOOD class. This may require travel and be expensive but it will be worth it. Your main objective will be to learn how to practice intelligently, safely and productively on your own. Go to the class with YOUR rifle.

3. Get the IOTA from a Hide member here. I don't recall his name but it's a great learning tool for indoor dry-firing. It would be perfect if you find a good class with an instructor who is familiar with the IOTA so he can give you some practice drills with it. Otherwise, there's plenty of info here in the forums.

4. The caliber on your first rifle will not be so important so long as it's not a retarded choice like a 50 BMG or 338LM. You want a caliber that is fun, not punishing to shoot and one that won't give you bad habits (flinch) because of punishing recoil. .308 is fine, I like my 6.5CR but there are plenty to choose from. Go for something that gives you a good barrel life so you can spend your money on ammo and learning, not components and smith fees.

5. The start up costs of reloading are high. As is the time investment. Determine if you have the time to spend. If you're going to do this, then get GOOD components. I went cheap initially and it's just a waste of time and money as you'll go and buy the expensive and good stuff anyway. Reloading can be a joy or a living hell. I cannot over-state the importance of finding your own 'Yoda' in reloading. There's so much 'stuff' out there it can be very confusing. Again, perhaps a class would help but my advice would be to not get too complex too early. Don't try and do what the benchresters do if you're hitting steel for instance.

6. Learn what works for you but in order to do that, you need to learn the fundamentals. In the first year or so of shooting it's always YOU, not the kit. Ask me how I know...

7. Look at your bank balance and bid it a sweet 'adieu'.

8. Welcome to the real world, you've taken the red pill....

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If you can afford it there's no reason not to start with the best, after all you'll wind up there eventually so you'll save yourself buying and selling and losing money on each upgrade. There's no "beginner" rifle and there's no written code saying you have to start off with a commercial grade rifle. By starting with the best you also take out a variable and let the shooter concentrate on shooting, not was that me or my gear?

If you want the best then buy an AI. You won't deal with stupid little function problems like you will on other rifles. If you're not in any rush I'd contact the match director at the guardian match in wytheville, VA on 4/26 and see if they allow spectators (pretty sure they do). If they do come out and watch the match, you will see plenty of rifles hiccup even in good conditions. Most people will also let you check out their setups which I'm sure will help your decision vs looking at pics online. You're more than welcome to finger fuck my AX and even shoot it if they'll allow you to. If my AT is here by then (should be) I can bring it down as well.

 

[steve123]

OP, you mentioned hunting so pay attention to the weight and size of the rifle as well as the scope. Most tactical rifle/tactical type scope combo's end up being in the 16-17 lb range and that's with a medium contour barrel.

Years ago I asked myself the same question as you have. I feel I made a good decision by buying a used custom rifle here off the Hide. It was just what I wanted and was in my cartridge of choice which is 6x47L. The guy that built it probably had another $1500 on top of what I paid. I'm on my 4th and 5th and 6th barrels right now, one heavy and one medium and a light one in 20x47L. It's a easy 10 minute barrel swap using a action wrench and barrel vice to change barrels for different situations which saves having to invest thousands of dollars more in rifles and scopes.

Here's a FYI for you. I commissioned a build on a custom rifle which took 10 months for the GS to finish. That sucked because he said he'd have it done in 3 months. Be careful who you choose to build a rifle AND parts availability!

I highly recommend getting a stock with a adjustable cheek height and LOP, it can make a huge difference in how well a guy shoots a rifle.

It's a good idea to take a trip to a tactical match sometime. Get to know the guys a little bit, explain your situation and ask them if you can get behind their rifles to see what your preferences are.

There are other considerations. After trying other rifles over the years I decided that I didn't like 60 degree bolt lift and 2 stage triggers. You may love them and many do. With others it doesn't matter either way. Better of course to decide that before you buy.

Scopes~ Do yourself a big favor and buy a FFP scope with mil turrets and mil reticle. The Bushnell LRHS is near perfect as a all around scope.

 

[JRM83]

Depending on the person, I'd say save your money and get something functional then shoot it. This experience will teach you what you really want in a gun, then after you figure out what you want, you can throw your hard earned money down.

It's hard to wrong with any of the manufacturers you mentioned, but if you can't name the reasons why you spent an extra X $1000 dollars on a specific piece of equipment, other than "it is the best", you probably don't need it. This is x10 on scopes.

I'd much rather take a small hit selling entry level equipment, than the much larger hit on selling high end stuff, when I figure it's not exactly what I was looking for.

+1 and x1,000,000

 

[peaceatwar]

Build exactly what you want now. Buy quality components, know the resale value. I went from a FN SPR A5M to a GAP in a matter of a month. If I had bought the GAP first I would've saved some $$$.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Nothing wrong with getting started with a decent factory rifle, just don't spend a ton of money upgrading it into something "awesome". When you want something awesome, buy it pre-made that way, either as an awesome factory rifle, or a custom built one.

A big factor is knowing if this is a hobby/sport you will invest yourself in. If you *know* you'll be serious about it, then buying a great high end rifle right off the bat makes sense, provided you can afford it. If you want to try it out and see if LR shooting is fun for you, it makes sense to just buy a Savage or Remington and shoot it for a while.

 

[diggler1833]

If you can afford the best, I'd go that route. Buy once, cry once is something that I live by because I have learned the hard way that buying cheaper ususally costs more in the end. That being said I have been very fortunate to have had some accurate sticks that were factory made. Handloading helps a ton. Buying something that keeps you from being able to afford ammo does not help at all.

 

[rpk762]

If you have never used a ffp scope you may want to try one before you buy one. I bought one without doing the math or being able to handle one. I hate it when it is getting dark and the power setting is low the retical is very hard to see.

 

[Iron Hide776]

Thank you everyone for the information. I still have loads to learn sooo here we go.

My .02 dollars of advice.

1. Do not go with a rifle build that will take months and months or even years (as mine did - dumb dumb dumb). Get a decent rifle from the classifieds or one from a dealer (give Short Action Customs a call to see if they have inventory. Mark Gordon makes a great rifle, has his own action and won't sell you shit). Assume you will need to re-barrel a used rifle (it's just human nature...) The sooner you have a rifle the sooner the real learning will begin. Also do not go with a crappy optic. Again, look in the classifieds for a good optic - look up Ilya's reviews of optics. DO NOT GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT THE GEAR. If you buy something, find it doesn't work for you, dump it and get something that does.

2. Get to a GOOD class. This may require travel and be expensive but it will be worth it. Your main objective will be to learn how to practice intelligently, safely and productively on your own. Go to the class with YOUR rifle.

3. Get the IOTA from a Hide member here. I don't recall his name but it's a great learning tool for indoor dry-firing. It would be perfect if you find a good class with an instructor who is familiar with the IOTA so he can give you some practice drills with it. Otherwise, there's plenty of info here in the forums.

4. The caliber on your first rifle will not be so important so long as it's not a retarded choice like a 50 BMG or 338LM. You want a caliber that is fun, not punishing to shoot and one that won't give you bad habits (flinch) because of punishing recoil. .308 is fine, I like my 6.5CR but there are plenty to choose from. Go for something that gives you a good barrel life so you can spend your money on ammo and learning, not components and smith fees.

5. The start up costs of reloading are high. As is the time investment. Determine if you have the time to spend. If you're going to do this, then get GOOD components. I went cheap initially and it's just a waste of time and money as you'll go and buy the expensive and good stuff anyway. Reloading can be a joy or a living hell. I cannot over-state the importance of finding your own 'Yoda' in reloading. There's so much 'stuff' out there it can be very confusing. Again, perhaps a class would help but my advice would be to not get too complex too early. Don't try and do what the benchresters do if you're hitting steel for instance.

6. Learn what works for you but in order to do that, you need to learn the fundamentals. In the first year or so of shooting it's always YOU, not the kit. Ask me how I know...

7. Look at your bank balance and bid it a sweet 'adieu'.

1. I know looking in the for sale section is hit or miss. When I get the money, how does one set up to buy it?

2. I have seen all the sneak peaks to the hide videos. How Helpful are they?

3. IOTA?

4. I figured .308 would be good to start with for the barrel life and known ballistics.

5. I am very interested in learning more about reloading. I have a Lee press and have been reloading pistol rounds for a bit and find it very enjoyable. I have read and people have told me reloading rifle rounds are more complex. I am very interested in learning all I can about it as the equipment needed, techniques, how to set up a load for a specific rifle set up. I heard about neck sizing is easier/more accurate for one particular bolt rifle. I also would like to know the life of brass and how to prolong it if possible.

6. How do you know?

7. I am in college about to graduate so I am used to saying "adieu" to my bank balance. And money is not an issue for the most part. As stated above I have no trouble waiting and saving for exactly what I want.

 

[Iron Hide776]

Things I have been looking at is the AICS stocks. I like the way they look and the size but no personal experience.
I have heard they are heavy. After using one of my uncles rifles weighting 15-16 lbs and I did not mind carrying it through the woods.
That being said are they heavier?

The FFP scopes, I have read on here alot of people the the viper pst ones yay or nay?

I like the idea of buy once cry once though.

 

[steve123]

At this point in your quest for a long range rifle, scope, and all the other gear needed, you have no idea what you'll like or what you won't or whether you'll remain interested in continuing with long range shooting or not.

A Viper PST is not what most would consider a buy once cry once scope. Though they have a good warranty it seems the warranty gets used more than most want to admit. The Razor maybe. Buy once cry once scopes are expensive. 3-4 times the cost of a PST sometimes.

AICS stocks, some love em some hate em. Yes they are heavyish, 6lbs for the 2.0 folder. The weight can be compensated for by using a lighter scope and a lighter barrel contour. That's 2-3 lbs weight savings. A Manners stock with bottom metal, (copied from website) - "MCS-EH4 with an MCS-BDL mini chassis installed, total weight is less than 2 lb., coming in at only 30.8 ounces". That's 1/3 the weight of the AI stock.

I "do not" advise getting a 308 if you want to buy once cry once. 6.5 Creedmoor is a better choice for long range. lighter recoil, less wind drift, less drop, match grade factory ammo available.

 

[EventHorizon]

Thank you everyone for the information. I still have loads to learn sooo here we go.




1. I know looking in the for sale section is hit or miss. When I get the money, how does one set up to buy it?

2. I have seen all the sneak peaks to the hide videos. How Helpful are they?

3. IOTA?

4. I figured .308 would be good to start with for the barrel life and known ballistics.

5. I am very interested in learning more about reloading. I have a Lee press and have been reloading pistol rounds for a bit and find it very enjoyable. I have read and people have told me reloading rifle rounds are more complex. I am very interested in learning all I can about it as the equipment needed, techniques, how to set up a load for a specific rifle set up. I heard about neck sizing is easier/more accurate for one particular bolt rifle. I also would like to know the life of brass and how to prolong it if possible.

6. How do you know?

7. I am in college about to graduate so I am used to saying "adieu" to my bank balance. And money is not an issue for the most part. As stated above I have no trouble waiting and saving for exactly what I want.

Are you asking how you go about buying rifle second hand? If so - find a local FFL, you'll need their details - fax, phone and FFL details for the sellers FFL to be able to ship to yours. factor in the FFL fees. In CA they can be utterly retarded other places, less than $30... In regards to what to buy, just buy something basic, that will get you practicing and enable you to shoot further occassionally than your skill allows (you'll want to do this anyway, regardless as it's fun so long as it's safe...). If you can find a second hand rifle in a standard action like a Remington that's been blueprinted by a good smith then that'd be a good start. Look into the weights of the stock and the barrel for hunting purposes. Ask the seller what they had the rifle for - F-Class, pure prone steel shooting or what. See how it fits with what you want to do. One other thing - get a good trigger - Timney, Jewel etc. That and the optic will have the biggest impact on performance out of the box.

Hide vids are good, so are Rifle Only but the first thing is to get a good class or if you know someone who is a demonstrably good shooter to perhaps teach you. What you want in your class is some one-on-one attention to make corrections as you set-up/shoot, not just someone who stands in front of a class in BDUs and sound/look manly...

Indoor Optical Training Aid. Search I.O.T.A in the search engine here.

Nothing wrong with a .308

If you already know some reloading then you'll be fine. There are a lot of decent vids on YouTube on reloading as well. The sticky section on reloading is good. Read everything Bohem's posted. He's Yoda and Mr. Myagi and backs it up behind the rifle.

You'll know when you know. Not helpful... don't be afraid to experiment and you'll figure it out. The main thing is to be able to get behind your rifle and be relaxed, comfortable and not have to 'muscle' the rifle. This is the path to NPA. Things like cheekweld, length of pull, rear bag etc all come into it. Some people love to tinker, others just like to get to know one set up really well. I'm a gear whore but I've learned that constantly chasing the newest, most expensive toy is a loser's game. Bohem/Gordon made my 6.5CR and that the only rifle I shoot now (except my vintage K-31..). All I've changed on that rifle since it was made was an optic and a rear bag.

Don't get your heart set on something so expensive it takes forever to save up for. Get a decent rifle, a Vortex scope and tons of ammo and head off...

When I started out I did it all ass backwards so now you can learn from my mistakes.

 

[Oldrac]

IH776-
I'm in the same boat, new to PR. I follow the buy once, cry once principle. I want to eliminate all other problems and focus on me. I can work on that by attending training that I can refer to forever. The fewer issues I have to deal with the better off I am. I say this with the caveat of making the decisions based on your financial situation.
Good Luck
Oldrac