Suppressor Application DENIED!!! Something to be aware of.

wjm308

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UPDATE 01/07/2020:
I picked up my TBAC Ultra 5 suppressor yesterday with paperwork (y) So, 15 months after submitting for my suppressor I was finally able to get it. I'm glad I stuck with Silencer Shop, as this probably would have been 24 months had I decided to just cancel and go somewhere else.

UPDATE 12/19/2019:
Check was cashed on 12/07, called BATF this morning and application was APPROVED on 12/17. Based on comments above, looks like it is taking BATF 10 days from time check is cashed to approve. BATF said paperwork is already on its way to my dealer. Merry Christmas to me. What a frustrating road, but to be honest, Silencer Shop was able to get this resolved quicker than I thought they would, we're dealing with a government agency here and I'm shocked they made any concessions to SS!

UPDATE 11/07/2019:
Good news, just got a call from Mark and they have the full instructions from the BATF. Originally the BATF wanted all submissions to have new fingerprints, pictures, etc. but SS was able to negotiate to only new ink signatures to be required. So this is what is happening, the BATF has sent to SS the full instructions along with a "Blue Insert" that will contain all the new forms which must duplicate the original submission (this is very important). SS will be sending the new documents to be ink signed by your dealer to the dealer on record (more on this in a bit), the dealer should contact you to come in and physically sign the re-submittal forms, once you and the dealer have signed the forms the dealer will have instructions on where to ship the signed forms to be expedited. The BATF has told SS that once the checks clear for the re-submittal they will approve within 24 hours, they will then ship out the approved documentation to your dealer.​
A few caveats to this process - the BATF is requiring that the re-submission be EXACTLY like the original submission, but what if you've moved during the time from original submission - BATF said they do not care, the submission must be exactly the same, and if you've moved, once you've been approved you will need to fill out form 5320.20 to submit a change of address to the BATF (you will do this after you receive your suppressor). Also, what if you do not live near your dealer or are not able to visit their shop to sign the documents, then you need to let SS know and they will ship the documents directly to you, you will then sign and ship the documents to your dealer.​
Finally, what if you've asked SS to resubmit your documents already, that is okay, the expedited forms will be different from what you've submitted and those will be approved, your other submittal will stay in the system and when the examiner reviews it they will see the serial number has already been approved and they will discard the submittal.​
In Summary​

  • BATF has approved expedited re-submittals for those who were denied through the Docusign requirements confusion
    • Silencer Shop will be shipping to your dealer the new submission forms to be signed, these should start shipping next week
    • Hand drawn/ink signature is required for both submitter and dealer
    • BATF will approve re-submitted applications within 24 hours of check clearance
ORIGINAL POST:
I am pretty livid right now so trying to hold back some frustration, but I purchased a TBAC Ultra 5 back on 10/01/2018 and have waited almost a year to get it, contacted ATF today and they said on August 22nd my application was DENIED. What on earth, I already own a suppressor so why was it denied, and the ATF agent (Stephen) was informative and let me know that earlier this year the ATF decided they would no longer accept digital signatures from dealers. I told him that my forms were submitted through a Kiosk (Silencer Shop) and he said both the Kiosk company and the dealer should have been aware and had time to rectify the situation; however, they did not and on August 22nd ATF denied my application. I asked if anything could be done and Stephen said unfortunately not, the application has been denied and I will have to submit for the process ALL OVER AGAIN! Ugh, I've waited almost a year for this suppressor and now must wait another year if I hope to get it, I am so frustrated right now. Yes, I'm using this thread to vent a bit, but I'm also hoping that this might help any of you who've used a Kiosk to submit your suppressor paperwork, I would double and triple check with the kiosk company and your dealer to ensure they have submitted a hand written signature and not a digital signature. At this point I'm debating on whether or not I even want to go through the hassle AGAIN and if I should just ask my dealer and Silencer Shop for refunds. If anyone else has encountered this, please let me know if anything was done to help expedite your next order.

UPDATE: I have spoken with Silencer Shop and they are aware of the issue as mine is not the only one that was denied. Here is the information I have gathered so far, earlier this year ATF was accepting Docu-sign signatures as "legal signatures" from dealers but has since made a change saying they no longer accept the docu-sign as a legal signature. It is now the responsibility of the examiner from the ATF to notify the dealer that they need a written signature, my dealer has actually received some of the letters and provided the required signature and approval has happened within days. It appears some examiners have accepted the docu-sign signatures, some have sent out correction letters to dealers asking for a signature, and some have simply denied the application (apparently I got that one :mad:) without sending any correction letter. Silencer Shop is escalating this issue with the ATF and hoping to get a resolution above the examiner level within the next couple weeks. Silencer Shop has advised that if you have an application currently in the system you should not try yourself to get this resolved, their concern is that by contacting them it could raise a red flag in the process and to just be patient and wait.

At this time I am going to keep all my information in the system and hopefully within two weeks Silencer Shop can re-issue the tax stamp and forms and have those of us who've been denied but have waited months already be pushed through quickly. Stay tuned.

UPDATE 09/04/2019: Just to be clear, the issue is with the Class 3 Dealers signature, that is the one the ATF is cracking down on.

UPDATE 09/18/2019:
I spoke with Silencer Shop today - very encouraged with the news. Based on the volume of denials that have come through, the ATF asked Silencer Shop to file a formal appeal which they have done. At this time it is looking very hopeful that the ATF will offer an opportunity for re-submittal of denied requests and we are talking weeks and not months at this time. If you have been denied and you did submit through Silencer Shop I would recommend that you be patient and allow them to work it out with the ATF. Your dealer should have informed Silencer Shop of the denial and, if they have, then you should be on a spreadsheet so that even if Silencer Shop has not received the $200 refund for the tax stamp yet, they will still submit the forms and $200 for the tax stamp even ahead of receiving the refund from ATF (which can take up to 90 days). As the purchaser there is no need to return to a kiosk or worry about the tax stamp, Silencer Shop will be taking care of all of this for you. There is potentially one issue, that is your photos, the ATF requires your photos to be updated annually, so if you submitted your forms more than 12 months ago I'd recommend that you update your photos with Silencer Shop which I believe you can do online here - https://www.silencershop.com/submit-your-photo
 
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2ndamendfan

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The one and only time I let a dealer do the paper work, I was also denied. The dealer misspelled my name, are you shitting me. When I talked to the inspector he said I had to refile but to call him a couple days after and he would find it and move it to the front. I got approval 5 days after refile. This was 4 years ago, and policy might have changed or it could be at the inspectors discretion, but you may want to ask.
 

Supersubes

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Something is fishy. Which signature? Pretty sure everything silencershop does is docusigned. If that were the issue there’d be a tidal wave of denials.
 
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wjm308

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It was the "dealers" signature, but apparently Silencer Shop was taking signatures digitally when I submitted my forms. The ATF agent said it was both Silencer Shop and my dealers responsibility to have rectified the situation.
The one and only time I let a dealer do the paper work, I was also denied. The dealer misspelled my name, are you shitting me. When I talked to the inspector he said I had to refile but to call him a couple days after and he would find it and move it to the front. I got approval 5 days after refile. This was 4 years ago, and policy might have changed or it could be at the inspectors discretion, but you may want to ask.
Thank you, I will definitely check with ATF
 
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missed

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That would suck as I have 3 that should be right around the corner through silencer shop.

I agree with the fishy part this should be a send paperwork back, sign, send back, done. Sounds like you got someone in fuck you Friday mode.
 

chrismartin

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Nothing annoys me more than bureaucrats making up rules as they go. Doubly so when it's pointless paperwork issues. I forgot to sign my Form 4 last year and they kicked it back. I just needed to sign it and send it back. I got my approval in a week. Yet, in this case, they deny it. Just dumb.
 
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bunsen27

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Interesting....I have two pending through Silencer Shop that I docu-signed for.

Have you spoken too either Silencer Shop or your Dealer yet about the situation?
 

wjm308

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Interesting....I have two pending through Silencer Shop that I docu-signed for.

Have you spoken too either Silencer Shop or your Dealer yet about the situation?
Yes, I am in communication with my dealer who says he never received the letter from ATF (but has for other submittals) and when he gets the letter, he signs the Form 4 and sends back and they approve, but they have also approved some of the digital signature versions, so it must depend on "who" you get and unfortunately I got a person who is just simply denying if he doesn't have what he wants instead of giving the dealer a second chance. I have also contacted Silencer Shop and waiting to hear back.
 
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bunsen27

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Yes, I am in communication with my dealer who says he never received the letter from ATF (but has for other submittals) and when he gets the letter, he signs the Form 4 and sends back and they approve, but they have also approved some of the digital signature versions, so it must depend on "who" you get and unfortunately I got a person who is just simply denying if he doesn't have what he wants instead of giving the dealer a second chance. I have also contacted Silencer Shop and waiting to hear back.
Thank you for the update and please keep us posted. I'm sorry to see you going through this arbitrary BATF bureaucratic BS.

I did most of my suppressor buying circa 2012-2013 and have avoided it since due to the hassle.

Silencer Shop was a gamechanger to me and drew me back into buying supressors again with their easy and slick online purchase and Form 4 completion. I hope this is only one BATF's examiner's opinion and not an indicator of BATF changing policy to harm or punish Silencer Shop.
 

Lunchbox27

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    Fuck man... that sucks. I can totally understand your frustrations. Hopefully you can get a "Cut the line" pass.
     
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    woogie_man

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    I have one that is coming up on a year that I did through silencer shop, and the kiosk as well.

    May have to call and make sure everything is still on track. Did you call previously on the submission? I ask as I have called before to check the status and it showed pending....would be as pissed as you are if it gets fucked up this far along
     

    wjm308

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    UPDATE: I have spoken with Silencer Shop and they are aware of the issue as mine is not the only one that was denied. Here is the information I have gathered so far, earlier this year ATF was accepting Docu-sign signatures as "legal signatures" from dealers but has since made a change saying they no longer accept the docu-sign as a legal signature. It is now the responsibility of the examiner from the ATF to notify the dealer that they need a written signature, my dealer has actually received some of the letters and provided the required signature and approval has happened within days. It appears some examiners have accepted the docu-sign signatures, some have sent out correction letters to dealers asking for a signature, and some have simply denied the application (apparently I got that one :mad:) without sending any correction letter. Silencer Shop is escalating this issue with the ATF and hoping to get a resolution above the examiner level within the next couple weeks. Silencer Shop has advised that if you have an application currently in the system you should not try yourself to get this resolved, their concern is that by contacting them it could raise a red flag in the process and to just be patient and wait.
     
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    slayer 2c

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    Lost.........
    Man I'm getting ready to purchase my next one and was looking at a TBAC as well...…...Food for thought for sure!!!
     

    pell1203

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    Is this only affecting items purchased or applications received after the time they changed the policy earlier in 2019 or are they selectively enforcing it on even applications filed prior to year end 2018?
     

    wjm308

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    Is this only affecting items purchased or applications received after the time they changed the policy earlier in 2019 or are they selectively enforcing it on even applications filed prior to year end 2018?
    They are enforcing it on applications prior to year end 2018 (my application was submitted 10/01/2018) and this is where the problem lies - many people submitted Form 4's prior to this new rule, at the time it was perfectly acceptible for dealers to sign the form via docu-sign; however, in 2019 they changed the rule and said no more docu-sign, but instead of grandfathering already existing applications they said all existing applications had to have a hand written signature. Some examiners understand this and are still allowing/approving applications, but some examiners are just denying the application without any warning and once your paperwork is denied it has to start the process all over again (they will not re-look at an application that has been denied). This is what Silencer Shop is trying to resolve with ATF - it is unreasonable for an examiner to simply deny an application because they don't think they have the right signature when the application was submitted with a signature that was acceptable at the time it was submitted.
     

    buffalowinter

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    Time to get your Congressman involved. I fear I may be in the same boat, and I will immediately call my congressman if I'm denied.
     

    bhanley

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    if an application were denied under the above, how would the end user come to be informed? is a letter sent to SS, to the dealer, or to the applicant. Like many others i have several submitted late '18 into '19. before i start calling people and tying them up on the phone, should we worry if we havent received any notification?
     

    woogie_man

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    My check was cashed November 2018, so right in this time frame.

    So do I sit and wait....or call and ask? Dont want to screw myself, but I also want my TBAC before deer season!

    This shit needs to end! If you can get a muffler for your car or bike.....why not for your rifle as well?!?! Thisbis basically the same checks they do for a typical rifle purchase, or a ccw class. Fucking stupid
     

    AK-Twang

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    This thread got me all concerned about my order, so I called Silencer Shop and spoke with the compliance department. They told me that the ATF is no longer accepting Docusign "Signature Font". That's the font that the system auto generates when you type in your name. I'm attaching an example photo. The ATF is still fine with Docusign submissions, if you draw in your signature with your finger, (or any other body part for that mater ;)..... or your mouse.

    Sorry about your trouble wjm308!

    DSAutoSignatureExample.png
     

    Supersubes

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    I’ve got six submissions between mid November and late December 2018, and one in April 2019. Silencershop has a great reputation, and I trust they’ll get it done. Their very existence depends on how this turns out. I’m not going to start blowing up the ATF’s phone just yet. With the quantity of Silencershop applications in the ATF pipeline, both parties have an vested interest is seamlessly resolving this.

    Right now there’s one denial, which is odd because there should be more. The alarm has been sounded, sit tight for a bit.
     
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    Threadcutter308

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    Time to get your Congressman involved. I fear I may be in the same boat, and I will immediately call my congressman if I'm denied.
    You’re quite fortunate. I’m from western Washington. The absolute last thing I want is for any of my “congressmen” or “senators” involved in any of this kind of shit. The further they are from it, the better.

    Hell, I haven’t had decent representation for as long as I can remember. 62 years old, born and raised in W/W.
     
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    GySgt Smith JE

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    Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I'm in the same boat. My application was submitted 12/13/18 and check cashed 1/4/19. I sure hope silencershop works with BATF and comes to an agreement to grandfather in applications that were submitted prior to the stupid rule change.
     

    littlepod

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    This thread got me all concerned about my order, so I called Silencer Shop and spoke with the compliance department. They told me that the ATF is no longer accepting Docusign "Signature Font". That's the font that the system auto generates when you type in your name. I'm attaching an example photo. The ATF is still fine with Docusign submissions, if you draw in your signature with your finger, (or any other body part for that mater ;)..... or your mouse.

    Sorry about your trouble wjm308!

    View attachment 7141601
    +1 I talked to SilencerShop as well. You can pull up your emails and check your completed DocuSign documents to make sure you actually handsigned/"draw" your signature, or if you used the Font. I just pulled mine up and whew, it was hand signed, not the Font signature.
     
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    GySgt Smith JE

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    This thread got me all concerned about my order, so I called Silencer Shop and spoke with the compliance department. They told me that the ATF is no longer accepting Docusign "Signature Font". That's the font that the system auto generates when you type in your name. I'm attaching an example photo. The ATF is still fine with Docusign submissions, if you draw in your signature with your finger, (or any other body part for that mater ;)..... or your mouse.

    Sorry about your trouble wjm308!

    View attachment 7141601
    Thank you for getting some clarification. I honesty have "forgot" about mine (coping mechanism for long wait) and pulled up all my documents to verify mine were "drawn" on and not typed.
     

    ScarlettRed

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    Let me get this straight, the hand signed docusign in question is the buyer's signature and not a signature from silencershop rep? I have several in jail starting in 2019 but recall handsigning every SShop document, ugly as they were.
     

    ShaoKahn

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    You know, there is never an issue with actually cashing the check. For some reason that part of the process is always fully staffed and is completed like clockwork. I’ve never had to call and say, “is there a reason you’re taking so long to cash my check? It’s been over 6 months.” Never happens. They’ve got that part down perfect. Everything after that, not so much. Odd that it works that way.
     

    jcam

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    Sorry you have to go thru this wjm308.
    I docu-signed on Feb 2019 thru Silencershop. I guess I'll just have to sit and wait for that Ultra9.
     

    BootyLord

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    So basically, if you signed with your finger or mouse depending on mobile or desktop, then we are good?
    That was my takeaway. I tried pulling up my docusign documents (3 last October) but they’re expired.. I’m going to call SS tomorrow
     

    AK-Twang

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    So basically, if you signed with your finger or mouse depending on mobile or desktop, then we are good?
    That's what they told me today. They also told me they no longer give you the option when using DocuSign to choose "Signature Font" or "Fonted signatures". You may only hand sign it.
     
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    Jmcmath

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    I have 2 cans sitting since last November all on the kiosk. Appears I “hand” digitally signed it... hoping that’s enough. Since mine were bought entirely through SS and then shipped to my Dealer for jail time I assume SS is the “dealer” in my case? They appear to also have a hand written sig. Man I hope they get this cleared up soon, nauseating idea of getting denied over some stupid shit like this.
     

    chrismartin

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    You know, there is never an issue with actually cashing the check. For some reason that part of the process is always fully staffed and is completed like clockwork. I’ve never had to call and say, “is there a reason you’re taking so long to cash my check? It’s been over 6 months.” Never happens. They’ve got that part down perfect. Everything after that, not so much. Odd that it works that way.
    The Form 4 address and initial check cashing is done by the bank itself. The Forms are then sent to the ATF for processing. So, the initial check cashing always works because it's not the government doing the work.
     
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    stevieb92

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    Wow. I purchased an Ultra 7 in the fall of 2018, then used the Silencershop kiosk at my local dealer for the Form 4 transfer on 12/22/2018. Looking back at my docs which were digitally signed on 1/07/2019 I hand drew my signature (dealer did as well) using the kiosk. ATF cashed my check on 2/05/2019. I hope mine goes through without issue...
     

    wjm308

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    Read through the above posts and I think there is still confusion (will update my original post as well). The issue (as I understand it) is NOT the purchasers signature, it is your Class 3 Dealers signature that is the issue. At least that is the issue in my case, the rule applied to the dealers signature and the examiners are supposed to contact the dealer with a letter asking for a signature before they can sign off on the application; however, some examiners are not sending the letter but simply denying the request. I have been told this is not just mine, but enough people have been affected that Silencer Shop (and I assume others) are escalating this issue within the ATF chain of command.
     

    wjm308

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    This was a known issue months ago. ATF wants a hand drawn signature, not a generated font.
    That is correct, where the confusion comes in is on forms that were submitted prior to this new rule, nobody knows what to do about those? Do dealers preemptively send in a hand drawn signature, do you try and contact the ATF and ask them if they need anything updated. The problem appears to be that some examiners are not sending any notification but simply denying the application without any warning.
     

    HansohnBrothers

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    That is correct, where the confusion comes in is on forms that were submitted prior to this new rule, nobody knows what to do about those? Do dealers preemptively send in a hand drawn signature, do you try and contact the ATF and ask them if they need anything updated. The problem appears to be that some examiners are not sending any notification but simply denying the application without any warning.
    I know SilencerShop hit us up for signatures at the end of last year, not sure how they are handling now since we no longer have a Kiosk. For our customers that purchased directly through us, we have always had a hand drawn signature with our own form 4 Docusign software. We did have a couple customers’ forms returned, not denied, to have their hand drawn signatures.

    Silencer Shop will know if the dealer signed the form 4 properly or not. The dealer should also know since they get a copy of the form 4 as well.
     

    Dutch260

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    Any updates @wjm308 ?

    I'm coming up on 10 months since my check cashed and now I'm not only impatient and sick of waiting but I'm worried as hell that I'll fall victim to the same bullshit from a lazy examiner who doesn't bother reaching out to my dealer for a handwritten/drawn signature. I spoke with my dealer shortly after you started this thread due to these concerns and he said that he has received several requests (20 or so in last month) for a "proper" signature where he simply sent it back and then 2 weeks later it was approved. However he also said that among those was maybe an additional 5 that he never received a request to resubmit a "proper" signature and instead the application was simply denied.

    I'm sure hoping that you and all these other poor souls getting wrongly denied have some sort of recourse or a way to appeal the denial.
     

    wjm308

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    Any updates @wjm308 ?

    I'm coming up on 10 months since my check cashed and now I'm not only impatient and sick of waiting but I'm worried as hell that I'll fall victim to the same bullshit from a lazy examiner who doesn't bother reaching out to my dealer for a handwritten/drawn signature. I spoke with my dealer shortly after you started this thread due to these concerns and he said that he has received several requests (20 or so in last month) for a "proper" signature where he simply sent it back and then 2 weeks later it was approved. However he also said that among those was maybe an additional 5 that he never received a request to resubmit a "proper" signature and instead the application was simply denied.

    I'm sure hoping that you and all these other poor souls getting wrongly denied have some sort of recourse or a way to appeal the denial.
    SilencerShop asked me to wait two weeks to get this sorted out, so I will follow up then. With power, there is always someone who will abuse it.
     

    buffalowinter

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    I used Silencer Shop and filed at a kiosk Nov 27, 2018. Just got a call today that my form 4 was approved and I can p/u my suppressor. Also got an e-mail from Silencer Shop that my other subsequent applications were good to go for the signature.
     

    Dill

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    great, I'm 365 days into a wait and now I read this. What a night mare.
     

    hlee

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    So, I was going to post that I just received my stamps that I applied for in November through silence Shop. But, I looked and my signature was MY signature on the form. It appears that Silencer Shop got this squared away by Thanksgiving (when I purchased) of last year.