Suppressor Application DENIED!!! Something to be aware of.

velvetant

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velvet - you shouldnt have any problems. you are still in line. once ATF gets correction back your application continues forward in current slot. Many people arent as lucky as you, and the examiner just denied it (theres a legal term but i cant think of it at moment).

i talked to mark last friday and i'll echo what tlsmith said above. for those denied SS is working on the appeal. forms would be re-filed, silencershop will send in new $200 (as technically for those denied ATF is sending back original $200, but that can take 90 days).

if the appeal is accepted the concept is that SS would be able to send the application and new monies direct to an examiner, it would go to front of the line, and be processed pretty quickly.

for those affected and following thread - if you call mark and dont catch him, leave just 1 VM. he will get back to you. may take a day or two. they're working hard on it, as they should. flogging people there over this just slows stuff down.
No, I was denied. They didn't send a correction letter.
My dealer made the correction and resubmitted my form the same week with a letter of appeal, he did Said SS paid the $200 to have it done again and also said my application will start from scratch.
So not sure where I stand.
 
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bhanley

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well that does sound unique compared to what others have mentioned to this point. i would get in touch with mark at SS to make sure someone at ATF grabs that application and tucks it under their appeal ( to the extend their appeal has a preference over another appeal). let us know how it turns out.
 

velvetant

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I called and emailed when this happened, never heard back.
Left a message with Mark this time. I know he is swamped, I'll give you all an update when I hear something.
 

velvetant

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Mark called back this morning, they never heard from my dealer. Mark said he would call them and find out details.
So now I'm on the SS list for sure.
That's all I got for now.
 

101stinfantry

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Does anyone know the date that NFA stopped accepting the Docusign signatures? Sounds like most of the denials are coming from the Oct/Nov 2018 timeframe. Any hard dates? Mine was submitted in Feb. of '19.
 
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Chips26

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No, I was denied. They didn't send a correction letter.
My dealer made the correction and resubmitted my form the same week with a letter of appeal, he did Said SS paid the $200 to have it done again and also said my application will start from scratch.
So not sure where I stand.
You saying they are paying for ANOTHER tax stamp for the denial? Or are they covering your original cost of the tax stax. I was under the impression that the stamp was refunded if the application was denied.
 

bhanley

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chips - SS is fronting the $200 on the re-application. when the ATF gets around to refunding the $200 from the first application which was denied, SS will get their money back. the ATF sees them as two separate applications. otherwise, you the customer would have to front a new $200 while you wait to get your first $200back from the ATF.
 
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craigos

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This is why i do it myself using the old fashion way. Too often Silencer Shop has fucked up applications years ago ... no thank you. No Kiosk for me.
 
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Crang

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The last can I got from Silencer Shop had an issue with the paperwork. No one notified me. I called the ATF at the 9 month mark and they let me know they had notified SS. Nothing had been fixed. SS did write a letter to ATF saying it was on them and could they expedite my approval, but ATF did not expedite. Was maybe a 19 month wait for that one.
 

Dutch260

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@wjm308 & @tlsmith22 - Either of you guys heard anything from Mark or SS on the appeal?

Trying not to bother Mark with calls for status so figured I'd see if y'all or anyone else for that matter have heard anything yet. When i last spoke to him (Mark) a week or so ago I believe he was confident that they would be getting a decision on the appeal some time by the end of this week.
 

velvetant

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I talked to Mark yesterday morning.
He said should be within 2 weeks and was pretty confident about the time frame.
He had us submit new photos and is emailing the docusign to double check everything and resign.
He is out of the office until Tuesday.
 

wjm308

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I spoke with Mark yesterday as it had been over two weeks from the last contact and he said this should be resolved in that timeframe; however, he shared it still has not been resolve but they are still hopeful. He also said they are starting to get political support from Cruz and others who are affected which will hopefully help "encourage" the BATF. In the end, I shared my frustration that after doing all this and waiting and waiting and waiting, nothing eventually is done and now I'm out even more months so I asked him to resubmit my application to the BATF with updated info and he is doing that now, if by some miracle the BATF decides to fast track the inappropriately denied requests, he said they can tell them mine is already in process. Who knows if I did the right thing, but it made me very nervous to hear this could go on indefinitely so decided it was best to just re-apply and hope if the BATF does decide to resolve previously denied requests they can pull mine out of the stack and approve it. Time will tell.

One thing I do want to say for those thinking about getting a suppressor, do not let this discourage you, that is exactly what the left wants, they know they can't change laws right now so anything they can do to frustrate gun owners is a victory in their eyes, be encouraged and submit your forms, in fact, I hear wait times are in the 3-4 month timeframe right now so if that is truly the case then maybe I might have my suppressor by next Spring!
 
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Blysccr

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Wonderful. Found out two weeks ago the shop I got 2 previous cans from "can't renew their FFL license". Purchased can 5/15/19. SS found a new local shop and tax stamp cashed 9/15/19. This bs makes it hard to do by the book.
 
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tlsmith22

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I have been trying to call Mark for a week and half and left messages 3 times. I haven’t received a return phone call as of yet. I would say that no news isn’t good news. I’m ready to just send my paperwork back and get the process started over.
 

bhanley

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I have been trying to call Mark for a week and half and left messages 3 times. I haven’t received a return phone call as of yet. I would say that no news isn’t good news. I’m ready to just send my paperwork back and get the process started over.
were you on their email chain that went out about a week ago relating to the protest filed with the ATF, along with info on contacting reps for support (in my case they botched up the rep part - probably pulling from a database incorrectly.). they also mentioned Cruz's support in it.
 

Blysccr

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Update: SS called me last week and clarified as noted in the thread it was the font used for some signatures. The lady I spoke with assured me they were on top of it and did say that more recently submitted forms are going through the process faster. First can was 9 months, last can was a year with their trust and 2 other people on it.
 

Dutch260

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I have been trying to call Mark for a week and half and left messages 3 times. I haven’t received a return phone call as of yet. I would say that no news isn’t good news. I’m ready to just send my paperwork back and get the process started over.
Please let us know if you do hear back from him. I left a voicemail last week to see what the latest was. I'm like you, I don't want to wait around for another couple months for the ATF to dick SS around only for the appeal to get denied and then we are back at the end of the line again anyways. I'd rather just take the beating and resubmit and at least be in the queue again if it looks like this thing isn't going to go through. Wonder what it would take to get in the stack they pull prematurely just to bring down their average wait times on the NFA tracker. ?
 

tlsmith22

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were you on their email chain that went out about a week ago relating to the protest filed with the ATF, along with info on contacting reps for support (in my case they botched up the rep part - probably pulling from a database incorrectly.). they also mentioned Cruz's support in it.
I haven’t gotten an email from them other than to resign my trust forms. No contact in 3 weeks. I feel like i want to just resubmit my paperwork. If they were going to get a resolution in our favor, I feel like they would have by now.
 

tlsmith22

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I did not get that email. I just double checked and also checked my spam folder. Appreciate you posting it.
 

tlsmith22

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If you are part of the Silencer Shop's spreadsheet, I would contact them to make sure they have your correct information.
I am part of it I reckon, at least he told me I was when I talked to him last. I been trying to contact them for a couple of weeks. LOL
 

wjm308

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I am part of it I reckon, at least he told me I was when I talked to him last. I been trying to contact them for a couple of weeks. LOL
That is unfortunate they are not getting back in a timely fashion. I will try to call Mark tomorrow and get an update
 

chrome

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FWIW as another data point, submitted a Form 4 via SS kiosk in March, ATF cashed check in April, called ATF yesterday for an update and it is still pending. I double checked my signature and dealer's signature, both were done with the "finger tip".

Great thread here, thanks for keeping everyone up to date.
 

tlsmith22

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Got an email from Mark today, basically no change from last time I talked to him other than he said several senators and congressman have gotten on board on our side. Hopefully we hear something soon.
 

101stinfantry

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Guys, I feel for you, I do. However, Senators, and Reps being on board don't give me the warm fuzzies. They abdicated their authority to the alphabet agencies long ago.
 

mikesmith13807

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Feb 15, 2019
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This is so much BS. The government passed a law a long time ago about how electronic signatures had to be accepted as equivalent to "wet signatures". We are talking about a government agency--do laws not apply to them?

I had to deal with this nonsense for years in real estate. The law says they have to be accepted, but Fannie Mae (a quasi-government entity) refused to accept them for a long time before they finally relented. Friggin' bureaucrats....!!!!! ?

ETA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Global_and_National_Commerce_Act


(1) a signature, contract, or other record relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because it is in electronic form; and(2) a contract relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because an electronic signature or electronic record was used in its formation.
 
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VanJoe

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This is so much BS. The government passed a law a long time ago about how electronic signatures had to be accepted as equivalent to "wet signatures". We are talking about a government agency--do laws not apply to them?

I had to deal with this nonsense for years in real estate. The law says they have to be accepted, but Fannie Mae (a quasi-government entity) refused to accept them for a long time before they finally relented. Friggin' bureaucrats....!!!!! ?

ETA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Global_and_National_Commerce_Act


(1) a signature, contract, or other record relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because it is in electronic form; and(2) a contract relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because an electronic signature or electronic record was used in its formation.
Is typing with a cursive font the same as a signature?
 

wjm308

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Is typing with a cursive font the same as a signature?
I believe this was the gist of the issue, BATF had been accepting "font" signatures, but decided it had to be drawn, still uses the same technology but changed the requirements of what was acceptable. I left a message for Mark today, hopefully he'll get back.
 
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Throwaway118

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I believe this was the gist of the issue, BATF had been accepting "font" signatures, but decided it had to be drawn, still uses the same technology but changed the requirements of what was acceptable. I left a message for Mark today, hopefully he'll get back.
Have you heard anything back? I’ve tried multiple times this week.

At this point, I’m honestly considering cancelling the order and going thru another dealer for the same suppressor. Yes, I might screw myself with time, but hear me out.

Silencer Shop has yet to really take responsibility for this screw up. If you read the appeal, they knew last year font signatures, regardless of the legality, would not be accepted by the ATF. While they did take action to limit some font signatures, they did not put quality control measures in place at the time, which is why all these apps have been rejected. The ATF was sending correction letters, but if an examiner is juggling an overload pile of applications and then has to manage incorrect forms, I can say I blame them too much for taking the half assed approach and rejecting everything. The inspectors are overworked which is why many of us waited over a year for an approval. It’s a BS reason, but you can’t exactly blame them for refusing to fix someone else’s massive failure.

Silencer Shop is the last line of defense for quality control. They are the ones that ship the application and supporting material out the door. So any wrong application falls on them.

All with this, Silencer Shop has decided keeping their customers informed is not a priority. Outside a single email requesting customers write to their senators, SS has not been communicating with their customers. We are expected to call in to get updates. When we do speak with them, we hear “two weeks”. They stated in early September everything would be resolved in two weeks. Hell, they didn’t file in appeal until October.

Which let’s be honest, if the appeal was going as well as they claim, why would they be asking for help with political pressure?

Here’s what chaps me. The two week narrative sounds familiar, right? Remember the eForm1 failure? They kept stating everything would be back online in a matter of weeks... it’s now been down nearly a year. They claimed it was weeks away in the spring.

For me, Silencer Shop has no trust left. For me, I think it is time to cancel and cut ties with Silencer Shop. I’ve been burnt too many times on half baked promises. I think it’s time to decide, cancel and go to the back of the line with another dealer or wait it out with them and, I believe, likely end up at the back as well, but likely months delayed as we waited for this appeal.
 
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Throwaway118

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I'm sure some of you have seen this, but maybe some of you haven't. If true it doesn't make SS look good at all. https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/d9pjs6
Silencer Shop addresses some of this in their appeal but they don’t do a great job providing a timeline which would match above. The appeal is located here for those that haven’t seen it.


The problem I have in the process surrounds their quality assurance. After the application is signed, it goes to their compliance department to review every i is dotted and t is crossed. If SS was aware of the issue as they claim, why was this not a quality assurance check before the application went out the door?

Silencer Shop has never addressed this, nor do I expect them to. They aren’t great about owning mistakes and explaining where they screwed up. A sorry here or there, but an outright ownership of a mistake? Haven’t seen it. Easier to blame the ATF.
 

velvetant

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My dealer made corrections and resubmitted my application the same week they got the denial, that was a little over a month already.
So when the appeal is denied I've already got a jump on things.
 

rlarsen462

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Placed an order yesterday and did my Docusigns today, when I spoke to SS I made sure they confirmed the issue was corrected (frankly sounds like it was fixed last year), but I definitely don't like reading how poorly they handled this situation...given that some other issue could be brewing in the background with how the ATF seems to occasionally make things up as they go long. Not good if they aren't going to focus on getting things right for the guys that got screwed by this one.
 

wjm308

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I do not know the total number of applications affected by this, but I've also understood this is not just a Silencer Shop issue, that this affected other applications as well. My dealer encouraged me to use the Silencer Shop kiosk because one was near me and he is about a 2 hour drive away, in hindsight I wish I hadn't but we are always wiser (or ought to be) in hind sight. I was very tempted to cancel everything and just place my order with another dealer, but I could not find another dealer local to me.

I have heard from SS and every time they are "confident" this will happen and these forms will be expedited, but similar to the above I have my reservations as this is a government organization. This is why I requested SS re-submit my forms and on 10/26 I received notification that BATF has cashed the check. If by some miracle the BATF decides to expedite denied applications I have been told they (SS) will inform BATF that mine is already back in process, and if they drag their feet or never expedite then I hope it will be approved in a timely manner, I was told possibly 6 months in September but am figuring it will take at least 9-12 months.
 

101stinfantry

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I'm really, really surprised I haven't heard more about this on the interwebs. You actually have to look for it to find it.
As we all know when the ATF can make up the rules as they go along, it makes for a very hard game to play.
 

Throwaway118

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I'm really, really surprised I haven't heard more about this on the interwebs. You actually have to look for it to find it.
As we all know when the ATF can make up the rules as they go along, it makes for a very hard game to play.
I think this might be a function of Silencer Shop convincing everyone that the ATF is at fault for this entire screw up. They’ve further pushed the theory that is is a rogue inspector or two, not every inspector. If this is true, it could mean the impact volumes are low.

Another theory, people aren’t finding out until the call the ATF. The dealers have been told that Silencer Shop will handle everything, so as soon as a reject comes into the dealer, they send it over to SS and the customer never knows unless SS calls them. I’ve seen SS claim on other boards they are calling everyone, but I believe this is suspect. Take a look at the individuals that have stated they got rejected. No one has said they found out from SS. Everyone that has found out has found out by calling the ATF.

It makes it easier for SS to say “The ATF screwed you, but as soon as we found out, we took care of it” after their is a solution already in place. And many individuals aren’t calling the ATF as they see applications are taking over a year.
 
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tlsmith22

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I guess everyone got the email today that the appeal was approved and we will hopefully find out the details of the appeal middle of next week. I sure hope this goes well. I feel Mark has worked diligently to get this pushed thru.
 

tlsmith22

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I am one of those people also. I have resubmitted already. Mark seemed to think we would be ok, may just take a little longer to get pulled back into the appeal.
 

BBVDD

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I bought two through a Silencer shop kiosk in the middle of October of last year.

They actually went through. Took 292 days but they went through.

Docusign and all.
 

Dutch260

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Anybody heard any further updates regarding the details of the appeal? I've been painstakingly waiting until tomorrow (post mid-week lol) to call Mark/SS and get some information. For whatever reason I was left off the last bulk email regarding the Appeal Update but was able to get it second hand from @tlsmith22 (thanks again mate!) thankfully. So at the moment i'm simply succumbing to my impatience in hopes y'all have heard something I haven't.
 

bhanley

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dutch - i was left off the appeal update email as well, though i had been on the lobbying emails others had not received. hopefully theyll iron out the spreadsheet theyre working from. like you, im holding off a couple extra days to so if an update comes out (maybe i'll get that email. . . )
 

wjm308

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I'm honestly shocked that BATF caved and is going to address the denied applications. Hopefully it's not too much of a hassle for them to pull my re-submission for quick approval.