Suppressors Supressor research

[mcimma]

Re: Supressor research

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to confuse the issue, but apparently we are also looking at suppressors for the M4's.

Any opinions there. QD I would assume is ok there. </div></div>

I just got a Yankee Hill Machine QD Suppressor for my Stag. Very easy on/off and it doesnt seem to change my poi at all. The only complaint is from the other operators on my team when I shoot w/o it attached. They say it's fucking loud and a little distracting!!

 

[mcimma]

Re: Supressor research

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of M4s do you have (barrel length)?</div></div>

Colt with 11.5 inch barrels. Select fire with 3 rd burst. Primarily entry guns so ca length is inportant. </div></div>

Different per operator because we are a regional unit...I run an 11.5 inch semi-auto Stag with Yankee Hill Suppressor (occassionally), Aimpoint Compt M2 and Yankee Hill front & rear buis...

 

[stefan73]

Re: Supressor research

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mcimma</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to confuse the issue, but apparently we are also looking at suppressors for the M4's.

Any opinions there. QD I would assume is ok there. </div></div>

I just got a Yankee Hill Machine QD Suppressor for my Stag. Very easy on/off and it doesnt seem to change my poi at all. The only complaint is from the other operators on my team when I shoot w/o it attached. They say it's fucking loud and a little distracting!!

</div></div>

I had a Gemtech on my M4 and noticed it was rather nose heavy. It was fun to shoot and had previously had a baffle strike that I could see (it was a hand me down in theater). Other then the appearence it seemed to function pretty well.

I'm guessing from your post that you like your Yankee Hill suppressor. How is it in comparison to other suppressors if you have any experience?

 

[mcimma]

Re: Supressor research

Stefan, I dont have anything else to compare it too...Its my first!!

 

[stefan73]

Re: Supressor research

I'm trying to convince myself to get one!!!

My biggest hang up is that I move every 2-3 years and when I looked at the ATF site about the laws reguarding suppressors it read like Greek to me. I just really need to fully understand what I would be getting myself into if I purchased one vs hoping that I am doing the right thing since my ability to support my family relies on it.

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Supressor research

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm trying to convince myself to get one!!!

My biggest hang up is that I move every 2-3 years and when I looked at the ATF site about the laws reguarding suppressors it read like Greek to me. I just really need to fully understand what I would be getting myself into if I purchased one vs hoping that I am doing the right thing since my ability to support my family relies on it. </div></div>

If I am not mistaken they allow transfers, just more promised paperwork.

 

[bohem]

Re: Supressor research

If you buy one now and you're in a suppressor friendly state, then move to a non-compliant state you cannot take it with you, nothing strange there.

However, you don't need to transfer anything, you simply fill out the 5320.20 form, file it with the ATF, tell them that you want to lock the suppressor up in a safe that only you have access to in a compliant location and you're OK. I have a friend who's been transfered to CA, he has all of his Title 2 items locked in a safe in TN at his parents' residence.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Supressor research

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you buy one now and you're in a suppressor friendly state, then move to a non-compliant state you cannot take it with you, nothing strange there.

However, you don't need to transfer anything, you simply fill out the 5320.20 form, file it with the ATF, tell them that you want to lock the suppressor up in a safe that only you have access to in a compliant location and you're OK. I have a friend who's been transfered to CA, he has all of his Title 2 items locked in a safe in TN at his parents' residence. </div></div>

That works for me!

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Supressor research

Frank,
I look for facts, not valadation of my decision.
Why the sarcasm? Twenty rounds is just that, no more, no less. I just stated facts, as I found them. If the suppressor had blown up or moved the bullet 5 feet left, I would have stated that as well.
I am still not sure I like it. When I shoot it more, I will come back and post as well. Also, I am not interested in how much everyone elses POI shifts, only mine. I am not here to vindicate KAC or anyone else. I do not have access to 50 suppressor systems, but try to add my limited expirences to the general body of knowledge. I thought that was what the site was for. I think that as a group, we know more than any one of us. I would think twice before buying a KAC suppressor, due to the comments on here, but have had no trouble so far.
I am also going to try putting a rubber O ring between the suppressor and the gas block to give more consistancy. I will also report on that.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Supressor research

So far, I have not found an O ring with small enough "bulk" but enought span to work. Still looking.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Supressor research

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,
I look for facts, not valadation of my decision.
Why the sarcasm? Twenty rounds is just that, no more, no less. I just stated facts, as I found them. If the suppressor had blown up or moved the bullet 5 feet left, I would have stated that as well.
I am still not sure I like it. When I shoot it more, I will come back and post as well. Also, I am not interested in how much everyone elses POI shifts, only mine. I am not here to vindicate KAC or anyone else. I do not have access to 50 suppressor systems, but try to add my limited expirences to the general body of knowledge. I thought that was what the site was for. I think that as a group, we know more than any one of us. I would think twice before buying a KAC suppressor, due to the comments on here, but have had no trouble so far.
I am also going to try putting a rubber O ring between the suppressor and the gas block to give more consistancy. I will also report on that.
</div></div>

Was I supposed to reply to this ?

Because I can't honestly think of anything to say other than, okay... if it works for you drive on -- the point of the site is to pass on information. But if your information is of a limited quantity I would say, drop it and leave, attempting to celebrate it as something more than a tiny sampling can be described as one of the problems with the internet. One person cheerleading their personal results based on 20 shots is hardly worth repeating.

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: Supressor research

I've shot alot of KAC cans and though not even close to my favorite, I would use them over not using one at all.
I am a fan of SureFire cans. I'm currently running a mini on my LT 16" DMR. I can shoot inside without ears if need be. It's light and short. Easy to take on and off. I've always had good luck with SureFire products.

 

[300ATT]

Re: Supressor research

Folks,

I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to read this banter back and forth - especially since on Black Friday I found myself at a local Class 3 dealer, money rich and suppressor poor. I have several precision rifles and was at the counter trying to make my first suppressor purchase hoping to find a can that I could move between several precision rifles w/similar threads in .223, 6.5 and .308 calibers. I held the Thunderbeast, SF, AAC, AWC etc ... What do I buy?

Do you buy a .338 can for .308 and .300WM for the added volume and supposed better suppression?

A .30 can is supposed to work really well for 6.5 - does it?

How about using a .308 can for a .223? - Does that work?

Do you buy a lightweight Ti thread on? The guy behind the counter said that thread-ons DO cross thread (esp. with the carbon buildup) and that it is too much of a hassle to move them from gun to gun - comments?

SF is the most expensive but according the guy behind the counter has the best warranty (life time no questions asked including a baffle strike). - comments?

What about accuracy? - like some of the members here, I am a little OCD and would really struggle to turn a 1/4 MOA gun into a 1 MOA gun by screwing a can on the end of the barrel (but I can deal w/ a consistent POI shift). The guy behind the counter said that Thunderbeast was very accurate as "it generated a lot of internal turbulence but does not suppress as well as the others." He added that SF claimed their cans to be very accurate including improving accuracy and 0 POI shift (brochure showed a .223 target - probably 50 yds. as Lowlight commented). His opinion was that the SF cans were as accurate as the single point threaded cans. - comments?

He recommended the SF QD system as the way to go to move a can between several precision rifles. At that moment, I realized that all my experience (several thousand rounds behind an H&K MP5SD) was useless and that I needed to do A LOT more research. I left a little dejected, so much so I turned around went back to the store and bought a "junker" S&W chrome lined AR-15 upper to shoot the crates of Norinco ammo I have laying around - still dejected.

I left convinced that I needed to rework the muzzles of several precision rifles to add the SF break/adapter like the GAP FBI HRT rifle and then go get a .30 cal SF can. After reading this thread I go full circle back to the thread-on approach ...

I really love this site ... Your comments and experiences are wonderful and greatly appreciated.

 

[banks74]

Re: Supressor research

.300 AT&T,

I have shot a decent amount with my Thunderbeast single point threaded can. I have never had a problem cross threading it. I take it on and off a lot for storage etc, and I swap it between rifles. I have a toothbrush I run across the threads of my rifles to clean them off occasionally, and a nylon bore brush I use on the threads of the can.
I would not hesitate to to buy a single point can, in fact I prefer it over a QD.

I had no loss of accuracy with my can, and POI shift was minimal and repeatable.

The Thunderbeast 30P-1 has very good suppression. I have heard it shot along with several other manufactures. In my opinion of the cans I heard the Thunderbeast and the Shark were the quietest to my ear and had the most pleasant tone.

Anyways if you ever make it up north and want to shoot at Pawnee, you can shoot my Thunderbeast can and decide for yourself.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Supressor research

Try to hear many cans as you possibly can. Talk to people and read up on as many suppressors on the market. Don't take the word of someone behind the counter trying to push a product. But then again, you have to take the word of some of the owners with a grain of salt too. A lot of people have money into X brand suppressor and would be hard pressed to say anything about it since they dropped so much money down on something that has horrible resale value.

There are a couple of things people look for in a suppressor when making up their decision:

Cost - Might not be the deciding factor in some as some people want to get it right the first time and don't mind paying extra for what they want.

Materials - Some companies choose to use certain materials to cut down cost. That plays at lot into the weight and cost of a suppressor.

Construction - How well does it look like it's put together? How is the internals constructed. Some suppressors it might not matter much, but on centerfire cans it does.

Weight - Important for some, not so much for others. Some people don't mind a 2lb brick at the end of their barrels. Some people like it light.

Length added - on some guns it might not matter much, but on some guns it does. Swinging around a AR15 with a 2 foot suppressor would really suck!

Attachment Method - single point (screw on) or FA suppressor. All my cans are screw on, and never once have a cross threaded a can. If it's threaded correctly, how would carbon get into the threads?

Finish - not just the nice and even paint, how are the welds, are the clean, does the color match?

Warranty/Customer Service - does the company have a good reputation? I could name of several instances of some of people I know not getting their cans warranted after sending one out the side of the can. And I know of several big name manufacturers totally replacing the suppressor at no cost to the customer.

Sound - some people might think a meter is the end all be all when choosing a suppressor. It's not, and the meter doesn't measure for duration, tone, attenuation and several other factors that make up what you hear when shooting a suppressor. I am pretty sure others can provide a more technical explanation of this.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Supressor research

..

Damn, exactly!

I'll remove the "maker" below.

<span style="font-weight: bold">"We at XXXX, do consider data produced by our meters, but we are more interested in how the device sounds in actual use as perceived by the parties who use them. The sound meter's opinion is considered, but it doesn't get the final word on what we build. XXXX maintains extremely close contact with our clients, more so than any other suppressor company over the last 30 years. We rely on our own and our clients experience, intelligence and field requirements for the final design attributes. As a result, the bottom line is that we build the strongest, most compact, and highly effective units on planet Earth, and the vast majority of our customers remain with us for their lifetimes.

We strive to design our suppressors so that the shot fired sounds "unlike" or "not characteristic" of firearm noise. We are aware of several units produced by other companies that do, according to the meter, produce less noise than our device of similar nature. However, when these devices are compared in real world live fire tests our devices are noticeably more pleasant to the human ear. Several well known silencer aficionados have observed these tests and agree with our attitude toward the decibel. They say our suppressors have the "sweet sound".

If you still need more proof, consider this. A good example of this "deception" is the comparison of sound between a .308 caliber rifle and a .300 WIN MAG rifle. The meter will tell us that both rifles produce the same decibel level of noise. Upon firing these rifles, however, all would agree that the .300 WIN MAG sounds much louder. What the decibel meter doesn't tell us is that although both rifles produce the same peak sound pressure level (SPL), the .300 WIN MAG holds its peak duration longer. In other words the .300 WIN MAG sound remains at full value longer and IS louder while the .308 goes to peak and falls off more quickly. dB meters fail in this, and other regards.

Our experience has been that a few unprincipled manufacturers have published false data in order to appear "competitive. We have seen instances of an 8 year old suppressor from one manufacturer being tested against a can so new, that the firm hasn't figured out how to manufacture it yet in quantity. In short, if you're being told that the main selling point of a suppressor is its decibel readings, beware! We, at XXXX have gotten our balance on the issue of dB metering and we believe that you, the client, hopefully our client, will serve yourself well by following our lead on this topic."</span>

I would ad the following:

1. Add the muzzle break weight back into the can when determining if QD is actually less weight on your barrel. Thread on is always lighter and, with the right design, shorter. That QD break that sticks into your can does nothing for suppression and takes up extremely precious real estate. In the vast majority on QD designs, the required tolerance slop in QD require the pathway to be much more "forgiving" that equates to a louder blast signature and is the principle cause of megaphone effect.

2. For many, if your seeing welds, an operation was left out. For them, craftsmanship means no visible weld or tack "dimples." Some makers have fewef "external welds" as their envelopes are milled out of solid stock to get the wall thickness required. Also, its the welding that you can't "see" that are the most critical, especially in titanium cans. Heat cycle embrittlement, a very real consequence in heavy/FA Ti cans can be resolved with deep penetration baffle to envelope welds. But that requires a tube of particular thickness. Many cans use surface welding on the baffle/tube that are surface only and failure will occur through heat cycles.

3. Exterior coatings matter. To last through high heat cycles they need to be the best material and baked on right properly prepared surfaces. Ask and if the person behind the counter doesn't know, read.

4. Come cans are low pressure cans, some high pressure...hopefully by design. Know the difference and the right application for either.

5. The newest baffle designs account for entrapment and provide for "front purging" of debris. You do not need nor do you want a centerfire can that opens. Tolerances are different between a sealed can and a crack can. Therefor, select a can that moves material out the muzzle by design.

6. Hot Spots, more here than a simple balanced pathing argument. For cans that can take 100 rounds in under 2 mins the chamber work requires stripping off the worst gas jet heat early and dealing with it. Hot Spoting, as reveal by thermal imaging, is only telling you part of the design story. For a bolt gun with low cycle rate balanced flow is the least expensive proper way to design a can. That same design will not provide either maximum aural suppression or flash suppression in precision FA designs that will see massive heat soak. New diffuser, primary baffle, secondary pathway, material, material welding and envelope heat sinking is required. Heat load is not balanced by design and broad surface mirage generation is delayed and, when soaking finally occurs, dissipated at much high rates. In short, flat surface vs heat sink.

 

[300ATT]

Re: Supressor research

RollingThunder51,

Very interesting. I was at a precision rifle class and one of the participants showed up with an AIAW in .308 with a AAC Titan-QD suppressor for .338 caliber. The owner claimed that the .338 can had more volume which made it quieter, improved the accuracy of the rifle .... and so on. I don't know if any of that is true; however, what I found most impressive was that it did not sound anything like a suppressed gun. It was more of a long sustained hiss every time he sent one down-range.

I must say it put a smile on everyone's face.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Supressor research

..

You should hear it on a properly prepared .308 XL can! One more baffle, one more chamber, tighter bore. Instead of your 8.4" where so much precious real estate is used by QD doing zero, it all gets done in 100% titanium in 9.2" can, ALL the volume used for capture!

pppffffftttttshhhhhhhhhhhhh.


..

 

[McCoy]

Re: Supressor research

Can anyone make a suggestion for use on a 16" ARPerformance med contour 6.8spc, I would also like to use it on my 308 Tikka bolt gun.

Gun will be used to Hogs/Varmits on the 6.8 and the bolt gun for same + LR shooting.

Price is a factor but I also want something with minimal POI shift.

Any problems associated with moving between a bolt gun vs a semi auto as well as the caliber differences?

 

[Bubb]

Re: Supressor research

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For a precision rifle, not a duty carbine, I know very few who would suggest a QD attachment. The repeatability from my experience and several others who I've spoken to in depth about it (including a lot of testing on my part with a friend's setup) indicates that the threaded attachment is going to give you the best repeatability.

The suppressors that I've worked with have mild POI shifts but for a good can that is properly attached to the rifle the POI shift is repeatable each time.

With a multi-lead attachment thread on the QD's you don't always get that, even with the indexing marks on the can body being used as a reference.

A relatively small POI shift is not a problem as long as it's repeatable and can be verified through testing to be repeatable. With a properly threaded barrel nose I have yet to see a well built can that won't repeat each time. The QD that I worked a lot with on AAC's 7.62 was not always repeatable when we worked it on the same indexing number. When the indexing number was ignored and the can was simply installed and shot the POI shift was totally unreliable.

You should not be relying upon the threads to center/align the suppressor to the bore. I really like the aft end cap to have a conic section so that I can use the taper to center and align the suppressor body to the bore. This means that the threads only provide a the preload path for tension to hold the can in place, the conic section is the indexing surface. Note also that I use the term "indexing surface" not "indexing line". A conic surface will allow you to resolve the rotational moments of the can trying to move separately from the barrel during firing.

So far I've worked with:

Several of my own designs on Form 1's with several mounting configurations. I settled on threaded attachments with a conic portion to act as an abutment surface that the suppressor indexes from.

1) AAC's 7.62 SD (owned by a friend)
2) Gemtech Sandstorm (owned by a friend)
3) Wells Custom Gunmakers 0.30c (I purchased one of these)
4) Shark's TigerShark (owned by a friend)

I would have no problem buying anything of the 2, 3, 4 cans however the #3 Wells can was within my means financially and the only thing that it lacks compared to the Sandstorm or the TigerShark is that it's made from SS instead of Ti. Weight would be the only trade off there and I can't justify the difference in price to myself for a few ounces of weight reduction. Barrel harmonics are important but knowing what is happening allows the user to tune the behavior anyway you slice it.

I don't doubt that the Surefires will work too, but for a precision rifle I would strongly suggest AGAINST the Q/D mounts.

Some people to call and discuss this topic with would be:

Tom Sarver of Thunder Valley Precision (Shark Dealer)
Dave Wells of Wells Custom Gunmakers

Tom is especially knowledgeable about the behavior of several different suppressors on precision rifles at long ranges. I've seen him use his 260 Rem out past 1600yards with the TigerShark on there and it's an exceptional package.

Dave is a very good guy to talk to and will take the time to explain things in detail if you're interested. I know that Dave is currently working to supply his local PD's department with suppressors for their DM shooters.



</div></div> Wells custom gun makers if he's out of Pa stay away!!!! I bought a gun from him and it was the worst experience I ever had. Never shot right, bolt stuck (factory ammo) didn't flut barrel... His two week promise build took well over a YEAR. I have NO respect for this man. Stay away!

 

[Longshot38]

Re: Supressor research

I might also give Mike at Tac Ops a call. I have had one of his suppressors and they are top notch. Tac Ops makes a hell of product that they stand behind. You may have to shell out some cash for their products but it is money well spent.

 

[mike1128]

Re: Supressor research

My TacOps can has been (knock on wood) consistent with POI shift. I've even heard of Mikes cans as well as others that require no shifting at all. But mine has been really consistent. Guys at the range have told me they are surprized how quiet it is for such a small can.