- Thread starter jasonk
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Why? I'm not surprised at all. Their BC is significantly lower than some other options.
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Hornady 105 BC .530
Berger Hybrid 105 BC .547
Maybe I am just cheap but I will give up the .017 for $10 per box. But then again I am not a pro and never will be.
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I've ran 105 Berger Hybrids and 105 Hornady HPBTs and the dope was within .1 mil elevation and about the same with wind (according to the software on the wind). The extra $12-15 per 100 for the Bergers isn't worth it to me. Also the Bergers are quite a bit longer than the HPBTs so when I seat a Hybrid to mag length, it pushes it into the case a lot further than a HPBT. I can get more powder in a case with the HPBT vs the Hybrid.
What magazine do you use (and what case for that matter)? 6XC and 6x47 have plenty of length left over even if you seat them long.
I'm running .243 and standard AI mags (front plate still in). The Bergers are a good bit longer than the Hornadys.
Aha, that explains it. thanks.
I'm new to this game, so maybe you're right. I just know if it's a 10 round stage, I'd like to know 3 or so rounds in (maybe during a transition) if I'm on pace. My recent experience has been that I'm running out of time and not getting all my shots off. I think having a timer ticking down in view might help.
Edit: And I've seen people calling for time, asking how much is left. Seems more efficient to just look at your own timer than to have to ask someone else, and then listen for a response.
Hits are what counts so just worry about that. Think about the time you are wasting looking at a watch or clock that could be time getting another shot in. You will learn to get a feeling of time. If you only get 5 shots off then make sure they hit. 10 fast misses are still misses.
Yeah you have to allot your time to your strengths. Its tough to do sometimes to take those two offhand shots fast to move on to shots you know you could make but sometimes it works out better as you aren't working so hard and concentrating on the offhand and you break the shot on target and hit. Sometimes when you work to hard the reticle will dance all over.
Practice against a clock! Focus on your shooting when you compete. I try to take out as many things as possible that I have to think about, so I can focus on the primary task of making hits.
I have seen way to many shooters waste time calling for time checks. 99% stop aquiring targets, adjusting position and shooting while chasing a time check
Best thing is to focus on shooting during match and maybe practice with a tight par time set on timet
Best thing is to focus on shooting during match and maybe practice with a tight par time set on timet
These guys and most people in this thread would shit a brick if an "old antique" 308 showed up and smoked their ass. I can already hear the whining. There are plenty shooters out there that can do it. For half the cost these guys have in their rigs. These 6mm's and 6.5's are just a fad. The only reason they are dominating right now is because more people are using them. If you took 19 6mm's and 1 308, of course the 6mm's are going to win. If you took 19 308's and 1 6mm, my money is on the 308's winning the match. See how odds work?
I don't think you have a clue.
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This thread just got awesome. There are a number of matches you may attend to prove us wrong. Feel free. I think the last match I shot there were at least 10 308s out of 25ish, maybe more. I think the end scoring went something like: 6, 6.5, 6, 6.5, 6.5, 6,...................................308,308,308,308,308. My buddy was shooting his 308 and wind holds in the same string of fire varied 2.25-3 mils while the rest of us held less than 1 and variances around .1-2 at most. Now if he ramps up to 208s in that gun he won't have as big of wind challenges, but... why not just shoot a "fad" caliber at that point?
[MENTION=52724]tylerw02[/MENTION] oorrrrrr, im just not as quick to jump on the bandwagon?
6mm and 6.5's are indeed great calibers, but to call a 308 basically "worthless" when it comes to long range comps is a bit of a stretch. Put a seasoned shooter behind that 308. A shooter who only shoots a 308. Not a guy who bounces from rifle to rifle. Its not all about the caliber. Shooter comes first. Then equip/caliber. Before this thread, if someone wouldve said "Many pros use Vortex over Nighforce and Leupold." I bet you wouldve replied "You havent got a clue.". Im just waiting for a good shooter with a tac driving 25-06 to come around and watch everybody flock to that caliber next. That will be hilarious.
Its important to have an open mind. Nothing in this world is black and white. Except death. You can bet on that.
[MENTION=66141]Supergyro[/MENTION] I should. I could. I would. But right now i gotta go wrestle this alligator. Lol
6mm and 6.5's are indeed great calibers, but to call a 308 basically "worthless" when it comes to long range comps is a bit of a stretch. Put a seasoned shooter behind that 308. A shooter who only shoots a 308. Not a guy who bounces from rifle to rifle. Its not all about the caliber. Shooter comes first. Then equip/caliber. Before this thread, if someone wouldve said "Many pros use Vortex over Nighforce and Leupold." I bet you wouldve replied "You havent got a clue.". Im just waiting for a good shooter with a tac driving 25-06 to come around and watch everybody flock to that caliber next. That will be hilarious.
Its important to have an open mind. Nothing in this world is black and white. Except death. You can bet on that.
[MENTION=66141]Supergyro[/MENTION] I should. I could. I would. But right now i gotta go wrestle this alligator. Lol
Who said worthless?
What bandwagon? Common sense?
.25-06? Most guys don't care for limited high-BC bullet supply or long-action cartridges because of a longer bolt-throw. Notice nobody shoots .300 and .338?
You put two equal shooters on the line---one with a .308 and the other with a .243 , have him shoot the same course of fire, the .243 will hit more targets in the same period of time.
Back to the point;
You haven't got a clue.
How many of these style matches have you ever participated?
You really haven't for a clue.
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What bandwagon? Common sense?
.25-06? Most guys don't care for limited high-BC bullet supply or long-action cartridges because of a longer bolt-throw. Notice nobody shoots .300 and .338?
You put two equal shooters on the line---one with a .308 and the other with a .243 , have him shoot the same course of fire, the .243 will hit more targets in the same period of time.
Back to the point;
You haven't got a clue.
How many of these style matches have you ever participated?
You really haven't for a clue.
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There are a few who can but when competing at the top level with there equals they are at a disadvantage. After nils jonasson won single stack nationals again, we were shooting a steel match the next week and he shot a plain jane stock mil-spec 1911 and he still won the match. But, he was not shooting against the top shooters in the world that night either. He takes every advantage he can at big matches. Same with how almost all 1911 competitors now use the 40s&w instead of 45. People fought it for years then pretty much everyone gave in.
Just so you know that "bandwagon" started back around 2005 when people started going away from the .308. Not anything new.
If you feel the .308 is competitive then go out and prove it.
Just read through this thread lol for the "308 isnt up to par" comments. A lot of shooters dont shoot 300's or 338's due to the high recoil effecting consistent shooting. If you notice, all these "target" calibers have zero to no recoil. You should know this, great one. But yes, being a long cartridge has a lot to do with it. But you missed the fact I was using it as an example.
Is your 308 vs 243 test a proven fact? Does the 243 win 100% of the time? Is it in Chapter 1 of "Tylers Shooting Facts" handbook? Anybody that isnt a total noob at shooting will tell you nothing is guaranteed when shooting. Especially when comparing 2 different calibers. The 243 will win sometimes. And the 308 will win sometimes. Just how knowledgeable are you? Is most of your knowledge forum reading?
Please post pictures of you with all your shooting medals/trophies/championships. Place 1 shoe on your head so we know its for real. Then Ill respect your "facts" a little more. Until then, your opinion is no more valuable than mine.
Is your 308 vs 243 test a proven fact? Does the 243 win 100% of the time? Is it in Chapter 1 of "Tylers Shooting Facts" handbook? Anybody that isnt a total noob at shooting will tell you nothing is guaranteed when shooting. Especially when comparing 2 different calibers. The 243 will win sometimes. And the 308 will win sometimes. Just how knowledgeable are you? Is most of your knowledge forum reading?
Please post pictures of you with all your shooting medals/trophies/championships. Place 1 shoe on your head so we know its for real. Then Ill respect your "facts" a little more. Until then, your opinion is no more valuable than mine.
In other words, you have no leg to stand on, so you attack the messenger. The numbers aren't on your side. By the way, I've shot lots of matches with lots of members here. Notice, you dodged the question about YOUR experience.
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LOL Yup you're right. I only read the forum. No real shooting experience.
2003 - ASC #2 - 10th place
2003 - Carlos Hathcock 9th Annual match - 13th place (Marines)
2004 - Snipers Hide Cup - 10th place
2004 - Carlos Hathcock 10th Annual match - 1st place (Marines)
2004 - Storm Mountain Sniper Match Team Event - 12th place
2005- Snipers Hide Cup - 17th place
2005 - ASC# 4 - 2nd place
2005 - ASC#4.5 (fall match) - 2nd place
2006 - Snipers Hide Cup - 6th place
2006 - Snipers Hide Bash - 11th place
2006 - ASC#5 - 2nd place
2006 - ASC#5.5(fall match) - 4th place
2006 - Carlos Hathcock 12th Annual match - 1st place (Marines)
2007 - Snipers Hide Cup - 4th place
2007 - ASC (spring match) - 4th place
2007 - Tac Pro Sniper Match - 1st place
2007 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Fall) - 1st place
2007 - Carlos Hathcock 13th Annual Match - 1st place "A" (Marines)
2007 - Carlos Hathcock 13th Annual Match - 1st place Team
2007 - Sniper's Hide Bash - 4th place
2008 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 13th Place
2008 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Spring) - 1st place
2008 - Idaho State Sniper Challenge - 8th place - Team
2008 - Idaho State Sniper Challenge - 6th place Individual
2008 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Fall) - 1st place
2008 - NORCAL Sniper Competition - 2nd place
2008 - Sniper's Hide Bash - 9th place
2009 - Tactics Precision Rifle Challenge - 1st place
2009 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Spring) - 1st place
2009 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Summer) - 1st place
2009 - Carlos Hathcock 15th Annual Match - 1st place (Marine)
2010 - AZ TPRC - 15th place
2010 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 6th place
2010 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Spring) - 10th place
2010 - NorCal Bolt Rifle Challenge - 11th place
2010 - BHTC/MCSA Team Precision Match - 1st place Team
2011 - AZ TPRC - 5th place
2011 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 4th place
2011 - Score High Tactical Rifle Challenge - 9th place
2011 - Oregon Sniper Championship - 6th place
2011 - BHTC/MCSA Precision Match - 2nd Place
2011 - BHT Precision Match - 2nd Place
2012 - Missouri Midwest Rifle Masters - 3rd Place
2012 - Rifles Only Bushnell Brawl - 4th Place
2012 - Score High Tactical Rifle Challenge - 6th Place
2012 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 6th place
2014 - BHTC Sniper Challenge - 2nd place
2003 - ASC #2 - 10th place
2003 - Carlos Hathcock 9th Annual match - 13th place (Marines)
2004 - Snipers Hide Cup - 10th place
2004 - Carlos Hathcock 10th Annual match - 1st place (Marines)
2004 - Storm Mountain Sniper Match Team Event - 12th place
2005- Snipers Hide Cup - 17th place
2005 - ASC# 4 - 2nd place
2005 - ASC#4.5 (fall match) - 2nd place
2006 - Snipers Hide Cup - 6th place
2006 - Snipers Hide Bash - 11th place
2006 - ASC#5 - 2nd place
2006 - ASC#5.5(fall match) - 4th place
2006 - Carlos Hathcock 12th Annual match - 1st place (Marines)
2007 - Snipers Hide Cup - 4th place
2007 - ASC (spring match) - 4th place
2007 - Tac Pro Sniper Match - 1st place
2007 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Fall) - 1st place
2007 - Carlos Hathcock 13th Annual Match - 1st place "A" (Marines)
2007 - Carlos Hathcock 13th Annual Match - 1st place Team
2007 - Sniper's Hide Bash - 4th place
2008 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 13th Place
2008 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Spring) - 1st place
2008 - Idaho State Sniper Challenge - 8th place - Team
2008 - Idaho State Sniper Challenge - 6th place Individual
2008 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Fall) - 1st place
2008 - NORCAL Sniper Competition - 2nd place
2008 - Sniper's Hide Bash - 9th place
2009 - Tactics Precision Rifle Challenge - 1st place
2009 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Spring) - 1st place
2009 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Summer) - 1st place
2009 - Carlos Hathcock 15th Annual Match - 1st place (Marine)
2010 - AZ TPRC - 15th place
2010 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 6th place
2010 - Reade Range PA Sniper Match (Spring) - 10th place
2010 - NorCal Bolt Rifle Challenge - 11th place
2010 - BHTC/MCSA Team Precision Match - 1st place Team
2011 - AZ TPRC - 5th place
2011 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 4th place
2011 - Score High Tactical Rifle Challenge - 9th place
2011 - Oregon Sniper Championship - 6th place
2011 - BHTC/MCSA Precision Match - 2nd Place
2011 - BHT Precision Match - 2nd Place
2012 - Missouri Midwest Rifle Masters - 3rd Place
2012 - Rifles Only Bushnell Brawl - 4th Place
2012 - Score High Tactical Rifle Challenge - 6th Place
2012 - Sniper's Hide Cup - 6th place
2014 - BHTC Sniper Challenge - 2nd place
This thread just passed silly and went to sad.
Wasnt talking to you Rob lol but very nice creds. I didnt even know you posted haha
You started it all with the "You havent a clue.". And how am I "attacking" you? Lol Good for you Tyler, good for you. Ol, I do a little shooting here and there..
Still waiting on those championship trophy pics. Can I get a free copy of your shooting facts handbook as well? Lol
You started it all with the "You havent a clue.". And how am I "attacking" you? Lol Good for you Tyler, good for you. Ol, I do a little shooting here and there..
Still waiting on those championship trophy pics. Can I get a free copy of your shooting facts handbook as well? Lol
and you're clearly missing 2013 so... amateur is probably a good description. You're knowledge of current matches is probably minimal.
You're trying to attack my credibility to invalidate my assessment that the .308 is a handicap given shooters of equal ability; assuming I have no acclamation in shooting.
I don't keep a talley, I'm no pro or sponsored shooter but I've for a pretty nice stack of certs and usually place quite well.
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No you said it was all a fad and the only reason 6mm and 6.5mms win is because there are more people subscribing to a "fad".
The reality is it's a better mousetrap.
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Besides the awesome burn just handed out... Has 308220 ever shot both of those calibers to see what the difference is? Besides recoil, there's a noticable advantage vs the wind, not to mention elevation. Imagine that awesome 308 shooter now outfitted with the extra advantage of the 6/6.5 ballistics and lower recoil. He'd burn even more asses.
The 6mm is a fad just like the 308 was a fad 20 years ago. If you can get something better, why not use it?
All shooters being equal: As most of the playing field is using the 6/6.5, you're at a disadvantage at the start. You'll have to be the best man out there, and you'll still be struggling to stay in the prizes vs a lesser shooter that gets a few more points/hits because his bullet makes up for some of his wind errors. It's only "only about the shooter" when all else is equal, but all else never is equal. Any advantage is just that, an advantage.
The 6mm is a fad just like the 308 was a fad 20 years ago. If you can get something better, why not use it?
All shooters being equal: As most of the playing field is using the 6/6.5, you're at a disadvantage at the start. You'll have to be the best man out there, and you'll still be struggling to stay in the prizes vs a lesser shooter that gets a few more points/hits because his bullet makes up for some of his wind errors. It's only "only about the shooter" when all else is equal, but all else never is equal. Any advantage is just that, an advantage.
The fact there is sometimes a "top 308" prize given away should be an indicator that's its a decent handicap. That guy or gal is applauded for their effort given the circumstances. If it was completely competitive with the other 6s and 6.5s then there would be no reason to acknowledge it separately.
That is true, Tyler, I said that. And I still stand behind it.
Flood the match with more 6mm's and 6.5's and chances are, 6mm's and 6.5's are going to come out on top. Who woulda thought?!? Amazing!
Just curious. Im assuming you shoot a 6mm or a 6.5? How many 308's finish ahead of you? Zero?
Flood the match with more 6mm's and 6.5's and chances are, 6mm's and 6.5's are going to come out on top. Who woulda thought?!? Amazing!
Just curious. Im assuming you shoot a 6mm or a 6.5? How many 308's finish ahead of you? Zero?
Who is this guy?????
Just a guy that doesn't get it.
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I used to shoot a 308 for years, but wised up when I saw the huge BC difference with the 6.5's and 6mm's, it's a no brainer!!!!!
SERIOUS QUESTION FOR [MENTION=106458]308220[/MENTION]: If the .308 is such a great caliber, why did so many competitors gravitate towards the 6mm or 6.5mm based calibers?
Duh it's just a fad. It offers no serious benefit. LOL!
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It offers benefit, I never said it DIDNT.
Tyler, you never answered how many 308's finish ahead of you?
Question goes out to all of you 6mm/6.5 shooters as well. If a 308 finishes ahead of you, what does that say about your shooting, since ya know a 308 is such a piece of shit? Lol do you hang your head in shame? Or just refuse to believe what happened? Or, did that one not count?
Or, it must have have been luck, or the greatest shooter ever behind that 308 that beat a 6mm/6.5? Ok, I understand now. The 6's are the be all and end all. I understad now.
Tyler, you never answered how many 308's finish ahead of you?
Question goes out to all of you 6mm/6.5 shooters as well. If a 308 finishes ahead of you, what does that say about your shooting, since ya know a 308 is such a piece of shit? Lol do you hang your head in shame? Or just refuse to believe what happened? Or, did that one not count?
Or, it must have have been luck, or the greatest shooter ever behind that 308 that beat a 6mm/6.5? Ok, I understand now. The 6's are the be all and end all. I understad now.
This proves you've never shot one or a match of any kind. My buddys 308 with a can recoils less than my creed. And if we're talking hypotheticals where all of the sudden these amazing 308 shooters that don't miss suddenly appear and start winning the prs series and the sh cup then I guess how would Jeff Gordon feel if I beat him at a nascar race with my 4 cylinder civic? How would Michael Jordan feel if I beat him at one on one and I was in a wheelchair huh? pretty stupid I bet, wouldn't show his ass in another hanes commercial for sure. Think about it...
If I were to answer my own question, it would be Higher BC, Higher Sectional Density, Higher BC, Less Recoil.
I appreciate the honest response.
Comparing a shit shooter with a non-308 to an excellent shooter with a 308 is apples and oranges. You're not competing against poor shooters in a competition (not if you're going for prizes anyway). So let's forget that argument.
If you were to shoot both guns in the same match with the same conditions, which cartridge do you think would give you an advantage?
It's not a fad, it's just evolution. The 308 was a great round and will always be a great round, but there are better alternatives these days (and pretty much every mfg has jumped on the bandwagon hoping their case will be the one).
If you were to shoot both guns in the same match with the same conditions, which cartridge do you think would give you an advantage?
It's not a fad, it's just evolution. The 308 was a great round and will always be a great round, but there are better alternatives these days (and pretty much every mfg has jumped on the bandwagon hoping their case will be the one).
Two NASCAR race cars. Which do you think would win going against each other? Both with same driver. Both top of their game but at different times. The second is an evolution to make it better and stay competitive in an evolving sport. Same with .308s being used years ago and now 6/6.5s perform better ballistically. You wouldn't see someone coming out and racing with Junior's car now would you? How do you think they would do?
Heading to Peacemaker to shoot a 2 day match this weekend the 308 will stay in the safe the 6 Creed will be in the truck with all my kit. I love shooting both it is all about the right tool for the job IMHO
Wow, a lot of outstanding information in this thread. Thank you to all for providing such great information. As a person who really wants to get into shooting matches, this helps. I have a 308, and will be transitioning to the 6.5s soon. I have learned the basics on .308, and am excited to see what the 6.5s have to offer.
Question for the pros:
I was considering buying the new AI AT. I noticed that on the list, there isn't many (I think only 2) who run AI. What's your opinion on running an AI for competitions? I know AIs tend to be a little heavier, when competing, do guys try use lighter rifles?
Thanks again! If anyone is in the SoCal area, is there a place to go and watch a match nearby, or go to learn more about them?
Question for the pros:
I was considering buying the new AI AT. I noticed that on the list, there isn't many (I think only 2) who run AI. What's your opinion on running an AI for competitions? I know AIs tend to be a little heavier, when competing, do guys try use lighter rifles?
Thanks again! If anyone is in the SoCal area, is there a place to go and watch a match nearby, or go to learn more about them?
AT would be fine. Usually you don't see a lot of ai's because they don't run well on the high pressure cartidges popular for competition. There tends to be primer blowouts due to a generous flashhole. The 260 or 6.5 Creedmoor barrel options should be fine if you load them not at max and use the harder cci primers. it just depends on what you like, I personally don't like the ai or chassis style in general stocks for competing, I like manners/mcm styles for positional shooting. The biggest reason for not seeing ai's is the abundance of parts available for Remington 700s and clones (ex. Surgeon, defiance, bighorn, stiller). You can customize the stock, bolt handle and trigger to your liking. With the ai you get what it comes with. If that works for you go with it.
