- Thread starter MosesTheTank
- Start date
Thank you for the sentiments [MENTION=77811]308Gunner[/MENTION] and [MENTION=94292]para72[/MENTION], and everyone else. I do have my own way of handling things. The tuition paid for this lesson is up for public consumption, and the TR curriculum is well documented here and elsewhere. I have made a lifetime habit of attending expensive schools and this is the only instance in which the exchange of value was quite uneven.
As has been beat to death, a bit of googling for TR can save a lot of cardiac stress. I hope that everyone who considers buying a rifle from them should find this page. That is the primary reason I posted it.
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You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. I salute you.
Handled it better than me. I had a much much much more minor incident with an unsaid gunsmith, I flipped my lid. It was fixed and I got a refund for the labor cost.
For everyone not already aware, TacticalRifles.net has filed suit against Snipers Hide and Marc Soulie of Spartan Rifles.
Frank and Marc have set up legal defense funds, here's the link to the thread regarding the suit:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...wsuit-defense-fund-support-our-efforts-2.html
Frank and Marc have set up legal defense funds, here's the link to the thread regarding the suit:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...wsuit-defense-fund-support-our-efforts-2.html
Moses,I know its an old thread, but man I am so, so sorry that happened to you. Getting a new custom rifle is supposed to be an exciting and joyous moment. I can only imagine how deflated you must have felt. NO ONE DESERVES THAT! I'm glad a competent builder got you squared away, and the rifle's performing well. It's hard to understand how this happens. Building a good rifle only requires competent machining and ATTENTION TO DETAIL. TR, apparently, has neither. This absolutely inexcusable. For $8k (which is positively ridiculous for a custom built on a Rem 700) you should get absolute perfection!
Precisely! Watching the video and seeing the literature makes me think he is not even a SHOOTER! I mean I'm sure he's fired a bunch of guns, but does he really seem like a shooter? Someone obsessed with perfection and its pursuit? Hell no! Think about it for a second and compare Dave Rooney to other builders you know. He does not speak like someone who really has an expert understanding of rifle building or comp/tactical shooting. I doubt anybody will ever find Dave Rooney at camp perry or other big competitions that most builders show up to, if not shoot, from time to time. Do you think he even knows how to chamber and thread a bbl, or bed an action? Again, I doubt it. He just hires some "technicians," and probably wouldn't be able to spot their shoddy work, even if he tried to. I'd bet he's just some clever slimeball that figured he could just hire a few hack machinists to "accurize" Remy actions, put shiny ads in gun rags and interwebs, and sell the hell out of garbage put together by incompetent imbeciles. Just another jackass exploiting a business opportunity.
It is truly awful this is happening.
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My god! Look at heier "Urban Semiauto"... It's a Bushmaster. Says so on the receiver. It's probably a $4,000 Bushy with a bunch of cheap accessories. Rubbish!
http://www.tacticalrifles.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=10
http://www.tacticalrifles.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=10
Just saw the Hitler video...LOI Laugh out INSANELY...I hope they play the video in COURT...in front of a JURY...
A guy at my club purchased a tr rifle and received it in Dec. after a few years wait. Out of the box he was getting light primer hits and half his GM ammo was not going off, after bringing it over to my house where I checked his 308 chamber with a no go gauge after putting in a new firing pin spring. The spring has nothing to do with head space, but for his request I checked it and the no go chambered with a slight resistance. Not a condition to be worried about except if your a reloader and trying to get the most reloads out of your expensive Lapua brass. He contacted tr and they issued a pickup tag for the rifle to be returned last week. He did manage to shoot 3 5 shot groups after trying 1.5 box's of GM 168 and the groups were not what you would call impressive with a Krieger barrel. 1.5" at best.
And here we are...
I take it you got a letter from a lawyer.
Something tells me that would indeed be a mistake.
^^^^^ +1
Something tells me Moses might have halfway wanted that fight all along... He is a very well spoken man, who has clearly spent some time at quality universities. He writes as if he has spent more time in the "classical" departments than I could ever force myself to endure. I wonder if our friend Moses, whose well-penned posts I have thoroughly enjoyed, may have some legal expertise himself? Either way, if I were Dave Rooney I would probably not try to bully someone like him. From his posts, I can tell he is a man with means and brains, an awful target for a frivolous lawsuit...
Moses, again, I really feel for you. You have waited far too long and spent far too much money to have a POS delivered to you.
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I didn't get a letter, though I have been expecting one for quite some time. I was referring to Tactical Rifles, Inc. v. Soulie et al. This may only be the beginning.
I about spit my coffee all over the place. That was halarious. I apoligize at laughing at anothers expense but that was comical...
Hopefully the end of TR.net. Karma is a bitch.
Let me preface that I am not a lawyer or pretend to be a lawyer. Most of what I know about the law came from some business law classes I took 20 years ago.
That being said, I doubt Moses will get a letter since he is a customer and not a competitor and everything he has said has been factual or represented as his "personal" opinions around facts. Soulie on the other hand is a business competitor which puts more burden of proof on him. He has to prove that he did not commit libel/slander against tacticalrifles.net by showing that everything he wrote/said has been based on fact and can be proven.
That being said, I doubt Moses will get a letter since he is a customer and not a competitor and everything he has said has been factual or represented as his "personal" opinions around facts. Soulie on the other hand is a business competitor which puts more burden of proof on him. He has to prove that he did not commit libel/slander against tacticalrifles.net by showing that everything he wrote/said has been based on fact and can be proven.
No, actually in cases like this the party accusing another party of libel must prove that as a result of the libel he has suffered financial loss, and of course must prove it was libel to begin with
The part of the lawsuit that most intrigues me is the claim that there was an "assault"
We need to get a copy of the lawsuit to read the basis for the allegations being made
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
That video was awesome! I too was at first dazzled by the shiny website and glowing articles in half rate magaizines, but thank god I actually have google and found real reviews of this company. Otherwise I would have been starring in my own video.....
By the way Hospitaller is expected shortly.
By the way Hospitaller is expected shortly.
I am wondering if he actually filed suit or just had a lawyer write a threatening letter.
Is there a case #?
Rooney would be taking a major risk in suing a forum for what his customer posted.
I cannot see a judge siding with him but I can see a judge making him pay the defendants legal fees.
Is there a case #?
Rooney would be taking a major risk in suing a forum for what his customer posted.
I cannot see a judge siding with him but I can see a judge making him pay the defendants legal fees.
Food for thought?
If you had a personal experience with TRI, and you had a problem, make sure you register it with the Florida BBB?
Tactical Rifles Business Review in Zephyrhills, FL - West Coast Florida BBB
Looking at the info there, they only have 7 complaints filed, and my guess is there should be a lot more.
While it would obviously make sense to submit your problem / info to Frank & Marc, that information may be looked at as being biased or tainted, where info via the BBB make be seen as being from a more impartial 3rd party?
If you had a personal experience with TRI, and you had a problem, make sure you register it with the Florida BBB?
Tactical Rifles Business Review in Zephyrhills, FL - West Coast Florida BBB
Looking at the info there, they only have 7 complaints filed, and my guess is there should be a lot more.
While it would obviously make sense to submit your problem / info to Frank & Marc, that information may be looked at as being biased or tainted, where info via the BBB make be seen as being from a more impartial 3rd party?
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FYI: the BBB. Is a private entity and has no power for penalty. If the business does not belong to the BBB there is not much they can do other than keep complaints. But even then I don't know if they bother with that if they are not members.
Well that answers that.
Its still a way to make public the wrong doings of businesses that think they can slide by with sub par quality. Much like posting it here, you put it there with the BBB, a lot of people will run across that in most Google/Yahoo searches.
Its a shame how companies like this will take advantage of good people.
I am not a lawyer.
The complaint does not contain any elements of "Assault". That is the heading used to describe a certain type of case in the court venue, not this actual lawsuit. The complaint mostly seeks libel, negligence, tortious interference, and permanent injunction.
Where are you reading that? Do you have a link? Thanks!
Diversity is referring to diversity of citizenship. That just means the plaintiff(s) and defendant(s) live in different states. In order to sue someone in federal court the case must either be a federal question or involve diversity of citizenship. In this case, diversity is the reason it's being tried in federal court. BTW, the minimum amount that can sued for in federal court under diversity of citizenship is $75k.
Sure you would have.
Actually, here is the complaint itself.
View attachment shcomplaint.pdf
As to the $75,000 threshold, yes, they had to plead the matter that way in order to get jurisdiction in the federal court system. Otherwise, the plaintiff's would either need to file in California or Colorado.
At one time there was a saying that was popular at the court house, I am not sure I can totally recall it but it went something like this.
" Anyone with a word processor, and the necessary minimal funds, can file a Law Suit"
"But winning is not always as easy as filing"
" Anyone with a word processor, and the necessary minimal funds, can file a Law Suit"
"But winning is not always as easy as filing"
I wonder if he really expects to convince a jury that Mr. Soulie made a "false video" to ruin his reputation, or if he's hoping he can scare him and Frank away with just a threat? If I were a betting man, I'd choose the former. What a joke that company is...
I remember that video. I dont recall Marc even making mention of any company. He simply showed a crappy rifle build that he was nice enough to salvage for his customer. His video showed how bad smiths out there can really botch a job and rip people off who do not know any better. He did a great service to us. I am so sorry he and Frank have to put up with this TR nuisance, but I hope this puts a stop to Tactical Rifles. I wish some of you guys that have been screwed by TR could take the stand and tell that jury the truth about them. Pisses me off to read about such a stupid lawsuit. TR probably hired the same lawyer from the McDonalds coffee spill lawsuit.
Reading the complaint its a lot of crap tossed against the wall hoping something will stick IMHO.
It must be the shogun legal tactic of making a list and hoping something on their gets traction.
If it goes to trial and fails I hope the SH owner and the other defendant bury TR and makes them pay dearly.
The smarter move would have been to resolve the problems with the build.
It must be the shogun legal tactic of making a list and hoping something on their gets traction.
If it goes to trial and fails I hope the SH owner and the other defendant bury TR and makes them pay dearly.
The smarter move would have been to resolve the problems with the build.
They are just using bullying tactics in hopes to scare the post to be deleted. They should just fix the rifle instead of doing what they are doing. They are just burying themselves deeper and deeper. In fact if they did try to fix it, it would make great PR for them.
I wanna see the damn Hitler Vid !!!!
Ya know not to support Tactical Rifles but some things to consider would be...
They could of put your UNS mount on your stock and it would of looked like shit but they did you a favor and didn't in my opinion
Bottom metal needs to be parallel to your action. Most composite stocks are angled on that surface and they have tolerances that are all over the place. Something has to give to make it work. Machine marks... yeah I don't tolerate them on my parts but they are just cosmetic.
Sharp edge on your mag release... yeah don't poke your eye out with the tip of your bullet.
Chipped bedding... I have seen worse bedding jobs done by gunsmiths. Thank goodness I don't have to worry about bedding rifles anymore. The rear action screw gets about 1500lbs of clamping force on it when the action bolt is torqued down. The rear tang on you action will deform and the most important bolt is the front one anyways. I've seen lots of smiths not bed around the rear action screw. The most important thing here is that your action is touching a pillar and not just bending down into the forgiving composite material.
Action screws have dings and rust on them. Isn't this in Florida? Have you heard of galvanic corrosion? Those screws are just socket head cap screws with a black oxide finish. They will rust just sitting on the shelf. Remember that only about .2" of the very end of the screw is engaging with your action. Dings in the screw threads will happen from shipping.
Can't say much for the scope rings other than looks like there is an issue that I'm sure lapping them could resolve.
All that being said, you did pay a pretty penny for this rifle and you are the customer so you should be happy. I have seen the other video of TR's work and it looks pretty bad but if this ever happened to me I would be working directly with the smith and not creating other problems (lawsuits) by posting it to the internet. Granted it is good to get the word out so that others can be aware of these possible issues with TR. More love and less hate can go along ways is all I'm saying. Good luck to you, Frank and others that are tied up in this mess.
They could of put your UNS mount on your stock and it would of looked like shit but they did you a favor and didn't in my opinion
Bottom metal needs to be parallel to your action. Most composite stocks are angled on that surface and they have tolerances that are all over the place. Something has to give to make it work. Machine marks... yeah I don't tolerate them on my parts but they are just cosmetic.
Sharp edge on your mag release... yeah don't poke your eye out with the tip of your bullet.
Chipped bedding... I have seen worse bedding jobs done by gunsmiths. Thank goodness I don't have to worry about bedding rifles anymore. The rear action screw gets about 1500lbs of clamping force on it when the action bolt is torqued down. The rear tang on you action will deform and the most important bolt is the front one anyways. I've seen lots of smiths not bed around the rear action screw. The most important thing here is that your action is touching a pillar and not just bending down into the forgiving composite material.
Action screws have dings and rust on them. Isn't this in Florida? Have you heard of galvanic corrosion? Those screws are just socket head cap screws with a black oxide finish. They will rust just sitting on the shelf. Remember that only about .2" of the very end of the screw is engaging with your action. Dings in the screw threads will happen from shipping.
Can't say much for the scope rings other than looks like there is an issue that I'm sure lapping them could resolve.
All that being said, you did pay a pretty penny for this rifle and you are the customer so you should be happy. I have seen the other video of TR's work and it looks pretty bad but if this ever happened to me I would be working directly with the smith and not creating other problems (lawsuits) by posting it to the internet. Granted it is good to get the word out so that others can be aware of these possible issues with TR. More love and less hate can go along ways is all I'm saying. Good luck to you, Frank and others that are tied up in this mess.
Ya know, some things get lost in translation, but...
How do you mount an AN/PVS-22 if not to an UNS mount? If you can show a pic of such a system, please do. If you could do this it would be a bigger favor to me than they did for not being able to mount my PVS-22.
If you don't provide something to your customer that they paid for, do you tell them or let them come asking for it?
Cosmetics... cos-schmetics. Who cares what an $8k rifle looks like anyways. Machine marks and gouges are tactical, man. I dig.
Oh yes, galvanic corrosion. Galvanic corrosion is an electrochemical process in which one metal corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical contact and immersed in an electrolyte. For those of you who don't know, this is how primary batteries generate electricity. TR must have an interesting, elaborate, and expensive way for storing those screws. The shop in my basement is pretty boring. I just use a shelf.
So what happens to a scope when you torque it to 41lbs? And besides, who would expect a set of $224 rings to NOT need a good bit of finish work?
I have zero doubt you have seen worse bedding, very close up.
You must have missed the posts about asking Rooney to repair my rifle. Best part is you didn't see the benefit of the repairs in how the rifle performed.
Please tell us more about Alpine Gun Works.
As for words, there were quite a few exchanged with Rooney, contrary to what you indicated. I like words. And I have been very careful with them. I did look back for any expressions of hate and can't seem to find them. But I do appreciate the well wishes. Likewise.
Now for that pic of how you mount night vision systems... please?
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Any operator worth his salt uses Duck Tape to mount his PVS , you don't need any fancy mount
you never request what your rifle should look like , the builder knows what you need, thats his specialty
cosmetics are over rated , kinda like lipstick on a pig , your only after the bacon
corrosion is not corrosion , it is " patina " the sign of a well seasoned product
over 40# should be the minimum torque for mounts , do you want your out of spec scope to shift ? and cheap mounts will snap at anything less than this amount , be assured the mounts are of top quality by this test
bedding is not needed with your level of shooting skillz
Rooney is King
you never request what your rifle should look like , the builder knows what you need, thats his specialty
cosmetics are over rated , kinda like lipstick on a pig , your only after the bacon
corrosion is not corrosion , it is " patina " the sign of a well seasoned product
over 40# should be the minimum torque for mounts , do you want your out of spec scope to shift ? and cheap mounts will snap at anything less than this amount , be assured the mounts are of top quality by this test
bedding is not needed with your level of shooting skillz
Rooney is King
Give this bullshit a read:
TacticalRifles.net Sues The Snipers Hide ? The Truth About Internet Bullies
TacticalRifles.net Sues The Snipers Hide ? The Truth About Internet Bullies
[MENTION=57251]Twisted .308[/MENTION], I have learned a great deal throughout this experience. I sincerely welcome feedback. Thanks man.
