Taking serial #'s in cc class?

[skolz]

A friend of mine went to a concealed carry class this weekend and first thing they were asked to bring their firearms in unloaded. They then copied the serial numbers and names down then proceeded to have the class. Class was taught by two local leo's. I've never heard of anything like this before. Anybody have a input on this? Class was in Kansas.

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[KillShot]

I've not heard of anything like that either. I would've told them to kiss my white ass. They have no need for the serial number of ANY of my firearms.

 

[skolz]

That's what I said too. Took the class several years ago and nothing like that was done.

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[thrusty]

I'm not up on Kansas law...but, serials are not needed to take a CC class. However, serials, in some states, may be needed in order to apply for a permit - if you have to register the firearm you plan on carrying.

In West Virginia, what firearm you intend to carry is not a question on the paperwork. I find what your friend experienced as odd...

 

[Name Enough]

Is it possible they were checking for stolen handguns or for a lack of registration. I don't know if firearms have to be registered in that state. Someone should have asked why they were checking.

 

[skolz]

I thought of the stolen angle. Kansas has no kind of registration. I'm going to check into this further and will post my findings.


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[M21tactical]

Again, don't know KS laws. But in my state if that happened, I'd say no thanks and walk out the door. If they questioned me any further, I would say this is not a legal requirement and you have no probable cause for this information. Wow, this situation sucks.

 

[Triad]

It's CYA for the instructors, that's it. No S# needed in Kansas for CCW class. If you don't like it, question it. If you still don't like it, ask for a refund and find another provider. Kansas is in the middle of a pretty strong pro gun swing right now, so it not the state doing it.

 

[JuniperEyes]

They took serial numbers several years ago in the class I took here in NC. I figured I was giving up so much with the fingerprinting and background check that serial number on the POS gun I decided to use for the class was no big deal. I never been inside a jail or been finger printed before my CCW permit. They lined me up with the criminals when I went to apply for it at the Sheriffs department just like I was another criminal. Treated me as such while I was there too. Only difference was they let me go after I was printed

 

[High Binder]

It's CYA for the instructors, that's it.

How does having somebody's serial# act as a CYA?

 

[Triad]

If you do something stupid with a gun other than that which they recorded as having trained you on, they feel they have an extra layer of protection.

 

[High Binder]

If you do something stupid with a gun other than that which they recorded as having trained you on, they feel they have an extra layer of protection.

I guess I still don't see the link between CYA and serial numbers. Police officers are teaching the class, so I still don't see how if in your scenario above, if you do something stupid with your gun in the class how having the serial#s prior to class time helps and if that were the case then why don't all CCW teachers record serial numbers?

 

[Hairball]

Maybe they are in the process of changing the rules for CCW. I am LE in CA and I am allowed to have up to three firearms on my CCW. Each weapon is identified by make, serial number and caliber on the card and I can only carry those listed on the card and one of the three weapons must be my duty weapon. I have a Glock 20 on my card and I own two of them but I can't switch them out and carry one on one day and then the other the next. I know this does not make much sense; however, it may be a process of keeping an individual from going through the class with a 9mm and then carrying a 500 smith as their ccw. That's about the only reason I can think of.....

 

[Triad]

I guess I still don't see the link between CYA and serial numbers. Police officers are teaching the class, so I still don't see how if in your scenario above, if you do something stupid with your gun in the class how having the serial#s prior to class time helps and if that were the case then why don't all CCW teachers record serial numbers?

Its not in the class they are worried about. Its after they turn you loose into the world of soccer mom's and latte drinkers, with documentation from them that you have meet the requirements to ccw.

Part of the ccw in KS involves a shooting test. You bring a Glock 19 and shoot 100% on the qual and everything is hunky-dory. You get your permit after you have shown that you know the rules/laws, and have show some form of skill at using a handgun. The gun works, and shoots where you point it.

So you decide to change your carry pistol to something else down the road. There is no evidence that you ever shot it, much less passed the state required qual with it. If you get "involved" with this other gun, and things go horribly wrong, the instructors may have an "out" when it comes to some portion of the coming legal actions.

"Yes, we did train the defendant. He passed both the state written test, and the state qualification shooting test with a Glock 19, 9mm S#abc123, with a score of 100%"

"Can you explain to the jury, how after receiving training from you,and qualifying with a 100% score, the defendant shot and killed three bystanders, never once hitting his assailant?"

"The defendant was using the gun that we trained him on to pass the state course, which you will recall was a Glock 19, 9mm S#abc123. At the time of the incident, I believe evidence shows that the defendant was carrying/using/shooting a (enter whatever you want here). This is not the gun that we trained him on, and it is not the gun that he used to pass the state course. I think that the technician from the forensics lab testified that the gun used was not properly "zeroed" and rounds fired from it would impact three feet left of the point of aim at the distances in the shooting."

CYA increased = Liability reduced

 

[500grains]

Cops being cops.

 

[thrusty]

Its not in the class they are worried about. Its after they turn you loose into the world of soccer mom's and latte drinkers, with documentation from them that you have meet the requirements to ccw.

Part of the ccw in KS involves a shooting test. You bring a Glock 19 and shoot 100% on the qual and everything is hunky-dory. You get your permit after you have shown that you know the rules/laws, and have show some form of skill at using a handgun. The gun works, and shoots where you point it.

So you decide to change your carry pistol to something else down the road. There is no evidence that you ever shot it, much less passed the state required qual with it. If you get "involved" with this other gun, and things go horribly wrong, the instructors may have an "out" when it comes to some portion of the coming legal actions.

"Yes, we did train the defendant. He passed both the state written test, and the state qualification shooting test with a Glock 19, 9mm S#abc123, with a score of 100%"

"Can you explain to the jury, how after receiving training from you,and qualifying with a 100% score, the defendant shot and killed three bystanders, never once hitting his assailant?"

"The defendant was using the gun that we trained him on to pass the state course, which you will recall was a Glock 19, 9mm S#abc123. At the time of the incident, I believe evidence shows that the defendant was carrying/using/shooting a (enter whatever you want here). This is not the gun that we trained him on, and it is not the gun that he used to pass the state course. I think that the technician from the forensics lab testified that the gun used was not properly "zeroed" and rounds fired from it would impact three feet left of the point of aim at the distances in the shooting."

CYA increased = Liability reduced

Agreed - Very good point you make. It is odd that the instructors asked for serials....but, they should have been asked why.

The instructors need to provide their class a document that states the purpose of them collecting serials though. When a government authority figure collects information that's typically not required, people's imaginations typically run wild.

 

[High Binder]

Its not in the class they are worried about. Its after they turn you loose into the world of soccer mom's and latte drinkers, with documentation from them that you have meet the requirements to ccw.

CYA increased = Liability reduced

I see where you're going and can follow your logic now and to a degree it makes sense from the cop's point of view but it still seems to be a bit of a stretch to think that the cops training to CCWers are worried about liability in terms of what exact gun was potentially used in a shooting and again if that is why they record #s, why don't all instructors do this? Why not take DNA samples so that they can assured that the CCWer in the above scenario is the same CCwer?

Again, the potential reason you laid out above is a good idea/logic for why they are doing this but it still doesn't 100% compute.

 

[Strykervet]

They took serial numbers several years ago in the class I took here in NC. I figured I was giving up so much with the fingerprinting and background check that serial number on the POS gun I decided to use for the class was no big deal. I never been inside a jail or been finger printed before my CCW permit. They lined me up with the criminals when I went to apply for it at the Sheriffs department just like I was another criminal. Treated me as such while I was there too. Only difference was they let me go after I was printed

No SN check, but when I go to renew my CCP I have to go to the same window as the kid-fuckers on probation. And the Sheriff just treats everyone like kid-fuckers. Last time, there were two people with my first name and they confused the paperwork because they were busy. I ALMOST got fingerprinted under HIS name for kid fucking!!! THEN they got profusely apologetic.

That shit needs to change.

Serial numbers are for your insurance agency. FBI used to fingerprint me and my classmates when we were children, you know, in case we got kidnapped. But those records remain. Then they took DNA when I joined the military to identify body parts. But that info, last I heard, was being entered in the criminal database. So when a crime happens, I get to caught in that huge net, easier for mistakes to happen. Maybe it was why I was denied once for my very first purchase of a handgun. I never could figure that out, not to this day (other than the fact I never use SSN on the 4473).

Though I've never committed a crime other than pissing in an alley or failure to return library books, I'm in the database that they keep murderers and rapists in simply because I joined the army and went to a public school as a kid.

They ask for info they don't need all the time. Or they ask for it under one guise, then change the rules. A SN along with your name is a defacto registration at the local level, unless of course they purge it, but that doesn't seem like something the government does too often.

 

[Coloradocop]

Cops being cops.

To a degree you might be right with that response, and it may be completely innocent on their part. I was thinking about why they might have asked this question, then I thought of how we proceed with EVERYTHING in my department: If you go to the range to qualify, you fill out a shoot slip with your make, model, and s/n. If you practice you fill out another slip with the same information. You do this every time you shoot at the work range, and they want all of that information every time you shoot. It's possible the class is being run in that manner just because "that's the way we've always done it!"

 

[Coloradocop]

Cops being cops.

To a degree you might be right with that response, and it may be completely innocent on their part. I was thinking about why they might have asked this question, then I thought of how we proceed with EVERYTHING in my department: If you go to the range to qualify, you fill out a shoot slip with your make, model, and s/n. If you practice you fill out another slip with the same information. You do this every time you shoot at the work range, and they want all of that information every time you shoot. It's possible the class is being run in that manner just because "that's the way we've always done it!"

 

[Triad]

Cops being cops.

NO. Instructors being instructors...

The fact that they are LEO is basically irrelevant to the argument, other than that is where they learned to CYA well. As CO Cop said, they leared to record S# at the range where they work, and found that it was also a good CYA for them at their off duty job of teaching ccw.

They are not collecting the S# to turn into a big brother database. Hell, I've worked at a large Kansas agency for the last 18.5 years and Im not even aware of a way to "enter" the fact that somebody owns a gun into the "system". If I run a S# on a gun, the only info I can get back on at the street level is if it is stolen or not. That info they collect will go into a file box in a basement of one of their houses and sit there until the wife makes they get rid of it or they get ready to move.

For the reasons I mentioned, I would record the make/model/S# if I was teaching ccw classes.

 

[Triad]

Agreed - Very good point you make. It is odd that the instructors asked for serials....but, they should have been asked why.

The instructors need to provide their class a document that states the purpose of them collecting serials though. When a government authority figure collects information that's typically not required, people's imaginations typically run wild.

Yes, the students should ask why. The up front document of explanation would be a good idea.

Not Government authority figures. They are off duty, and had better be giving the "Ideas, thoughts, techniques, opinions etc express in this course DO NOT REPRESENT THOSE OF AGENCY X......." speech. My agency would pull my off duty work permit in a second if I failed to do it a situation like this.

 

[Triad]

if (instructors) are worried about liability in terms of what exact gun was potentially used in a shooting and again if that is why they record #s, why don't all instructors do this?

Because they are not as good at CYA as the instructors in question?

Recording the S# on a piece of paper is easy, cheap and fast. DNA is none of those things. In Kansas, they county where the permit is issued is ultimatly responsible for verifying the identity of the person they issue the ccw to.

 

[Triad]

Avoiding liability in the firearms industry consumes a lot of money,time and thought. 15+ years ago, I took a course from a company called Lethal Force Institute. About 50% range and 50% class. It opened my eyes to the world of CYA as it relates to firearms and training documentation. An LEO associate of mine was raked over the coals in civil court 10 years ago after a shot he took on a barricade incident. District Attorney's office never questioned it, but his time spent in civil court was a lesson to all that would listen. Many of the things I had heard at LFI rang true.

As shooters, most of us record everything! We record, test and save loading data. We record, store and consult data on every shot we fire, as well as every bit of environmental data we care to gather. Some log every time they clean/maintain/alter there SWS and then crosscheck shooting results etc. etc. etc. I find it odd that there would be much question about the recording of S# at a ccw class.

So I'll sign off with this:

If I was in the class and they asked for make/model/S# of intended handgun, I would ask: Why? Do you share it? How is it stored? Who as access to it? How long do you retain it? How do you dispose of it?

If Im happy after that, I stay. If not, I ask for a refund and walk away.

Im not saying that the recording of S# is right for everyone. Im saying it is a good way for the instructors to CYA....

 

[patsim]

Whether these instructors had an "agenda" or not, I see it as another example of data-mining that is today so ubiquitous.

 

[bondoscustomz1]

CC permit

In Alabama, last I did my CCP, we dont even have to give any info on make, model and serial # when applying for a permit and it covers any and all that we have or want to carry. We can carry 10 pistols at one time if we want to at the same time. IMHO, they are checking for stolen weapons or tracking. Im wondering one thing tho, do you have to have a permit to take a CCW class or is that what the class is for? Meaning, you are taking the class to qualify for your permit to in turn be able to CC?

 

[Slapchop]

I don't think there is anything "sinister" by them asking for a weapons serial number. I mean surely you guys are giving up other identifying pedigree information such as name, address, DOB and fingerprints when you sign up for the course correct? Why get all bent over the make, model and serial number of the weapon? They already know who you are, where you live and that you have guns lol.

If you don't like giving up the info just find another course to take. No one is forcing you to take any particular class.

 

[The Gump]

A friend of mine went to a concealed carry class this weekend and first thing they were asked to bring their firearms in unloaded. They then copied the serial numbers and names down then proceeded to have the class. Class was taught by two local leo's. I've never heard of anything like this before. Anybody have a input on this? Class was in Kansas.

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I would elect to not participate in the class, demand a refund, and tell the fucking ass hats to go get fucked.

 

[mexicanmatch]

Never heard of that before any were. I two would have walked out, back door to registration. MM