Probably never. Look how long it took to secure the border.
Anybody's guess what country will liberate Texas. Could be a long wait.
- Thread starter Hobo Hilton
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Anybody's guess what country will liberate Texas. Could be a long wait.
I guess you actually haven't ever studied why you need fungible items to enable commerce.
So let me put it to you in simple basic terms.
Let's start with bartering, okay so you want to work for someone to get a wheel.
Well nobody that makes wheels needs your type of labour anytime soon.
So now what?
You go around trying to do trade after trade hoping to eventually come up with something that the person making the wheel happens to need then or think they may need in the near future.
That all gets hugely inefficient, especially when dealing with crops or animals or land or many other things.
So you find something rare, something everybody can agree on is rare and hard to come by and not common.
You trade your goods or labour for those items, use them as a store of wealth so you can get what you need when you want it because others will take that because they know anytime they can take that thing and get what they want when they want it.
It's not just gold and silver, precious stones, semi-precious stones, rare beads or shells, many cultures have used many such things.
Gold is rare, gold takes a lot of work to get out of the ground, you can tell if gold is fake, all that makes it very useful for the above.
But there have often been other items used as fungible barter items.
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I'm not going to repeat myself again on it. I understand all that and yes I have researched it. It still makes no sense. Item with no use cannot have value in my mind. It's a useless material with wasted energy spent obtaining it. It's only value is shiny (up until recently). Again, bartering with useful item's makes logical sense. Shiny rock makes no logical sense. Just because some lord or banker at some point in history decided we need to have fungible worthless items to have commerce does not mean it aligns with primordial truth or logic.
Whatever. I'm probably too autistic to get it lmao.
Gold cannot be created from nothing, unlike fiat paper backed by nothing and printed into existence.
Gold is highly limited and finite, although it has limited specific use for its metallic purpose, it isn't valuable because of its inherent usefulness for industry (although it does have some important uses in industry, dentistry, etc). It is useful because it serves as an effective medium of exchange and a store of value due its relative scarcity and the difficulty of obtaining more. It is a physical commodity that makes sense to fix the value of a paper currency against. It provides an anchor or a safe harbor in what would otherwise be a sea of infinite paper in which the world would drown.
I'm not going to repeat myself again on it. I understand all that and yes I have researched it. It still makes no sense. Item with no use cannot have value in my mind. It's a useless material with wasted energy spent obtaining it. It's only value is shiny (up until recently). Again, bartering with useful item's makes logical sense. Shiny rock makes no logical sense. Just because some lord or banker at some point in history decided we need to have fungible worthless items to have commerce does not mean it aligns with primordial truth or logic.
Whatever. I'm probably too autistic to get it lmao.
Perhaps I was not clear enough in my explanation.
Suffice it to say that for the past almost 6000 years of recorded history, human societies above the most basic hunter gatherer level, have found that they needed some fungible, tradeable object, that retains is relative value over time and can be exchanged for anything, to enable barter and exchange to rise above the: what did you get hunting and what did you get gathering today? level.
Yes you could barter with useful items and in a really bad situation, that is ALL that will be accepted. When people are starving, gold is worthless compared to bread.
But once things get to a stable commerce level, specific items don't work usually as well for commerce as a fungible, widely accepted item.
Because while the item may be very useful, what if the person you want to trade with already has them and doesn't need that one and wants something you didn't have instead and you can't quickly find someone that wants the item you have and will trade you something that the person who has the item you want, would accept?
History shows human societies almost always rebuild and get to a higher level of commerce quickly, unless they simply collapse and vanish.
As mentioned, gold is rare. It also does not corrode. If I acquire an ounce of gold, in 100 years it will still be an ounce of gold... It will not corrode or degrade. It stays what it is.
You can amass a quantity of it and not worry about it rotting, rusting, or being eaten by vermin/insects.
A handful of gold discs is also a bit handier to transport than a cow or a cord of wood.
Mike
You can amass a quantity of it and not worry about it rotting, rusting, or being eaten by vermin/insects.
A handful of gold discs is also a bit handier to transport than a cow or a cord of wood.
Mike
Already happening. The US Debt is spiraling in acceleration at a current rate of $1 TRILLION DOLLAR every TWO MONTHS.
The recession is going to make this even faster.
There are a few Legislator's who can see the fall of the USD and are posturing their States to make the transition to gold.
Like it or not, the movement is under way.
_____________
Bills filed in the Oklahoma and Missouri legislatures for the 2024 legislative session would eliminate state capital gains taxes on the sale of gold and silver. The legislation would also take other steps to treat gold and silver as money instead of as commodities.
In Missouri, Rep Doug Richey filed HB1867 on Dec. 11. Rep. Bill Hardwick filed HB1955 on Dec. 15. The bills are companions to SB735 filed in the Senate by Sen. William Eigel earlier this month.
In Oklahoma, Sen. Shane Jett filed SB1507 and Sen. Nathan Dahm is running SB1508.
The enactment of any of these bills would eliminate state capital gains taxes on the sale and exchange of gold and silver bullion.
Both of these states are already among the 42 that do not levy sales taxes on gold and silver bullion.
Exempting the sale of gold and silver bullion from taxes lowers the investment cost of precious metals. It also takes a step toward treating gold and silver as money instead of commodities. Taxes on precious metal bullion erect barriers to using gold and silver as money by raising transaction costs.
oilprice.com
Like it or not, the movement is under way.
_____________
Bills filed in the Oklahoma and Missouri legislatures for the 2024 legislative session would eliminate state capital gains taxes on the sale of gold and silver. The legislation would also take other steps to treat gold and silver as money instead of as commodities.
In Missouri, Rep Doug Richey filed HB1867 on Dec. 11. Rep. Bill Hardwick filed HB1955 on Dec. 15. The bills are companions to SB735 filed in the Senate by Sen. William Eigel earlier this month.
In Oklahoma, Sen. Shane Jett filed SB1507 and Sen. Nathan Dahm is running SB1508.
The enactment of any of these bills would eliminate state capital gains taxes on the sale and exchange of gold and silver bullion.
Both of these states are already among the 42 that do not levy sales taxes on gold and silver bullion.
Exempting the sale of gold and silver bullion from taxes lowers the investment cost of precious metals. It also takes a step toward treating gold and silver as money instead of commodities. Taxes on precious metal bullion erect barriers to using gold and silver as money by raising transaction costs.
U.S. States Make Bold Move to Reclassify Gold and Silver | OilPrice.com
Bills introduced in the Oklahoma and Missouri legislatures aim to eliminate state capital gains taxes on gold and silver, treating them as money rather than commodities.
oilprice.com The Federal Reserve has set itself up for the rug to be pulled.... They are finger pointing while doing nothing to defeat inflation.
For those who disagree... How will the National Debt ever be paid off ?
$33 trillion
The $33 trillion gross federal debt equals debt held by the public plus debt held by federal trust funds and other government accounts. In very basic terms, this can be thought of as debt that the government owes to others plus debt that it owes to itself.
True, many have attempted to bring back the gold standard. Conditions have changed with the value of a USD dropping and the down trend of the DXY over the past 3 months. All of the options to paying off the National Debt are vanishing by the day.
U.S. Dollar Index (DXY), DXY Quick Chart - (IFUS) DXY, U.S. Dollar Index (DXY) Stock Price - BigCharts.com
DXY - U.S. Dollar Index (DXY) Basic Chart, Quote and financial news from the leading provider and award-winning BigCharts.com.
The USD is collapsing.
Ok....yeah. Theyll have a better chance of secession.
Not gonna happen.
Of all the things I've spot on predicted since January 2020, I hope I'm wrong on this one.....as a former gambler.....I think my pot odds are good on this one.
What will take it's place ?
I’ve mentioned it a few times on this board already, and will say it again: Please invest at least some of your savings into durable goods, arable land, and/or businesses that will survive a collapsing US economy.
We’re getting close to paying off our home, even with the additions over the past few months, and I’ve gone from 5%, and now at 50% of my retirement savings every month going into physical gold. Not doing this to make money…purely a hedge against inflation. Both happy, and horrified to see gold hit new highs right now.
Gold’s not really appreciating that fast, the dollar’s sinking faster.
We’re getting close to paying off our home, even with the additions over the past few months, and I’ve gone from 5%, and now at 50% of my retirement savings every month going into physical gold. Not doing this to make money…purely a hedge against inflation. Both happy, and horrified to see gold hit new highs right now.
Gold’s not really appreciating that fast, the dollar’s sinking faster.
Where and how do you buy it.I’ve mentioned it a few times on this board already, and will say it again: Please invest at least some of your savings into durable goods, arable land, and/or businesses that will survive a collapsing US economy.
We’re getting close to paying off our home, even with the additions over the past few months, and I’ve gone from 5%, and now at 50% of my retirement savings every month going into physical gold. Not doing this to make money…purely a hedge against inflation. Both happy, and horrified to see gold hit new highs right now.
Gold’s not really appreciating that fast, the dollar’s sinking faster.
I only know about coins and such. I have some that have been willed to me, but past that I don't know even how to get started.
The "we buy gold" type places just scream SCAM to me.
Where are "good" and not "internet" places to get started.
Do we hold all of the 33 trillion worth of debt?
I know at one time roughly half of our debt was held by us and the other half was what was owed to us from other sources... In other words if someone came knocking to collect we would point to other countries and say "collect from them, they owe it to us."
Of course the 33 trillion is the "good" number. I believe all of the unfunded liabilities and other crap put it up much higher.
Mike
I know at one time roughly half of our debt was held by us and the other half was what was owed to us from other sources... In other words if someone came knocking to collect we would point to other countries and say "collect from them, they owe it to us."
Of course the 33 trillion is the "good" number. I believe all of the unfunded liabilities and other crap put it up much higher.
Mike
Exact opposite of this. "Our" debt is money "we" owe to others. The someone coming knocking is YOU and/or China etc, and the someone to point to to pay it back is, well, you as well. The government borrows money, and the taxpayers (supposedly) pay it back. WE (taxpayers) are literally the collateral on the loan. Funny how that works.
Contrasting sensible rules of personal finance to the government deficit spending machine is a maddening delineation. If you are a reader this is one of the best books on the change in psychology over generations of rising and falling nations. Dalio trys to come off as a centrist, but he is a globalist douche bag like the Bush family flavor. Having said that the book isn't opinion it's a methodical forensic compilation with easily verifiable data on the how's and why's of world powers rising and falling. It's kind of a slow read b/c of all the charts and data, but if the topic is of interest a time worthy read. Deficit spending, work ethic and moral depravity play prominent from cover to cover.
**Well poop my amazon link won't show. It's Ray Dalio -
Principles for Dealing with the Changing World Order: Why Nations Succeed and Fail
Buy gold locally from a reputable coin dealer with a brick and mortar store.
Find one that has been in business for a few generations where the Grandkids now run the store Grandpa started.
How is that any different than manipulating currency? The Gold Standard gig was up a long time ago. That TX BS is just a bunch of red meat for the lemmings. Toss out some BS you know can't and won't happen to make yourselves look like you are solving real issues.
Classic Republican Uni-party move.
I've never heard it in quite those words : WE (taxpayers) are literally the collateral on the loan.
But, that is a good analogy.
In a rapidly changing world the value of "collateral" is also changing.
The rest of the civilized world is reacting to how American collateral is diminishing.
U.S. Dollar Index (DXY), DXY Quick Chart - (IFUS) DXY, U.S. Dollar Index (DXY) Stock Price - BigCharts.com
DXY - U.S. Dollar Index (DXY) Basic Chart, Quote and financial news from the leading provider and award-winning BigCharts.com.
Just because America was removed from the gold standard does not mean the rest of the civilized world was removed from the gold standard.
The rest of the world is watching America travel down the path to collapse.
More fiat currency.
This time strictly digital.
You won't be allowed to own precious metals.
Geez. Its like you aren't even paying attention to historical precedent.
Which historical precedent are you referring to ?
Don’t be stupid, that’s like saying we won’t be allowed to collect rainwater………or grow our own food or or or…….oh never mind……
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Since the time of the Roman Empire there has always been some form of Black Market where contraband exchanges hands.
Nothing has changed.
I have accounts with JM Bullion, as well as APMEX for buying physical precious metals; almost always recognized currency in the form of gold or silver 1 ounce coins. Seems like most of my orders are actually fulfilled by a company called Money Metals, regardless of the broker I go through.
To be completely transparent, a good chunk of the “physical gold” in my retirement accounts (i.e. the stuff in my 401K with my current employer) is in Sprott physical gold and silver trusts. So yeah, the investment is solely in physical precious metals, but I don’t have physical possession of that metal. Which sucks…if things go truly sideways, that arrangement’s about as good as a piece of paper that says one trillion-billion dollars signed by Robert Mugabe.
I can withdraw from my retirement accounts once I’m 59 and 1/2…but to get physical gold sent to me vs just cashing it out, I have to have the value of one standard gold trade bar in there…typically 400 ounces. Not there yet, LoL, and I don’t think I’m gonna wait long enough to get there. I buy a couple ounces of gold, and several ounces of silver…or the equivalent via those trusts…every month.
The stuff in my 401K is in a brokerage account tied to my 401K. I’ll just let it continue to sit until I think the time is right and start cashing it out, then use those funds to buy more actual physical gold, or more land I suppose. None of that will go back into the market…it’s purely a backstop/hedge against inflation.
More fiat currency. - This will diminish the buying power of the USD... A continuation of what is going on. This is nothing new.
This time strictly digital. - I remember being taught the metric system in junior high because "The world is going to be all metric".. Never happened.
You won't be allowed to own precious metals. - Several states, Utah being the first, have legislation allowing debts to be paid with gold. A reminder, the United States is not the world or the market. The markets of the world will be trading in gold, silver, oil, food. The petrodollar is dead.
Why does anyone believe the stupid shit going on in America will make other countries follow it down the rabbit hole ?
The continental USA could be reduced to burnt soil and Mother nature along with other super power countries will continue on and thrive.
Stop drinking the "America is King" Kool-aid.
WTF?
Makes you think im drinking America is King koolaid?
You are severely misunderstanding my position.
What's your solution to the fiat currency manipulation of the Fed?
Where did you see me write that I had a solution or that it is even one of the top 10 things I'd focus on fixing?
We have far larger issues than currency manipulation. You gonna end the corporate welfare programs, incentives and bailouts while you're at it? Are you going to stop sending Billions to fight a war we started intentionally, one that had no chance of success?
When you realize the game is rigged and both parties are in on it, you'll stop worrying about such things.
And the reason we will never go back to the gold standard is there’s not enough gold in the world to cover the amount of Fiat US dollars floating around this country and every other country…….
This is a fun read. Part Indiana Jones, part Wall Street and everything in between regarding gold from ore to Fort Knox.
"In the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, the price of gold skyrocketed—in three years more than doubling from $800 an ounce to $1900. This massive spike drove an unprecedented global gold-mining and exploration boom, much bigger than the gold rush of the 1800s. In Gold, acclaimed author Matthew Hart takes you on an unforgettable journey around the world and through history to tell the extraordinary story of how gold became the world’s most precious commodity.
Beginning with a page-turning report from the crime-ridden inferno of the world’s deepest mine, Hart traveled around the world to the sites of the hottest action in gold today, from the biggest new mine in China, to the highly secretive London gold exchange, and the lair of the world’s most powerful gold trader in Geneva, Switzerland. He profiles the leaders of the gold market today, the nature of the current boom, and the likely prospects for the future. From the earliest civilizations, when gold was an icon of sacred and kingly power, Hart tracks its evolution, through conquest, murder, and international mayhem, into the speculative casino-chip that the metal has become. He ends by telling the story of the massive flows of gold that have occurred in the wake of the financial crisis and what the world’s leading experts are saying about the profound changes underway in the gold market and the prospects for the future."
"In the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, the price of gold skyrocketed—in three years more than doubling from $800 an ounce to $1900. This massive spike drove an unprecedented global gold-mining and exploration boom, much bigger than the gold rush of the 1800s. In Gold, acclaimed author Matthew Hart takes you on an unforgettable journey around the world and through history to tell the extraordinary story of how gold became the world’s most precious commodity.
Beginning with a page-turning report from the crime-ridden inferno of the world’s deepest mine, Hart traveled around the world to the sites of the hottest action in gold today, from the biggest new mine in China, to the highly secretive London gold exchange, and the lair of the world’s most powerful gold trader in Geneva, Switzerland. He profiles the leaders of the gold market today, the nature of the current boom, and the likely prospects for the future. From the earliest civilizations, when gold was an icon of sacred and kingly power, Hart tracks its evolution, through conquest, murder, and international mayhem, into the speculative casino-chip that the metal has become. He ends by telling the story of the massive flows of gold that have occurred in the wake of the financial crisis and what the world’s leading experts are saying about the profound changes underway in the gold market and the prospects for the future."
Look into the costs of bullion storage and transportation. Think about that as the real barrier to it making a comeback as a regular and primary unit of exchange. Then think about the ease of counterfeiting. It’s not a practical medium of exchange anymore.
These legislative changes are not for regular folks to benefit from. They’re tax and inheritance tax dodges paid for by rich folks who buy politicians. It does allow the little people some room to play but it’s nothing more than that.
These legislative changes are not for regular folks to benefit from. They’re tax and inheritance tax dodges paid for by rich folks who buy politicians. It does allow the little people some room to play but it’s nothing more than that.
100%. The US is never going back to the gold standard and a CBDC is on the burner ready for implementation b/t inter-bank transfers. They already ran it for 3 months it's called a 'regulated liability network'.
As far as gold used for inflation hedging benefits it's tenuous at best. During the 70's inflation period gold returned around 35% on 8-ish inflation. Nice for sure and the 70's gave gold it's glory days, but since then it's been a lot different. From 80-84 with 6-7% inflation gold fell 10% per year in that period. Ouch. From 88-91 with 4.5% inflation gold fell another 8% per year. Fugly. An inflation hedge should increase in value with a rip up in consumer prices. Gold traded sideways in 2021-22. Nice performance the last year though. So over very short periods it can do well, but long term it hasn't come remotely close to owning quality equity/credit portfolios. The cost to insure and store it in addition to not being an income generating asset doesn't make it any more attractive either.
Gold's inflation adjusted price fluctuates more than Joe Biden's daily drug regimen. If it were a reliable hedge it would be relatively constant with CPI.
You chose the 70's to begin your analysis. I will go with your time line.
I know no one who bought and held gold at any time over the last 53 years and lost money.
I know many who bought equity / credit and lost big time.
I didn't say anyone lost money did I? I said gold is a very poor inflation hedge. My portfolio has crushed gold the last 30 years approximately 3-1 as has anyone who just kept a level head and stayed invested in quality. We all know people who have lost money investing and those who can't manage emotions typically get slaughtered at some point. Gold more than a tiny hedge is simply a poorly performing asset if you want to maximize your wealth.
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Dang dude this thread is about the gold standard and currency. Why are you even here if that's not something you care to discuss?
Digital transfer of ownership can be the same as any other medium we use for currency these days. If Fort Knox has x # of gold valued at $1 quadrillion (they can make this number up based on the new valuation of gold) then digitize that value into a blockchain ledger and then buyback all the old federal reserve notes and issue gold backed digital currency in exchange. US dollars go away, physical gold is stored centrally, and we go about our days using our cards like we do now. Can it be manipulated again? Sure, but I can't think of a system that will ever be perfect. It is less likely to be manipulated to the extent the current system is though.
Interesting idea and would be quite a thing to see the people who want unfettered access to magic spreadsheet money allow a system to come into existence with a modicum of restraint built in. Although I still think there is hope for 70's disco outfits and denim suits to make a comeback so anything is possible!
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I will just add this, take it as you all see fit, but I actually know someone that works for the fed and I have had these dollar dying off deal and being swapped for crypto conversations with him. He kind of laughs it off. In short, his reply was, killing off the dollar and going to crypto would be the worst possible thing for the US and the globe. So from his perspective, the dollar isn’t going anywhere. Take it for what it’s worth. He also doesn’t believe that the gov is looking to do some digital crap to manipulate and watch and control everyone, at least not yet anyways.
When Powell announced they were going to do a CBDC pilot program I took time to read their white paper. If you have some down time this weekend give it a read. If you think of it and are so inclined would be great if you could ask your friend where the board collectively stands now after the pilot program ended it's 12 week test last summer.
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Where do you guys stand on Goldbacks? That gold infused currency used out west in 5 states. If I'm reading it right, 1 Goldback has 1/1000 oz. gold in it so at $2,088/oz. it'll cost $2.08 to buy one Goldback. But the site says the exchange rate is valued at $4.42 per Goldback. Does that mean you're making out by doubling your fiat dollar at places that accept these things? Barring the notion that they just double their prices in the store where these currencies are accepted.
Good question. For me personally, physical (buried in my back yard) is the only way I want to go.
After some research, I would lean towards junk silver before a Goldback.
If I’m thinking the same thing “goldbacks”, SDbullion has them for sale I have always thought of them as a novelty.
added; the art work is incredible, I like stuff like that for me, would frame them and hang ‘em on the wall.
added; the art work is incredible, I like stuff like that for me, would frame them and hang ‘em on the wall.
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Can you melt them and recover your gold…….if not then there just IOUs
I was at a local place a couple months ago and the guy was pushing those. Apparently yes, you can melt the plastic or whatever and recover the gold. But it seemed more like some sort of snake oil to me. Why pay double for a piece of plastic with a tiny bit of gold in it.
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