Range Report The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

BigSoundRacing · Dec 10, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Great thread!

esorensen · Dec 14, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

excellent demonstration. Thank you for the visual.

JC Steel · Dec 16, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

thank you for this thread very useful

aggiesig · Dec 16, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

great work...

Something else to add to the list, a level!

I've seen one installed inside of a USO scope, does anyone know how much that runs on a new build? or a retrofit?

Thanks again to the OP

ggmanning · Dec 18, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

spin d would fix this but only unilaterally!

Nice visual of the results. Thanks

djtjr · Dec 26, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Great post thanks

xr650rRider · Dec 27, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In the end, the program was right and it was my lack of understanding that made it look 'off'. Brad is a sharp guy, and as many eyes that have been on his programs, I doubt there are any major or minor errors left.

-Bryan </div></div>

Bryan, I finally got your book. Well worth the read and trouble. Isn't there an error in JBM's calculations for look angle? Shooting down hill has more drop than shooting up hill or am I looking at it wrong.

WRM · Dec 27, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since we're on the topic, what is the preferred leveling mechanism. A folding or a fixed level or something else entirely? </div></div>

There's a few different styles. I've seen base mounted, tube mounted, ring top mounted.

I went with a tube mounted design with the bubble riding centerline (some are extended out to the side). Upside is it is fairly protected, and unobtrusive. Downside is it's not as convenient to check, you have to raise your head slightly to check it.

</div></div>

I use this type on my rifles and check level with my left eye (I'm right-handed). No need to break position and it only takes a second....

Cheers,

Bill

ra10x · Dec 30, 2010

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

very good report!!! thanks

RandyD · Jan 22, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Excellent experiment in illustrating the effects of cant. This is what makes these sites valuable.

tatemarb · Jan 23, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

xr650rRider,

uphill or downhill, it doesn't matter as long as the amount of incline and decline are the same. The true horizontal distance is what you need for dialing in (measuring the up/down angle allows the calculation of true horizontal distance versus "line of sight" distance).

tater

Tommy Two Dogs · Jan 29, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Great info. Have known that there was a problem, just didn't understand why. Thanks to all who have posted. This has helped me.

xr650rRider · Jan 30, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">xr650rRider,

uphill or downhill, it doesn't matter as long as the amount of incline and decline are the same. The true horizontal distance is what you need for dialing in (measuring the up/down angle allows the calculation of true horizontal distance versus "line of sight" distance).

tater </div></div>

There are some differences due to gravitational pull with same angle up vs. down. That was why I asked the question. Brian's book shows drop as being less shooting downhill but JBM calculations showed shooting downhill as having more drop than shooting up hill. So one of them had an error in their calculation.

Lindy · Jan 30, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Think about a shot straight up versus straight down. It should be obvious there will be less drop on a shot downhill, where gravity is aiding rather than impeding the velocity of the bullet.

For the gory details:

Angled Fire Explained

-H- · Jan 30, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Thank you for documenting your test.

I appreciate seeing evidence that supports a theory. Seeing the effects of canting really helps to comprehend the importance of maintaining a level platform.

xr650rRider · Jan 31, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Since gravitational force and atmospheric density decreases with altitude, maybe JBM is accounting for it???

Downhill from JBM with -45 degree angle.

Uphill from JBM with +45 degree angle.

I think more likely there is a mistake.

Lindy · Jan 31, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

I think that probably is a program error. I checked the direction of the drop in a Ballisticomp unit, and also in Ballistic FTE running the JBM engine, and both show less drop on a downhill shot than an uphill shot. I'll drop Brad a note.

DAFAR · Jan 31, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

HOLY C$%#
never in a million years would I have thought that that such a small amount of cant would make such a big differance. Thanks for doing this. Mike

jbmillard · Feb 1, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

This is a bug -- definitely. The telltale sign to me is not the drop, but the difference in velocity.

I'll have it fixed tomorrow.

As always, thanks for letting me know about it, I always appreciate any input that helps make my site better.

Brad

tnichols · Feb 1, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Good info and thread. Looks like Milan.

Victor Co Heather · Feb 12, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Jeezus, now I have one more thing to worry about!

Great info thanks for the write up.

Obviously this demonstrates not only is it important to shoot from a level platform but also to level your scope properly.

mtn grizzly · Feb 16, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Great Test and Report

Thanks for all the work!

Grizzly

splean · Feb 17, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

This was a great post and a great idea. It really helped me in trying to understand the effects of canting. Thanks for posting.

Radar360 · Mar 31, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Great info. Thanks for posting!

Shooter45 · Apr 8, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Awesome post! Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to prove the effect of cant.

JNel · Apr 9, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Thanks for documenting and sharing Brasscow.

Sapper524 · Apr 10, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Great post, great reading, thanks for the post and time spent.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since we're on the topic, what is the preferred leveling mechanism. A folding or a fixed level or something else entirely? </div></div>

I have tried several and my thoughts are ...

Top Mount - works but not user friendly and you almost have to break your cheek weld completely to check it.

Swing Mount (USO) - mounted it on several rifles and have found it very user friendly. On my 26 inch 308 with cosign indicator in front of it that system works great. quick check with the off eye for level and cosign.

Internal (USO) - I was worried this would add "cluter" inside the tube but they did a nice job of putting it in the "shadows" per say.

WIth all of them I podlock a tad on the canted side as once I snuggle up and make my cheek weld it shifts the rifle a bit. I would have to say I prefer the swing mount w/ cosign on the left side. I can get my NPOA all dialed in with the rifle leveled and podlocked. After a couple closed eye breathing reps check and recheck - NPOA, Level, Cosign etc. All can be done without breaking cheek weld and just a crack of the left eye. The internal level is a nice feature but a new addition to the stable and Im not used to it per say yet. With more reps I might shift to that being my prefered setup. For speed and quick / combat marksmanship, DMR type, I would prefer the internal level. My two cents on levels ...

gjantzer · Apr 11, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a Demo from my air rifle days, most FT competetors will use a anti Cant device. Lobbing projectile down range is the same big or small.
SScott
http://www.arld1.com/targetplottrajectory3.html </div></div>

according to this visual tool, the effect of rifle cant would manifest itself into a shot (or groups) moving right and DOWN or left and DOWN. The actual field test shows the bullets moving right and UP and left and UP. Any ideas why the field test appears to reflect data that is contrary to the visual aid tool?

BattleAxe · Apr 11, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

To throw another wrench into the gearbox...I've been playing with the effects of cant as well and the type of bipod you use makes a HUGE difference considering that no 2 swivel bipods have the pivot point at the same distance below the line of the bore.

The greater that distance, the greater effect being off-cant has. Now add the fact that unless you're young with perfect vision, your eyes/brain can make a different mistake with each shot you take. Believe it or not the bipod I've found with the least effect on cant, at least for a rail mounted unit is the tried and true harris. Many of these swivel rigs are overrated and poorly designed.

Definately a good read guys.

Pat M · Apr 25, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2189771

for field shoots, tactical shoots, of uneven ground or objects

Outback · Jun 6, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Nice 600 yrd group

1fstTA · Jun 6, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

man I love reading post like these you can truly take some great information out of this. Thanks guys

ryhag1 · Jun 7, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Hard data is the best info and one cant argue the facts that are presented. Thanx for the info.

Dylan in AZ · Jun 11, 2011

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

This is an exceptional thread.

bth87 · Oct 15, 2012

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

tag

milo 2.0 · Oct 15, 2012

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Try a Holland level, forward of your turrets. No need to break cheek weld.
To me the USO swing is cheezy, you can move it by touching it, when is it level??

dm1779 · Oct 18, 2012

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

I've got this on my rifle Vortex Bubble Level and I'm able to shift my eyes up to it without taking my cheek off the rifle.

It wasn't until I went down to a 1000 yard match that I realized how much canting my rifle had an effect. But very cool to see a write up about a controlled test.

SavageLapua · Oct 22, 2012

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

Very informative. I knew this was important, but I never saw how drastic the POI shift would be.

Grump · Oct 23, 2012

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't use a horizon either, as I wouldn't be looking at the horizon, I am focusing on the target.
</div></div>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

We got NO level horizon here, or where I grew up, or where any of my brothers live.

In fact, I never thought about using the horizon to level anything. Except at the beach using the ocean.

OneShotJim · Oct 26, 2012

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

This is a great thread. I think this info is especially important for relatively new shooters. So I suggest that this thread deserves a sticky. Anyone else agree?

Upon putting a bubble level (Vortex) on one of my rifles, I realized I was inadvertently canting to the right, & sometimes by different amounts, even though I thought I was dead level by eyeball. This canting was making my groups open up even at 200-300 yards. I saw immediate improvement with the level installed so I'm now in the process of putting bubble levels on the optics of all my rifles.

Thanks everyone for the super info and discussion!

brado16 · Nov 7, 2012

Re: The effects of side to side cant - field test/pics

+1 for the Vortex Bubble level.

I have it mounted off the right side of my rifle since I shoot lefty and can see it fine with my right eye when looking through my scope with my left eye.

J Mack · May 30, 2013

Bringing this back up after talking about the value of a level with some friends.

TTT
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Lowlight · May 30, 2013

I took this image of a competitor during the 2013 Sniper's Hide Cup... a Field Match with high winds and targets out to 1200 yards+

At this point, this competitor "cleaned" the stage which included 1.5 MOA targets out to 800 yards... Note the Level on his rifle

Level's are a "training tool" and not a shooting tool, if you are using it while you are engaged in active competition or other meaningful shooting you're already too late. Still as much cant as you see in this image he HIT all his targets without issue.

The MAJORITY of the levels I saw on the line were exactly like this when the clock was running, ignored or off because the shooter had other things on their mind or did not set the level up to their natural position instead set the level up against their own body and mind. Levels are cool, but not the end all the hype makes them out to be.

downrange67 · Jan 5, 2014

Thanks for the great write up!

sinister · Jan 5, 2014

Excellent work -- and a great reminder why the vertical cross hair must be plumb with the bore line.

The error will be just as pronounced (and confounding/annoying) when trying your darnedest to hold scope true to a bubble level while the rifle under it is canted left or right.

Shouldn't be a big deal (as we've had weapons like the BREN and top-fed Stoner 63) but there's parallax or off-set/non-convergence any time your sighting device isn't directly aligned.

Smokerroller · Jan 14, 2014

Great thread thanks for all the knowledge

graewolf · Jan 15, 2014

This is a great thread to ressurect. I myself have levels on my rifles, and have read the theorycrafting and drawings of cant effects. Kudos to Brasscow for taking the time to show real effects. More dramatic than I thought, and at least a bit of unexpected results hitting high....compared to most of the diagrams showing a L cant will hit low and L, etc.

I also thought someone would have taken it a bit further. Like showing incremental effects.....say 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 degrees of cant. Also Battleaxe mentioned something that I've been thinking while reading thru the thread. What are the effects of the axis of cant? If the rifle pivots/cants along the exact axis of the bore will the effect be less dramatic than, say, a bipod that has a pivot point 3 inches below bore? Would that even matter?

colson · Jan 15, 2014

graewolf said:
This is a great thread to ressurect. I myself have levels on my rifles, and have read the theorycrafting and drawings of cant effects. Kudos to Brasscow for taking the time to show real effects. More dramatic than I thought, and at least a bit of unexpected results hitting high....compared to most of the diagrams showing a L cant will hit low and L, etc.

I also thought someone would have taken it a bit further. Like showing incremental effects.....say 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 degrees of cant. Also Battleaxe mentioned something that I've been thinking while reading thru the thread. What are the effects of the axis of cant? If the rifle pivots/cants along the exact axis of the bore will the effect be less dramatic than, say, a bipod that has a pivot point 3 inches below bore? Would that even matter?

Can't see that the bipod pivot would make a difference as it is the relationship of the line of bore to the line of sight that is relevant. When firing with the rifle canted at a full 90 degrees you will see a large elevation shift. I had to do that once to shoot through a small hole at the base of a wall on a roof.

graewolf · Jan 15, 2014

.....and even if your pivot axis was lower than bore axis by a foot you are still reorienting the bore and line of sight axis with the rear of the rifle, correct? That was the dilemma in my head, it seems like it would change things but all it really changes is a minuscule angle of the target facing essentially.

Would still like to see, or even try myself, incremental effects....on paper that is.

M40_A1 · Jan 26, 2014

colson said:
When firing with the rifle canted at a full 90 degrees you will see a large elevation shift.

Yeah, like the full amount of bullet drop for that range, assuming you have zero wind dialed on.

gjantzer said:
according to this visual tool, the effect of rifle cant would manifest itself into a shot (or groups) moving right and DOWN or left and DOWN. The actual field test shows the bullets moving right and UP and left and UP. Any ideas why the field test appears to reflect data that is contrary to the visual aid tool?

I guess this was missed before. I think the angle of the line makes the groups APPEAR to be "UP". If you look again, the centered group is actually above the aim point to begin with, and the proximity of the line makes them appear even higher. To me, all three groups seem to be on the same level. So, while not contrary to the visual aid tool, it is not in agreement with it either.

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