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The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tell me whats a realistic profit a guy can expect per hour on 4mil$ worth of equipment? What kind of a net profit should one expect on their sales?

Whats a realistic markup of a product for a wholesaler, distributor, and dealer system?


</div></div>

As much as the market will bear Mon Ami!

Some may be offended by an "Obscene" profit but only the decline in sales due to the influx of entrants to the particular market would normally generate the need to lower pricing.

When deciding how much to mark up the the price of a product or service over the manufacturing or acquisition costs, one must realize that not all costs are immediately evident and may not reveal themselves for many years. Some are referred to as externalities, such as charges for pollution, or asbestos exposure, that may have occurred three generations prior. Others may reveal themselves three years after the sale, requiring refunds or replacements that only a comfortable margin at the sales point would allow without endangering the long term viability of the business.

Ultimately, the idea that one must be attentive to the market conditions, be versatile and able to speak to all of one's varied customers and critics, without anger or acrimony, means that a person selling a service or product can best navigate the many surprises and challenges that arise.

Even when people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about run their yaps about how you are under taxed and charge too much for your outstanding work, that no one else can do as well, yet are willing risk their money on patent or copyright infringed or unlicensed, uninsured, undocumented competition...

But hey it costs less!
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would still like someone to answer this question ..

Whats a realistic markup of a product for a wholesaler, distributor, and dealer system?
</div></div>

I'll answer it... Whatever you can charge that people are <span style="font-weight: bold">WILLING</span> pay.

The issue is people bitching when domestic companies with 300% markups whine about lost business because they're not willing to cut their profits in order to stay ahead of all competition both foreign & domestic. This is Capitalism and nowhere does it say it's limited to domestic businesses. The problem is people arguing that a consumer should feel obligated to pay more than they're willing simply to fund a dying economy and maintain a nostalgia that Americans somehow work harder or deserve it more. Fact is this Country does not have the same work ethic or ideals it had in times long gone and there's a larger false belief of entitlement.

So back to your answer. <span style="font-weight: bold">IF</span> they'll pay it, then charge it. If they <span style="font-weight: bold">WON'T</span> pay it and a business is failing then cut the mark-up or get another job. I'm not talking about the less than 5% of consumers that will always bitch a product is overpriced unless it's free. And they're 1/2 the problem with our economy. To those people... Put on your Big Boy pants and go WORK for it!
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tell me whats a realistic profit a guy can expect per hour on 4mil$ worth of equipment? What kind of a net profit should one expect on their sales?

Whats a realistic markup of a product for a wholesaler, distributor, and dealer system?


</div></div>


As much as the market will bear Mon Ami!

Some may be offended by an "Obscene" profit but only the decline in sales due to the influx of entrants to the particular market would normally generate the need to lower pricing.

When deciding how much to mark up the the price of a product or service over the manufacturing or acquisition costs, one must realize that not all costs are immediately evident and may not reveal themselves for many years. Some are referred to as externalities, such as charges for pollution, or asbestos exposure, that may have occurred three generations prior. Others may reveal themselves three years after the sale, requiring refunds or replacements that only a comfortable margin at the sales point would allow without endangering the long term viability of the business.

Ultimately, the idea that one must be attentive to the market conditions, be versatile and able to speak to all of one's varied customers and critics, without anger or acrimony, means that a person selling a service or product can best navigate the many surprises and challenges that arise.

Even when people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about run their yaps about how you are under taxed and charge too much for your outstanding work, that no one else can do as well, yet are willing risk their money on patent or copyright infringed or unlicensed, uninsured, undocumented competition...

But hey it costs less! </div></div>

Wow I feel redundant now, lol... I didn't see your post for some reason. Sorry about rehashing part of what you just said... lol
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">here is the problem,

Atlasworx is not a vendor and the people selling this product for them are trying to exploit a loophole in the site rules to get around being a vendor.

This group buy, which is ending today, will be locked and will never happen on here again unless they become a vendor.

It's great you found a deal, and like the idea of an inexpensive product that does something similar to the original. But people coming into posts and other group buys linking this is not right. It's a gray area for sure, but still, if this was another product I would have tons of moderator alerts. Instead we have people promoting this over and over which is just wrong and hurts those who are vendors.

they pay to be on here and sell, what you guys are doing with Atlasworx is wrong, </div></div>

Not trying to pick a fight here, but it seems there are group buys that happen by people other than vendors, for vendors that are not listed on the commercial sales master list.

Now, I understand that these MAY happen given site approval?

I have seen group buys locked for not getting site approval before, and honestly thought since it had not been locked, and allowed to continue, it was legit. So yes I jumped on the group buy with many others.

Honestly, had another vendor offered a group buy price at similar prices as being advertised lately, I would have had a DBM a while ago. As it stands, I jumped on the low price DBM group buy before CDI tried to counter by cutting his price by 40%.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

The seller (indirect or other) should be a vendor, so shutting this down is fair enough.

However, as a gentle kick in the fruits from your best-mates-in fighting-all-things-bad: At least an Australian mfg will sell this stuff to you from down here. The irony of all of this is not lost on your poor Australian cousins, who can't buy similar gear from the U.S without incurring substantial extra costs, or even at all because there is a seeming belief amongst many dealers there that shipping gear to your principal ally and shipping gear to Yemen equals the same thing...

As for the rest of it, your economy is in the shitter and you need to skull drag yourselves out of it before you and the basket case euro-zone drag the rest of us under. Frankly, I don't much care if the EC collapses but I care very much about whether you guys spear in. However, I doubt that trying to move/keep the bulk of mfg back onshore will do anything helpful and would probably just kill the patient, unless your cost of living drops through the floor and people are willing to accept similar mfg wages to those paid in China and India. Won't happen and it's the same here with Mfg. We can't compete.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr Scholl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The seller (indirect or other) should be a vendor, so shutting this down is fair enough.

However, as a gentle kick in the fruits from your best-mates-in fighting-all-things-bad: At least an Australian mfg will sell this stuff to you from down here. The irony of all of this is not lost on your poor Australian cousins, who can't buy similar gear from the U.S without incurring substantial extra costs, or even at all because there is a seeming belief amongst many dealers there that shipping gear to your principal ally and shipping gear to Yemen equals the same thing...

As for the rest of it, your economy is in the shitter and you need to skull drag yourselves out of it before you and the basket case euro-zone drag the rest of us under. Frankly, I don't much care if the EC collapses but I care very much about whether you guys spear in. However, I doubt that trying to move/keep the bulk of mfg back onshore will do anything helpful and would probably just kill the patient, unless your cost of living drops through the floor and people are willing to accept similar mfg wages to those paid in China and India. Won't happen and it's the same here with Mfg. We can't compete.



</div></div>It is possible the American Mfg's are afraid to ship to Aus due to the tarrifs you put on American goods, food to be sure. (I understand the Aus Gov. has agreed to start to do away with the high import taxes that they have been collecting on American goods). I on the other hand am glad to see your stuff coming in, if it is good, it will do well. LL has pointed out that these lowers are more like the cheap rings you get a walmart, so I hope the rest of your stuff turns out to be better. In any case, more builders fighting over market share will result in a better product, and a lower price for the end user.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

I've never seen the DBM system being discussed, so can't comment - but it wouldn't surprise me if the quality was lower. That would be in keeping with Australian firearms parts mfg these days (with a few notable exceptions). There isn't much market down here to build a mfg base on, given the completely idiotic gun laws.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Its not the foreign origin, its price. If the AW dbm was priced like the others on the market, this would be a non issue.
There are a bunch of foreign made goods used by a great deal of shooters here.

Now, if the sponsorship rule was exploited, then that was wrong. Although, it seems to have been exploited by those that set it up and not by AW.

As Glen (Seekins) was quoted, "Good shit sells itself," the same is true for crappy products that most assuredly reveal themselves and disappear. Only time will tell with the AW product.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

By looking at their website, Atlasworks seems to be a decent sized manufacturer. They mention employing Lean Manufacturing principles (which is the biggest reason for Toyota's great success IMO) and large scale capabilities.

I'm guessing the Lean Manufacturing is the reason they're able to offer the bottom metal at such a reduced price. If the other manufacturers (or shops they are outsourcing to) ran their shops at peak efficiency, I'm sure they could reduce their prices as well.

The beauty of a free-market society is that, eventually, they'll have to in order to remain competitive.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

I think that figuring costs down to the last penny is counterproductive. You invest too much time and money in a task which produces questionable returns to the process.

I also think that if any of us think we can do a better job, we could very plausibly put our money where our mouths are and attempt the task. I also suspect that considerable learning would inevitibly follow.

People often lament the long wait/lead times on custom orders for our sorts of products; but the plain truth is that those long waits serve as a clear reminder that those products could, and maybe should, be priced higher. It would shorten the lead times, allow more profit, and probably still keep those production processes running at full capacity.

Some of us would probably not be satisfied even if the profit motive were completely eliminated; but that would put us into an entirely different economic system. Ask the Russians how well their version worked.

Greg
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

It would seem someone has put their money where their mouth is. Hence the start of this thread, as well as the comments in the other group buy thread.

 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

jesus. this is ridiculous. this american pompous bullshit is getting out of hand. im as patriotic as the next guy, probably more so than most, but this is a global economy. its the 21st century folks. other buyers and sellers around the world. communication and transport is cheaper and easier than ever. you don't have to just compete with people in a 30 mile radius anymore. wake up and get a clue.

buy american? why? over the last 50-60 years all the cry babies have convinced the government (sometimes with monetary contributions and votes) to pass ridiculous labor laws and increased minimum wage to stupid proportions and it has systematically killed american production capacity. those who still do produce do so at higher costs, and thats a shame, but it doesn't mean i am obligated to buy from them. i am not going to pay more out of my pocket because someone guilt trips me into basically supporting the stupid crap this government has passed over decades. can't survive producing in america? then get the fuck out of the business or diversify more. preferrably the latter.

i hold no ill will towards others charging more. ill never buy a night force scope because although good scopes i think you can have a comparable one for half the cost. just my opinion. i don't think theyre bastards for charging what they do, but im still not going to buy it. people can charge what they want, but don't bitch when competition comes in. jesus. its like a freaking labor union in here. "im blah blah blah so im entitled to your money". this is the same shit obama is using as we speak. if you don't do x, y, or z, youre unamerican, or not doing your part, or some other bull shit.

cdi's group buy is nice. im glad theyre doing it. i have no problem with them charging whatever they want, more power to them. but to call out competition and call into question competition's integrity because they have a lower price. give me a fucking break. ill never buy a single thing from them ever due to that nonsense. thats the same garbage people are spewing here. oh it must be cheap crap since its lower priced than other peoples stuff. please.

i completely understand the rules about not doing a GB if not a vendor. makes complete sense. that part i have no problem with. the GB should have been done out of this forum and not overly marketed. i agree with that part had i known the rules. but every other part of this is beyond retarded. especially when you consider that half the gun parts made these days, including the industry standards for some guns, are made out of the USA.

compete or don't. but don't sit there and bitch about competition.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm referring to this, specifically: The Atlasworx DBM group buy for a DBM system that is similar to all other (Badger, CDi) for less than $100 shipped. Atlasworx is an Australian company who has released a product that is apparently comparable in quality and craftsmanship to the Badger and CDi DBM at less than half the price. CDi started their own group buy for their DBM and reduced the price from $209 to $129 in response to the Atlasworx group buy price for $87 shipped.

Now I've seen quite a few comments being thrown around in those threads by both CDi and others supporting the "buy American" ideal. Here's one comment from CDi's thread that's fairly representative of the rest:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant believe there are replies on this, of all boards, advocating the purchase foreign goods over products produced by American labor. Fuckin' sorry state of affairs. Talk about shame.... </div></div>

So according to these guys, it would be bad to spend $87 for a product from an Australian company and we SHOULD be spending $129 or $209 for the same product simply because it's made in America instead of Australia.

What I find hypocritical about this position is that I don't see the same level of outrage when it involves a $1000-3000 scope instead of a $200 piece of DBM. Nightforce is owned by "Lightforce USA", which (ironically) is an Australian company. Why no outrage when someone advocates buying a Nightforce optic?

How about Schmidt & Bender; a German company? Why no call-outs for those spending $3K on a German-made scope to spend that money on an "American-made" product?

It doesn't even end with scopes. How about rifles? Where's the outrage for those buying a Sako TRG 42, or a FN SPR? </div></div>

SPRs are made in America.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tmckay2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i completely understand the rules about not doing a GB if not a vendor. makes complete sense. that part i have no problem with. the GB should have been done out of this forum and not overly marketed. i agree with that part had i known the rules. but every other part of this is beyond retarded. especially when you consider that half the gun parts made these days, including the industry standards for some guns, are made out of the USA.

compete or don't. but don't sit there and bitch about competition. </div></div>

Maybe I need to re-read the rules, but I don't see where "ONLY" vendors can do a group buy, and it is not moderated as such. There are group buys right now being put on by NON VENDORS for NON VENDORS. But the other group buy seems to be a problem.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tell me whats a realistic profit a guy can expect per hour on 4mil$ worth of equipment? What kind of a net profit should one expect on their sales?

Whats a realistic markup of a product for a wholesaler, distributor, and dealer system?


</div></div>

Glen,
Being self-employed I have always found it amusing/annoying that peoples perception of reasonable pay/profit depends on weather the money is coming into their wallet or going out of it.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Myself, I certainly try to support site vendors. Reputation is very important to me, arguably its everything. Manufacturers and vendors around here have great reputations, those that don't, disappear.

For whatever amount in dollars, how much reputation are you willing to give up?

I depend on my gear and will stick with reputable companies. Seekins is one of those companies.

 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Side</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Myself, I certainly try to support site vendors. Reputation is very important to me, arguably its everything. Manufacturers and vendors around here have great reputations, those that don't, disappear.

For whatever amount in dollars, how much reputation are you willing to give up?

I depend on my gear and will stick with reputable companies. Seekins is one of those companies.

</div></div>
I just posted regarding some poor customer service on the optics board. It appears to me, several hide members freely admit the company in question has the worst possible customer service, yet they still purchase their products! I believe the best bang for your buck will determine the winners and losers in a given market (quality being equal). Custom order usually take longer than stock items, but not for the reasons often given. Some times a company makes "runs" of a product, you'll have to wait until the next run-they usually don't put it that way. Or they "pre sell", collect money, or CC info, thus allowing them to make a purchase from those actually building the product-again they don't usually present it this way. It is usually presented as, "we're making them as fast as we can, the demand is just that high, etc. etc." In reality they are actually doing a "group buy", when the orders reach a certain number, then they okay the build, the difference is, they are not offering a discount, just increasing their profits. Good business? Sure, if you can have others finance your inventory, even before you buy it, it is great business. Is it generally presented this way, NO. The next time you want in a "great price", but you'll have to pay now, and wait, you should realize the company putting this "deal" together is purchasing the product after a given number of sales have taken place-not due to the "huge demand".