The Sons of Liberty

[W54/XM-388]

I will not lead my friends and neighbors out onto any limbs. When they pick their direction, I will be moving in their midst.

Are you really all so sure you'd like to prove me wrong?

I don't know how many among us have actually been in a shooting war. I have. I think that when you get there for the first time, you learn things you just can't put into stirring words on an internet forum; things you don't ever want any young folks to have to learn.

Greg

I agree with you actually quite a bit, now is the time for words and calm but firm discussion and trying to win over the hearts and minds of as many people as we can & fighting the good fight in the political arena with words, support, money, time and a whole lot of effort. It is an uphill battle but there is still hope & hopefully still time to prepare.

I think however if worse does come to pass and it turns into a hot shooting war between a government that decides to become a dictatorship and a large amount of the citizens who fight for the constitution, it will be nothing like even those who have been to war recently have seen, it will be probably worse than Stalingrad / Yugoslavia all mashed up together, there will be no holding back on either side.

There is one other thing to think about however. Who stands to gain most from America falling into civil war regardless of the outcome?
Imagine if somebody had been able to get America started on a civil war right before the start of WWII (and refrained from attacking the USA so as not to bring the people together), it wouldn't have mattered who won the civil war, by the time it was settled, the United States (or Divided States) would have been alone on their own little continent while the rest of the world land mass was in the firm grasp of the 3rd Reich and the Japanese ruled Asia as the German's allies, and America would not have had either the will or the capability to do anything but defend their own shores for a significant time period.

The other problem that everyone will realize really quickly if things go bad, is that too many of these "Militia" and "Patriot" type groups are lead by people who have a banana republic style idea of government and plan to simply be the new dictators. How many of these self styled "Militia" leaders actually will be happy with all the local citizens walking around well armed once they are in control of an area? Do you think they will actually really obey the constitution and understand that the constitution states that the government only exists by the will of the people and will be happy to go retire when the local citizens vote them out of their positions and go back to their normal lives?

 

[McCrazy]

Honestly guys, I don't think things will be as bad as you think with utter chaos and total devastation. If push came to shove, the gov wouldn't have many people to shove with. The military and police won't sacrifice their lives to strip Americans of their freedom. The government types who work in offices and make policies won't come out and do it. The ATF/FBI/BP/NSA are the only ones that may try confiscation but they don't have the numbers to get much accomplished against a united American people.

Someone stated earlier something to the effect that the government only has power while we support them. We have supported them and they are strong. If we choose to no longer support them they are weak. Simple.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I told you folks I feel the same frustrations. It pushes my buttons too, no less so than any of you who could still be classified sane.

I also told you that every penny I have, every penny I spend, comes from Uncle Sugar.

Yet still, I speak up as I do.

My father taught me about 'the last refuge'; it being the last resort when one's back is already in the corner.

Simply, he said, "Profanity is the last refuge of the illiterate". I took this to mean that a truly literate individual can convey their meaning without any need for resorting to profanity. If you can't, you need learn more about your own language; the words you need seek are simply waiting there for you to utter.

He also said, "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent". I took this to mean that a truly competent individual can achieve their aims without needing to indulge violence. If you can't, you need to think further and employ less strenuous means. They exist, but they are not so handy or simplistic.

Perhaps you need to bone up on Unintended Consequences, and/or The Window War. Because of agreements made with this site's management regarding the conditions limiting my continued presence here, I will not post them, but leave it to you to do your own Google-ing.

Author's Postscript: The story above is one possible future for this country. There are others far worse. As J.R. Nyquist recently wrote of the Elian Gonzalez federal kidnapping:


"Specific events, regardless of their actual importance to history, sometimes capture the human imagination. In doing this, they become rallying points for masses of people. They become pivotal to political careers. Such events can bring about the collapse of governments or determine the outcome of elections....Except for clueless and apathetic persons, America has been split into two hostile ideological camps. One is the anti-communist or anti-statist camp, which looks to traditional moral values, the Constitution, a strong family unit and the free market. The other camp is socialist or "progressive" in its outlook, globalist and environmentalist in its policies."

There is no reconciling the two futures these camps represent. One or the other will win in the end. The war up to now has been waged in the political and social arena. The time is fast approaching when this political and social "war" will spill over into armed conflict-- real civil war. If it does, it will happen mostly because everyone thinks it impossible. For sixty years, the liberals have used our respect for the law against us. Each time they moved the line of law to further their agenda, breaking off a bit of the Constitution, we, as law-abiding citizens have backed up grumbling but complying. And why should they stop pushing us back from our God-given liberties? We've never pushed back to stop them. We have been TOO law-abiding.

Remember one thing: Adolf Hitler was elected, and the Nazis passed laws justifying every horrible act they later committed. In such a country, law-breaking is not a crime but a virtue. Before we get too far down that road, perhaps a little window-breaking is in order. Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed. Let us avoid that if we can. But history holds such windows of opportunity open only so long, and ours is rapidly closing. Perhaps by breaking the window now, we can escape the horrible alternative. And if in the unlikely event my modest story should become fact, somewhere The Sons of Liberty will be smiling.

Mike Vanderboegh The Window War

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

People think an act of public defiance is a sign of bravery. It is not.

To find one's bravery, one must first find one's deepest fears. One must then voluntarily immerse themselves deep within those fears.

Bravery is what one does for the good while they are deep within that immersion. Without outright fear, there can be no bravery.

All else is bravado.

Bravado will get someone killed; if you're fortunate, it will only be you.

Bravery may help save someone; if you're fortunate, that might even be you.

Save your brave for when someone besides yourself needs it.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

There are many steps I could be taking, ala the preppers, to gird myself for violence. But I will not, because I reject violence as a tool for meaningful change. It may cost me dearly before all this resolves itself. If so, I will pay that cost willingly (not cheerfully), because I deem the alternatives intolerable. That is a personal stand and a sacrifice I make solely on my own, and I do not expect others to follow.

I say, ..."before all this resolves itself."

None of us (or they) will resolve this. It will be society, as a whole, as a melting pot, which will achieve a new equilibrium. If that is a resolution, it is, it will be, a fleeting one; for that is what history is: a discrete point an undeviating line of progress. Progress does not deviate, it finds its own level, it follows its own path, trades speed for momentum, maintains an unalterable meld of mass and momentum. We are passengers; willing or not, contributory or not. We may contribute, but none of us dictates.

Do not make the error of insisting that the universe takes note of this minuscule speck of a planet, or alters its outcomes to suit this species needs. We take the notes, we accept the alterations. It is our role, and it is a good one.

Greg

 

[pawprint2]

“Cowards die many times before their deaths, but the valiant never taste of death but once.”
― William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

 

[pawprint2]

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."-Mao Zedong. It would be very difficult for anyone with any real historical understanding to argue that he [Mao] didn't end-up controlling more people than anyone else in history, he may have know a thing or two more than some modern pontificators. In fact, when Mao was taking over China, he loved those that just didn't believe in standing up for themselves, made his job a lot easier.

 

[KYpatriot]

Greg, I respect your view of the Constitution and liberty and your prior service. With that said I find your view on violence as inconsistent on a societal level. On a personal level, it is certainly possible for someone to desire and respect freedom but at the same time be unwilling to commit violence to preserve it. Whether the refusal to fight is fear or a personal conviction that no principle is worth killing another human being over will matter little to his neighbor. On a societal level, that view, if held by everyone facing a tyranny, will lead to that group's genocide unless they really weren't facing tyranny in the first place. In summary, if a society really is facing a tyrannical threat but thinks "nothing is worth war" out of respect for life, then their position is totally illogical.

An ironic truth of human existence is this: those who will not kill to prevent tyranny do not actually respect life, because they enable evil governments who are responsible for more death than all the criminals, rapists and murderers who have ever lived, combined. There is no escaping the consequences for the group, even though the decision is an individual one. If it were to become obvious someday that tyranny is at the front door, I can either fight or not. That decision is a personal one that we all have the right to make for ourselves, but we must not kid ourselves about the consequences...the costs of deciding not to fight are never ours alone. The entire society bears the burden of my choice; people I have never met, my neighbors, my friends, even my children.

There are only two kinds of interactions between men - reason or force. The moral and principled man uses reason as long as he can. If the power of words and persuasion do not win the argument then the moral man attempts non-violent resistance as further attempt at reason. However, in the end we cannot choose what method will win the day, the least moral man does. If the immoral rejects all appeals to reason and resorts to force against us, then we can meet force with force or lose. Some see self-sacrificial refusal to kill as an honorable, even noble act of respect for life. Perhaps walking to the ovens alone could be viewed as a moral victory, but thats never how it happens, and I respectfully submit there can be no honor in willingly making that walk when a child must walk beside you.

 

[pmclaine]

Our Revolution is understood in this country as a romantic adventure that was clean and just. That is the line of bullshit we have been fed through our public education system. Truth be told it was brutal, Combatants were spiked to trees and the breasts of one loyalist woman were chopped off and nailed to the wall of her bedroom. This is the reality of conflict since day one. I have not faced it but many of you have.

I understand the sentiments concerning this discussion of what would the FF do but it seems that a step is being skipped. The FF talked for a long time before acting and it wasnt until they were acted upon that they resorted to violence.

Right now this fight is in New York anyone that feels so strongly about their freedoms to want to take up arms should first be donating to NYSPRA and SCOPE to defeat the SAFE law. That despotic law has a solid chance of being struck down and that is the correct fight for this time and place.

It is time to check fire. When those that can not live within the restraints of our Constitutional Republic leave Gandhi bleeding his last on Lexington Green than that is the time to let slip the dogs of war. The British desire for a small tactical victory was a strategic blunder that captured the sympathy of the fence sitters and allowed the 2-3% of committed revolutionaries to draw from their strength and win the war.

In this case that big population in the middle, greater in numbers than either opposing side, will move rapidly away from the side that uses violence first.

Referencing past history those populations that succumbed to a minority despot did so because they lived under a much longer conditioning to the horror that was coming and the population was susceptible to the violence. Those populations did not enjoy the level of freedoms we currently enjoy. Our sheep would not be so willing to see their neghbors store fronts broken in a repeat of Kristallnacht. Not that forces arent trying to make them amenable to that use of violence but we are not there yet.

If this current battle to defend the Constitution is peacefully settled (and it will be) the thing to do is to put greater efforts in to rolling back the incursions. The firearms community is united we need to join with the other Constitutionally minded defenders, even the ACLU, and convince them that our aims are all similar and we need to work together.

Maybe a pipe dream but this is the dream stage.

 

[pawprint2]

The phrase "Appeal to Heaven" is used multiple times by John Locke in his work, Two Treatises of Government. The phrase connotes that after all other alternatives of seeking justice have been exhausted, only an "appeal to heaven" remains.
The "appeal to heaven" or sometimes written as "appeal to God", was a common theme in the Revolution, usually seen as a motto under the Liberty Tree on various flags, what was "Good" in Washington's time, is Good today, right and wrong, Good and Evil, haven't changed.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I see it as an appeal to Providence. We float our bread upon the waters of change. I neither condemn nor avoid violence, I simply counsel patience until it becomes inarguably the last remaining option.

 

[Veer_G]

The phrase "Appeal to Heaven" is used multiple times by John Locke in his work, Two Treatises of Government. The phrase connotes that after all other alternatives of seeking justice have been exhausted, only an "appeal to heaven" remains.
The "appeal to heaven" or sometimes written as "appeal to God", was a common theme in the Revolution, usually seen as a motto under the Liberty Tree on various flags, what was "Good" in Washington's time, is Good today, right and wrong, Good and Evil, haven't changed.

The foreign characters in my signature below are a translation of the 22nd stanza of a letter, in the form of a poem, called the Zafarnama, which was originally written in ancient Persian. Its essence is this:

When all means of reasoning with an enemy have failed, it is just and holy to take up the sword.
​

This is where we are. Factions within our government are increasingly intractable, and apparently seek to defraud us and render our Constitution's Bill of Rights worthless through legislation and quite possibly judicial opinion and presidential edict.

The lawful process for Constitutional change is quite clearly explained within the Constitution itself. Defend the Constitution, and one is on the side of right and reason. Trample it, and reap a bitter harvest. There is no discussion.

 

[Ken1941]

"Perhaps you need to bone up on Unintended Consequences, and/or The Window War. Because of agreements made with this site's management regarding the conditions limiting my continued presence here, I will not post them, but leave it to you to do your own Google-ing."

If you have not had a chance to read Unintended Consequences by John Ross, I have found it on line. I'll find the link and paste it.

http://www.zjstech.net/~ddixson/Unintended_Consequences.pdf

The story is a bit aged as it was written in the 90's, but you will probably not be able to stop reading it. It's about the Gun Culture, the Warsaw Getto, the real story of Ruby Ridge and Waco, many abuses of power, evil people, good people, patriots and traitors, the result of being "in for a penny, in for a pound", and the reaction of the American people.

 

[KYpatriot]

I see it as an appeal to Providence. We float our bread upon the waters of change. I neither condemn nor avoid violence, I simply counsel patience until it becomes inarguably the last remaining option.

Then we are on the same page Greg. Pmclaine, good post as well I think your analysis is right on the money. We have Paw channeling Locke and Veer accurately explaining what has been at stake for millennia.

The patriotism, understanding of the principles of liberty, and the resolve tempered with restraint and wisdom in this thread makes me proud to be here.

 

[sharac]

Yugo: Of this i can speak volumes. I've experienced 10days of short conflict (some of us call it "our weekend war") and seen stuff first hand and learned a lot about those other less fortunate nations of Yugo second hand.

I'm writing stuff here because i feel that what you're in store for is something we've already "bought" and perhaps if at least one reader starts to think about it because of my post i did good. I could go into details of hows and dos but let me just say that in Yugo there was and old custom to keep at least one gun in cellar (hidden of course as guns were controlled) - this lesson learned by our forefathers when Turks partied here and in more modern times when Germans decided to have fun and Yugo casualty percentage of population was one of the highest in WWII. Fast forward to 1990+ and even though people were armed all hell broke loose because it was not just a simple ethnic conflict but a ghastly free for all where (not all or majority but many) criminal elements ruled and made war on everyone and everything. It was a giant clusterfuck fueled by stalled economy, external influences and unresolved ethnic and political conflicts (sounds familiar??). There was no moral high ground only right was waking up next morning and only wrong not waking up next morning. Make no mistake there are situations where talking will be only a waste of air.

I understand Greg completely your point and i think your proposed solution is the key -> get enough people to step outside the system, stop using it, stop supporting it simply quit as much as you can and not feed the beast. However if that happens (and to certain extent it already has -> taxing, (insertyourfavoritenickname)care, inflation, prohibition of this and that, end of rule of law, police brutality etc...) the system will come for you and then all the talk and all the Ghandis and Mandelas will not be of use as only language that will be understood will be the one spoken at 2800fps+.

I wonder when even this discussions will no longer be just monitored and recorded but acted upon i assume not much longer...

 

[Guest]

Make no mistake there are situations where talking will be only a waste of air.

Been that way for a long time. Right and wrong has taken a back seat to the whats in it for me folks. Be they ticts or paid bloated voters who have never provided for the table, yet suck the life blood from those who do. It is not by chance folks are moving their funds from this country at all.
The writing is on the wall and the desires of lackeys, weak and those who always present the cheap talk while using an eraser there after is about to be tested.

The tarp funds were all about kicking the shit sideways until the next group was in power. They have tried every trick in the book to keep the card house upright but the smoke and mirror shell game is over.
A cleansing is coming to a street near you,... We have watched, helped, and pushed the rest of the world into what we are about to go threw. The main difference is we are armed, and there are those who will die for what they believe in. When it's over I just hope the leadership whoever they may be, will not want to re-live history a third time. The first was not civil at all, and the second will be less so, but parasites will kill the host if left to breed and suck the life blood, UN-checked.