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Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

500grains

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Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 20, 2008
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dirt nap
A Walmart employee who shot a co-worker in the head on a loading dock while at the store is released. The County Prosecutor said that 49 year old Craig Schmidt acted lawfully under the Montana’s “Castle Law” Doctrine. Under that law, a person has a natural right to use firearms in self defense, and doesn’t have to call 911 before using what is considered justifiable force.

Schmidt was facing charges of assault with the firearm, but the law's existence required that the police investigate further to see if Schmidt believed his life was in danger. That further investigation showed that Schmidt was within his rights in drawing and firing the firearm.

Schmidt and 32 year old Daniel Lara got into an argument about Lara taking an extended break. Schmidt bumped Lara’s shoulder. Mr. Lara took that as a beginning of a fight and started attacking him.


Schmidt was shoved around and punched by Lara. Lara also hit Schmidt extremely hard twice in the head. As the hitting and shoving of Schmidt continued, Schmidt was pushed down and fell on a metal rack. Schmidt feared that the next blow would seriously injure him, so he drew his sidearm and fired. Schmidt said that he couldn’t retreat any further, and was almost on his back. He believed he was in store for a severe beating.

His .25 caliber round hit Lara’s forehead, but didn’t penetrate his skull. Witnesses called Lara the aggressor, and the medical reports showed that Schmidt had serious injuries from being continually hit by Lara.

Also, Schmidt was 6’2’ and weighed 145 pounds as opposed to Lara being 5’10” and 260 pounds. The prosecutor didn’t believe a jury would convict Schmidt.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

"...but didn’t penetrate his skull..."

Better ammunition and shot placement.

Castle Doctrine vs threat level:
Is it within the rights of the individual to escalate force with weapons when only fists are being used? Some states would say no while others say yes. An intresting point to say the least as well as what each state says about Castle Doctrine
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

I think the angle of impact is critical on the skull. Like angled armor. The femur is supposed to be stronger than concrete.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

I wasn't aware Walmart let firearms in their stores. We have open carry in AZ and there is a sign out front of walmart no firearms and what is even better is they sell them and you still can't carry into the store.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmokinAce</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wasn't aware Walmart let firearms in their stores. We have open carry in AZ and there is a sign out front of walmart no firearms and what is even better is they sell them and you still can't carry into the store. </div></div>

No offense intended, but does "Wallmart Law" count for anything??
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmokinAce</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wasn't aware Walmart let firearms in their stores. We have open carry in AZ and there is a sign out front of walmart no firearms and what is even better is they sell them and you still can't carry into the store. </div></div>

No offense intended, but does "Wallmart Law" count for anything?? </div></div>

No it most certainly doesn't just found it ironic is all.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

I use to have a .25 and had seen bullets bounce off of beer bottles at less than 10ft.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

Shoulda spent more time at the dojo - sorry - don't think that's justifiable...

On top of that he should be prosecuted for using an airsoft on a guy...

(I realize it was a 25 cal, about the most worthless caliber ever invented)...

That fight coulda been over in 4 seconds with a proper technique applied.....


He started the fight by bumping his shoulder, personally he should get assault 1st degree...
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

A 65 year old <span style="font-style: italic">former hell-raiser</span> here in my little AZ town has two wicked lookin' scars on his mostly bald head and they start just above his eye sockets and run about 8 -10 inches around the top of his skull.

Yep! You guessed it---the mighty <span style="font-weight: bold">.25 ACP</span> strikes again.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

He actually hit the guy? The 25's I've shot couldn't hit a man if they were held against his body.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

unfortunately I know the shooter, FORMER coworker, in his case he couldnt fight his way out of a wet paper bag and everyone knew it. built like a stick. there are some interesting little bits in the law here regarding assault so am unsure if He could have been charged but if it whent to trial he would have been acquitted (historically similar cases prior to the castle doctrine have resulted in "not guilty" ) not saying he didnt start the conflict but with the way the new law was written all he had to do was prove reasonable fear and was going to beat the charge. is it right? not sure and not my problem. I am just glad i dont work with him anymore

ETA His weapon choice reflects the mentality that resulted in him being a FORMER coworker. IMO he is dumb as a post
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

Well, no one killed and nobody in jail. They can do it again !
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ETA His weapon choice reflects the mentality that resulted in him being a FORMER coworker. IMO he is dumb as a post </div></div>

Was it a Raven .25? Please tell me it was a Raven. (or maybe a Jennings or a High Point)

raven.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ArcticLight, you make me wonder sometimes..... </div></div>

Why's that? LOL

I too would rather carry a 22LR than a 25, and if you go out of your way to piss someone off and then get your ass beat and have to draw a gun - sorry....he could either not start a fight, LEARN to fight, or take his beating that he initiated.

Pretty clear to me.

You gotta remember I spend 4 days a week in a dojo and I'm 4 mo's out from testing for my first Dan in Shotokan.....so to see people try to fight like that....kinda childish to me.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

Are you in the Bob Graves group?

Who will be grading the dan test?
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...but didn’t penetrate his skull..."

Better ammunition and shot placement.

Castle Doctrine vs threat level:
Is it within the rights of the individual to escalate force with weapons when only fists are being used? Some states would say no while others say yes. An interesting point to say the least as well as what each state says about Castle Doctrine </div></div>

In Kentucky if you believe your life is in danger you are justified in using deadly force. If someone has you on the ground and is going to curb-stomp you, it would be justified to draw and fire on the aggressor. That being said, you can't start a fight or try and escalate it to where you are able to use deadly force. We also have the Castle Doctrine, and it applies to your vehicle as well (provided you're in it when someone attempts to break in and/or kill ya).

The Wal-Marts here don't have any signs saying guns can't be carried on their premises. The KRS prohibits those anyway.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

Here in Wi. we OC,there were some asst managers and managers that tried the No Guns crap and a few letters to the Regional cleared that up real quick.

We dont have any Castle Doctrine,but by the same token we are also not required to retreat first.

I think its kinda funny a guy thats 4in taller,and there fore havin more reach cant or couldnt do a better job of protectin himself in a good ol' fashion schoolyard/playground slapdown.

Do a halfway decent job at bustin a guys nose and it can take the fight out of someone pretty damn quick.

Just my .02

308Panther
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you in the Bob Graves group?

Who will be grading the dan test? </div></div>

No - not in Bob Graves group -

My Dai Shihan is in Hawaii - he took traditional Shotokan and intermixed Philipino street fighting (Escrima/Arnis) into it, my current sensei is a 7th Dan, Shihan - he will be doing the testing.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

6'2" and 145 is super skinny. As far as the .25 is concerned, keep in mind that it seems to have been only fired once.

Raven, Jennings, or hi-junk,it still fired and still seems to have been accurate enough to have hit the target(just guessing here).

A couple more shots might have ended Mr. Lara's fighting days permanently. A .25 is only slightly inferior to a .22 LR and there is an extensive thread on this sight referencing the "lethality" of the .22.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

Heard a guy say " If someone ever shoots me with a 25 and I find out about it, He is in for the beating of his life" and he meant it.
 
Re: Thinking of 25 acp for self defense?

I met a man a few years ago that had a lump behind his ear that contained a .25 slug that had been fired at him from behind. It travelled around his skull under the skin. It did feel flattened out a little.
My advice start your search at the top (.45 acp) and start down until you can conceal it, handle it, afford it. and that the one. Look hard for at least a .380 the same size as your choice of .25. As stated previously a .22lr is even a better choice and with greater capacity.

Bottom line, when all else is equal 'SIZE DOES MATTER'.