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Thinking of shooting f class

Re: Thinking of shooting f class






If it was just like shooting with a sling then why not just shoot with a sling. Thing is, it's not just like shooting with a sling and no F-Class shooter is going to sling-up to prove me wrong. [/quote]

Sterling,
Just a question... Are you willing to take the sling off and prove others wrong? Do you think F Class is easy and beneath you?
This is what I alluded to in my earlier post. There is room for everyone without measuring ones manhood with a ruler as to which one is better. If you don't like F Class, don't shoot it. Easy enough. If you think your way is always best, that is your opinion. It's like ice cream. Different flavors for everyone and not many agree which is best. Choose your flavor and move on. Don't go around trying to convince everyone, especially the ones whom have tried it, that one way is the ONLY way to achieve rifle greatness.
This is my opinion.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Sterling Shooter,

Before we get much further, have you ever shot a F-class match?
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

For those here who enjoy F-Class, knock yourself out. But don't kid yourself about it being in the same league of skilled disciplines as NRA LR match or any/any. But, if it were, then what point for it at the National Matches, just sling-up and enter the Wimbledon Cup event. Or remove the scope for irons plus sling and enter the Leech Cup event. Shouldn't be hard, after all, the target is twice as big. And, me shoot F-Class, perhaps when I loose my vision. Right now, I'm taking my Service Rifle to the long line. With it I am challenged in all manner of things, which keeps it interesting.

holdoff,

Have you ever shot the Service Rifle at LR, have you ever participated in the NRA LR National Matches? Are you alluding that because I do not enter F Class events I do not have an understanding for its minutia? I've shot em all, except F-Class, since it is physically impossible to take a firearm to an NRA LR event and shoot two disciplines simultaneously; and, as long as my vision allows for me to develop my skills with the Service Rifle, I have no interest or motivation to shoot F-Class. In mid range and LR practice I have shot with scope and all sorts of appropriate artificial supports to appraise equipment. With the aid of bipod, bench-rest, or sandbags, I can get a better feel for equipment capability than shooting such equipment with irons and sling. It gets me a better result than I can get with irons and sling. Hmmm.. Must be easier, I guess.

All,

Through the aid of scope and peculiar artificial support the F-Class shooter can minimize error associated with human elements, such as vision and bone support. On the other hand, LR Service Rifle competition requires the shooter to minimize vision and position errors by developing picture memory and motor memory skills. These skills are not as likely to be developed fully from F-Class competition, since the scope and peculiar artificial support precludes the necessity. In other words, these aids to minimize human deficiency make good shooting easier for any one regardless of their marksmanship ranking. But, the National LR Championships is all about testing and celebrating the human element. It serves to distinguish those who have persisted to perfect their performance, overcoming their human deficiency. This is what makes shooting F-Class in the National Match venue unlikely, since F-Class is a test and celebration of something else.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Sterling, you are wrong on this issue. Its not who's dick is bigger. Hitting q 5" circle at a 1000 yards with 308 and 155s is hard as fuck, off a bipod. Hitting a 10" circle at 1000 yards with a sling and irons is hard as fuck. Guys doing either and switching over have proven this time and time again. I have done a bunch of both.

I believe a well rounded shooter should do as many disciplines as he/she can do.

Cutting down any discipline is beneath us all
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

This discussion has ended.

Sterling Shooter is the stud to outstud them all.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, you are wrong on this issue. Its not who's dick is bigger. Hitting q 5" circle at a 1000 yards with 308 and 155s is hard as fuck, off a bipod. Hitting a 10" circle at 1000 yards with a sling and irons is hard as fuck. Guys doing either and switching over have proven this time and time again. I have done a bunch of both.

I believe a well rounded shooter should do as many disciplines as he/she can do.

Cutting down any discipline is beneath us all</div></div>

Not putting anyone down, and, if your remember, just a few years ago the F-Class target was same as NRA LR. Everybody shot so well on that target, it had to be made smaller. Why did folks so easily nail that target and not do same shooting irons--it was easier to get good hits with the aid of artificial support and scope. That's the bottom-line, the human element is not as paramount to success (targets similar) with F-Class as other traditional LR events. The new target with smaller scoring rings will challenge all for countering wind; but, match and any/any does that and more, since they solve marksmanship issues to a greater degree with a physical response rather than a mechanical one.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, me shoot F-Class, perhaps when I loose my vision. Right now, I'm taking my Service Rifle to the long line. With it I am challenged in all manner of things, which keeps it interesting.
</div></div>
Then why are you here?

For this?

blackwater.jpg
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Yes,

Why indeed would Sterling Shooter, who states that he has no intrest in F-class, take the time to post in this thread?
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mitch1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am shooting a rem 700 in 308 cal with consistent 1.25" 3 shot groups @ 200yds. Should I even consider shooting in a f class match yet. I am new to target shooting and would appreciate any advice and sorry if this is the wrong forum.</div></div>

In general, if you want to develop your marksmanship skills to an extraordinary level, you will be both mentally and physically challenged. Without competition, to both test and celebrate your effort it's doubtful you'll persist. It's just too hard when there's no reward for the effort.

You may want to develop basic marksmanship skills with iron sights and sling. Service Rifle competition demands knowledge for everything important to good shooting. Some of these concepts are not as discernible for their importance when shooting with a scope and other forms of artificial support. So, while F-Class can be entertaining, it may not serve to reveal what you know, or don't know overall, as would something like NRA LR match or any/any competitions. </div></div>

My interest here is to inform a shooter, who is interested in becoming an extraordinary marksman, of another, perhaps more rewarding, route to his destination.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, me shoot F-Class, perhaps when I loose my vision. Right now, I'm taking my Service Rifle to the long line. With it I am challenged in all manner of things, which keeps it interesting.
</div></div>
Then why are you here?

For this?

blackwater.jpg
</div></div>

That's a very entertaining post proneshooter, but, is that all you've got to support your opinion on the matter? What would be the value in adding an F-Class match to the NRA LR Championships? Keep in mind the stated purpose for these events. And, how is F-Class competition a more revealing test for marksmanship knowledge and skills than match or any/any competition? Also, remember that competitions are not about bringing more folks into the shooting sports, their purpose is to reward disciplined shooters who have practiced to develop their skills.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The National Matches are about testing and celebrating marksmanship skill. It has it's traditions, and F-Class is not compatible with those, since F-Class is not seen as a greater test of skill than established events. </div></div>
As a former service rifle shooter and current fullbore and smallbore prone shooter I say.....

That is a crock of shite, and it stinketh

Seriously dude, the attitude is not called for.

Tell you what, you should show everyone up at the F class nationals, since it's such a low skill endeavor. Particularly for a service rifle HM/DR.

Where's the rolleyes smiley?</div></div>

Low skill endeavor? Those are not my words, they're yours. How do you get there from my statement? I said, "not seen as a greater test". Do you think F-Class is a greater test? If so, why not persuade rather than be juvenile about it?

My opinion is simply this: NRA LR match, any/any, and Service Rifle events better appraise a shooter's picture and motor memory skill development than does F-Class. If you don't agree with that assessment then, Dude, make your case.

One more thing, you earlier bolstered your opinion by mentioning that you are a former service rifle shooter. How far did you get with that? Since, you're basing opinions on experiences with that concept, what was your last rating, that's to say, how experienced did you get with it?
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

"Gentlemen, we must all hang together, or most assuredly we will hang seperately."

Jeez, guys, can we stop pissing in each other's Cheerios? I'm willing to accept that Sterling Shooter is a better marksman than I am, as evidenced by his accomplishments. I've got one national record and one state title, BFD since neither one really counts for anything.
F-Class is not better or worse than High Power. It is different. I shoot matches with HP shooters (I shoot F-Class) and there is none of this "I'm a High Master with irons so your skill set sucks compared to mine." attitude. One thing F-Class <span style="font-weight: bold">does</span> do better than HP, in my opinion, is get beginning shooters to the line. As somebody posted above, just bring your .308 and shoot. Should they stay with FTR, or go the any/any route, our sport is the better for having them there.
Sterling, I sincerely hope you don't display this attitude toward new shooters, regardless of dicipline.

To the OP, just go shoot! You'll learn a lot, have a good time, and be a better shot. Don't let the sling shooters get to you.


1911fan
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshooter70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Choose your flavor and move on. Don't go around trying to convince everyone, especially the ones whom have tried it, that one way is the ONLY way to achieve rifle greatness.
This is my opinion. </div></div>

Rifle greatness, is shooting a bullet with zero displacement in any condition and to any distance the bullet will get to nose-on. I have never been there, and I don't know therefore what sort of training/practice is appropriate to realize such a lofty goal. I do, however, know enough about LR to have an opinion about how developing skills through match, any/any and service rifle competition may be more helpful to a shooter, who wants to reach the highest plateaus of good shooting, than is likely from F-Class competition.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Gentlemen, we must all hang together, or most assuredly we will hang seperately."

Jeez, guys, can we stop pissing in each other's Cheerios? I'm willing to accept that Sterling Shooter is a better marksman than I am, as evidenced by his accomplishments. I've got one national record and one state title, BFD since neither one really counts for anything.
F-Class is not better or worse than High Power. It is different. I shoot matches with HP shooters (I shoot F-Class) and there is none of this "I'm a High Master with irons so your skill set sucks compared to mine." attitude. One thing F-Class <span style="font-weight: bold">does</span> do better than HP, in my opinion, is get beginning shooters to the line. As somebody posted above, just bring your .308 and shoot. Should they stay with FTR, or go the any/any route, our sport is the better for having them there.
Sterling, I sincerely hope you don't display this attitude toward new shooters, regardless of dicipline.

To the OP, just go shoot! You'll learn a lot, have a good time, and be a better shot. Don't let the sling shooters get to you.


1911fan</div></div>

No comparison/contrast between HP and F-Class has ever been made here by me. My opinion is regarding LR venues, of which, it is my opinion that match, any/any, or service rifle division will better force picture and motor memory development than likely from F-Class. period.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

You've been very helpful to the OP with your persistent bashing of F class. I have only ran into a couple of High Power shooters that shared your opinion and they weren't regarded very highly by even other high power shooters.

I do enjoy reading some of your posts about marksmanship, but your attitude of being better than everyone gets old quick. The fact that you are even posting in a thread about something you have never done to tell us how much better your discipline is speaks volumes.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've been very helpful to the OP with your persistent bashing of F class. I have only ran into a couple of High Power shooters that shared your opinion and they weren't regarded very highly by even other high power shooters.

I do enjoy reading some of your posts about marksmanship, but your attitude of being better than everyone gets old quick. The fact that you are even posting in a thread about something you have never done to tell us how much better your discipline is speaks volumes.</div></div>


I've never bashed F-Class here. Read from the beginning of this thread. My statements suggest that there are other venues for
LR marksmanship development, which may be of interest because of their contrast to F-Class, that's not bashing.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Can anyone tell me when was the last time someone got a confirmed kill at a thousand yards with iron sights?

I understand that the fundamentals never change, and once established can transfer and be used with other weapon systems. Competition is a great way to add "artificial stress", plus it's very humbling to get beat by eighty year old man with a cane. There is a lot to learn from those great shooters.

As far as F class get out there and try it, I enjoyed it very much, but it's just hard to choose which matches/discipline to shoot due to financial and family commitments. If you have the gear and time, why not get it out of the safe and put some rounds through that tube.

Good luck.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One more thing, you earlier bolstered your opinion by mentioning that you are a former service rifle shooter. How far did you get with that? </div></div>
Master, since you ask
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is my opinion that match, any/any, or service rifle division will better force picture and motor memory development than likely from F-Class. period. </div></div>
That opinion would have some weight if you had also spent any meaningful time shooting either F class or practical precision rifle matches.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is my opinion that match, any/any, or service rifle division will better force picture and motor memory development than likely from F-Class. period. </div></div>
That opinion would have some weight if you had also spent any meaningful time shooting either F class or practical precision rifle matches.

</div></div>

I don't need the weight of my experience, although concentrating in traditional LR events, it earned me an HM rating, I'll just use yours. Do you typically shoot match rifle or service rifle LR scores that are as high as your best F Class scores (on same NRA LR target)? Of course not. To be able to do that would require development of picture and motor memory skill to the consistency of a machine. And, since artificial support and scope make development of those skills seem moot, it's likely the F-Class shooter will not develop such skills, either perceiving no need to do so, or that he does not have a problem. On the other hand, for the best scores at LR with a Service Rifle, picture and motor memory skills are non dispensable. To shoot competitively at the highest level, learning these skills is forced. Maybe, since you do not have much experience in this arena however you did not know that.

Nevertheless, regardless of your experience, I'm sure you'll agree, the scope and artificial support will help anyone at any level to shoot better. Why, because they help the shooter better understand where the barrel is pointed, and help the shooter transfer the stability of the ground into the position. Without these aids, the shooter must muster human elements to understand where the barrel is pointed (picture memory), and maintain a consistent position (motor memory).

Now, these, I believe, are the facts about the matter, which contrast F-Class to traditional NRA LR, and indicate, the traditional course, placing more demands on human elements, inspires further marksmanship development. If you have a different view, that's to say you think my statement is not truthful, then argue for it. But, don't come back here as others have who don't have a point, or the skill to present one; and therefore, just tell me I'm wrong, I have an attitude, or that I'm gloating. Such comments serve only to suggest these F-Class shooters are not comfortable in their own shoes, since, apparently, not able to rebuke the substance of what I've said they, instead, just attack me personally.

Also, to those here who say my attitude dissuades shooters from getting into it, put your time and money where your mouth is. I've spent the last decade coaching and administering junior shooting programs in my community, and serving my state rifle and pistol association in various capacities. In addition, I developed and continue to host on occasion a free LR clinic to bring recognition for F-Class to those interested in getting into LR. Why, because I think F-Class is the most accomodating format for getting into LR. I also volunteer to instruct at M1 Garand Clinics and, assist the USAMU in their training of Soldiers participating in the SDM program.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Sterling, to use your argument about F Class being so easy at first we had to make our targets smaller. That is true at first we had the same target as Palma but changed to half the size because we had guys maxing target scores.

Now no one shoots a perfect score in F TR. It just does not happen. I do see many Palma guys shoot perfect numerical scores on the Long Range Palma Targets. Your argument that F TR is easier falls short right there. The Best National F TR scores are lower than the best National Palma Scores.

My best F Class score is lower than my best Palma Score to answer your question. The big named Palma guys who have shot F TR Class have had lower F TR Scores than Palma as well. A 308 on a .50 moa X ring is a challnege.

I dont care what a guy shoots I never have but this belief that this is a better test of a mans skill is just BS. Thousands of snipers across the world shoot everyday with a scope and bipod. They dont wear a 25lbs jacket, use 1200.00 iron sights with optical inserts, funny hats and a glove padded four inches thick. That is pretty far from "Pure Shooting"

If you honestly think F TR is easy you need to take a walk and see the earth is round as well.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, to use your argument about F Class being so easy at first we had to make our targets smaller. That is true at first we had the same target as Palma but changed to half the size because we had guys maxing target scores.

Now no one shoots a perfect score in F TR. It just does not happen. I do see many Palma guys shoot perfect numerical scores on the Long Range Palma Targets. Your argument that F TR is easier falls short right there. The Best National F TR scores are lower than the best National Palma Scores.

My best F Class score is lower than my best Palma Score to answer your question. The big named Palma guys who have shot F TR Class have had lower F TR Scores than Palma as well. A 308 on a .50 moa X ring is a challnege.

I dont care what a guy shoots I never have but this belief that this is a better test of a mans skill is just BS. Thousands of snipers across the world shoot everyday with a scope and bipod. They dont wear a 25lbs jacket, use 1200.00 iron sights with optical inserts, funny hats and a glove padded four inches thick. That is pretty far from "Pure Shooting"

If you honestly think F TR is easy you need to take a walk and see the earth is round as well.</div></div>

Read my last post again. Compare apples to apples (same target), you pick, the outcome will be the same. And don't change the argument. It's not about one format being easier than the other, it's about the outcomes possible. Those outcomes are clear, and suggest that scope and artificial support will get a better result than is possible from irons and sling. Is this not true? Therefore, to get close to the outcome possible with scope and artificial support, using irons and sling, the shooter must further develop picture and motor memory to a more mechanical level. Is this not true. It's all true, and not about F-Class being easy but rather traditional NRA LR requiring extraordinary marksmanship development, almost to a molecular level for a shooter to post scores comparable to scores posted with same skill applied to F-Class.

Now, your statement about me needing to take a walk, what value does that derogatory and inflammatory remark have here. I've not insulted you. Why not just support your position on the matter. You're a neat guy, and smart too, so, why not just counter my arguments. The answer is you can't. I have the facts on my side, scores from when F-Class targets and traditional NRA LR were the same prove my point over and over again. It's simple, for anyone at any level, shooting traditional LR, to the outcomes possible with F-Class, the shooter will need to develop picture and motor memory skills to a level commensurate to the value the scope and artificial support affords a shooter. Getting to such a level would indeed be hard. And it would certainly suggest attainment of skills not required in F-Class, since the scope and artificial support preclude the necessity.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Sterling Shooter, I think the ultimate test of your hypothesis would be for you to enter an easy match where scopes and artificial support allowed.

I will pay your entry fee at the next Intimidator or Head Hunter match at Thunder Valley Precision.

I will give you my rifle and loads (sub MOA combo) and dope for every target. It will be up to you to dope the wind, correct for angle fire, make the best of the firing point as you find it, and make the shots.

This weekend we had at least one KY shooter, so the drive is obviously doable.

This should be a piece of cake for someone at your level.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling Shooter, I think the ultimate test of your hypothesis would be for you to enter an easy match where scopes and artificial support allowed.

I will pay your entry fee at the next Intimidator or Head Hunter match at Thunder Valley Precision.

I will give you my rifle and loads (sub MOA combo) and dope for every target. It will be up to you to dope the wind, correct for angle fire, make the best of the firing point as you find it, and make the shots.

This weekend we had at least one KY shooter, so the drive is obviously doable.

This should be a piece of cake for someone at your level.

</div></div>

There you go again, instead of countering my argument, you distract from the issue. Why not just counter with some facts on the matter. It's obvious you can't so you resort to distractions and red herrings. My experience and credentials in LR has already been established. My opinion on the matter is an informed one. What appears to be the case here is that it is you who without much experience in traditional NRA LR do not comprehend the argument I"m making. Perhaps, you should take a Service Rifle to the long line, and just see for yourself, the outcome. I predict you will not shoot as well as you would with F-Class equipment, even thou the target has scoring rings twice the diameter of an F-Class target.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My opinion on the matter is an informed one. </div></div>
It cannot be. By your own admission you have never competed in F class. And I am willing to put money down on a bet that you've never competed in any practical precision rifle match either.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Sterling, facts. When top F TR shooters and top Palma Shooters compete at same time the F TR Scores are lower under same conditions.
Fact when top Palma Shooters cross over and shoot F TR with top Palma Shooters the top F TR/Palma Cross Over Shooters scores are lower than there Palma scores would have been under same conditions.

Those are facts, having shot a bunch of these matches that have both classes on same line at same time, I know these are facts.

If my take a walk comments offended you, well welcome to what you have been dishing out. Like I aid I dont care what discipline a man/woman shoots but I do take offense when they think there shit does not stink and they shoot the only real test of shooting. The Elite thing gets old.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Let's get this argument down to the basic question. Is it harder to hit where aimed with iron sights and sling support than it would be to hit where aimed on same target/distance using scope and artifical support? I think the answer is clear, so, I guess you could say F-Class is easier, since irons and sling is harder. There's the contrast. If any want to argue this, have at it.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, facts. When top F TR shooters and top Palma Shooters compete at same time the F TR Scores are lower under same conditions.
Fact when top Palma Shooters cross over and shoot F TR with top Palma Shooters the top F TR/Palma Cross Over Shooters scores are lower than there Palma scores would have been under same conditions.

Those are facts, having shot a bunch of these matches that have both classes on same line at same time, I know these are facts.

If my take a walk comments offended you, well welcome to what you have been dishing out. Like I aid I dont care what discipline a man/woman shoots but I do take offense when they think there shit does not stink and they shoot the only real test of shooting. The Elite thing gets old.</div></div>

The targets for Palma and F-Class have different scoring rings, Mike. You know that. You can't compare or contrast apples to oranges. Oh, your last statement, that's perception, and uncalled for. Again, can't you just support your argument without resorting to name calling. I've never alluded to myself competing in the only real test of shooting. But, that's apparently where you need to go when you can't use facts to support your position.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Of course it is harder to hit with sling and irons but not twice as hard based on the scores of National Level Palma and F TR Shooters
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course it is harder to hit with sling and irons but not twice as hard based on the scores of National Level Palma and F TR Shooters</div></div>

Yes, I think it's harder too, and that's my position on the matter. But, where did I use the phrase twice as hard, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that or implied it. Is it your intent to change the argument to something other here?
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My opinion on the matter is an informed one. </div></div>
It cannot be. By your own admission you have never competed in F class. And I am willing to put money down on a bet that you've never competed in any practical precision rifle match either.

</div></div>

Nice try. And you have never earned an HM rating in LR, so does that mean you too are not capable of discerning the argument here?
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Many of us have read your comments to dimisish F TR Class as easy and not real competition, when in fact the scores indicate F TR Class is actually the hardest competition in NRA to achieve High Master Class in.

The twice as hard I thought was easy to understand as our target is half as big as yours. Twice as small equals twice as easy if scores matched, which they dont.

I suggest you come to a National Level Match and shoot F TR. I will let you use my rifle, scope and ammo. then tell me how easy F TR is.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many of us have read your comments to dimisish F TR Class as easy and not real competition, when in fact the scores indicate F TR Class is actually the hardest competition in NRA to achieve High Master Class in.

The twice as hard I thought was easy to understand as our target is half as big as yours. Twice as small equals twice as easy if scores matched, which they dont.

I suggest you come to a National Level Match and shoot F TR. I will let you use my rifle, scope and ammo. then tell me how easy F TR is.</div></div>

Once again you ascribe words to me that are not mine. "Diminish", and "easy and not real", are not my positions on the matter. They're projections manufactured by you to undermine my argument, since, apparently, you can not support your position with facts. I think most any form of shooting competition, will both test and celebrate skill. For anyone who pursues a practice schedule which is physically and mentally exhaustive, the lure of rewards keeps it all interesting, and pushes the shooter to excellence.

Competition reveals, whatever the format, those who have learned how to do it. And, while some skills from one form of competition may transcribe to another, others may not. These are reasonable expectations. Yet, you compare and contrast in a manner which is absurd. You keep bringing up that your F-Class target is twice as small as my target. I guess you are implying therefore the target is twice as hard. Well, I'll buy that. But, it would be twice as hard for any kind of competitor. If traditional NRA LR used it, would not scores go down. Sure they would. And, then we'd see F-Class shooters posting better scores than others. That would be expected. So, does this mean that shooting with scope and artificial support is easier? Or does it say F-Class shooters are better marksman? What is it? You tell me. My thought is the scope and artificial rest simply support better results than can be mustered from human elements. Does that "diminish" the accomplishment? You tell me. What skills are being appraised through F-Class competition? I think that traditional NRA LR, especially Service Rifle, honors the human elements. What is it that F Class honors? It seems, to me it honors results by less restricted means.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The F-Class target is 4 times smaller, not half.</div></div>

The X-ring on an NRA LR target is 10 inches, on an NRA F-Class center the X-ring is about 5 inches.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The F-Class target is 4 times smaller, not half.</div></div>

The X-ring on an NRA LR target is 10 inches, on an NRA F-Class center the X-ring is about 5 inches. </div></div>

Correct. And the area of a 10 inch circle is 4 times greater than the area of a 5 inch circle.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Yeah, O.K. so what? Are you here to crap on this thread or enlighten. Circular targets with scoring rings are measured relative to MOA for diameter, so this means discussion of such in linear measurement.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

David, sorry for my reducing it to simple math instead of actual four times smaller equation. My bad, was just keeping it simple.

Sterling, as to craping on thread the original [poster wanted opinions from guys who have shot F Class. He managed to get a few informed opinions before you crapped on thread,
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">David, sorry for my reducing it to simple math instead of actual four times smaller equation. My bad, was just keeping it simple.

Sterling, as to craping on thread the original [poster wanted opinions from guys who have shot F Class. He managed to get a few informed opinions before you crapped on thread,</div></div>


Com'on Mike, you can do better than that.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

I don't have anything against slings and irons. From my USMC days, I understand the difficulty, and the fundamental discipline required.

I just see Sterling Shooter as a jackass. Pimping his "advanced" military rifle marksmanship course, at every opportunity.

He's clearly the best trainer on earth. USMC bootcamp dedicates two weeks and hundreds of rounds to each recruit, to establish basic skills.

SS can git-r-done in six hours, with 100 rounds of ammo, on your home range.

And, per his very own advert...."M4 Marksmen's Advanced Military Rife Marksmanship Course is all the training needed for success in any arena where marksmanship is paramount."......"It covers everything important to all good shooting, and, promises, after the smoke clears and the dust settles, the student will know everything there is to know about good shooting."

That's rich.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those here who enjoy F-Class, knock yourself out. But don't kid yourself about it being in the same league of skilled disciplines as NRA LR match or any/any. But, if it were, then what point for it at the National Matches, just sling-up and enter the Wimbledon Cup event. Or remove the scope for irons plus sling and enter the Leech Cup event. Shouldn't be hard, after all, the target is twice as big. And, me shoot F-Class, perhaps when I loose my vision. Right now, I'm taking my Service Rifle to the long line. With it I am challenged in all manner of things, which keeps it interesting.

holdoff,

Have you ever shot the Service Rifle at LR, have you ever participated in the NRA LR National Matches? Are you alluding that because I do not enter F Class events I do not have an understanding for its minutia? I've shot em all, except F-Class, since it is physically impossible to take a firearm to an NRA LR event and shoot two disciplines simultaneously; and, as long as my vision allows for me to develop my skills with the Service Rifle, I have no interest or motivation to shoot F-Class. In mid range and LR practice I have shot with scope and all sorts of appropriate artificial supports to appraise equipment. With the aid of bipod, bench-rest, or sandbags, I can get a better feel for equipment capability than shooting such equipment with irons and sling. It gets me a better result than I can get with irons and sling. Hmmm.. Must be easier, I guess.

All,

Through the aid of scope and peculiar artificial support the F-Class shooter can minimize error associated with human elements, such as vision and bone support. On the other hand, LR Service Rifle competition requires the shooter to minimize vision and position errors by developing picture memory and motor memory skills. These skills are not as likely to be developed fully from F-Class competition, since the scope and peculiar artificial support precludes the necessity. In other words, these aids to minimize human deficiency make good shooting easier for any one regardless of their marksmanship ranking. But, the National LR Championships is all about testing and celebrating the human element. It serves to distinguish those who have persisted to perfect their performance, overcoming their human deficiency. This is what makes shooting F-Class in the National Match venue unlikely, since F-Class is a test and celebration of something else. </div></div>

SS,

Then why do you use a sling, shooting glove and shooting jacket that is put on so tight that you can not breath or move? If that is not some kinda artifical support then I don't know what is. To each his own, come down of that high horse and have a beer with the fella's.

D
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

I hate it when friends argue. It gets ugly and becomes akin to a pissing match. Harm and injury follow needlessly.

My own displeasure about target differences is not about scores.

It is about division.

When we all shot the same target, we all shot together and our scores were simply collated separately.

Since then the Palma shooters and the F Class shooters have drawn apart and we get discussions like this one.

I saw it coming and made some noise about it way back when. Now we reap the whirlwind.

But who am I to complain?

Greg
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Glad I allready shot my first F-TR match and loved it.
Had I come across this spewage beforehand I would have definitly had second thoughts about having to deal with another sport mired by ego.
I respect and am impressed by what the service rifle guys do but it is just not for everybody.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When we all shot the same target, we all shot together and our scores were simply collated separately.

Since then the Palma shooters and the F Class shooters have drawn apart and we get discussions like this one.

I saw it coming and made some noise about it way back when. Now we reap the whirlwind.
</div></div>
IME, it has been the other way around.

There was much acrimony when F class and conventional shared the target due to the score disparity.

Now that every one has an appropriate target that animosity has mostly gone away.
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskyTangoFoxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad I allready shot my first F-TR match and loved it.
Had I come across this spewage beforehand I would have definitly had second thoughts about having to deal with another sport mired by ego.
I respect and am impressed by what the service rifle guys do but it is just not for everybody. </div></div>

Actually what I love about F TR Class is the lack of ego on line. Never found a better bunch to help new guys.

Greg, the seperation between F Class and Palma Shooters is far less than it once was. The target being harder has helped. The LR Target was created for iron sights and slings. The bipod and scope are easier to shoot with so a smaller target was needed. The current target for F TR Class is what I think is best test of skill in NRA, because no one cleans the course the in a long range F TR Match. Not an insult but if many get perfect scores its too easy.

Sterlings feeling are held by what I consider a very few. I seldom have any problems with any LR/Service Rifle and Palma Shooter. Far from it, as a Vice Captain on F TR Team I have met with several top Palma Shooters who want to shoot on US F TR Team. I see this ap closing more and more

Sterling, we wont agree here but good shooting to you just the same
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskyTangoFoxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad I allready shot my first F-TR match and loved it.
Had I come across this spewage beforehand I would have definitly had second thoughts about having to deal with another sport mired by ego.
I respect and am impressed by what the service rifle guys do but it is just not for everybody. </div></div>

Actually what I love about F TR Class is the lack of ego on line. Never found a better bunch to help new guys.

Greg, the seperation between F Class and Palma Shooters is far less than it once was. The target being harder has helped. The LR Target was created for iron sights and slings. The bipod and scope are easier to shoot with so a smaller target was needed. The current target for F TR Class is what I think is best test of skill in NRA, because no one cleans the course the in a long range F TR Match. Not an insult but if many get perfect scores its too easy.

Sterlings feeling are held by what I consider a very few. I seldom have any problems with any LR/Service Rifle and Palma Shooter. Far from it, as a Vice Captain on F TR Team I have met with several top Palma Shooters who want to shoot on US F TR Team. I see this ap closing more and more

Sterling, we wont agree here but good shooting to you just the same</div></div>

Yes, perhaps, we need to agree to disagree. How bout a truce, on this matter?
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskyTangoFoxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad I allready shot my first F-TR match and loved it.
Had I come across this spewage beforehand I would have definitly had second thoughts about having to deal with another sport mired by ego.
I respect and am impressed by what the service rifle guys do but it is just not for everybody. </div></div>

Actually what I love about F TR Class is the lack of ego on line. Never found a better bunch to help new guys.

Greg, the seperation between F Class and Palma Shooters is far less than it once was. The target being harder has helped. The LR Target was created for iron sights and slings. The bipod and scope are easier to shoot with so a smaller target was needed. The current target for F TR Class is what I think is best test of skill in NRA, because no one cleans the course the in a long range F TR Match. Not an insult but if many get perfect scores its too easy.

Sterlings feeling are held by what I consider a very few. I seldom have any problems with any LR/Service Rifle and Palma Shooter. Far from it, as a Vice Captain on F TR Team I have met with several top Palma Shooters who want to shoot on US F TR Team. I see this ap closing more and more

Sterling, we wont agree here but good shooting to you just the same</div></div>

Yes, perhaps, we need to agree to disagree. How bout a truce, on this matter? </div></div>

That works for me. I prefer to judge on a mans body of work over one incident where we did not agree. Your overal body of work has helped many and I do respect you, your knowledge and your accomplishments
 
Re: Thinking of shooting f class

Mike;

If I've grasped the relationship wrong, I am happy to be so.

These days, my diminished capacity for travel limits my opportunities greatly, and that's probably appropriate, as my skills are also in a gradual decline. It should be disapponting, but it only seems small and I don't really mind so much anyway.

There appears to be a slow transfer of my interest from shooting to model aviation.

A lot of it has to do with sticker shock traceable to my last visit to buy handloading components. I am undeniably getting priced out of the hobby. I also seem to be running out of things to share.

My model aircraft hobby currently costs me a LOT less than handloading. I scratch build tissue/balsa rubber powered free flight aircraft. My building materials run a coupla bucks per plane, and I can fly on local school grounds and in the village parks.

It's just easier to do. At my stage in life, 'easier' becomes very enticing. I go over the top at 65 next month.

Greg

 
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