I use a heaping tablespoon (the kind you eat with not the measuring scoop) of Palmolive Original to .7cc of Lemishine (Lee .7cc dipper) to 1gal of water in a Thumler Model B.
To lube or not to lube....when seating bullets
- Thread starter SinCityJets
- Start date
I don't think this is what causes cold welding - think it's galvanic corrosion between the brass and copper
Also - for anyone using Lemishine, pretty sure it's just Straight Citric Acid Powder, which is probably cheaper, I know I've gotten it off Amazon. Sometimes used by backcountry hunters to spray on meat they've just de-boned to lower the PH, help get a crust, prevent bacteria growth, etc.
I’ve been processing my brass this way for a while and have been super happy:
1. Deprime
2. Wet tumble w/ SS pins and BoreTech case cleaner
3. Pour ALL the brass in a towel, grab the ends (hammock style) and roll the brass to remove the majority of the water
4. Vibratory tumble with white rice (30 min) to completely dry
5. Anneal
Once I’ve completed all of my sizing, trimming, turning processes…
6. Sonic cleaner w/ BoreTech case cleaner to remove ALL case lube
7. Repeat step #3
8. Repeat step #4
9. Prime
10. Neolube 2 necks and aloe to completely dry
11. Charge
12. Seat
It really didn’t seem obsessive until I wrote it all down…
1. Deprime
2. Wet tumble w/ SS pins and BoreTech case cleaner
3. Pour ALL the brass in a towel, grab the ends (hammock style) and roll the brass to remove the majority of the water
4. Vibratory tumble with white rice (30 min) to completely dry
5. Anneal
Once I’ve completed all of my sizing, trimming, turning processes…
6. Sonic cleaner w/ BoreTech case cleaner to remove ALL case lube
7. Repeat step #3
8. Repeat step #4
9. Prime
10. Neolube 2 necks and aloe to completely dry
11. Charge
12. Seat
It really didn’t seem obsessive until I wrote it all down…
Obsessive . . . nahhh, none of us are obsessive.
I do feel you should do your annealing before your step #2. That way you get that abrasive oxidation layer off so it doesn't have any way to rub on he inside of your sizing dies (an issue, even though you may have plenty of lube in that area).
I rarely wet tumble, but when I do I simply use a heat gun to heat up my brass that's laid out on a towel. The water inside the cases evaporates rather quickly due to the heated cases; takes me about 10 minutes to do that.
I regularly us medium rice in my dry tumbler to remove the lube I use (Imperial Sizing Wax) and as a results, I don't need any lube in the necks for seating.
To me, you simply appear to be putting way more effort than needs be. It took me a little while to refine my process. Maybe you should too???
old thread bump... wow lol
i have never lubed a case neck or bullet in 10 years of reloading
and now i know why some peoples look like factory round out of box! i tumble for sure, but my brass never looks out of box new and i do not care of it doesn't
i have never lubed a case neck or bullet in 10 years of reloading
and now i know why some peoples look like factory round out of box! i tumble for sure, but my brass never looks out of box new and i do not care of it doesn't
Pondering on getting a mandrel set up with 3 different size mandrels for 3 different cases 308, 6 & 6.5 Cm's. Got frustrated with every on line site using some form of AI in their search feature, type in "mandrel die" and you get every "Fn" die they have.
So, where to look for 1 die body and 3 different size mandrels ?
So, where to look for 1 die body and 3 different size mandrels ?
Worth considering for sure.Obsessive . . . nahhh, none of us are obsessive.
I do feel you should do your annealing before your step #2. That way you get that abrasive oxidation layer off so it doesn't have any way to rub on he inside of your sizing dies (an issue, even though you may have plenty of lube in that area).
I rarely wet tumble, but when I do I simply use a heat gun to heat up my brass that's laid out on a towel. The water inside the cases evaporates rather quickly due to the heated cases; takes me about 10 minutes to do that.
I regularly us medium rice in my dry tumbler to remove the lube I use (Imperial Sizing Wax) and as a results, I don't need any lube in the necks for seating.
To me, you simply appear to be putting way more effort than needs be. It took me a little while to refine my process. Maybe you should too???
Try these guys. Die body and either single mandrel or they sell caliber specific kits also. Good product IMO.
Expander Die Body
Expander Die Body Introducing the much anticipated Generation X Expander Die Body with viewing window! Set up of an expander die has not been easier! The viewing window allows the user to set the die to allow for optimal mandrel use without “bottoming out”. Machined out of 7075 Aluminum and...
21stcenturyinnovation.com
Sinclair mandrell die and the mandrells you need brownells should have them.
I even run my 223 ar brass through them.
Look into the porter precision products expander.It uses er11 collets and pin gages.It’s a great design that’s well machined ,simple and effective.Collets and pin gages can be purchased thru them or eBay and come in endless sizes and tolerances relatively cheap
My base to ogive measurement is much more consistent when I lube bullets before seating.
https://www.brownells.com/reloading...ss-steel-neck-turning-mandrels/?sku=749001186
To get to this I had to search for . ".241 mandrel" any other search ended up with crap results .
I am investigating bushing dies now. I have never been comfortable with how hard a generic expander ball pulls on brass. It seems to stretch it, leading to trimming required sooner. I’m just figuring out that bushing dies with the expander removed, when set up properly full length size the case but only squeeze the neck down to the appropriate size. If I understand correctly, an expander mandrel is just a gentler sloped expander ball, unless it’s used as a separate operation after sizing, making the pressure down on the brass while expanding, rather than pulling up. So a bushing die properly set up with the expander removed is basically a f/l die that neck sizes without a collet.
The mandrel is a separate step from the full length size down. It can be gentler sloped but it is much more of a solid cylinder allowing for a more effective “dwell”.
As well as the expanding mandrel operation going down into the cases compressive strength vs pulling out against the tensile strength with a ball as you noted.
Some such as short action customs has made a semi hybrid mandrel, but that really much more of what you were describing in the same step as sizing down, it still expands on the out stroke but offers much more material to act against the brass vs a ball.
Just take your standard fls die, remove the expander plug, Chuck it up in a drill.
Use some emory cloth and polish off till you get about 0.006 thousands or more below bullet diameter.
Use some fine grit at the end to give it a mirror finish.
This will make it run like butter when sizing, no pull or stretch on case. Then run your mandrel for a -0.002 neck tension.
This method brought my groups down approximately 20 - 25% across all calibers all brass and seating was very smooth not requiring extra lube other than my standard tumbled with nufinish.
You're working the brass in smaller steps and not pinching it against the die body as much. Brand or measurements on neck thickness not needed unless you are running a neck turn chamber then well, God bless you.
Use some emory cloth and polish off till you get about 0.006 thousands or more below bullet diameter.
Use some fine grit at the end to give it a mirror finish.
This will make it run like butter when sizing, no pull or stretch on case. Then run your mandrel for a -0.002 neck tension.
This method brought my groups down approximately 20 - 25% across all calibers all brass and seating was very smooth not requiring extra lube other than my standard tumbled with nufinish.
You're working the brass in smaller steps and not pinching it against the die body as much. Brand or measurements on neck thickness not needed unless you are running a neck turn chamber then well, God bless you.
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Oh cought and fixed post to be 0.006 under bullet diameter instead of 0.06 under.
Woops
You will be surprised at how little effort it takes to size after that free mod.
Woops
You will be surprised at how little effort it takes to size after that free mod.
When guys compare their reloading techniques to the BR or F class guys, just know that they're techniques are different than ours, because the way they shoot is different (their course of fire) and because of that their rifles are set up different. When you're seating a bullet you will feel (assuming a short handled arbor press w/ inline seater vs the traditional seater on a long armed, mounted press) a massive difference in seating feel between say, a virgin case with no lube, vs a shot case without lube, vs a shot case with lube etc etc, also taking into account the differential in neck id vs projectile od, which we call 'neck tension' . Regardless of how it's prepped, you'll always feel more seating resistance if you're running a lot of neck tension. More often than not we (tactical/prs/hunting-basically non br/f-class) load a mag (blind or external box) and rack rounds into the chamber from that mag. You sometimes couldnt get away with BR levels of neck tension doing that as the trip from the box into the chamber will end up seating your bullet a tad deeper. Those guys shoot single shot rifles and hand load each round into the ejection port and dont slam their bolts home. A lot of those guys run 1 thou of 'tension' with no lube, and doing that, you wont feel as much inconsistency as we would, running say 4 thou of tension because maybe we're shooting an auto loader that is hard on cartridges. You can get away with no lube w/ very little neck tension. In my experiences, no matter what I did, in every case brand I could find, if I tried to seat bullets in clean or virgin cases with around 3 thou of tension with no lube, my seating pressure was very inconsistent on my lyman traditional turret press, my k&m arbor press w/ force pack & short arm, and my 21st century arbor press with long arm & pressure gage. I could both see it and feel it. When I started using the dry lube, the consistency showed up, especially when experimenting with around 5-6 thou of neck tension. (i use a 223 bore swab impregnated with dry lube before I size the case) The inconsistency in seating pressure on all of these different cases after a few firing's worth of carbon build up did go down a little, but I still experienced enough inconsistency that made me think "this doesnt feel right".
I did that experiment because I was wanting to find out how these old Yugo mauser sniper rounds were grouping so decently, even though they were basically asphalted into the necks. It took a considerable amount of force to pull those bullets from the cases, and it was inconsistent as well, which is what set me on this neck tension experiment to see how this jacked up neck tension affected these rounds.
As far as smoothing out the insides of the necks, I have found that the expander ball going in and out of that neck, plus seating and shooting bullets has smoothed that out, combined with that coating of carbon it became a non factor for me. Of course the recipe of brass has a lot to do with that as well, as explained to me by an employee of alpha brass. Brass in general isnt very smooth at all contrary to popular belief, and some makers recipes are inherently 'slicker' than others, so some of these explanations you see on here will vary with the brand of brass they're using. So basically in my experience, BR and F class shooter's case sizing and bullet seating habits are kind of different than ours because their requirements are different. Their loaded rounds go through a lot less than ours do, and they can get away with different stuff than we can. When they're using pristine museum quality brass with long barrels, no cans and their necks sealing perfectly in their chambers, their brass can live a very different life than ours. When using dirty brass, with more neck tension, you have to utilize a few more tricks to even out tension, and that can vary depending on the brass brand. Just something to keep in mind.
I did that experiment because I was wanting to find out how these old Yugo mauser sniper rounds were grouping so decently, even though they were basically asphalted into the necks. It took a considerable amount of force to pull those bullets from the cases, and it was inconsistent as well, which is what set me on this neck tension experiment to see how this jacked up neck tension affected these rounds.
As far as smoothing out the insides of the necks, I have found that the expander ball going in and out of that neck, plus seating and shooting bullets has smoothed that out, combined with that coating of carbon it became a non factor for me. Of course the recipe of brass has a lot to do with that as well, as explained to me by an employee of alpha brass. Brass in general isnt very smooth at all contrary to popular belief, and some makers recipes are inherently 'slicker' than others, so some of these explanations you see on here will vary with the brand of brass they're using. So basically in my experience, BR and F class shooter's case sizing and bullet seating habits are kind of different than ours because their requirements are different. Their loaded rounds go through a lot less than ours do, and they can get away with different stuff than we can. When they're using pristine museum quality brass with long barrels, no cans and their necks sealing perfectly in their chambers, their brass can live a very different life than ours. When using dirty brass, with more neck tension, you have to utilize a few more tricks to even out tension, and that can vary depending on the brass brand. Just something to keep in mind.
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