Tom Irwin's Response to Me regarding the UK Article

[Lowlight]

I don't believe you, I want to see the picture,

Your anecdotal statement does not fly in the face of reality, we need evidence as your word is not good enough, we don't know you

 

[Maggot]

Im new to this one but my analysis would compare it to muscle cars.

I see no real benifit to having a street car with 6000 hp that will go from 0-60 in -.3 weconds...but thats in no way saying "They should be banned.".

Big differemce.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I don't believe you, I want to see the picture,

Your anecdotal statement does not fly in the face of reality, we need evidence as your word is not good enough, we don't know you

Wither you believe me or not is irrelevant to me. When you come down from the tower an start asking what many core guys did, at that time you might get a surprise.

 

[Redmanss]

Tom clarified, I think I'll trust him over the media any day of the week. Whether AI decides to take legal action against them, well that is neither cheap nor rapid to happen, as well as I would highly doubt they would let that cat out of the bag before the filing anyhow. I would absolutely not relate them not filing for them hiding anything, would even say the same thing a year from now.

When I first came to the Hide seven years ago, we had a ton of industry reps active on here. We had inside scoop on upcoming products, delivery status, product support, etc, and life was pretty damn good. One by one, they keep getting run off because a select few take issue with one thing or another, take things to a personal level, bad mouth not only their company but also them personally, and it's almost always petty bullshit like pricing, delivery, or a minor defect that even though they were taken care of, often above and beyond what was required by the company, they still try to take them to task on it. Nightforce, KAC, Surefire, GAP, DT, Vortex, S&B, AAC, PH, Hensoldt, all have had reps quit posting on here over the years because of drama. This one is certainly seeming like it's going in that direction as well. For full disclosure, the only thing AI in my inventory are a few magazines like most everyone else here, I'm on a R700 action, SWFA scope and SMK budget of late.

I'm a staunch supporter of the 2A, traditionalist believer in it where I feel civilians should have the right to all weaponry including anything you would find in any infantry division; mortars, tanks, artillery and AT missiles inclusive. And I also personally feel bump stocks are fucking stupid, right up there with chrome lined pencil barrels and >7# "combat" triggers. They're some serious TAPCO level bullshit that does little more than cause inexperienced and overzealous shooters impact beyond their backstop into whatever neighborhood may be beyond their Bobcat dug berm, all just to see how fast they can dump their Wolf ammo in the general direction of a paper plate stapled to a 2x4 post. Does that mean I think they should be banned? Of course not, but a reporter would be fast as hell to take that as "Marine Sniper ______ _______ stated 'Bump stocks are f---ing stupid.' last week on a popular shooting forum, further showing even shooters support banning those items." Reporters have less ethics than an ambulance chasing lawyer, biased to their agenda through and through, that's a fact and everyone here knows that.

Some of you are completely falling for the epitome of Fake News, head over heels stumbling over one another to burn the wrong witch.

 

[Lowlight]

Wither you believe me or not is irrelevant to me. When you come down from the tower an start asking what many core guys did, at that time you might get a surprise.

RedmanSS for the win !

GF,
Nobody knows what you core guys did in 1985, which is also part of the point, you shook your fist at the sky and changed nothing, instead you try eating your own, or as Redman nicely stated, attempted to burn the wrong witch. hence the climate we live in today, well done, you succeeded at nothing.

 

[QuietShootr]

Maybe I missed the outrage and burning of NRA Cards ? One of 2A Warriors do me a favor and post the picture you took when you burned your membership card?

Excuse me if everything I write here does not meet your standards of excellence but frankly, unitl I see you do something, I will continue to give my opinion. If that runs counter to you, sorry about that, but I am busy looking at the big picture vs some micro agression bullshit.

You really want a picture of the Life Member card I actually wiped my ass with and sent back to the NRA? The problem I experienced was that I couldn't get much visible shit to stick to the plastic, so the picture I did take right before I dropped it in the envelope doesn't really show much.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Now you and I are talking past one another.

* Thank you for what you do here
* Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, it is important for anyone in any field to be wary of the fact that depending on context, personal opinions can be construed as overarching statements from the organization. Folks in any industry should make use of qualifying statements to distinguish a personally held belief from an organization's platform point - that’s just good business.
*Regarding bumpstocks “hurting me in the long run”. No, 2a rights can not be damaged by an object. However, 2a rights ARE being eroded by zealots / those who favor incrementalism / those who act irresponsibly.
*Regarding burning my NRA card - for me that was 23 yrs ago

 

[Lowlight]

Wasn't this done

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, it is important for anyone in any field to be wary of the fact that depending on context, personal opinions can be construed an overarching statements from the organization. Folks in any industry should make use of qualifying statements to distinguish a personally held belief from a organizational platform point - that’s just good business.

Personally, I see no benefit them ... isn't this a qualifier you asked for?

Hate to break it to, we are all held responsible for the actions of those who act irresponsibly with a firearm, they don't differentiate between law-abiding gun owners with those who use firearms in a reckless or irresponsible way. Instead, they lump us all in together, unintended consequences, over and over again, one day you'll figure that part out.

 

[QuietShootr]

Wasn't this done

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, it is important for anyone in any field to be wary of the fact that depending on context, personal opinions can be construed an overarching statements from the organization. Folks in any industry should make use of qualifying statements to distinguish a personally held belief from a organizational platform point - that’s just good business.

Personally, I see no benefit them ... isn't this a qualifier you asked for?

Hate to break it to, we are all held responsible for the actions of those who act irresponsibly with a firearm, they don't differentiate between law-abiding gun owners with those who use firearms in a reckless or irresponsible way. Instead, they lump us all in together, unintended consequences, over and over again, one day you'll figure that part out.

So you favor giving something up that the antis don't like, correct?

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

Can the forum go back to No Politics......

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Lowlight]

That is not what I said, nice twist.

I am in favor of you not being on my side in any real debate regarding any proposed gun control as I believe you will do more harm than good.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Wasn't this done

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, it is important for anyone in any field to be wary of the fact that depending on context, personal opinions can be construed an overarching statements from the organization. Folks in any industry should make use of qualifying statements to distinguish a personally held belief from a organizational platform point - that’s just good business.

Personally, I see no benefit them ... isn't this a qualifier you asked for?

Hate to break it to, we are all held responsible for the actions of those who act irresponsibly with a firearm, they don't differentiate between law-abiding gun owners with those who use firearms in a reckless or irresponsible way. Instead, they lump us all in together, unintended consequences, over and over again, one day you'll figure that part out.

As I have said (and as neither you nor Tom has corrected) - there is not a qualifier that while those are personal opinions, you both support 2a without the sideboards you’ve thrown out thus far?

Unless of course - you want to go on record here as saying - you don’t (?)


Regarding the one day thing..... at what point do you admit to yourself and see that everything around you is about incrementalism, and that to continue to concede is futile in and of itself?

 

[QuietShootr]

That is not what I said, nice twist.

I am in favor of you not being on my side in any real debate regarding any proposed gun control as I believe you will do more harm than good.

were you talking to me?

I'm going to assume you were. The problem is that you think there's a debate. There isn't a debate, because 'debate' implies that you're willing to give something else up. At this point there is only one proper answer to "Let's have a conversation about gun violence...etc..etc"

"No. Fuck you."

"You're not being reasonable! Surely people of goodwill can come together and-"

"No. Fuck you."

A "debate" implies that we're going to negotiate something. There is no further negotiation - hell, there should have been no negotiation in 1934. Or 1968. Or 1986. Or 1994.

People who are willing to say "No. Fuck you." is the reason we still have what we have in 2017. Mealy-mouthed compromise and 'conversation' means we give something up, and they settle for getting a little less than they wanted to take, this time. But they'll be back. They always come back. And the only proper answer to them is "No. Fuck you."

 

[QuickNDirty]

but frankly

Haa, I see what you did there... You should trademark that.

Seriously though. Don't ban politics. They're hysterical/insightful/full of goodness except for a few offenders. I could probably whip up a plugin that would detect political content attempting to be submitted by a user specified in an easily managed shitlist and do anything from censor it to temporarily banning them for a few minutes or whatever you'd like.

As for AI and this whole thread, y'all all should be ashamed of yourselves. There's literally no wrong the producers of the AWM could ever do. Even remotely suspecting AI of wrongdoing is terrible terrible terrible.

As penance, you should all buy yourselves one, and each of you should buy me one, too.

 

[Lowlight]

I don't agree with the Anti's on anything and my single voting issue is gun control, in fact, I will go against my personal self-interest to vote against forms of gun control

Fact is, certain things are designed to skirt the law, and when that happens we risk unintended consequences that spiral beyond our control. Unfortunately, the community embraces these things vs trying to steer the ship in a calmer direction.

I am not the keeper of the law, and the ones that are (ATF) are not open for votes.

The reality how I see it is, many of these things you think I have control over were given a seat at the table many times over before me, so I try to operate in our given reality vs in some fantasy land.

The fact many of you are trying to play "gotcha" is comical and heavy-handed, I almost feel a good old fashion banning spree is due based on the fact you are attempting to burn me down over it

 

[QuietShootr]

I don't agree with the Anti's on anything and my single voting issue is gun control, in fact, I will go against my personal self-interest to vote against forms of gun control

Fact is, certain things are designed to skirt the law, and when that happens we risk unintended consequences that spiral beyond our control. Unfortunately, the community embraces these things vs trying to steer the ship in a calmer direction.

I am not the keeper of the law, and the ones that are (ATF) are not open for votes.

The reality how I see it is, many of these things you think I have control over were given a seat at the table many times over before me, so I try to operate in our given reality vs in some fantasy land.

The fact many of you are trying to play "gotcha" is comical and heavy-handed, I almost feel a good old fashion banning spree is due based on the fact you are attempting to burn me down over it

did you notice the guys you're talking about banning are the ones that have been here almost as long as you?

 

[Lowlight]

Ask me if I care...

you're playing word games as there are 4 pages of posts here and still you play gotcha,

I can easily ban your asses, delete the post, replace it with Tom's statement, 12 hours from now, hardly anyone will notice

Keep trying to burn me down when my position is quite clear

 

[1J04]

^^^^ True ^^^^

ME!

Something tells me this is Lady Gaga and it ain't gonna happen.

 

[pmclaine]

No matter how nice it would be to return to a life devoid of politics that cant happen right now as there is a sort of death struggle to see which direction the country goes.

If it goes one way we are sunk and if it goes the other way at best we maintain what we have but will still be subject to panic buys evertime a psycho loses control. Id love to say we might adopt policies based on personal responsibility but the kindergarten that has been created over the last 50 years hasn't been given instruction that its time to crawl.

Any gun person that speaks to the media is walking into a mine field and should expect their words will be taken out of context as was this case. At best when called on it the media will put a tiny retraction on page 19 under the obituaries.

What this reporter did I see as willfull and intentional and obviously has jeopardized the goodwill of his company. For that I would like to see a fight back and ultimately some favorable benefit to the victim (AI).

The determining factor for AI would be the cost of the litigation.

I doubt for a favorable finding and recovery of costs but it goes along way to maintaining and retaining the goodwill of the business.

Add me to the list of people seeing no benefit to a bump stock but my expression of my disaffection is to not buy one. Have fun those of you that have them.

Its important that pro firearms people engage the anti media in a knowledgeable, thoughtful manner otherwise we engage in an in house circle jerk that does nothing to educate the fence sitter that wants to understand the issues.

People such as Tom, and you Lowlight, are the authorities that the press is going to go to and have speak for us. I know you never were asked to accept the responsibility to be my personal representative but I have built such a mediocre life no one asks my opinion.

In a world where the media will edit a 911 call to make a person involved in a self defense shoot look racist the pro pundits need to protect themselves. Have the media sign your release stating they accept penalties of out of context statements or damages to your business, break out your own recorder and record the actual conversation, get a hot secretary that can take short (no offense) hand and get a record for the reporter to sign acknowledging content.

If they refuse your stipulations walk away because they are intending to fuck me by using you and you don't want to go there.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Telling Lowlight about burning old bridges is so funny.

 

[Lowlight]

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[Gunfighter14e2]

GF,
Nobody knows what you core guys did in 1985, which is also part of the point, you shook your fist at the sky and changed nothing, instead you try eating your own, or as Redman nicely stated, attempted to burn the wrong witch. hence the climate we live in today, well done, you succeeded at nothing.

I (and many more) spent a lot of time with Marion Hammer (FLA.) an others over ray-guns doing, one of the reasons you now see the GOA, an many other state wide groups.
I was not trying to eat anything, your the one that shit on anything bump fire worrying about other items for bolt guns, I just pointed out the facts.
Nice try a word twisting though. The person, not the item, an never give an inch, be it here or other venues, the values are the same.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

I don't agree with the Anti's on anything and my single voting issue is gun control, in fact, I will go against my personal self-interest to vote against forms of gun control

Fact is, certain things are designed to skirt the law, and when that happens we risk unintended consequences that spiral beyond our control. Unfortunately, the community embraces these things vs trying to steer the ship in a calmer direction.

I am not the keeper of the law, and the ones that are (ATF) are not open for votes.

The reality how I see it is, many of these things you think I have control over were given a seat at the table many times over before me, so I try to operate in our given reality vs in some fantasy land.

The fact many of you are trying to play "gotcha" is comical and heavy-handed, I almost feel a good old fashion banning spree is due based on the fact you are attempting to burn me down over it

I appreciate a real answer on your part. Totally great with it too. I would just encourage that folks aren’t so much as playing gotcha with you, it more likely it is that a lot of things are missing, left out, not easily deduced from short comments on a forum. I’d also wager that in person, if we were all talking about 2a, very few people (even those like me that do not believe in allowing for incremental erosion) walk away from the table.

Discussions are healthy.

 

[QuickNDirty]

very few people (even those like me that do not believe in allowing for incremental erosion) walk away from the table.

Discussions are healthy.

Damn, I mean, I've had a lot of 2a discussions with folks not entirely unlike y'all, but nobody ever got to stabbing each other. We all walked (sometimes stumbled) away from the table. Every time. Even the rinos and lefties.

What kinda crowd are you running with?

 

[TheMammoth]

The fucking libtards stick up for each other and we cant..It aint looking looking good for us gents.

Absolutely this. I don't punch right, and I sure as HELL do not punch gun industry leaders at the word of a liberal rag.

Ruger had some ideas I disagree with completely but I still love me some wheel gun goodness from their company, and his quotes were right there for everyone to see.

This entire argument should've ended after the first post, one would think. We do exactly what the people who hate our passion want: we sling shit and vitriol at each other instead of spending our time and resources protecting our rights intelligently.

 

[MAGUA]

This thread makes my balls itch !

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

The fact many of you are trying to play "gotcha" is comical and heavy-handed, I almost feel a good old fashion banning spree is due based on the fact you are attempting to burn me down over it

Nobody's trying to burn you down over anything, we are trying to point out your logic is wrong. If you fell a banning spree is in order because we went against your thoughts, by all means ban the fuck out of us. If you looking for a place that is nothing but boot licking lackeys have at it.

 

[Lowlight]

It's clear to me, some get it, some don't.

I get the, "Not one Inch", but honestly we don't live in that world anymore. It's too easy for the pendulum to swing the other way in a single election. We can say, "No Fuck You" and shelf a piece of legislation but I equate that to a child holding his breath. Eventually, they are gonna breath and just look stupid when they do. As parents, there are always options once that air starts flowing again and they've lost all leverage because of it. I like to hold my breath along with the child to see who can last longest, before rendering judgment, the lack of oxygen helps devise a better punishment.

It's a case by case basis for sure, sometimes No Fuck You is appropriate, sometimes you have to actually get off the bench, stand up and make an argument "why" it's not good. In those cases when your first reaction is "No Fuck You" the ground gained is immediately lost, anyone on the fringe walks to the other side. There are too many places where the numbers don't support the gun industry (Like CA) that can make rules around us and have it spill into other places.

In all the recent events the first reaction is to "Ban the Instrument", and because nobody has crafted an realistic response to this, we get what we have seen both today and in the past. No Fuck You is what the Supreme Court did this week to Maryland. Refusing to debate it, instead of saying, we need to talk about it, they kicked the can down the road, and all that negative happening in Maryland can now trickle out to other locales.

Once the barn doors were opened, which they were a long, long time ago, No Fuck You has less of an impact. The smart ones will just wait you out. Making a clear cut case is the only way to put issues to bed once and for all.

 

[Lowlight]

Nobody's trying to burn you down over anything, we are trying to point out your logic is wrong. If you fell a banning spree is in order because we went against your thoughts, by all means ban the fuck out of us. If you looking for a place that is nothing but boot licking lackeys have at it.

Of course you are,

I gave clear cut answers, early, early on, they were not acceptable, as well Tom has answered, and those were not enough for you to acknowledge, I made it very clear, and still you persisted.

I have already banned some and would been happy to continue as it's been a while and feels pretty good.

Not about boot licking, you straight up are twisting the conversation, as many here have acknowledged,

"Personally, I dont' see the benefit" does not imply banning, gun control, etc, everything you framed our words to be.

 

[Lowlight]

For the hard at comprehending

Sniper’s Hide took the time on Friday to reach out to Tom Irwin of Accuracy International Regarding the Article in “The Evening Standard”. Tom called me that evening from a Hockey Game to set the record straight for everyone.

Within the Accuracy International Financial Disclosure were comments regarding the US election. How the election of Trump was seen as a positive for Accuracy International and the fact there was always a risk, had she been elected Hillary could have harmed the business. The quote from Tom was included

"There was always a risk that she would… ban gun imports"

The document is public and a reporter on seeing the comments regarding the US election contacted AI to say he was writing an article about it. Everything Trump is news and the fact AI mentioned support for his election makes it news.

Prior to publication, Tom spoke to the reporter and the question of Bump stocks came up. This is the majority of the article, and delivered two quotes from Tom.

"Ridiculous"
"Personally, I don’t think so. I can’t see the benefit."

Clearly, these were taken out of context and help create the headline that the "US needs greater gun controls, says rifle boss".

Meanwhile, gun control was never mentioned, nor was the topic. These two comments were about bump stocks. Not semi-auto rifles, or anything else, bump stocks.

Clearly out of context, clearly meant to incite a reaction among their US market. Remember, the reporter had access to their financial documents, hurting their US sales could hurt a company that showed growth. Because they supported the outcome of the election you get a political hit job.

Tom explained Accuracy International and Tom Irwin are not calling for more gun control in the US. And does not agree with the way the article frames any of Tom's statements. The conversation was reduced to three quotes:

"Ridiculous"
"Personally, I don’t think so. I can’t see the benefit."
"There was always a risk that she would… ban gun imports"

With the last one about Hillary. So really you have one word and a sentence, out of a much longer discussion.

Take it from the source, Tom has spoken to me directly and can tell you this is the true definition of fake news dressed in click bait.

Tom's Official Response

It is necessary that I clarify to all of you the situation regarding a recent report in an English newspaper and set the record straight.

I never said that the US needs greater gun controls. Period. Words I said were taken out of context and the headline does not reflect the conversation I had or my beliefs.

I rarely speak to reporters (and after this experience, I’ll be sure to continue that trend) but I had been asked to discuss our company’s recent financial report. The reporter published a separate article within a few hours after the first one. This one was a positive article - but also had mistakes. He got my name wrong and said the new AI was formed in 2015, when as many of you well know, it was formed in 2005.

To be clear, I support gun rights and the Second Amendment. I am also a member of the NRA.

I was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland, and came to the USA in 1982. I became a citizen, by choice, in 1989, and I am proud to be an American. I have called the USA home for more than 35 years and fell in love with this country because we have freedoms here that nowhere on earth you can enjoy.

As for AI’s tradition in the USA, AI customers and our presence here are of paramount importance to me. I have spent the past 18 years with Accuracy International and invested a lot of my time and AI dollars into meeting the needs of our US customers. I will continue to do that.

I have been a member of Snipers Hide from its beginning, frequenting and posting on this forum regularly. I have taken feedback from your posts and incorporated them into our products and processes to better support our community. I can assure you I will continue to take your feedback seriously.


Many of you rushed to judgement and only a select few acknowledged their mistake in doing so.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Not about boot licking, you straight up are twisting the conversation, as many here have acknowledged,

A play on your words first,... which you seem to forget very quickly. If you feel the need to ban me an delete the account do it, that will just tie it all together.

 

[JW329]

Amazing we are not allowed to have opinions,

My thoughts exactly, especially with people getting told if they disagree with the all might they can leave and others simply being kicked off the forum all together....

I think what he said to the reporter was dumb regardless of the context. I am not the owner of a large firearms company but it was made abundantly clear to me when I was in the military anything I said when dealing with the press would be twisted if it was possible.

For the record I DO own AI products, along with suppressors and pre 86 registered machine guns because apparently according to some your opinion doesn't matter if you don't have money or "would never buy an AI product in the first place".

 

[j-huskey]

Martyrdom, martyrdom, oh, the horror, martyrdom...

 

[Lowlight]

My thoughts exactly, especially with people getting told if they disagree with the all might they can leave and others simply being kicked off the forum all together....

I think what he said to the reporter was dumb regardless of the context. I am not the owner of a large firearms company but it was made abundantly clear to me when I was in the military anything I said when dealing with the press would be twisted if it was possible.

For the record I DO own AI products, along with suppressors and pre 86 registered machine guns because apparently according to some your opinion doesn't matter if you don't have money or "would never buy an AI product in the first place".

For the Record, This was the original Article Tom was commenting on ...

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/...-a3707476.html

The reporter even got Tom's name wrong and called him Ian ...

PS, they rate a banning because they are attempting to twist my words, the other reason was the rush to judgment and the fact the sole quote, as I have posted, over and over, had nothing to do with, or implied removable or banning of any device. But that didn't stop the dogpile and very few of those have acknowledged the error

 

[W54/XM-388]

I am kind of wondering why the ATF under Obama decided to approve both the current generation of slide fire stocks & the pistol brace things.

Both are designed to really seriously ride right up to the line and then put a foot on the line.
Neither would have been approved 20 years ago as evidenced by the original tac triggers and various other "speed of shooting enhancement" devices, which were shot down.
The current "arm brace" thing is basically just an SBR without paperwork waiting for a re-classification and register or turn it in. Back when I first got an AR pistol, the rules were much different from the ATF, it actually had to be a pistol, so no stock or anything on the back, just the buffer tube, no nice free floating forearm that you can easily grab a second hand hold on etc.

After the whole thing went down with the gun running into Mexico for the purpose of a narrative, it may well be possible somebody somewhere was thinking "give them enough rope... wait for the idiots".
You only have to watch a random assortment of You-tube videos to see basically every idiot and their buddy saying "look my foot is hanging over the line....."

I think however that with the current rate of mental nut jobs out there, both on their meds and off their meds or just never forced to get any help, we are going to see more things being used against our freedoms till we actually get to dealing with the crazy people problem (or ban liberals / democrats from having guns).

 

[Steel+Killer]

What most people don’t realize is the FBI, ATF, or any other crooked alphabet agency does not have the final word on the unconstitutional fucked up laws they try to enforce on us. A jury of our piers is the final word if we deserve jail or freedom for so called “skirting around” unconstitutional laws. They can ban whatever the fuck they want I will take my chances that at least 1 out of 12 of my fellow citizens will see right for right and wrong for wrong. Remember they have to convince 12 your wrong you just have to convince 1 your not.

 

[Lowlight]

I do think they were letting out slack so we would hang ourselves too

 

[pmclaine]

I do think they were letting out slack so we would hang ourselves too

Lowlight one thing to consider about this......

American freedom, entrepreneurship and jury nullification.

Agreed oil cans, braces and bump stocks are not within the "spirit of the law" but neither are bullet buttons and "fin stocks" that keep, in some cases kept, our friends in a few states firing ARs.

As Leland Yee (hypocrite, felon, convicted of gun running) wrote the AR ban a bullet button would be against the spirit of the law but I think it was a great work around to tell a bunch of assholes Fuck You.

Edit it and I agree someone at ATF saw some approvals as a continuation of Fast and Furious on the domestic scene. Something has changed where the death of Americans is acceptable if it moves the agenda forward. We have had corrupt govt in the past but it seems to have been more focused on raiding the treasury. What's going on now is more aimed at ending Freedoms in order to bring about one party power. Washington warned about parties and his concerns are playing out.

 

[Lowlight]

I get that completely and feel that is where the "Debate" needs to come in, in my opinion, the argument to fight these honest and real encroachments has been weak at best. Granted we are outnumbered in many of these places. But the No. Fuck You crowd helped by not standing up a proper argument against such things. Crossing your arms and holding your breath does not always work. it might in Congress where the numbers are on our side, but in these State battles not so much. You have to stand up and battle when the numbers are against you, and the arguments need to get more sophisticated when the numbers are against us.

American freedom, entrepreneurship is great, I am a huge fan, but it wouldn't be the first time we were our own worst enemy simply to make a point, that everything needs be on the table. Case in point, my entrepreneurial thinking lead me to Scout.

The writing was / is on the wall, the majority of these criminals who are using firearms to kill people are Democrats, and it's the best form of suicide for them. They get to break it off in our ass forcing us to defend ourselves, bringing more attention to themselves and their crime.

Why is it about the instruments to the liberal mind, because the criminal is one of their own playing out a predetermined long game.

 

[pmclaine]

The liberals use repeating lies to try to make lies reality.

We have to have the same monkish chant "Its the person not the tool". Repeat it like zombies. Say it again and again. It's the truth and the truth will reach rational people eventually.

Good people are busy. They have lives, kids, important stuff to do. They don't pay attention a lot of them. A simple message like "It's the person not the tool" will eventually register. It will just take a while and a lot of repetition.

The loss of personal responsibility probably started eroding a lot earlier but it struck me when I started hearing alcoholism, drug addiction and obesity are diseases. I can't imagine the pain that definition of self inflicted circumstances brings to someone that has cancer or family members of cancers sufferers.

I think there are a lot of examples of shit happening to day the "Joe" sees and the message is getting through. Joe works hard, sacrifices and applies discipline to manage his life and it's hard but he does it because he knows it is right. He sees a lot of people getting a pass and rewarded for it. Joe is tired and ready for a new direction. He just needs the clear simple message to lead him. The other sides message is so fucked up and hypocritical - good for the goose but NOT good for the gander BS that Joe will turn away if he gets the truth.

Thats my optimistic hope anyway.

The hard part is that the biggest message outlets are solidly against the truth reaching Joe.

Thats why it's imperative when you or Mr Irwin speak to the media the right message gets out.

I would like to see the biased media as much concerned about speaking to you as we are of speaking to them.

They need to go into the chess match feeling vulnerable you will let truth into their BS. They hate truth and currently they go into the match thinking of you and Mr Irwin as dumb hicks they will use as their useful idiot. You of course are not but you are good people without an agenda.

Therin lies our problem. They are at least committed to ideas while we just want to live ordinary lives. Until we make these issues our Agenda and unite behind them we are weak and vulnerable.

Someone is coming at us with the idea to destroy us and we greet them as an unbiased person looking for truth. We need to greet them as equally armed and purposed as they are.

 

[diverdon]

Tom clarified, I think I'll trust him over the media any day of the week. Whether AI decides to take legal action against them, well that is neither cheap nor rapid to happen, as well as I would highly doubt they would let that cat out of the bag before the filing anyhow. I would absolutely not relate them not filing for them hiding anything, would even say the same thing a year from now.

When I first came to the Hide seven years ago, we had a ton of industry reps active on here. We had inside scoop on upcoming products, delivery status, product support, etc, and life was pretty damn good. One by one, they keep getting run off because a select few take issue with one thing or another, take things to a personal level, bad mouth not only their company but also them personally, and it's almost always petty bullshit like pricing, delivery, or a minor defect that even though they were taken care of, often above and beyond what was required by the company, they still try to take them to task on it. Nightforce, KAC, Surefire, GAP, DT, Vortex, S&B, AAC, PH, Hensoldt, all have had reps quit posting on here over the years because of drama. This one is certainly seeming like it's going in that direction as well. For full disclosure, the only thing AI in my inventory are a few magazines like most everyone else here, I'm on a R700 action, SWFA scope and SMK budget of late.

I'm a staunch supporter of the 2A, traditionalist believer in it where I feel civilians should have the right to all weaponry including anything you would find in any infantry division; mortars, tanks, artillery and AT missiles inclusive. And I also personally feel bump stocks are fucking stupid, right up there with chrome lined pencil barrels and >7# "combat" triggers. They're some serious TAPCO level bullshit that does little more than cause inexperienced and overzealous shooters impact beyond their backstop into whatever neighborhood may be beyond their Bobcat dug berm, all just to see how fast they can dump their Wolf ammo in the general direction of a paper plate stapled to a 2x4 post. Does that mean I think they should be banned? Of course not, but a reporter would be fast as hell to take that as "Marine Sniper ______ _______ stated 'Bump stocks are f---ing stupid.' last week on a popular shooting forum, further showing even shooters support banning those items." Reporters have less ethics than an ambulance chasing lawyer, biased to their agenda through and through, that's a fact and everyone here knows that.

Some of you are completely falling for the epitome of Fake News, head over heels stumbling over one another to burn the wrong witch.

Sir you make many excellent points, but the reps from all the companies you mention were not driven off only because of a few asswipes. In the time of which you speak the Snipershide was on it's way to 100,000 members. I think a many said going to Scout was a mistake and they were proven correct. How many members does the Hide have today? It will take a real good run before we see 100,000 again. Should that happy day come I'll bet many of those people you mention find their way back.

Rather than thinking that some blowhard ran of a manufacture let us rather think that those manufactures who have stuck with the hide, even today when it is but a shadow of what it was, are here because they believe as we do. I appreciate Kasey, RRS, and Tom Irwin sticking with us in spite of the assholes and the reduced membership. In so far as I can I reward them with my support.

 

[Redmanss]

Some chose Facebook over Scout, like making a deal with the devil was better than eating a turd sandwich. At least Scout, prior to being acquired by CBS, supported gun rights. Facebook is outright antigun. But whatever on that one. Nightforce and PH reps were driven off, I specifically remember those threads.

 

[Lowlight]

There was never 100,000 active, that was an accumulation of 13 years growth prior to Scout.

We lost about 1/2 the active members moving to Scout, and during that time Scout replaced 2/3s of those lost through the network. They weren't quality replacements, but numbers wise, before we ditched Scout it pretty close to our original numbers. Many just did not participate outright but were on the site. If anything scout was all about counting heads, so I saw it everyday.

Today we are seeing growth return, we regained a lot of the lost numbers. It's still down, but nothing it like was the first 6 months of Scout. Forum participation is actually up, and active user numbers are growing again. It's incremental but noticeable, the biggest change and growth came from the articles and videos that never existed to the degree they do today. I learned a bunch about that through Scout and it helped me refine the videos.

Now, some companies have changed their social media strategies and there are several that don't allow forum participation anymore. Many of those same reps will contact me on a monthly if not weekly basis. They still watch but have to be careful how they participate. We certainly did have members who almost ruined it for us, luckily I generally keep good relationships with these guys.

But behind the scenes when you look at the raw numbers, it's growing again.

 

[pmclaine]

Instead of getting butt hurt join the Agenda.

You better find something to agree on and perhaps ignore or compromise on what you don't......

and compromise only extends amongst our own like minded interest people, not the ass wipes on the other side mind you.

Picking up your ball and going away will only leave you playing with your own balls and likely to have two other guys from the other side use your sensitivity against you to make you look like an ass.

 

[Lowlight]

FYI, for the guys who think they have clue,

Numbers don't lie, although they don't tell the whole story, they can be illuminating



952 vs 2459.... I think will be okay, especially since it is growing every month

 

[myronman3]

i think many of you are missing the opportunity we have here. i'm 44. i've been in the gun communtiy from the time i could walk. i've been around many generations of gun owners. my grandfather, my father, me, and the current generation all had differing values on given topics. such as....the media. my grandfather's generation....trusted everything they were fed. my father's generation still had much of that mindset, but started questioning things. my generation...about half see them for the lying fucks they are, and the other half isnt paying attention. the kids....i think we have a giant opportunity here. in my life, i have NEVER seen as many people aware of how much the media lies. it's common knowlege, and although i dont bring it up, i am always surprised at how much other people bring it up when talking to me.

the media is repeatedly showing their hand as bias...and it doesnt sit well with the many of the remaining generations. one need look no further than the sexual harrasment lynchings. that behavior was tolerated by previous generations. the millenials and the gen Z are learning about it...and it is NOT getting a pass.

There is an opportunity to seize here....teach kids. young adults. hell, anyone but the media (they can fuck themselves). an educated person is a lot harder to bullshit or mislead than someone who is ignorant....obviously.

combine that with the intolerance for shennigans, and there is a REAL opportunity. the media is pulling out all the stops to get trump. it ISNT going to work. the youth are seeing this, and rejecting it all. get off your asses, and teach new shooters. avoid media asshats. i predict that in the next ten years, we are either going to win bigger than anyone ever imagined, or lose it all. whether we seize the opportunity or not will have a large impact on which way the cookie crumbles.

 

[Dewey7271]

Ok. So what is the agenda?
We gonna sit around and bitch when the surreptitious grab continues or act?
Frank, maybe you and a group of other HMFICs talk out a plan. Something proactive instead of reactive. You may be the best of us to do that with all the reps and companies you have coming to you. Maybe you already do so. No disrespect intended, by the way.
It just seems to me the other side already has an endgame and as long as we are groups of one, we lose.
No doubt Tom got bushwhacked by the reporter. If it can happen to him we are certainly vulnerable.
I don't trust the NRA and some of the other lobbying groups. I belong there, GOA and a few others but only because they seemed like the only game in town at the time.
I realize by nature we're a group of individuals but damn, something has to change or we lose stuff one at a time.

 

[Lowlight]

I have done stuff locally with RMGO, which is also NAGR, they are super aggressive.

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Unfortunately what I have noticed is, much of that effort is strictly fundraising. We definitely need money to fight this stuff but a lot of that money appears to get sat on. They tend to squirrel it away and will use it for media stuff, but most of that is selling themselves back to the choir.

In other words, what I have noticed being around them is, their efforts just talk back to gun owners. They preach to the choir and come off a bit aggressive to the ones not already "with us" ... they get censured a lot here in CO for their tactics, and while gun owners will cheerlead what they do and say, it's not very good at bringing in new blood.

We almost need two efforts, the one that speaks to gun owners who are already on the team and a different message to recruit new people into the fold.

I honestly wish I had a magic bullet or at least some answers, I just don't, it's pretty fluid and just not my focus. It's certainly a full time job and you have to respect them for their efforts.

 

[myronman3]

for the reasons you mention in the post above is why i avoid the NRA.

i asked myself a long time ago, "what can I do on MY level that is going to make a difference?" the only answer i can come up with is recruiting new shooters. it's easier than one might think. keep your eyes and ears open for someone who wants to learn. just be careful to be knowlegable without talking down. that's the biggest thing. make it fun. and i have to say, it's effective. grow the ranks of people who shoot. that's the key.

 

[pmclaine]

Each of us has to be the ambassador.

I had an older gentleman come into work today. He was neat because he was driving a 1950 something Chevrolet cabover engine with a high flat all restored.

He had just gotten his handgun license which in this state is a concealed carry license.

He had questions about what to do now and he had been by his local police department and couldnt get a meeting with the department licensing officer because I think intentionally they structure his licensing duties to be as inconvenient as possible and this "Joe" is a guy that works and has important things in his life to do and lets get real the ultimate reason for the Second Amendment is vitally important but our day to day activity with guns for most is just play.

Anyway I spent a good half hour talking to the gentleman giving him answers and couching it in the disclaimer though I know what I think I know the way the laws are written they are purposely open to some interpretation and he has to take a position of "what would a reasonable and prudent person do".

At the end of it the new gunner was provided a cable lock, was sold on the idea of training and he seemed to have a bright outlook on his reasons for getting licensed and what type of people he would be considered a member of.

I never shy away from explaining the Second Amendments real purpose but it cant be done in some crazy hyperventilated way. Just ask them to consider the events of the twentieth century and realize it wasnt individuals that caused the mayhem but governments gone bad and for most people a light clicks on.

I spoke with a first amendment activist yesterday. He came at me with a video camera in my face. When asked what he was doing his answer was Im excercising my first amendment right what is your name and ID? My response was whats your name and he started into are you arresting me what have I done wrong so he got my name and ID. Its annoying and uncomfortable even if he has a right. So I asked him no more questions he got his answer to his one question and he is probably fapping somewhere to my awesome presence on his video.

Tell you what though the douche left the building and came back a few minutes later and thanked me for not taking his bait. Later I talked to someone local and when they had contact with him it was not verbal but being flipped off while being filmed. I guess I can be thankful I didnt get that. That person didnt take his bait either.

Though he is doing a good thing by exercising his right his way of doing it doesnt make friends. Consider that with the open carry displays and such. I realize that in some places the govt forces people to make that "protest" but if its going to be done do it a manner that is not in your face but intended to make friends and make "Joe" think "wait a minute these are good people, good people will be responsible with guns. Its the person not the tool."

If you are that committed, and I commend you if you are, that the idea of shocking and alarming people in Walmart with your slung AR is a good one try doing something different. The USMC educates thousands of people every year about weapons in a non threatening manner. If you ever go to a dog and pony show they lay the weapons out in a static display and more often than not its supervised hands on for the masses. Non threatening, no hype, just a display of the tools that we are lucky to have good guys wield. I think there might be city ordinances to deal with because of the stationary nature but instead of walking open carry to alarm, how about a static display to educate. Call it "Meet an AR15 and a good guy/gal that owns one" let people handle one and dispel their fears with facts.

People with no education are scared by the media reporting and the reality of some of these heinous events. That is the medias intent to scare them in hopes they will trade freedom for a tale of security that will never actually be provided.

But that is off topic. The point of this is that a good guy was taken advantage of by a scum sucking swamp reporter with an intent and agenda to hurt him and if we take the scum sucking swamp reporter at face value than we have given him the victory he sought.