Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Terry Cross said:
Rifle Scopes Totally disgusted with Leupold
- Thread starter Terry Cross
- Start date
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Good thread.. It's a good thing I found it as I "WAS" in the market for a new MK4 in 6.5 x 20 but I think my mind has now changed.. I guess their 4 x 12 rifleman scope at walmart for $249.00 is all their good for now.. Instead I think I'll just try one of the Millet TRS models and save some cash since I can't afford a $3000.00 scope right now.. The Millet may not be completely made in USA, or any of it for that matter.. But atleast I am not being BS'd by the Corporate sellouts.. Pink bino's?? I thought I saw something about that? Plus, I have 2 Nikon's that have equall quality glass and they were 1/3rd the price of my last MK4 4.5 x 14.. Thanks for all the good info..
Good thread.. It's a good thing I found it as I "WAS" in the market for a new MK4 in 6.5 x 20 but I think my mind has now changed.. I guess their 4 x 12 rifleman scope at walmart for $249.00 is all their good for now.. Instead I think I'll just try one of the Millet TRS models and save some cash since I can't afford a $3000.00 scope right now.. The Millet may not be completely made in USA, or any of it for that matter.. But atleast I am not being BS'd by the Corporate sellouts.. Pink bino's?? I thought I saw something about that? Plus, I have 2 Nikon's that have equall quality glass and they were 1/3rd the price of my last MK4 4.5 x 14.. Thanks for all the good info..
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reelman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reelman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's all about the bottom dollar at Leupold. </div></div>
That's called being a business. If it's not about the bottom dollar then you won't be in business very long. </div></div>
Not entirely. I don't think USO or GAP would have the reputations they do if they cared more about money than quality.
There's being successful, and there's being greedy. </div></div>
You mention two of the most expensive makers of there represenative product line. Yes they care about quality but they also make a good amount of money from making the best out there, if they didn't make money they wouldn't be around very long. </div></div>
Then I'll use myself as an example. I offer services at prices lower than most of my competitors. It costs me almost as much for machining, and my products are 2nd to none IMO.
I charge just enough to make a profit, and get by. Why don't I charge more? Because that's how I want to do business. I'm doing this because I love it. I'm thankful as hell that I'm doing this and nothing else.
I'm pretty poor too. I can barely pay for gunsmithing school and food.
And don't get me wrong, I understand what your saying. But cutting American jobs and giving them to the Chinesse right now, all the while charging MORE, should be Freakin treason.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reelman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reelman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's all about the bottom dollar at Leupold. </div></div>
That's called being a business. If it's not about the bottom dollar then you won't be in business very long. </div></div>
Not entirely. I don't think USO or GAP would have the reputations they do if they cared more about money than quality.
There's being successful, and there's being greedy. </div></div>
You mention two of the most expensive makers of there represenative product line. Yes they care about quality but they also make a good amount of money from making the best out there, if they didn't make money they wouldn't be around very long. </div></div>
Then I'll use myself as an example. I offer services at prices lower than most of my competitors. It costs me almost as much for machining, and my products are 2nd to none IMO.
I charge just enough to make a profit, and get by. Why don't I charge more? Because that's how I want to do business. I'm doing this because I love it. I'm thankful as hell that I'm doing this and nothing else.
I'm pretty poor too. I can barely pay for gunsmithing school and food.
And don't get me wrong, I understand what your saying. But cutting American jobs and giving them to the Chinesse right now, all the while charging MORE, should be Freakin treason.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
us manufacturing is pretty much dead. the printing industry im in is full of used to be machinists and fabricaters from numerous trades who cant find work actually making products here anymore. too bad to hear leupold has sold us up river. seems like many who are still here use mexican labor.damn shame seems weve sufferd economic defeat from trying to compete with asian children.
us manufacturing is pretty much dead. the printing industry im in is full of used to be machinists and fabricaters from numerous trades who cant find work actually making products here anymore. too bad to hear leupold has sold us up river. seems like many who are still here use mexican labor.damn shame seems weve sufferd economic defeat from trying to compete with asian children.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Jack,
we see the military side of things and our last class of 20 people had 3 Leupold's go down within the first 3 days of training. The military stuff fares just as bad if not worse due to numbers.
At our last Thunder Ranch class, a kid from a NG unit had a brand new M110 with a new Leupold on it, first day, it broke he had to drive 1.5 hours each way to get a new rifle from the armory.
We see on average between 2 and 5 Leupold's break per week with military classes and pretty close to that with civilian classes when they use them which is becoming less and less.
Jack,
we see the military side of things and our last class of 20 people had 3 Leupold's go down within the first 3 days of training. The military stuff fares just as bad if not worse due to numbers.
At our last Thunder Ranch class, a kid from a NG unit had a brand new M110 with a new Leupold on it, first day, it broke he had to drive 1.5 hours each way to get a new rifle from the armory.
We see on average between 2 and 5 Leupold's break per week with military classes and pretty close to that with civilian classes when they use them which is becoming less and less.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
the glory days are gone, so is there a definitive point when things started downhill? 1, 5 maybe 10 years ago?
the glory days are gone, so is there a definitive point when things started downhill? 1, 5 maybe 10 years ago?
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jack,
we see the military side of things and our last class of 20 people had 3 Leupold's go down within the first 3 days of training. The military stuff fares just as bad if not worse due to numbers.
We see on average between 2 and 5 Leupold's break per week with military classes and pretty close to that with civilian classes when they use them which is becoming less and less. </div></div>
That about says it then. If this wasn't the norm for leupys in the past, but is now, then that sums it up
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jack,
we see the military side of things and our last class of 20 people had 3 Leupold's go down within the first 3 days of training. The military stuff fares just as bad if not worse due to numbers.
We see on average between 2 and 5 Leupold's break per week with military classes and pretty close to that with civilian classes when they use them which is becoming less and less. </div></div>
That about says it then. If this wasn't the norm for leupys in the past, but is now, then that sums it up
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
i got some older VariIII's w/premier mildots i should sell....they have never gone down......
i got some older VariIII's w/premier mildots i should sell....they have never gone down......
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
so how long will it be before the Army starts swapping for something else or will it come to that with all the bureaucracy involved
so how long will it be before the Army starts swapping for something else or will it come to that with all the bureaucracy involved
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Does anyone know for certain when leupold first started out sourcing to China? The exact date?
I dont know why I thought of this, but aren't the USMC's M40A3's like 3x as expensive as the Army's M24s?
And do I remember right that the USMC uses S&Bs now too?
Does anyone know for certain when leupold first started out sourcing to China? The exact date?
I dont know why I thought of this, but aren't the USMC's M40A3's like 3x as expensive as the Army's M24s?
And do I remember right that the USMC uses S&Bs now too?
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
The Marine Corps M40s are produced by the Precision Weapons Section at Quantico. While the Marine Corps accountants probably know what it cost them to produce each one, I doubt those figures are publically available.
The Marine Corps is currently using S&B scopes.
BTW, there is a nice article about PWS in the April issue of "Leatherneck" magazine.
The Marine Corps M40s are produced by the Precision Weapons Section at Quantico. While the Marine Corps accountants probably know what it cost them to produce each one, I doubt those figures are publically available.
The Marine Corps is currently using S&B scopes.
BTW, there is a nice article about PWS in the April issue of "Leatherneck" magazine.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Rock-N-Ruin, Don't laugh at those pink binos. I have no idea about the quality of them as I've never looked through them nor would I, being a man, ever buy one for myself but the pink stuff is some of the hottest stuff on the market right now. I thought it was a joke the first time I saw a pink rod and reel but after seeing sales figures I will never laugh at them anymore.
Rock-N-Ruin, Don't laugh at those pink binos. I have no idea about the quality of them as I've never looked through them nor would I, being a man, ever buy one for myself but the pink stuff is some of the hottest stuff on the market right now. I thought it was a joke the first time I saw a pink rod and reel but after seeing sales figures I will never laugh at them anymore.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Man, I will never look at Leupold the same after reading this thread. I was deciding between an NF and ordering USO anyway, but I was still willing to buy a Leupy to use until I had the money for a USO. Now, I'm just going to save and wait.
Man, I will never look at Leupold the same after reading this thread. I was deciding between an NF and ordering USO anyway, but I was still willing to buy a Leupy to use until I had the money for a USO. Now, I'm just going to save and wait.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Corporately these companies moving overseas has caught up with them as their
customer base finally has not got the money to buy their products. Not one news
report, not one CEO has had the brains to figure it out yet.
Corporately these companies moving overseas has caught up with them as their
customer base finally has not got the money to buy their products. Not one news
report, not one CEO has had the brains to figure it out yet.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rdsii64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why don't companies like us optics make a line of optics that don't have 4 digit price tags.</div></div>
http://www.usoptics.com/product.php?partnumber=ST-1000
$945 SRP, you should really contact http://www.rwsnydergunsmithing.com/ for a quote. You may be quite surprised the value available to us peasants.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Corporately these companies moving overseas has caught up with them as their customer base finally has not got the money to buy their products.</div></div>
It could be argued the Japs figured it out and built plants here, though too little too late. If Americans are going to be suckered into a $40,000 pick-up, they might need a decent paying job. Maybe the big three should have invested in donkey farms.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rdsii64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why don't companies like us optics make a line of optics that don't have 4 digit price tags.</div></div>
http://www.usoptics.com/product.php?partnumber=ST-1000
$945 SRP, you should really contact http://www.rwsnydergunsmithing.com/ for a quote. You may be quite surprised the value available to us peasants.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Corporately these companies moving overseas has caught up with them as their customer base finally has not got the money to buy their products.</div></div>
It could be argued the Japs figured it out and built plants here, though too little too late. If Americans are going to be suckered into a $40,000 pick-up, they might need a decent paying job. Maybe the big three should have invested in donkey farms.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Terry, It bothers most of us, but for me (and others) it means my job. I work for Honeywell and they are outsourcing 80% of production to Malaysia this year. I have been with the company for 30 years, saw it grow from small to world leader in Avionics and then get sold to Honeywell then Allied. A few years of no meaningful Research and Development and the writing was on the wall. They have been told labor is 20% of the USA rate and the CEO cannot kick us to the curb fast enough. Most of us MADE this outfit succesful through sharp minds and hard work. I know in my heart that they could stay in the USA, build better (more innovative and safer) product and still turn a profit, but CEO's driven by Corporate Greed only care about their pocket, not the community the factory is in, or the country they are selling out.
I think shooters should concentrate on one or two really good rifles with all USA parts instead of having a vault full of shit from China. Support the American manufacturer and American Labor or we will be a "third world" country in a few years.
I looked at a new US Optics ST-10 just this past week for $1,080 if I recall. You can do a lot of good work with a good 10x scope AND keep your hard earned dollars in this country!
Terry, It bothers most of us, but for me (and others) it means my job. I work for Honeywell and they are outsourcing 80% of production to Malaysia this year. I have been with the company for 30 years, saw it grow from small to world leader in Avionics and then get sold to Honeywell then Allied. A few years of no meaningful Research and Development and the writing was on the wall. They have been told labor is 20% of the USA rate and the CEO cannot kick us to the curb fast enough. Most of us MADE this outfit succesful through sharp minds and hard work. I know in my heart that they could stay in the USA, build better (more innovative and safer) product and still turn a profit, but CEO's driven by Corporate Greed only care about their pocket, not the community the factory is in, or the country they are selling out.
I think shooters should concentrate on one or two really good rifles with all USA parts instead of having a vault full of shit from China. Support the American manufacturer and American Labor or we will be a "third world" country in a few years.
I looked at a new US Optics ST-10 just this past week for $1,080 if I recall. You can do a lot of good work with a good 10x scope AND keep your hard earned dollars in this country!
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Heres yet another reason this thread is going. This weekend I "tried" to sight in a new Rem. SPS, unfortunately sitting atop it was a Mark 4. This scope was bought new by a buddy of mine a few years back and was sent out to Premier Reticals for a custom ret. as well. It only has about 300 - 400 round's under it's belt. However, when I tried to sight it in, the windage knob would not track worth a shit! I'd get it close, move over an 1"... nothing, move another 1"... nothing, move ANOTHER 1" nothing! Then the dame thing would move over about 4-5" in one shot! There's probably $1200 - $1400 in this POS and it's worthless. To make matter's worse, if you call Leupold, their going to tell me Premier screwed it up, if I call Premier, their going to tell me it's a Leupold problem, so what do you do? I'll let you know how I make out, if I get the run around like I think I will your going to see a scope become a target real quick!
Heres yet another reason this thread is going. This weekend I "tried" to sight in a new Rem. SPS, unfortunately sitting atop it was a Mark 4. This scope was bought new by a buddy of mine a few years back and was sent out to Premier Reticals for a custom ret. as well. It only has about 300 - 400 round's under it's belt. However, when I tried to sight it in, the windage knob would not track worth a shit! I'd get it close, move over an 1"... nothing, move another 1"... nothing, move ANOTHER 1" nothing! Then the dame thing would move over about 4-5" in one shot! There's probably $1200 - $1400 in this POS and it's worthless. To make matter's worse, if you call Leupold, their going to tell me Premier screwed it up, if I call Premier, their going to tell me it's a Leupold problem, so what do you do? I'll let you know how I make out, if I get the run around like I think I will your going to see a scope become a target real quick!
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Terry,
Agreed with most here that we are sick of corporate greed. Most here would also agree that when they see quality go down then sales will follow. So the greed part is only short term. They not only want more money, they want it now. And they don't care who inherits the company when they are done.
Part of our problem here is too many Americans trustingly invested their money in Corporate America either through stocks or Mutual Funds and sometimes Bonds. No one is investing in themselves. I'll tell you what I do see that I really like here is companies like USO, GAP and other custom builders here, and a lot of the other smaller companies providing goods here that are investing in themselves and growing themselves. Instead of taking the easy way out and going to Wall Street or Market Street and giving up major chunks of their company just to get going. Their investors are the customers. Their businesses have grown according to that. No un-involved trust fund babies to come in and raid the til to support their lifestyles. That's how business should be run in this country. Long before Wall Street and Market Street got powerful small businesses could make it in this country. It's a lot harder to do that now. Fortunately, we still have the choice to buy quality when we see it.
Terry,
Agreed with most here that we are sick of corporate greed. Most here would also agree that when they see quality go down then sales will follow. So the greed part is only short term. They not only want more money, they want it now. And they don't care who inherits the company when they are done.
Part of our problem here is too many Americans trustingly invested their money in Corporate America either through stocks or Mutual Funds and sometimes Bonds. No one is investing in themselves. I'll tell you what I do see that I really like here is companies like USO, GAP and other custom builders here, and a lot of the other smaller companies providing goods here that are investing in themselves and growing themselves. Instead of taking the easy way out and going to Wall Street or Market Street and giving up major chunks of their company just to get going. Their investors are the customers. Their businesses have grown according to that. No un-involved trust fund babies to come in and raid the til to support their lifestyles. That's how business should be run in this country. Long before Wall Street and Market Street got powerful small businesses could make it in this country. It's a lot harder to do that now. Fortunately, we still have the choice to buy quality when we see it.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Jack,
Their contract scopes come from the same production line as all scopes of the same model. SNs and such are in the same line up. Ditto for the "L.E." model scopes.
Remember that these days, most of the scopes delivered on new rifle systems are part of a "package" that is spec'd out and delivered in a turn key bundle from Knights, Rem or who ever. USMC being the exception. Even the new PSR program has all participants picking the scopes, suppressors, bipods, etc. that will be forwarded for the trials as a "package". Some of those suppliers are rifle companies. Some are simply large brokers that deal in everything from NV to LRF to SWS. Everyone of them order the scopes from the manufacturer or distributor and ship on the rifle. Again, those scopes are standard production. Even if the vendor has enough volume to spec a weird reticle / click combo, the scope is still made on the same assembly line.
Bill and Sandwarrior, I agree. It's not just the plants, assembly lines and machines that can't be replaced here overnight. Hell, if you gave me the keys to a fully furnished modern factory today, it would be months or even a couple of years before I could have the new workforce trained and experienced enough to be consistently turning out top shelf product. This is not like a new fast food place where you just get all the new kids that work there making burgers and shit for fun, eating what they turn out for a couple of days and then opening the doors for business.
Leupold is turning into another Honeywell and Wal-Mart but they are screaming "U.S.A."! and waving <span style="font-weight: bold">MY</span> flag as hard as they can. I think it was Judge Judy that said "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". Well Leupold and many others are showing a lot of "rain" in their long term weather forcasts. Get your boots on.
Jack,
Their contract scopes come from the same production line as all scopes of the same model. SNs and such are in the same line up. Ditto for the "L.E." model scopes.
Remember that these days, most of the scopes delivered on new rifle systems are part of a "package" that is spec'd out and delivered in a turn key bundle from Knights, Rem or who ever. USMC being the exception. Even the new PSR program has all participants picking the scopes, suppressors, bipods, etc. that will be forwarded for the trials as a "package". Some of those suppliers are rifle companies. Some are simply large brokers that deal in everything from NV to LRF to SWS. Everyone of them order the scopes from the manufacturer or distributor and ship on the rifle. Again, those scopes are standard production. Even if the vendor has enough volume to spec a weird reticle / click combo, the scope is still made on the same assembly line.
Bill and Sandwarrior, I agree. It's not just the plants, assembly lines and machines that can't be replaced here overnight. Hell, if you gave me the keys to a fully furnished modern factory today, it would be months or even a couple of years before I could have the new workforce trained and experienced enough to be consistently turning out top shelf product. This is not like a new fast food place where you just get all the new kids that work there making burgers and shit for fun, eating what they turn out for a couple of days and then opening the doors for business.
Leupold is turning into another Honeywell and Wal-Mart but they are screaming "U.S.A."! and waving <span style="font-weight: bold">MY</span> flag as hard as they can. I think it was Judge Judy that said "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". Well Leupold and many others are showing a lot of "rain" in their long term weather forcasts. Get your boots on.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
We have this ongoing list on the wall showing the latest companies and products which have sold out the U.S. workers and the list is long. Leupold of course is on the list with only certain products, such as the Mark 4 Rings, but the one that caused the most commotion in my wife’s side of the family was Henry Repeating Arms Company.
I was casually discussing my work at a family dinner one Sunday and began discussing imports and my father-in-law mentioned that at least his favorite rifle, being a lever-action Henry Repeating Arms was still made in the great U.S.A.
Things went down hill quickly from there, since I mentioned that there not made in the U.S. either, even though they claim they are. I haven’t asked lately, but I think he sold it a few weeks later.
Short story, you might be surprised as to what is being sold as U.S. Made and not actually true.
We have this ongoing list on the wall showing the latest companies and products which have sold out the U.S. workers and the list is long. Leupold of course is on the list with only certain products, such as the Mark 4 Rings, but the one that caused the most commotion in my wife’s side of the family was Henry Repeating Arms Company.
I was casually discussing my work at a family dinner one Sunday and began discussing imports and my father-in-law mentioned that at least his favorite rifle, being a lever-action Henry Repeating Arms was still made in the great U.S.A.
Short story, you might be surprised as to what is being sold as U.S. Made and not actually true.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
I think it is all about the bottom dollar just about everywhere. There is a vicious cycle where more and more stock holders want to see a profit each year, employees want raises, executives have to be paid much more to keep them from floating their resume to other, better paying companies, and the price of things keep rising to meet all the demands (I left out a couple). Something had to give.
This argument is a continuation of one that I maintained with my father over about a decade. As a UAW man, he could work on Christmas and make something like $175 an hour for just being at work. (They played cards). At the same time, his GM stock was peaking at around $90 a share (Clinton era, look it up). During this time, one could look at the wealthiest entities on Earth and be amazed that the US was # 1 and GMC was something like #7, well above most countries in the world. With over 1,000 senior vice presidents making a 1/4 mil, and the union demanding more and more for its workers, the increase to pricing on cars alone was not enough to quench the thirsts of both the employees and stock holders. Something had to give.
Leupold is not alone. If you truly think it is important in regard to this item in your life, like I do, then you buy something from people you know and trust, even if it costs more.
But Terry's post was not just about where the stuff comes from.
It also discussed quality, and the company that ignores this key ingredient to their livelihood will soon suffer. His post may have generated a back-woods grassroots campaign that outgrows this one website. On Saturday night, I was at Gander Mountain buying 180lb test fishing line to defeat the squirrel gang that is trying to take over my birdfeeders. (Please don't tell me I should just kill them. I am trying to get a sufficiently large meat zoo thriving in my yard in case we have to go back to living on squirrel gravy). I stopped over by the optics case to look at the LRF's and I overheard an older man tell the guy that was with him that, "He don't buy no Leupold stuff no more." They never mentioned Terry by name, but the double negatives cancel each other out and make it a truth.
I think it is all about the bottom dollar just about everywhere. There is a vicious cycle where more and more stock holders want to see a profit each year, employees want raises, executives have to be paid much more to keep them from floating their resume to other, better paying companies, and the price of things keep rising to meet all the demands (I left out a couple). Something had to give.
This argument is a continuation of one that I maintained with my father over about a decade. As a UAW man, he could work on Christmas and make something like $175 an hour for just being at work. (They played cards). At the same time, his GM stock was peaking at around $90 a share (Clinton era, look it up). During this time, one could look at the wealthiest entities on Earth and be amazed that the US was # 1 and GMC was something like #7, well above most countries in the world. With over 1,000 senior vice presidents making a 1/4 mil, and the union demanding more and more for its workers, the increase to pricing on cars alone was not enough to quench the thirsts of both the employees and stock holders. Something had to give.
Leupold is not alone. If you truly think it is important in regard to this item in your life, like I do, then you buy something from people you know and trust, even if it costs more.
But Terry's post was not just about where the stuff comes from.
It also discussed quality, and the company that ignores this key ingredient to their livelihood will soon suffer. His post may have generated a back-woods grassroots campaign that outgrows this one website. On Saturday night, I was at Gander Mountain buying 180lb test fishing line to defeat the squirrel gang that is trying to take over my birdfeeders. (Please don't tell me I should just kill them. I am trying to get a sufficiently large meat zoo thriving in my yard in case we have to go back to living on squirrel gravy). I stopped over by the optics case to look at the LRF's and I overheard an older man tell the guy that was with him that, "He don't buy no Leupold stuff no more." They never mentioned Terry by name, but the double negatives cancel each other out and make it a truth.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
hello terry---a year or so ago you gave me some excellent advice as a "new-old" shooter---i made good use of it---thank you for your time---the marine corps taught me to shoot along time ago---they used a rifle made in the USA---i am relearning but i still remember much---and i am using a rifle made in the USA---oh....i drive a 40 year old truck---just seems right
hello terry---a year or so ago you gave me some excellent advice as a "new-old" shooter---i made good use of it---thank you for your time---the marine corps taught me to shoot along time ago---they used a rifle made in the USA---i am relearning but i still remember much---and i am using a rifle made in the USA---oh....i drive a 40 year old truck---just seems right
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
A paradigm existed in some people's thinking in which moving production of material goods offshore to places where wages were lower was an unqualified good thing - because it would reduce the costs of products.
If it were true that those people whose jobs were moved offshore could all have gotten jobs, perhaps after some brief retraining, as systems analysts, it might have actually been an unqualified good thing.
That turns out, though, not to be the case. Many of the people who had well-paying productions jobs could only find work at much lower wages, if at all. Not everyone has the intellectual horsepower to be a systems analyst or a Cisco Certified Internetworking Engineer.
And the jobs as systems analysts are now also being outsourced to India, Russia, and elsewhere.
Which leaves flipping hamburgers and other lowly-paid service industry jobs. Those are jobs which will not provide a good living for a family.
The Law of Unintended Consequences can be a harsh taskmaster.
A paradigm existed in some people's thinking in which moving production of material goods offshore to places where wages were lower was an unqualified good thing - because it would reduce the costs of products.
If it were true that those people whose jobs were moved offshore could all have gotten jobs, perhaps after some brief retraining, as systems analysts, it might have actually been an unqualified good thing.
That turns out, though, not to be the case. Many of the people who had well-paying productions jobs could only find work at much lower wages, if at all. Not everyone has the intellectual horsepower to be a systems analyst or a Cisco Certified Internetworking Engineer.
And the jobs as systems analysts are now also being outsourced to India, Russia, and elsewhere.
Which leaves flipping hamburgers and other lowly-paid service industry jobs. Those are jobs which will not provide a good living for a family.
The Law of Unintended Consequences can be a harsh taskmaster.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheMachinist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.
I was casually discussing my work at a family dinner one Sunday and began discussing imports and my father-in-law mentioned that at least his favorite rifle, being a lever-action Henry Repeating Arms was still made in the great U.S.A. Things went down hill quickly from there, since I mentioned that there not made in the U.S. either, even though they claim they are. I haven’t asked lately, but I think he sold it a few weeks later.
</div></div>
Well damn, learn something new everyday.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheMachinist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.
I was casually discussing my work at a family dinner one Sunday and began discussing imports and my father-in-law mentioned that at least his favorite rifle, being a lever-action Henry Repeating Arms was still made in the great U.S.A.
</div></div>
Well damn, learn something new everyday.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A paradigm existed in some people's thinking in which moving production of material goods offshore to places where wages were lower was an unqualified good thing - because it would reduce the costs of products.
If it were true that those people whose jobs were moved offshore could all have gotten jobs, perhaps after some brief retraining, as systems analysts, it might have actually been an unqualified good thing.
That turns out, though, not to be the case. Many of the people who had well-paying productions jobs could only find work at much lower wages, if at all. Not everyone has the intellectual horsepower to be a systems analyst or a Cisco Certified Internetworking Engineer.
And the jobs as systems analysts are now also being outsourced to India, Russia, and elsewhere.
Which leaves flipping hamburgers and other lowly-paid service industry jobs. Those are jobs which will not provide a good living for a family.
The Law of Unintended Consequences can be a harsh taskmaster.
</div></div>
Many Americans who were employed in well paying manufacturing jobs were laid off when US manufacturing was outsourced to other countries. Many of these laid off American workers were told to re-train (mostly at their own expense) so they could get jobs in the IT field. Then those IT jobs were also outsourced, mostly to Asian countries. What a deal!
Globalism at its finest hour.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A paradigm existed in some people's thinking in which moving production of material goods offshore to places where wages were lower was an unqualified good thing - because it would reduce the costs of products.
If it were true that those people whose jobs were moved offshore could all have gotten jobs, perhaps after some brief retraining, as systems analysts, it might have actually been an unqualified good thing.
That turns out, though, not to be the case. Many of the people who had well-paying productions jobs could only find work at much lower wages, if at all. Not everyone has the intellectual horsepower to be a systems analyst or a Cisco Certified Internetworking Engineer.
And the jobs as systems analysts are now also being outsourced to India, Russia, and elsewhere.
Which leaves flipping hamburgers and other lowly-paid service industry jobs. Those are jobs which will not provide a good living for a family.
The Law of Unintended Consequences can be a harsh taskmaster.
</div></div>
Many Americans who were employed in well paying manufacturing jobs were laid off when US manufacturing was outsourced to other countries. Many of these laid off American workers were told to re-train (mostly at their own expense) so they could get jobs in the IT field. Then those IT jobs were also outsourced, mostly to Asian countries. What a deal!
Globalism at its finest hour.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jack,
we see the military side of things and our last class of 20 people had 3 Leupold's go down within the first 3 days of training. The military stuff fares just as bad if not worse due to numbers.
At our last Thunder Ranch class, a kid from a NG unit had a brand new M110 with a new Leupold on it, first day, it broke he had to drive 1.5 hours each way to get a new rifle from the armory.
We see on average between 2 and 5 Leupold's break per week with military classes and pretty close to that with civilian classes when they use them which is becoming less and less. </div></div>
what breaks on the mark4's ?
what scopes have you seen at your calsses that havent had failures ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jack,
we see the military side of things and our last class of 20 people had 3 Leupold's go down within the first 3 days of training. The military stuff fares just as bad if not worse due to numbers.
At our last Thunder Ranch class, a kid from a NG unit had a brand new M110 with a new Leupold on it, first day, it broke he had to drive 1.5 hours each way to get a new rifle from the armory.
We see on average between 2 and 5 Leupold's break per week with military classes and pretty close to that with civilian classes when they use them which is becoming less and less. </div></div>
what breaks on the mark4's ?
what scopes have you seen at your calsses that havent had failures ?
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
I called leupold and ask if there parts or scope where useing china parts and i was told the only overseas parts on the mark4 scope line where the lenses ground in japan and all other parts are built here on mark4 scopes.
?
I have bought and used NF,USO,S@B,LEUPOLD MARK4's and so on..
My NXS and mark4's have all been GTG and i have owned 10 at least of each,cant say ive had any tracking or zero holding issues with them and do use my gear every week !
The internet must be harder on gear than i am ?
I called leupold and ask if there parts or scope where useing china parts and i was told the only overseas parts on the mark4 scope line where the lenses ground in japan and all other parts are built here on mark4 scopes.
?
I have bought and used NF,USO,S@B,LEUPOLD MARK4's and so on..
My NXS and mark4's have all been GTG and i have owned 10 at least of each,cant say ive had any tracking or zero holding issues with them and do use my gear every week !
The internet must be harder on gear than i am ?
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I called leupold and ask if there parts or scope where useing china parts and i was told the only overseas parts on the mark4 scope line where the lenses ground in japan and all other parts are built here on mark4 scopes.</div></div>
All of the scopes I received in the shipment referred to in the opening post are Mk 4 scopes. There is no country of origin on them or any of the packaging. I also called Leupold directly and was passed to about 3 different people (tech, sales and sales again). First two were very evasive about my questions while insisting that the Mk 4 line is manufactured in the U.S. I said "Then why on earth would any business NOT put Made in U.S.A. on such a product, especially after your company did exactly that for it's entire history until very recently?" . . . . No response. I mean none.
I finally asked "Is it because so many of the components and sub-assemblies are imported that the product cannot qualify to legally wear that stamp?" He said "Yes". He also took my e-mail address and was going to send me a company statement regarding this matter. According to him, they have a blanket response written for just such questions but he would have to dig it up and send it. That was last week and I guess he is still digging.
It was my understanding that if the lenses were the only imported parts, the product would still qualify for the Made in U.S.A. stamp. Leupold has historically used imported lenses on their scopes, especially the high grade Mk 4s and they had always legally shipped them as "made in USA".
So my opinion is the two chains of logic aren't meeting in the middle. I am going to say B.S. on their sales/marketing responses.
Here is the deal. I welcome someone, including Leupold to prove me wrong and document the real import regulations on product origin marking and what products of theirs are pure imports, which are assembled from pure imported components and sub-assemblies and which products are assembled from a mix of import and domestic components.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have bought and used NF,USO,S@B,LEUPOLD MARK4's and so on..
My NXS and mark4's have all been GTG and i have owned 10 at least of each,cant say ive had any tracking or zero holding issues with them and do use my gear every week !
The internet must be harder on gear than i am ?
</div></div>
I have no beef on any of that sir. I hope you retire and all your grand kids continue to use that gear with no issues. In fact, the odds are in your favor that you may do just that, especially if your Leupold gear is older.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I called leupold and ask if there parts or scope where useing china parts and i was told the only overseas parts on the mark4 scope line where the lenses ground in japan and all other parts are built here on mark4 scopes.</div></div>
All of the scopes I received in the shipment referred to in the opening post are Mk 4 scopes. There is no country of origin on them or any of the packaging. I also called Leupold directly and was passed to about 3 different people (tech, sales and sales again). First two were very evasive about my questions while insisting that the Mk 4 line is manufactured in the U.S. I said "Then why on earth would any business NOT put Made in U.S.A. on such a product, especially after your company did exactly that for it's entire history until very recently?" . . . . No response. I mean none.
I finally asked "Is it because so many of the components and sub-assemblies are imported that the product cannot qualify to legally wear that stamp?" He said "Yes". He also took my e-mail address and was going to send me a company statement regarding this matter. According to him, they have a blanket response written for just such questions but he would have to dig it up and send it. That was last week and I guess he is still digging.
It was my understanding that if the lenses were the only imported parts, the product would still qualify for the Made in U.S.A. stamp. Leupold has historically used imported lenses on their scopes, especially the high grade Mk 4s and they had always legally shipped them as "made in USA".
So my opinion is the two chains of logic aren't meeting in the middle. I am going to say B.S. on their sales/marketing responses.
Here is the deal. I welcome someone, including Leupold to prove me wrong and document the real import regulations on product origin marking and what products of theirs are pure imports, which are assembled from pure imported components and sub-assemblies and which products are assembled from a mix of import and domestic components.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have bought and used NF,USO,S@B,LEUPOLD MARK4's and so on..
My NXS and mark4's have all been GTG and i have owned 10 at least of each,cant say ive had any tracking or zero holding issues with them and do use my gear every week !
The internet must be harder on gear than i am ?
</div></div>
I have no beef on any of that sir. I hope you retire and all your grand kids continue to use that gear with no issues. In fact, the odds are in your favor that you may do just that, especially if your Leupold gear is older.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hrm, how the hell do they comply with the Berry Act? I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of that but.....
</div></div>
Here is what Wiki has to say about the Berry Amendment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Amendment
Cliffs Notes: Due to supply issues, there are a lot of waivers and exceptions that the DoD can use if they have to get gear in a hurry. Wiki points out that the amendment really only applies to textiles these days.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hrm, how the hell do they comply with the Berry Act? I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of that but.....
</div></div>
Here is what Wiki has to say about the Berry Amendment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Amendment
Cliffs Notes: Due to supply issues, there are a lot of waivers and exceptions that the DoD can use if they have to get gear in a hurry. Wiki points out that the amendment really only applies to textiles these days.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Well I'm glad someone with a solid knowledge base and decent reputation posted this.....otherwise it would have been a flamewar.
Terry: please fix your website because it sucks and I have a hard time drooling over the rifles when most of the pages don't come up.
Well I'm glad someone with a solid knowledge base and decent reputation posted this.....otherwise it would have been a flamewar.
Terry: please fix your website because it sucks and I have a hard time drooling over the rifles when most of the pages don't come up.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Right along this same line is Springfield scopes. I got one that is really good a 6x42 and one that isn't a 4.5-14x56. The bigger one all of a sudden decided not to focus. I bought both of these before I was aware Springfield Armory contracted them out to the cheapest bidder. Of course when I bought them Leupold was still quite the name for quality scopes. I have a 6.5-20x50 that I shoot a lot of long range with. 1800+ rounds out from under it. It's not my best scope but it is reliable and repeatable.
Right along this same line is Springfield scopes. I got one that is really good a 6x42 and one that isn't a 4.5-14x56. The bigger one all of a sudden decided not to focus. I bought both of these before I was aware Springfield Armory contracted them out to the cheapest bidder. Of course when I bought them Leupold was still quite the name for quality scopes. I have a 6.5-20x50 that I shoot a lot of long range with. 1800+ rounds out from under it. It's not my best scope but it is reliable and repeatable.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
I have had a few conversations with a Leupold rep after this thread popped up. This is what I have found out.
All of the MK4 line is made in Beaverton Oregon. The glass is out sourced because there is not an American manufacture that can supply the quantity required for production.
.1 milrad adjustments are one the way for the MK4 line. They should be out in a few months in 4.5x14, 6.5x20 and 8.5x25, this includes the FFP.
There is alot of new stuff comming soon that is based off customer feedback. Sorry can't elaborate anymore.
Ken
I have had a few conversations with a Leupold rep after this thread popped up. This is what I have found out.
All of the MK4 line is made in Beaverton Oregon. The glass is out sourced because there is not an American manufacture that can supply the quantity required for production.
.1 milrad adjustments are one the way for the MK4 line. They should be out in a few months in 4.5x14, 6.5x20 and 8.5x25, this includes the FFP.
There is alot of new stuff comming soon that is based off customer feedback. Sorry can't elaborate anymore.
Ken
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Ken, if what you said is true the why can't you find a "Made in USA" stamp ANYWHERE on a current MK4 ?
Ken, if what you said is true the why can't you find a "Made in USA" stamp ANYWHERE on a current MK4 ?
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Hi Ken. I hope you guys are doing good.
If you have any kind of communication going with Leupold, would you please ask them exactly what Will asked in his post. I would like to know what their response is.
Thanks and have a good week.
Terry
Hi Ken. I hope you guys are doing good.
If you have any kind of communication going with Leupold, would you please ask them exactly what Will asked in his post. I would like to know what their response is.
Thanks and have a good week.
Terry
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Ken,
Could ask someone there if they could join and contribute? I had real good CS from them, but I was very upset that I had to send a NEW scope back because it did not return to zero after dialing in distance. Not to mention the frustration I experienced while trying to learn at the Rifles Only SNipers Hide basic class.
Jack
Ken,
Could ask someone there if they could join and contribute? I had real good CS from them, but I was very upset that I had to send a NEW scope back because it did not return to zero after dialing in distance. Not to mention the frustration I experienced while trying to learn at the Rifles Only SNipers Hide basic class.
Jack
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Will,
I'll ask.
Terry,
We are doing OK. Tired of rain and flash floods.
Jack,
A few years ago a Leupold rep was on the boards and it turned into a flame war, from both sides (he is no longer with Leupold, not from anything that happened here). Got pretty ugly so the current rep is alittle gun shy about trying again. I can't say that I blame him. We all know that a majority of the threads spiral down hill. I only jumped on this one because it remained a civil exchange of opinions and ideas.
Will,
I'll ask.
Terry,
We are doing OK. Tired of rain and flash floods.
Jack,
A few years ago a Leupold rep was on the boards and it turned into a flame war, from both sides (he is no longer with Leupold, not from anything that happened here). Got pretty ugly so the current rep is alittle gun shy about trying again. I can't say that I blame him. We all know that a majority of the threads spiral down hill. I only jumped on this one because it remained a civil exchange of opinions and ideas.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Ken,
Understood. It is a shame that things go down rapodly, when discussion should fix most topics...
Thanks,
Jack
Ken,
Understood. It is a shame that things go down rapodly, when discussion should fix most topics...
Thanks,
Jack
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ken Darnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Jack,
A few years ago a Leupold rep was on the boards and it turned into a flame war, from both sides (he is no longer with Leupold, not from anything that happened here). Got pretty ugly so the current rep is alittle gun shy about trying again. I can't say that I blame him. We all know that a majority of the threads spiral down hill. I only jumped on this one because it remained a civil exchange of opinions and ideas. </div></div>
Hate to say it Ken, as gun shy as the rep might be, it may have something to do with them screwing over this place as many times as they have.
JJ worked really hard to restart the relations with shooters on here, but before him and after him they have a less than stellar track record. And you know me well enough to know if a guy from Leupold wanted a smooth transition to work with the site and the community on here, it could be done with very little fuss. Much in the same way Terry is respected, and this thread remained civil, but just like Mr Butterpants said, if it came from somewhere else it would not have gone this way.
Problem is, they fall back on excuses and do very little "trying". But that is just my personal opinion...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ken Darnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Jack,
A few years ago a Leupold rep was on the boards and it turned into a flame war, from both sides (he is no longer with Leupold, not from anything that happened here). Got pretty ugly so the current rep is alittle gun shy about trying again. I can't say that I blame him. We all know that a majority of the threads spiral down hill. I only jumped on this one because it remained a civil exchange of opinions and ideas. </div></div>
Hate to say it Ken, as gun shy as the rep might be, it may have something to do with them screwing over this place as many times as they have.
JJ worked really hard to restart the relations with shooters on here, but before him and after him they have a less than stellar track record. And you know me well enough to know if a guy from Leupold wanted a smooth transition to work with the site and the community on here, it could be done with very little fuss. Much in the same way Terry is respected, and this thread remained civil, but just like Mr Butterpants said, if it came from somewhere else it would not have gone this way.
Problem is, they fall back on excuses and do very little "trying". But that is just my personal opinion...
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
I'm a little late to this party, and I only read the first page of comments, but I'm not sure I am as upset about this as others seem to be. Leupold still makes good scopes, and I don't think the repeated comparisons in this thread to scopes costing 2-3x as much are fair. I would not buy a Mk4 expecting it to be a USO. And globalization, unfortunate though it may be, does not automatically indicate a loss of quality. China is the world's largest buyer of precision machine tools. There are probably more high-end CNC centers in China than in Germany. If you tell a chinese manufacturing company that you will not pay for parts outside X tolerance, they will deliver X tolerance. The quality of Leupold scopes does not automatically drop just because they are partially made elsewhere, it only drops if Leupold TELLS the chinese factory to make crappier parts.
"Made in China" meant "crappy" in the 1970s. That is no longer the automatic case.
I'm a little late to this party, and I only read the first page of comments, but I'm not sure I am as upset about this as others seem to be. Leupold still makes good scopes, and I don't think the repeated comparisons in this thread to scopes costing 2-3x as much are fair. I would not buy a Mk4 expecting it to be a USO. And globalization, unfortunate though it may be, does not automatically indicate a loss of quality. China is the world's largest buyer of precision machine tools. There are probably more high-end CNC centers in China than in Germany. If you tell a chinese manufacturing company that you will not pay for parts outside X tolerance, they will deliver X tolerance. The quality of Leupold scopes does not automatically drop just because they are partially made elsewhere, it only drops if Leupold TELLS the chinese factory to make crappier parts.
"Made in China" meant "crappy" in the 1970s. That is no longer the automatic case.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
This thread got me thinking as I know I had seen a "Made in USA" somewhere when I opened a new Mk4 2.5-8x36 MR/T a few weeks ago. The box label has a "081118 7:26AM" under the serial number which I presumed is a date code towards the end of last year.
Looking back through the packaging tonight, I found the "MADE IN U.S.A." on the back of the Riflescope Owner's Handbook, same as in this image. The copyright inside is dated 2006.
I know they've updated many manuals on the Leupold site recently, so looking tonight I see a new '09 version of the Riflescope Owner's Handbook sans any reference to USA on the rear cover. The copyright inside is dated 2008.
Both full manuals can still be downloaded here:
http://www2.leupold.com/resources/downloads/Riflescope_Owners_Handbook_4-4-07.pdf
http://www2.leupold.com/resources/downloads/2009_Riflescope_Owners_Handbook.pdf
This thread got me thinking as I know I had seen a "Made in USA" somewhere when I opened a new Mk4 2.5-8x36 MR/T a few weeks ago. The box label has a "081118 7:26AM" under the serial number which I presumed is a date code towards the end of last year.
Looking back through the packaging tonight, I found the "MADE IN U.S.A." on the back of the Riflescope Owner's Handbook, same as in this image. The copyright inside is dated 2006.
I know they've updated many manuals on the Leupold site recently, so looking tonight I see a new '09 version of the Riflescope Owner's Handbook sans any reference to USA on the rear cover. The copyright inside is dated 2008.
Both full manuals can still be downloaded here:
http://www2.leupold.com/resources/downloads/Riflescope_Owners_Handbook_4-4-07.pdf
http://www2.leupold.com/resources/downloads/2009_Riflescope_Owners_Handbook.pdf
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
LL,
I'm just passing on information that was obtained first hand. I would love to see a Leupold rep on here to answer questions and such. I like JJ and wish he was still around. No clue on the rest.
I get the 'trying' thing. I have noticed that they do not get in a big hurry to change, then again, I have no idea what it takes to engineer a scope or go from prototype to production. I'm just a dumb old street cop trying to get to 20 in one piece.
I forwarded the rep a link to this thread and I guess we will see if he decideds to comment.
Ken
LL,
I'm just passing on information that was obtained first hand. I would love to see a Leupold rep on here to answer questions and such. I like JJ and wish he was still around. No clue on the rest.
I get the 'trying' thing. I have noticed that they do not get in a big hurry to change, then again, I have no idea what it takes to engineer a scope or go from prototype to production. I'm just a dumb old street cop trying to get to 20 in one piece.
I forwarded the rep a link to this thread and I guess we will see if he decideds to comment.
Ken
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Will and Terry,
The made in the U.S.A. was apparently discontinued because of a class action lawsuit in California against the Leatherman Tool Group Inc.
In a nutshell, Leatherman was sued for false advertising under two California laws. Basically the law would not allow for the 'Made in the U.S.A' lable if components of the product were manufactured off shore. Leatherman uses some components that are out sourced. In the initial ruling, Leatherman was hit with a 13 millon dollar judgement. That judgement was later reversed.
Here is a link to the case.
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/states/Cal.Ct.App/B176953.PDF
Clear as mud?
Ken
Will and Terry,
The made in the U.S.A. was apparently discontinued because of a class action lawsuit in California against the Leatherman Tool Group Inc.
In a nutshell, Leatherman was sued for false advertising under two California laws. Basically the law would not allow for the 'Made in the U.S.A' lable if components of the product were manufactured off shore. Leatherman uses some components that are out sourced. In the initial ruling, Leatherman was hit with a 13 millon dollar judgement. That judgement was later reversed.
Here is a link to the case.
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/states/Cal.Ct.App/B176953.PDF
Clear as mud?
Ken
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a little late to this party, and I only read the first page of comments, but I'm not sure I am as upset about this as others seem to be. Leupold still makes good scopes, and I don't think the repeated comparisons in this thread to scopes costing 2-3x as much are fair. I would not buy a Mk4 expecting it to be a USO. And globalization, unfortunate though it may be, does not automatically indicate a loss of quality. China is the world's largest buyer of precision machine tools. There are probably more high-end CNC centers in China than in Germany. If you tell a chinese manufacturing company that you will not pay for parts outside X tolerance, they will deliver X tolerance. The quality of Leupold scopes does not automatically drop just because they are partially made elsewhere, it only drops if Leupold TELLS the chinese factory to make crappier parts.
"Made in China" meant "crappy" in the 1970s. That is no longer the automatic case. </div></div>
Just because they buy the tools does not mean they know how to use them to tolerance. I have yet to find Chinese made goods in any industry that indicate they understand quality control.
My sister-in-law is in China right now for an undetermined amount of time, she works for a company on a product half of the people reading this (or more) probably own/use. It may not be public (and the reason I'm not naming the company and product) but for the 3 years she has worked that job they have had terrible, TERRIBLE quality control problems with their Chinese suppliers. The only reason their products do not YET have the reputation to reflect it is that she and others are constantly rejecting shipments not meeting specs and flying over there to try and fix things (her third trip this year).
A good friend of mine did 3, 6-month stints in China for Motorola and reported similar frustrations.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a little late to this party, and I only read the first page of comments, but I'm not sure I am as upset about this as others seem to be. Leupold still makes good scopes, and I don't think the repeated comparisons in this thread to scopes costing 2-3x as much are fair. I would not buy a Mk4 expecting it to be a USO. And globalization, unfortunate though it may be, does not automatically indicate a loss of quality. China is the world's largest buyer of precision machine tools. There are probably more high-end CNC centers in China than in Germany. If you tell a chinese manufacturing company that you will not pay for parts outside X tolerance, they will deliver X tolerance. The quality of Leupold scopes does not automatically drop just because they are partially made elsewhere, it only drops if Leupold TELLS the chinese factory to make crappier parts.
"Made in China" meant "crappy" in the 1970s. That is no longer the automatic case. </div></div>
Just because they buy the tools does not mean they know how to use them to tolerance. I have yet to find Chinese made goods in any industry that indicate they understand quality control.
My sister-in-law is in China right now for an undetermined amount of time, she works for a company on a product half of the people reading this (or more) probably own/use. It may not be public (and the reason I'm not naming the company and product) but for the 3 years she has worked that job they have had terrible, TERRIBLE quality control problems with their Chinese suppliers. The only reason their products do not YET have the reputation to reflect it is that she and others are constantly rejecting shipments not meeting specs and flying over there to try and fix things (her third trip this year).
A good friend of mine did 3, 6-month stints in China for Motorola and reported similar frustrations.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
When the Chinese government proves time and time again that they don't give a damn about their own babies, remember the rampant Melamine poisoning, and lead paint on toys, what makes anyone think they're going to turn out a good product for the world market without having someone other than a Chinese quality control inspector making sure they're making what they're supposed to be making.
I know of several instances similar to what ATH is talking about. The "it's good enough" moto is definitely how they operate.
When the Chinese government proves time and time again that they don't give a damn about their own babies, remember the rampant Melamine poisoning, and lead paint on toys, what makes anyone think they're going to turn out a good product for the world market without having someone other than a Chinese quality control inspector making sure they're making what they're supposed to be making.
I know of several instances similar to what ATH is talking about. The "it's good enough" moto is definitely how they operate.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Ken,
Thanks for the information and relaying this to your Leupold Rep. I understand that he may be hesitant to post into this particular thread although I hope it wouldn't be because of me. I have no problems with Leupold employees (i.e. that are not management). They are trying to work and be the best at whatever they do.
I do not want any Leupold Rep. coming on this site and getting in trouble with their boss or having to try to personally deal with anyone that cannot stay in check during a conversation. I'm guessing that it would be difficult for him to come here and answer every question thrown at him. First of all, I'm sure that they may have a limited knowledge of exactly how every product goes together and secondly, I'm sure there are just some things that they may have to get approval to address on a question by question basis with their corporate or division superiors.
I would have no problem discussing some of this with any of their employees that are trully interested. I would love nothing more than for your rep to retire from Leupold years from now knowing that his company got a few strategic ideals back on track and earned their way back into the respected industry position that they enjoyed 30 years ago.
Allenst,
Is that handbook not issued with a broad spectrum of their scopes? All Leupolds I have received lately have included that handbook (Part Number 53934) and it was my understanding that the Made in U.S.A. printed on the back cover referred to that booklet or P/N., not the scope it was packed with.
Conquerer,
Just as important as labor skill and machine accuracy is the quality of the material supply going into that production. Everything from plastics to brass to aluminum and rubber are very subject to performance issues. Plastics can crack or when subjected to U.V., fail unless exactly spec'd to the task. All of the other materials can have failures and flaws due to poor quality that existed before they even go into the machines. Just ask any production shop that runs precision parts about the quality of imported steels and metals. Cold formed bulk steels and metals imported into the U.S. are flooding the industry.
These cheap steels are the bread and butter of the same Steel Plants here that rely on that volume to keep their doors open and people on their production lines. The"super steels" and high grade metals produced by our Steel Plants account for only a portion of their production but those materials are extremely important to the final product quality of any precision parts produced here. It does make a difference. Boots Obermeyer can curl your toes with some stories about steel flaws on imported materials and domestic steel factories trying to compete with steels being dumped on our economy at pennys a ton.
Ken,
Thanks for the information and relaying this to your Leupold Rep. I understand that he may be hesitant to post into this particular thread although I hope it wouldn't be because of me. I have no problems with Leupold employees (i.e. that are not management). They are trying to work and be the best at whatever they do.
I do not want any Leupold Rep. coming on this site and getting in trouble with their boss or having to try to personally deal with anyone that cannot stay in check during a conversation. I'm guessing that it would be difficult for him to come here and answer every question thrown at him. First of all, I'm sure that they may have a limited knowledge of exactly how every product goes together and secondly, I'm sure there are just some things that they may have to get approval to address on a question by question basis with their corporate or division superiors.
I would have no problem discussing some of this with any of their employees that are trully interested. I would love nothing more than for your rep to retire from Leupold years from now knowing that his company got a few strategic ideals back on track and earned their way back into the respected industry position that they enjoyed 30 years ago.
Allenst,
Is that handbook not issued with a broad spectrum of their scopes? All Leupolds I have received lately have included that handbook (Part Number 53934) and it was my understanding that the Made in U.S.A. printed on the back cover referred to that booklet or P/N., not the scope it was packed with.
Conquerer,
Just as important as labor skill and machine accuracy is the quality of the material supply going into that production. Everything from plastics to brass to aluminum and rubber are very subject to performance issues. Plastics can crack or when subjected to U.V., fail unless exactly spec'd to the task. All of the other materials can have failures and flaws due to poor quality that existed before they even go into the machines. Just ask any production shop that runs precision parts about the quality of imported steels and metals. Cold formed bulk steels and metals imported into the U.S. are flooding the industry.
These cheap steels are the bread and butter of the same Steel Plants here that rely on that volume to keep their doors open and people on their production lines. The"super steels" and high grade metals produced by our Steel Plants account for only a portion of their production but those materials are extremely important to the final product quality of any precision parts produced here. It does make a difference. Boots Obermeyer can curl your toes with some stories about steel flaws on imported materials and domestic steel factories trying to compete with steels being dumped on our economy at pennys a ton.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Terry,
Very good points.
As a manufacturer is is very easy to sell out and go for substandard components or manufacturing itself with the "Made in China" stamp all over it.
Playing the shell game of "X amount of the product is manufactured or assembled here in the USA so we will call this one X" is going on quite a lot nowadays.
Sometimes you don't get what you paid for.
I just find it very ironic that the very next post under your initial post is an advertisement for Leupold spotting scopes.
Terry,
Very good points.
As a manufacturer is is very easy to sell out and go for substandard components or manufacturing itself with the "Made in China" stamp all over it.
Playing the shell game of "X amount of the product is manufactured or assembled here in the USA so we will call this one X" is going on quite a lot nowadays.
Sometimes you don't get what you paid for.
I just find it very ironic that the very next post under your initial post is an advertisement for Leupold spotting scopes.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
I only read the first page so sorry if I'm repeating someone here.
I don't blame the manufacturers of Leopold. It is our own fault. Americans have wanted bargains for themselves for years and just expected some other sucker could/would be responsible for keeping American manufacturing alive.
We get what we deserve.
Just think how many products the Chinese will sell when they start throwing in a free kidney from a political or religious dissident.
I only read the first page so sorry if I'm repeating someone here.
I don't blame the manufacturers of Leopold. It is our own fault. Americans have wanted bargains for themselves for years and just expected some other sucker could/would be responsible for keeping American manufacturing alive.
We get what we deserve.
Just think how many products the Chinese will sell when they start throwing in a free kidney from a political or religious dissident.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it is all about the bottom dollar just about everywhere. There is a vicious cycle where more and more stock holders want to see a profit each year, employees want raises, executives have to be paid much more to keep them from floating their resume to other, better paying companies, and the price of things keep rising to meet all the demands (I left out a couple). Something had to give.
This argument is a continuation of one that I maintained with my father over about a decade. As a UAW man, he could work on Christmas and make something like $175 an hour for just being at work. (They played cards). At the same time, his GM stock was peaking at around $90 a share (Clinton era, look it up). During this time, one could look at the wealthiest entities on Earth and be amazed that the US was # 1 and GMC was something like #7, well above most countries in the world. With over 1,000 senior vice presidents making a 1/4 mil, and the union demanding more and more for its workers, the increase to pricing on cars alone was not enough to quench the thirsts of both the employees and stock holders. Something had to give.
Leupold is not alone. If you truly think it is important in regard to this item in your life, like I do, then you buy something from people you know and trust, even if it costs more.
But Terry's post was not just about where the stuff comes from.
It also discussed quality, and the company that ignores this key ingredient to their livelihood will soon suffer. His post may have generated a back-woods grassroots campaign that outgrows this one website. On Saturday night, I was at Gander Mountain buying 180lb test fishing line to defeat the squirrel gang that is trying to take over my birdfeeders. (Please don't tell me I should just kill them. I am trying to get a sufficiently large meat zoo thriving in my yard in case we have to go back to living on squirrel gravy). I stopped over by the optics case to look at the LRF's and I overheard an older man tell the guy that was with him that, "He don't buy no Leupold stuff no more." They never mentioned Terry by name, but the double negatives cancel each other out and make it a truth. </div></div>
Great post. Short term profit outlook has come at the expense of long-term sustainability.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it is all about the bottom dollar just about everywhere. There is a vicious cycle where more and more stock holders want to see a profit each year, employees want raises, executives have to be paid much more to keep them from floating their resume to other, better paying companies, and the price of things keep rising to meet all the demands (I left out a couple). Something had to give.
This argument is a continuation of one that I maintained with my father over about a decade. As a UAW man, he could work on Christmas and make something like $175 an hour for just being at work. (They played cards). At the same time, his GM stock was peaking at around $90 a share (Clinton era, look it up). During this time, one could look at the wealthiest entities on Earth and be amazed that the US was # 1 and GMC was something like #7, well above most countries in the world. With over 1,000 senior vice presidents making a 1/4 mil, and the union demanding more and more for its workers, the increase to pricing on cars alone was not enough to quench the thirsts of both the employees and stock holders. Something had to give.
Leupold is not alone. If you truly think it is important in regard to this item in your life, like I do, then you buy something from people you know and trust, even if it costs more.
But Terry's post was not just about where the stuff comes from.
It also discussed quality, and the company that ignores this key ingredient to their livelihood will soon suffer. His post may have generated a back-woods grassroots campaign that outgrows this one website. On Saturday night, I was at Gander Mountain buying 180lb test fishing line to defeat the squirrel gang that is trying to take over my birdfeeders. (Please don't tell me I should just kill them. I am trying to get a sufficiently large meat zoo thriving in my yard in case we have to go back to living on squirrel gravy). I stopped over by the optics case to look at the LRF's and I overheard an older man tell the guy that was with him that, "He don't buy no Leupold stuff no more." They never mentioned Terry by name, but the double negatives cancel each other out and make it a truth. </div></div>
Great post. Short term profit outlook has come at the expense of long-term sustainability.
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold
Don't forget that the first product made by a company, a plant is money.
In 2009, I don't know where we can find some deontology in a big company... profit or not profit...
Don't forget that the first product made by a company, a plant is money.
In 2009, I don't know where we can find some deontology in a big company... profit or not profit...
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