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I don’t care.@Qazwsx all good, and no need to apologize; sometimes it's hard to convey tone and context over text alone, so I don't take it personally. I apologize if my post seemed aggressive and defensive in response to yours. You brought up some very valid points, and I think that part of the strengths of discussing something like this on forums is that there are people who will challenge and question assumptions, which is a great thing.
On another note entirely, your above response speaks to the character of some of the people who post on SH, and exemplifies what we are all here for: engaged, constructive discussion about something that we are passionate about so that we can learn more, and sort through the mountains of bad information and dogma on the interwebs.
On another note entirely, your above response speaks to the character of some of the people who post on SH, and exemplifies what we are all here for: engaged, constructive discussion about something that we are passionate about so that we can learn more, and sort through the mountains of bad information and dogma on the interwebs.
@xxflyingturtlexx How would you compare the recoil impulse between the two? Did you notice the mid-length gas system of the triarc being smoother than the carbine length of the kac? Did the KAC’s gas system seem to tame it more compared to the mid-length triarc?
I am likewise making the same exact decision.
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I have the same exact questions
Triarc is good to go. Here's where it is for me. I have multiple ARs. A few custom builds SOLGW receivers and 13.7 barrel. My main squeeze rifles are my KAC 11.5 and 14.5. I just added a Triarc 12.5 to my list. It's ordered, after test running one, I wanted one. Here's my thoughts on why that over others.
1. They're using high quality parts. I do believe the receivers and rail are all Zev. Top notch.
2. The barrel and rifling is a cool concept, I'm into nerdy shit. And by design, the track barrel should make for an accurate and gas efficient system. This IS a step outside of the box that I'm willing to give a run.
3. They're the ONLY company with a mid length 12.5. This has me intrigued. But this should make for a soft shooting gun that handles supressed and unsepressed shooting great.
4. After speaking with them. They actually understand the AR platform. They're not just building a gun to millspec standards like BCM, and calling it a day. They do a ton of testing on tuning, velocity, etc, and they make that all available. I like that.
In the end, you're getting a high quality gun, built with high quality parts, built by people who actually.reslly understand the platform and how their being ran, and building that gun to fit the times. Are they better than SOLGW? Radian? Maybe not. But they are definitely doing some things right and Im willing to get one in and run it against my KAC guns, and find out.
1. They're using high quality parts. I do believe the receivers and rail are all Zev. Top notch.
2. The barrel and rifling is a cool concept, I'm into nerdy shit. And by design, the track barrel should make for an accurate and gas efficient system. This IS a step outside of the box that I'm willing to give a run.
3. They're the ONLY company with a mid length 12.5. This has me intrigued. But this should make for a soft shooting gun that handles supressed and unsepressed shooting great.
4. After speaking with them. They actually understand the AR platform. They're not just building a gun to millspec standards like BCM, and calling it a day. They do a ton of testing on tuning, velocity, etc, and they make that all available. I like that.
In the end, you're getting a high quality gun, built with high quality parts, built by people who actually.reslly understand the platform and how their being ran, and building that gun to fit the times. Are they better than SOLGW? Radian? Maybe not. But they are definitely doing some things right and Im willing to get one in and run it against my KAC guns, and find out.
I have a Noveske and a Rainier Arms Mid Length gas 12.5 barrels. You may want to do a bit more research on this.
I also has 2 carbine vas 12.5 guns. I prefer the Carbine gas. It is much more reliable over the Mid.
Didn't know Noveske did a mid 12.5. But every Noveske I've shot was wildly over gassed. And the rainer 12.5 days in big bold print to use an adjustable gas block as they use a huge port for reliability. Triarc seems to have it dialed. I will however say, I have not ran a Noveske 12.5. Just a 14.5 and my buddies 11.5. And didn't care for either of them. So I never really paid anymore attention to them.
I do not use any adjustable gas blocks on anything. I can say for sure that both my Noveske ans Rainier Arms MID gas barrela are have no gas issues. They are set up well and run ligjts out. They are also lasers, with the Noveske being a bit better.
I have 6 differant Noveske barrels and all of them are properly gassed.
Well that's good because adjustable gas blocks are silly. And maybe Noveske has gotten it together. That would be good because I thought John was a good dude. If that wasn't a $425 barrel I'd probably give it a go. Doesnt seem like they build a rifle with that barrel as an option which is weird. The other issue I always had with them is,.why would I pay MORE for a Noveske than you do for a KAC or LMT. So, after shooting with a few of my friends noveskes, I just stuck with KACs and hadnt paid much attention to them after. So, I will apologise on the mid length 12.5. But, I'm still going to give a triarc a go after running one for a day. Worth a shot.
I wasn't aware of that either. I've been through almost a of centurions offers. As far as I've seen they only offer a 12.5 in carbine length.
And I mean, I seen black river offered a 12.5 with a gas system between carbine and mid but, I don't trust BRT stuff in general.
Because they are much more accurate and neither LMT or KAC makes a great SS barrel. I have 2 LMTs and Have shot many KAC rifles... no comparison when it come to accuracy and longevity of that accuracy (in the SS barrels compared to any other SS barrel).
agreed, the Argument of "why pay more" sounds like the civilian version of the military saying "we wont let you buy 20" match grade barrels for the Mk12 because we already have 20" barrels in supply" nevermind that those existing barrels are nowhere near match grade.
@Trip148
i appreciate the info.
Triarc has been really good to me so far.
always quick to respond to emails (which is my first test for a manufacturer this expensive... do they put up with my endless questions LOL!)
and not only that after my email to them about the warranty i noticed they put a link on the website (or maybe it was always there and i didnt see it)
in addition the YT channel Chris runs has been putting out some VERY high quality and unique content which i appreciate.
overall i am hands down ordering from them because they make the rifle i want and seem to be running a really good operation thats passionate about the AR and put that passion into building HQ stuff. i also cannot find a single bad review of their products anywhere except for one guy complaining about the backorder time lol.
Re: Noveske: I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of some of their newer efforts, but historically, their barrels are something special for this sample size of one: I've had excellent results with their barrels on prior builds, and haven't had a single issue with their gas port size when shooting 5.56 or .223. To say that their stainless barrels are accurate doesn't quite do them justice.
I actually steered away from a Hodge barrel on a build due to the fact that I would likely shoot more unsuppressed, as the gas-port size on the newer Hodge barrels is tuned to run a carbine-length system with hot ammunition and suppressed. Am I mad at Jim Hodge for doing this? Not at all, it's just not built quite to my personal requirements, and I'm not going to go through the trouble of opening up a gas port on a rifle barrel that has been specifically designed to function as part of a different system that I don't know enough about (or have enough experience with) to begin to fiddle with. I'm also not going to buy a barrel just to have a cloverleaf and the brand name. I have a lot of respect for what he has done, and what he has built. If I choose to build a rifle that needs a barrel like his, then I will pick one up based on my requirements, not anyone else's.
I think that many people forget that everyone uses ARs for different purposes, and that different length gas systems all have their advantages and disadvantages. One person may be totally comfortable with a super-accurate AR that shoots one pet load perfectly with as little recoil as possible (and is tuned as such), while someone else might want their rifle to function with any caliber-correct ammunition that they choose to feed it, and are comfortable with a rifle that shoots MOA for 20k rounds. There is no one "right" answer.
Here's a chart of gas port sizes for a variety of barrels from different manufacturers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...NxDUlWNK9nEv-cZEQoLq2JXXrk/edit#gid=766121382
I didn't create the chart, nor did I verify measurements, but it appears to be a pretty solid resource.
Remember that cycling issues aren't just due to gas-system length or port size - the system has a multitude of variables including ammunition, buffer spring strength/type, BCG weight, and buffer type/weight that can be changed to perform adequately (that's the key word) and create different recoil impulses before opening up a gas port, changing gas-tube lengths by swapping barrels, or installing an adjustable gas block.
I really do hope that the Triarc guys products hold up to the test of time, as they have some cool stuff going on, and have what appears to be fantastic customer service. In my experience, customer service makes or breaks a business in the private sector.
I actually steered away from a Hodge barrel on a build due to the fact that I would likely shoot more unsuppressed, as the gas-port size on the newer Hodge barrels is tuned to run a carbine-length system with hot ammunition and suppressed. Am I mad at Jim Hodge for doing this? Not at all, it's just not built quite to my personal requirements, and I'm not going to go through the trouble of opening up a gas port on a rifle barrel that has been specifically designed to function as part of a different system that I don't know enough about (or have enough experience with) to begin to fiddle with. I'm also not going to buy a barrel just to have a cloverleaf and the brand name. I have a lot of respect for what he has done, and what he has built. If I choose to build a rifle that needs a barrel like his, then I will pick one up based on my requirements, not anyone else's.
I think that many people forget that everyone uses ARs for different purposes, and that different length gas systems all have their advantages and disadvantages. One person may be totally comfortable with a super-accurate AR that shoots one pet load perfectly with as little recoil as possible (and is tuned as such), while someone else might want their rifle to function with any caliber-correct ammunition that they choose to feed it, and are comfortable with a rifle that shoots MOA for 20k rounds. There is no one "right" answer.
Here's a chart of gas port sizes for a variety of barrels from different manufacturers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...NxDUlWNK9nEv-cZEQoLq2JXXrk/edit#gid=766121382
I didn't create the chart, nor did I verify measurements, but it appears to be a pretty solid resource.
Remember that cycling issues aren't just due to gas-system length or port size - the system has a multitude of variables including ammunition, buffer spring strength/type, BCG weight, and buffer type/weight that can be changed to perform adequately (that's the key word) and create different recoil impulses before opening up a gas port, changing gas-tube lengths by swapping barrels, or installing an adjustable gas block.
I really do hope that the Triarc guys products hold up to the test of time, as they have some cool stuff going on, and have what appears to be fantastic customer service. In my experience, customer service makes or breaks a business in the private sector.
SS barrels aid in accuracy, not longevity. Both my KACs are sub moa guns with black hills 77 grain. And about 2.25 moa average off cheap ass reloaded .223. I can't ask for more than that on accuracy. But, KAC warranties their barrels for 20k rounds.
Missing my point. The Noveske SS barrels are very accurate and they have the best longevity of SS barrels. That is the key factor in them being a great barrel for heavy accurate shooting.
BOLD- For function or for accuracy? If accuracy, what is their parameters? I don't know as I don't like or deal with KAC.
I am glad you like it your KAC. Except, that they do not make a 12.5 and I believe that is the topic of conversation.
They did prior to the great buy-up prior to the election. Nothing on there now, but not much barrels in-stock, regardless. It was directly stated that it was a longer mid-length cut-down when it was previously offered on their site. I’m sure one could call and order it, judging by my dealings with them over the years.
I know they aren’t as mainstream, but I can tell you I’ve had zero issue with their HD gas port inserts on 5 different Noveske CHF barrels.
I have yet to try one of their barrels. I wouldn’t hesitate to.
From everything i have heard Triarc makes the best 12.5 middy around because of their track 2.0 rifling which creates a tighter seal between the bullet and the barrel making for a more efficient system and allowing them to play around with the gas port sizes. not only that but as others have said they just choose high quality components and put in the extra effort to maintain a high level of QC and keep tolerance stacking to a minimum.
Basically its a basic B* AR with a pretty paint job, an awesome barrel/handgaurd and a hobbyists level of attention to detail and QC.
which is exactly what i was looking for.
Basically its a basic B* AR with a pretty paint job, an awesome barrel/handgaurd and a hobbyists level of attention to detail and QC.
which is exactly what i was looking for.
I just had Wes Grant from MSTN build me a Fully Custom built AR-15 Pistol, this was my Favorite Gun until I showed it to my Wife then it disappeared just like that lol. It fits my Wife Perfectly and it is the MOST SOLID Gun I own. I was planning on him Building me another but he never got back to me so I bought a Daniel Defense V7 SLW and put an Aimpoint Comp5 on it. I have an an Aimpoint T2 on Top of the MSTN. This is One Bad Gun
I might have to give MSTN a try. They have a very good reputation and are always posting solid info on the hide.
How much did that gun cost?
I would prefer to keep the cost of the gun itself under 2500
I have never seen a Rifle or AR-15 pistol that was more Solid and just Perfection, don't worry about the Price. Wes is the easiest, kindest, and knows how to Build a Super Tough, Reliable, Accurate and just Beautiful Rifle or AR-15 pistol. Knowing what I know now, he would have built my entire collection from the start. Check out all his previous builds on MSTN website.
I’m nobody, but I think very highly of Wes.
Some recent discussion in this thread regarding Noveske stainless barrels.
I am on the hunt for one of their 12.5" stainless "crusader" barrels. I know they use to be a thing - is Noveske even producing them anymore? I can't find any references to contemporary production and they are out of stock everywhere. ...of course, everything is out of stock everywhere so that doesn't tell me much.
So 12.5" stainless Noveske Crusader barrels - still "getable" or not?
I am on the hunt for one of their 12.5" stainless "crusader" barrels. I know they use to be a thing - is Noveske even producing them anymore? I can't find any references to contemporary production and they are out of stock everywhere. ...of course, everything is out of stock everywhere so that doesn't tell me much.
So 12.5" stainless Noveske Crusader barrels - still "getable" or not?
They still make them. Just like everything else they are difficult to find.
That's great news Doc - glad to hear it. I'll keep my eyes peeled.
Biggest decisions you have to make for a 12.5” Mini DM Carbine are:
1. Barrel/gas system length/port diameter (This will be determined by whether or not you’re accounting for extreme cold conditions, suppressed on and off use, what weight you want, accuracy expectations, and high volume schedule.)
2. Receiver set. A Lefty might have some different requirements, although the bolt catch is actually better situated for lefties than RH shooters.
3. Balancing out the weight with the optics and accessories you plan to mount.
I personally really like the 11.5-12.5” guns for 5.56 NATO.
1. Barrel/gas system length/port diameter (This will be determined by whether or not you’re accounting for extreme cold conditions, suppressed on and off use, what weight you want, accuracy expectations, and high volume schedule.)
2. Receiver set. A Lefty might have some different requirements, although the bolt catch is actually better situated for lefties than RH shooters.
3. Balancing out the weight with the optics and accessories you plan to mount.
I personally really like the 11.5-12.5” guns for 5.56 NATO.
fwiw, my daniel defense CHF 12.5 barrel is sub moa with mk262. Surprisingly its a solid 600yd gun, not a whole lot of ke out there but I wouldn't want to be shot by it. 2573 FPS w/ issue mk262 . Barrel manufacturers just seem to really have it together for the most part nowadays.
A DD 12.5 would have been a strong contender but they don't make it in a complete rifle
If you shoot the 77gr TMK from a 12.5” at 2547fps, it matches a 77gr SMK/Mk.262 from an 18” SPR at 600yds for speed/energy.
.420 G1 BC vs .362 G1
I was just shooting my 16” MLGS SOPMOD Block II Recce at 400yds this morning with 69gr SMK (.305 BC) in 1/4 value 3mph wind on steel, which is boring really. The 16”/69gr SMK combo is noticeably inferior to a 12.5” with 77gr TMK.
I decided a while ago that I won’t be buying anything longer than 12.5” for 5.56, since not even a 20” 5.56 compares well with my 10.5” and 12” Grendels, but I still keep a large selection of 5.56 blasters.
.420 G1 BC vs .362 G1
I was just shooting my 16” MLGS SOPMOD Block II Recce at 400yds this morning with 69gr SMK (.305 BC) in 1/4 value 3mph wind on steel, which is boring really. The 16”/69gr SMK combo is noticeably inferior to a 12.5” with 77gr TMK.
I decided a while ago that I won’t be buying anything longer than 12.5” for 5.56, since not even a 20” 5.56 compares well with my 10.5” and 12” Grendels, but I still keep a large selection of 5.56 blasters.
Have a 12.5" Triarc and 12.5" Criterion Hybrid. Both different gas lengths of course. Did extensive testing with the Criterion.
Tried four to five match loads from Hornady and Federal in various weights and got about 1-1.5 MOA with a few of the boxes. This was with a 1-8 NX8.
One load I wanted to work good, but did not was Barnes 5.56 62gr TSX BT. It shot 5 MOA. Repeatedly. Didn't matter if the barrel was scrubbed clean, or was fouled.
So, I pulled it after waiting 11 weeks for my Triarc barrel. It probably only had 1,500 through it when I did. So, hardly shot when it comes to a Chrome Lined. (Scrubbed clean and put away as a spare.) That same Barnes load shot about 1.25 MOA with a 4x magnified red dot. Haven't really tried anything else through it yet. Have no match loads to try. Have a few boxes of Hornady 73gr Critical Defense on the way.
Sandman S, H2 Buffer, Hot White Sprinco spring.
Tried four to five match loads from Hornady and Federal in various weights and got about 1-1.5 MOA with a few of the boxes. This was with a 1-8 NX8.
One load I wanted to work good, but did not was Barnes 5.56 62gr TSX BT. It shot 5 MOA. Repeatedly. Didn't matter if the barrel was scrubbed clean, or was fouled.
So, I pulled it after waiting 11 weeks for my Triarc barrel. It probably only had 1,500 through it when I did. So, hardly shot when it comes to a Chrome Lined. (Scrubbed clean and put away as a spare.) That same Barnes load shot about 1.25 MOA with a 4x magnified red dot. Haven't really tried anything else through it yet. Have no match loads to try. Have a few boxes of Hornady 73gr Critical Defense on the way.
Sandman S, H2 Buffer, Hot White Sprinco spring.
That's why the only thing dd on that gun is the barrel
Have you done any testing on SD? all the stuff I have found online in regards to testing which admittedly is not a lot shows the 12.5 to have a weird increase in SD not seen with other barrel lengths.
Hello I paid $3100 fro mine but it was worth every penny, I have rifles from JP Enterprise, Nemo Arms, Daniel Defense and V7 Weapons and the MSTN AR-15 Pistol is without a doubt my favorite. I just wish I would have known about Wes before I bought my other rifles. Don't get me wrong all of my Rifles are top notch and I wouldn't sell any of them but my MSTN is just a little above the Rest.
I have not done any focused testing on SD, but the lighter weight carbines/SBRs/pistols will be more prone to wider SDs based on shooter body mass and inconsistent position/hold/fundamentals. My ES with the 12” Grendel with factory 120gr American Eagle was 51fps, but I didn’t notice when shooting 24”x36” buffalo steel at 800yds 9/10 hits with it (6600ft ASL, thin air).
Back to the Triarc 12.5”, I think their use of coatings on the barrel extension is interesting since it should reduce torsional load on the lugs if they’re able to reduce the friction along with the MLGS, which is more of a problem with shorter gas systems.
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