Tried annealing today for the first time...

[bm11]

On some junk cases. A few observations, some of which raise questions-

I was using the inner blue flame, with the flame adjusted to just under 1", and it took more time than I read it should to get any color change in the case. Most online say 6 seconds or so, I found it took closer to 9-10 seconds to get a color change in polished brass (still looks shiny, and doesn't seem to be too soft.)

Also- I was using the flame focused on the shoulder/body junction as outlined in a thread on here. However, most other guides recommend the flame focused on the case neck itself, which lead me to a little confusion about the process.

I wasn't using Templaque, only a metronome to time the operation, but I actually got the best and most consistent results in looks by watching the color change in the brass and not focusing on the time.

Advice?

Thanks,

-Bob

 

[BBeyer]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

More cases are screwed up than improved by people trying to anneal without real knowledge of how to do it, I"m one of them. The only way I ever got it right was with a Ken Light machine, and that is great.
Where in Maine are you located?

 

[cstmwrks]

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[Goldbeachman]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

How were you doing it? By hand (for instance, with a cordless screw driver), or, using a dedicated annealing machine?

 

[bm11]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

To answer the questions-

I am in Waterville Maine. I was using a Bernz-O-Matic propane torch with a drill and a half inch deep socket.

The purpose of the experiment was to determine if I needed to buy a machine or if I could do it manually. I only load for .308 and only would need to anneal cases once or twice a month if I was doing them after 3-5 firings.

I feel that I was able to get a consistent looking result when going by eye, towards the end of my practice session. I deliberately over annealed some cases and I am confident based on those that I am not over annealing the ones that I heated for 10 seconds.

I think the next step will be to try it on some cases that need it, and shoot them. The current batch of Lapua brass I am using has 8x firings on it, so if it were trashed it wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

Different folks use different methods...I have found that in a dim room if you focus your eyes and attention on the flame as it passes over the neck/shoulder area, the color of the flame itself will suddenly change as you get to the critical heat...dump the case then and all is good. Works for me. JMHO

 

[Neil Allen]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

bm11

Get yourself some Templaq. I'm using 750 range to get a read on length of time it takes for 7BR and .264 WM, I initially paint twenty cases to establish time under flame. Significant time difference to melt the Templaq though. BR case's take a count of 4, 264's count of 6, into the cool down bath they go!
Rotational speed of your arbor is something else to take in to consideration. Mine runs @ ~50 RPM. Home built rig.
I agree with the Former Navel on the flame color change. It seems as the templaq is just about to completley liquify, a slight orange feather of color appears in the blue of the flame running off the neck. Im doing this in a fairly dimly lit room also.

Also, I am not concerned about color change in the case after. I did, as you are now, experiment, with junk cases. I found that when trying for the "Factory" look it got the cases WAY to hot! If you can see any color in the case, during the process, in a dimly lit room, you've gone to far. the brass will lose its spring back

The torch head I have splits the blue into three distinct fingers of flame. I run one straight on the neck the others curl around the shoulder area.

After shaking the water out of the cases I run 'em through a quick media tumble to dry them. Got some very fine corn cob to do that, picked it up at a local media blasting company that does soda, sandblasting.

My .02

Neil

 

[trailrider121]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On some junk cases. A few observations, some of which raise questions-

I was using the inner blue flame, with the flame adjusted to just under 1", and it took more time than I read it should to get any color change in the case. Most online say 6 seconds or so, I found it took closer to 9-10 seconds to get a color change in polished brass (still looks shiny, and doesn't seem to be too soft.)

Also- I was using the flame focused on the shoulder/body junction as outlined in a thread on here. However, most other guides recommend the flame focused on the case neck itself, which lead me to a little confusion about the process.

I wasn't using Templaque, only a metronome to time the operation, but I actually got the best and most consistent results in looks by watching the color change in the brass and not focusing on the time.

Advice?

Thanks,

-Bob </div></div>
I've just started annealing brass cases myself. My time was in the 9 second range as well. not sure how free your hands are but I used this:

Kept me free to focus on neck color and time. I had not started neck turning so some cases were thicker and some thinner. I suspect that accounted for the odd few that needed another second to reach the same maroon color level. </div></div>


Very nice machine there.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

Hi Bob: I've had success annealing running the inner blue flame about 3/8 " from the shoulder/neck junction (not the shoulder/body junction) for 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 seconds using a Benchmark Vortex machine with two torches.

Best to wait until after dark to conduct your set up and whilst in the barely lit room, apply heat on the turning case only until the neck just perceptibly begins its color change to orange.

I'm like you and don't have any Tempilaq, use the dark room method. You should be able to tell quite a bit from the feel of seating the bullet in an non-annealed case example compared to one you have properly annealed. Relying on the outside case discoloration is iffy and I get differing end results depending on the brass manufacturer and method I cleaned the brass. I don't bother with a water bath and do neck size after annealing.

Good luck!

 

[bm11]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

Thanks Kim!

OK, so last night I took some 8x Lapua out of retirement. I focused the flame on the neck/shoulder junction, and put the case so the inner blue pencil just touched it. I used a metronome app and timed each case for 7 seconds. I didn't notice much color change.

After this, I FL sized the cases and trimmed them. After using lighter fluid to clean off the lube, I could actually see a change in color extending from the neck down over the shoulder and just onto the body. It still was shiny and didn't show any signs of over annealing. So I finished loading them.

Overall, the seating did feel very consistent, with only a few requiring lighter pressure than the others. Unfortunately I didn't think to separate those out.

Going to the range today to shoot some of these, vs some UN annealed lapua with 6x firings.

Update to follow.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

I wouldn't be too concerned if the 8x fired brass that was annealed for the first time isn't that much different than the 6x given how long it went without annealing. I'm annealing every other firing and primarily notice the feel in seating pressure is uniform and smooth. Good luck!

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

If you aren't in a near pitch black room you will detect the color change late. Block
even under the doorway with a towel. You time sounds about right for one torch.
Put your calipers around an annealed case neck back in the jaws, with your fingers
opposite the neck squeeze the jaws two thousands, the neck should spring back
all the way to the previous size. If it is hard to squeeze check it against some
un-annealed cases it may not be annealed enough.
A last note, your ambient room temps are important to the time factor. I find
at 52f in my basement I run up to 12 seconds. At 70f it's about 9.

 

[bm11]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

Well, the results seem good. The 8x fired brass that I annealed shot better than the 6x brass, the 6x had a few random fliers that I know weren't me, and the 8x did not.

Even more notable, the annealed brass showed far less pressure than the not annealed brass. The bolt lift was super easy, like a factory load, and the primers were nice and round.

Both batches of brass were shooting the same load- 46.5 grains of Varget, 155 Scenar .010 off, Lapua case, CCI BR2 primer.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

Nice. May I suggest looking at the Bench<span style="text-decoration: line-through">mark</span>Source Vortex or perhaps the new giraud annealer? I have the former but the latter looks quite nice and I like the auto brass feeding aspect.

I think my idea of the ideal handloading setup would be a giraud annealer next to a giraud trimmer next to a prometheus charger. Perhaps someday.

Good luck!

 

[bm11]

Re: Tried annealing today for the first time...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KIMO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice. May I suggest looking at the Benchmark Vortex or perhaps the new giraud annealer? I have the former but the latter looks quite nice and I like the auto brass feeding aspect.

I think my idea of the ideal handloading setup would be a giraud annealer next to a giraud trimmer next to a prometheus charger. Perhaps someday.

Good luck! </div></div>Thinking strongly about the Giraud. The only risk I see is that if I make the call about the annealer, most likely I'll end up with a trimmer as well. As for the Prometheus, well, if it were a Gen 2 I don't think I could say no if I came across one.