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Gunsmithing Trued Rem 700 Action beneficial?!
- Thread starter 8285JD
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Ok, I'll watch. The $700 price was arrived at by looking at pricing on your website. A price change could change my mind about 2-3 custom actions I had planned to buy this year.Not anymore. Hold my beer and watch this shit.
It's coming...
If you are going to pull a factory barrel from a 700 and rebarrel with a high quality aftermarket, I think it'd be silly not to true it first. How much difference would it make in the whole scheme of technical aspects of the rifle system, I can't answer that.
Many of the new custom actions are more cost effective, nicer, and have way better resale value than fully truing a 700. However, 700s are all I've ever used. Partly because I'm a lowly wage earner, and partly because they flat out work for me, and have over several thousand rounds for the last 15 years. I have a factory 700 SPS Tactical 308 dropped in a bell and carlson stock that shoots better than some of my trued guns with cusotm barrels. I've also had a factory SPS Varmint 243 that wouldn't shoot better than 3" at 100 yards, and a fully trued 6.5x47 with a high quality SS aftermarket barrel that wouldn't shooter better than 1.5" at 100 yards.
I prefer a 700 action with either a PTG 1 piece bolt, or a timed and tigged factory bolt. I like the original Remington extractor over the "improved" versions. They don't require removing metal from the bolt, they have been utterly reliable for ME, and I can replace them for about 12 dollars in the field with a flat blade screwdriver. I'm not all that familiar with the technical details of the available aftermarket actions, but in 15 years, will you still be able to easily get parts for a Bighorn, Defiance, Impact, etc? Can I go to MidwayUSA or PTG and buy bolt parts for the aftermarket actions? YMMV
Many of the new custom actions are more cost effective, nicer, and have way better resale value than fully truing a 700. However, 700s are all I've ever used. Partly because I'm a lowly wage earner, and partly because they flat out work for me, and have over several thousand rounds for the last 15 years. I have a factory 700 SPS Tactical 308 dropped in a bell and carlson stock that shoots better than some of my trued guns with cusotm barrels. I've also had a factory SPS Varmint 243 that wouldn't shoot better than 3" at 100 yards, and a fully trued 6.5x47 with a high quality SS aftermarket barrel that wouldn't shooter better than 1.5" at 100 yards.
I prefer a 700 action with either a PTG 1 piece bolt, or a timed and tigged factory bolt. I like the original Remington extractor over the "improved" versions. They don't require removing metal from the bolt, they have been utterly reliable for ME, and I can replace them for about 12 dollars in the field with a flat blade screwdriver. I'm not all that familiar with the technical details of the available aftermarket actions, but in 15 years, will you still be able to easily get parts for a Bighorn, Defiance, Impact, etc? Can I go to MidwayUSA or PTG and buy bolt parts for the aftermarket actions? YMMV
Not anymore. Hold my beer and watch this shit.
It's coming...
This is fantastic news.
Truing the action shouldn't theoretically do anything.
The thing is, who's going to build a custom and not spend the time to do it right?
So long as the action isn't moving in the stock, and the barrel is tight, it should be perfectly repeatable.
I've asked a few "Smiths" who told me I needed to do it, why exactly? None could explain anything beyond "it'll be more accurate". Does the thread accuracy matter once the barrel is torqued and those threads have mated? So long as nothing moves why does the accuracy fade?
Same with the action face. Once the barrel is torqued, so long as it's within the range of adjustment of your sights to get zero, it shouldn't matter.
I've embarrassed a few custom guns with a simple remage in a factory wood stock with glass bedding, factory 700 action, factory trigger (although tuned), factory recoil lug, factory bolt, but a good barrel that's free floated.
So the long answer is, if you have a 700 to use, use it as is and don't sweat it. If you think you need to have it trued don't spend a dime on it and buy aftermarket.
The thing is, who's going to build a custom and not spend the time to do it right?
So long as the action isn't moving in the stock, and the barrel is tight, it should be perfectly repeatable.
I've asked a few "Smiths" who told me I needed to do it, why exactly? None could explain anything beyond "it'll be more accurate". Does the thread accuracy matter once the barrel is torqued and those threads have mated? So long as nothing moves why does the accuracy fade?
Same with the action face. Once the barrel is torqued, so long as it's within the range of adjustment of your sights to get zero, it shouldn't matter.
I've embarrassed a few custom guns with a simple remage in a factory wood stock with glass bedding, factory 700 action, factory trigger (although tuned), factory recoil lug, factory bolt, but a good barrel that's free floated.
So the long answer is, if you have a 700 to use, use it as is and don't sweat it. If you think you need to have it trued don't spend a dime on it and buy aftermarket.
So, it doesn't matter if the face of the action is square to the threads? It doesn't matter if the bolt face is square as well? Everything will just line up when you torque it down?
D
Deleted member 10043
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We need more people like Chevy Man. I hear ya bro' Nothing wrong with custom shit but it is getting to where there are no prerequisites. Everybody wants to go straight to astronauts. Patches and all. I will never buy a used 700 action unless I know the person and the rifle's history. Don't buy a used trued Remington action.
D
Deleted member 10043
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Yes, it does matter but it helps to check before getting done first. It may not need unnecessary machining that will bring no noticeable benefit. If it is so out of square to begin with than why fix it. It's a POS.
(Most have probably already seen much of this, but anyway...) In regards to my earlier post:
-With beer in hand...(not really)
Remington M7, 700SA, and M700LA fixture in use:
Winchester M70 fixture I just completed.
The purpose for all this:
Watch an action being tuned up using the conventional practice once. These are just random videos that populated You Tube when I did a search. I chose them simply because they do a good job of demonstrating the process.
Cats head fixture dialed to the spindle and then go to work.
Here's ol Larry P. hard at it with some hand tools.
Ok, so most of us have been exposed to these two processes at some point. I have never cared for either all that much. There are a few things that work against you with both. 15 or so years ago I began playing around with this stuff on a vertical machining center. Over a weekend I bulldozed my way into a process that showed some promise.
We brought this to light in the spring of 2013 when LRI introduced the Group Buy here on The Hide. Thousands of actions have been tuned up since that time. That process used a vertical machining center fitted with a manual trunion table. Basically a sort of "ghetto 3+2" capability. It worked well and at the time nothing else came even close to the flexibility it offered. The Achilles heal became time/skill set. Setting the job up was faster than a lathe by over 3/4 of an hour. However the skill sets needed demanded that a guy be isolated from everyone else and not pressured. Demand for this stuff just drove us to solve it with a true 5 axis machine. The added advantage that I like is we are no longer tethered to setup tooling such as bushings and mandrels. Its a basic concept in machining to locate a part using qualified features on the actual part. Stacking things up to get a reading only promotes mistakes. (again, why a guy has to be left alone and contained in his own little "bubble" when doing this kind of work)
I'm pretty proud and excited about all of this. The intent from day one was to offer this stuff better and faster than anyone else. We now have that locked in pretty solid at the level we play at. All this work ultimately benefits the shooting community because now the work can be done much more affordably and with much more predictable results.
An example:
Over 40 actions were run here recently for one client. 10 of those were designated as 308 Winchesters. Random pieces were picked and those actions were lapped in. It never took more than 10 strokes of the bolt handle to show full lug contact. The threading program is designed so that pitch diameters can be chased .001" at a time for final barrel/receiver fit. That program required no editing for the run of 10. Last, all 10 of the actions headspaced within .001" of each other when completed. That part of the program was not altered as well.
.001" may sound like a lot but its really not. Not when you look at the whole package. There are 4 basic parts that influence this.
Thanks again.
C.
-With beer in hand...(not really)
Remington M7, 700SA, and M700LA fixture in use:
Winchester M70 fixture I just completed.
The purpose for all this:
Watch an action being tuned up using the conventional practice once. These are just random videos that populated You Tube when I did a search. I chose them simply because they do a good job of demonstrating the process.
Cats head fixture dialed to the spindle and then go to work.
Here's ol Larry P. hard at it with some hand tools.
Ok, so most of us have been exposed to these two processes at some point. I have never cared for either all that much. There are a few things that work against you with both. 15 or so years ago I began playing around with this stuff on a vertical machining center. Over a weekend I bulldozed my way into a process that showed some promise.
We brought this to light in the spring of 2013 when LRI introduced the Group Buy here on The Hide. Thousands of actions have been tuned up since that time. That process used a vertical machining center fitted with a manual trunion table. Basically a sort of "ghetto 3+2" capability. It worked well and at the time nothing else came even close to the flexibility it offered. The Achilles heal became time/skill set. Setting the job up was faster than a lathe by over 3/4 of an hour. However the skill sets needed demanded that a guy be isolated from everyone else and not pressured. Demand for this stuff just drove us to solve it with a true 5 axis machine. The added advantage that I like is we are no longer tethered to setup tooling such as bushings and mandrels. Its a basic concept in machining to locate a part using qualified features on the actual part. Stacking things up to get a reading only promotes mistakes. (again, why a guy has to be left alone and contained in his own little "bubble" when doing this kind of work)
I'm pretty proud and excited about all of this. The intent from day one was to offer this stuff better and faster than anyone else. We now have that locked in pretty solid at the level we play at. All this work ultimately benefits the shooting community because now the work can be done much more affordably and with much more predictable results.
An example:
Over 40 actions were run here recently for one client. 10 of those were designated as 308 Winchesters. Random pieces were picked and those actions were lapped in. It never took more than 10 strokes of the bolt handle to show full lug contact. The threading program is designed so that pitch diameters can be chased .001" at a time for final barrel/receiver fit. That program required no editing for the run of 10. Last, all 10 of the actions headspaced within .001" of each other when completed. That part of the program was not altered as well.
.001" may sound like a lot but its really not. Not when you look at the whole package. There are 4 basic parts that influence this.
- Barrel chamber
- Recoil lug
- Receiver ring
- The bolt.
Thanks again.
C.
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(Most have probably already seen much of this, but anyway...) In regards to my earlier post:
-With beer in hand...(not really)
Remington M7, 700SA, and M700LA fixture in use:
Winchester M70 fixture I just completed.
View attachment 7035255
The purpose for all this:
Watch an action being tuned up using the conventional practice once. These are just random videos that populated You Tube when I did a search. I chose them simply because they do a good job of demonstrating the process.
Cats head fixture dialed to the spindle and then go to work.
Here's ol Larry P. hard at it with some hand tools.
Ok, so most of us have been exposed to these two processes at some point. I have never cared for either all that much. There are a few things that work against you with both. 15 or so years ago I began playing around with this stuff on a vertical machining center. Over a weekend I bulldozed my way into a process that showed some promise.
We brought this to light in the spring of 2013 when LRI introduced the Group Buy here on The Hide. Thousands of actions have been tuned up since that time. That process used a vertical machining center fitted with a manual trunion table. Basically a sort of "ghetto 3+2" capability. It worked well and at the time nothing else came even close to the flexibility it offered. The Achilles heal became time/skill set. Setting the job up was faster than a lathe by over 3/4 of an hour. However the skill sets needed demanded that a guy be isolated from everyone else and not pressured. Demand for this stuff just drove us to solve it with a true 5 axis machine. The added advantage that I like is we are no longer tethered to setup tooling such as bushings and mandrels. Its a basic concept in machining to locate a part using qualified features on the actual part. Stacking things up to get a reading only promotes mistakes. (again, why a guy has to be left alone and contained in his own little "bubble" when doing this kind of work)
I'm pretty proud and excited about all of this. The intent from day one was to offer this stuff better and faster than anyone else. We now have that locked in pretty solid at the level we play at. All this work ultimately benefits the shooting community because now the work can be done much more affordably and with much more predictable results.
An example:
Over 40 actions were run here recently for one client. 10 of those were designated as 308 Winchesters. Random pieces were picked and those actions were lapped in. It never took more than 10 strokes of the bolt handle to show full lug contact. The threading program is designed so that pitch diameters can be chased .001" at a time for final barrel/receiver fit. That program required no editing for the run of 10. Last, all 10 of the actions headspaced within .001" of each other when completed. That part of the program was not altered as well.
.001" may sound like a lot but its really not. Not when you look at the whole package. There are 4 basic parts that influence this.
There's any number of ways to dissect this. One very easy way is to simply divide the tolerance over the number of parts. Done that way it means the 4 parts were held to within .00025" of print. There's any number of flaws in looking at it that way, but the end result is still the same; stuff is running very, very well.
- Barrel chamber
- Recoil lug
- Receiver ring
- The bolt.
Thanks again.
C.
But where is your 1000 yd trophy from 9 years ago????
Just kidding... I’m a Troll...
Bender you are definitely a troll and that work by Chad is awesome. Nice video!!!
I may have to send him an action this week!!!
Bender the picture is of a trued 700 used for 1000 yard work.
Look at the picture and tell us about the barrel size stock size and what's on the action and in front of you can?
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I don't know if it counts but I have a participation ribbon from my 10th grade science fair...
Within reason, no. It doesn't all need to be absolutely perfect, it just has to be repeatable. If it's torqued and not moving it will be repeatable. Accurately shooting little tiny groups comes from everything falling into the same place every time, not necessarily from the machining being perfect.
I've seen quite a few problem guns fixed with simply bedding the action and free floating the barrel. They weren't repeatable\accurate because they were shifting and pressure points were changing shot to shot.
All I'm saying is that all the factory actions I've come across were perfectly usable. I don't believe in modifying a factory action that locks you into weird thread sizes and doesn't help the issues that matter more (I would argue the bolt lugs and receiver flex are the most critical issues, while also the hardest to do anything about so most places skip it).
If you want perfectly true surfaces and bolt lugs, you're far better off going custom/aftermarket and getting something more rigid to start with.
Like this? The pictures show some Remington long action receivers next to a BAT for size comparison.
The picture I posted above is a long action Remington with a 36 inch barrel 1.750 at the muzzle which would ordinarily bend a 700 action.
Mine is sitting in a barrel block and nothing on the action touches the stock. The action free floats.
The picture I posted above is a long action Remington with a 36 inch barrel 1.750 at the muzzle which would ordinarily bend a 700 action.
Mine is sitting in a barrel block and nothing on the action touches the stock. The action free floats.
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Sort of like a guy with a wine cellar cracking open PBR …
Ok bud, so what is it you are trying to tell me, hmmm?
Interesting thread. Not sure how this is even a debate.
The way I see it. A rifle is complicated equation of factors that we can't see working together measured by a group of holes on paper. Each individual X-factor having a varying range of precision and effect on the overall equation. the combined range of variance and consistancy at which these factors align together each time being predictability or accuracy.
Perfection would be goal zero eliminating all variance and would theoretically put bullets through the same hole on every shot.
Isnt pretty much every combination of parts and modification we make meant to eliminate or reduce the variance of these factors in the equation?
Factory actions are a gamble and have an inconsistent range of variance on every factor to start. The point of blueprinting is to reduce the possible variance in each factor. How much this effects each actions precision is relative to how far out from perfect it was to begin with. The barrel having probably the highest factor into the equation, upgrading it will probably have your highest net gain in accuracy.
Custom actions are produced with a consistent tighter range of variance to begin with.
The way I see it. A rifle is complicated equation of factors that we can't see working together measured by a group of holes on paper. Each individual X-factor having a varying range of precision and effect on the overall equation. the combined range of variance and consistancy at which these factors align together each time being predictability or accuracy.
Perfection would be goal zero eliminating all variance and would theoretically put bullets through the same hole on every shot.
Isnt pretty much every combination of parts and modification we make meant to eliminate or reduce the variance of these factors in the equation?
Factory actions are a gamble and have an inconsistent range of variance on every factor to start. The point of blueprinting is to reduce the possible variance in each factor. How much this effects each actions precision is relative to how far out from perfect it was to begin with. The barrel having probably the highest factor into the equation, upgrading it will probably have your highest net gain in accuracy.
Custom actions are produced with a consistent tighter range of variance to begin with.
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