I want to start off by saying I'm new to posting on the forum, but I've been reading here for a while. I appreciate the information available here and all that the members have to offer! My question is just that, a question, not meant to belittle or annoy anyone. I understand that truing an action, if nothing else, is insurance, and worth the price to most, in most cases for that reason alone. But with that idea out of the equation, how much can truing the action actually help accuracy? I understand completely what truing an action does, and that is why im asking. Concentricity matters I'm sure, but to what degree? If the end result is wanting the bullets to hit as close together as possibly, would that not be solely the barrels job? If the tenon threads are out of concentricity, will our scope (assuming it can hold zero) not make up for that (same goes for action face)? If the locking lugs lack full contact, will that throw the brass off so much as to the bullet not being able to stabilize itself on its way down the barrel? And if the locking lugs don't have full contact, how would that affect accuracy inconsistently? Wouldn't that affect on accuracy be consistent? I understand that it's hard to test this because once you really true an action, your barrel is no longer usable with that action. So how do we not know that when we true an action and rebarrel it, its not jus the barrel that has improved our accuracy? After all, we hardly ever replace a factory barrel with a lesser quality one. I know this goes against the majority, and I understand if I'm inaccurate in my presumptions, but remove all contempt and really think about it. Also if when we true up an action, we get it to 0.0002 concentricity on the lathe, which seems standard (correct me if im wrong), that equates to almost exactly 1 MOA. Coincidence? I'm not sure, either way. Anyway, I've just been thinking about this and wanted to submit it to somewhere that it can reach an audience above my intelligence. What are your thoughts, and how can they debunk the ideas i've listed? Any info appreciated, Thanks!!
Gunsmithing Trued Rem 700 Action beneficial?!
- Thread starter 8285JD
- Start date
i would suggest reading the stickys if you havent already. They will show what innaccuracies a factory action could have better than i could explain. I would start with an aftermarket action compared to truing a rem. I know everyone always starts with truing a rem, then the bug bites and next thing you know you have 6 aftermarket actions.
In my non professional opinion, is kind of like race car engines. To get a big improvement in horsepower, it’s reletavely easy, swap out a few parts. To ring out all the horsepower a given engine can produce takes a ton of work, money, and a master at the art.
I’ve been doing my own work for about 5 years now, and I’m no master, but I believe that 90% of the accuracy improvements are in the quality of the barrel and the job done on the chamber and muzzle. I’ve built a number of rifles mostly off remingtons that have shot at or under 0.375” at 100 yds. With the quality components now available this isn’t too hard.
Then I went to spend some time with Gordy Gritters. When I returned, I built another rifle, this time incorporating everything he had taught me. The result was as true of a Remington 700 as I could make with very tight clearances. Everything was reworked. I would never take this rifle off the bench, a single hair will cause the bolt to bind. But it shoots a 0.1” group at 100 yds.
So to answer your question, yes it matters. How much does each step help? Don’t really know. But in combination it all adds up.
I’ve been doing my own work for about 5 years now, and I’m no master, but I believe that 90% of the accuracy improvements are in the quality of the barrel and the job done on the chamber and muzzle. I’ve built a number of rifles mostly off remingtons that have shot at or under 0.375” at 100 yds. With the quality components now available this isn’t too hard.
Then I went to spend some time with Gordy Gritters. When I returned, I built another rifle, this time incorporating everything he had taught me. The result was as true of a Remington 700 as I could make with very tight clearances. Everything was reworked. I would never take this rifle off the bench, a single hair will cause the bolt to bind. But it shoots a 0.1” group at 100 yds.
So to answer your question, yes it matters. How much does each step help? Don’t really know. But in combination it all adds up.
Go get a custom. By the time you buy a Rem700, true it, add a 20moa base, PTG recoil lug, and install a custom barrel you spent what an Origin cost or more. But you still have a sloppy Rem700.
Want to fix that sloppy bolt fitment, Add a custom fitted PTG bolt, have everything coated (cerakote or DLC) and have a side bolt release installed you spent what a TL3 cost or more...
Guess what, after spending all that money you still have a Rem 700 which will never have the resale value a custom action does and it still wont have the quality or feel of a custom action.
Going the custom action route is also much faster. No downtime sending your action to a Smith, waiting for all the custom work and coatings, etc. Buy a custom, spin on a prefit or shouldered barrel and drop in a stock/chassis. Places like Keystone Accuracy can ship you a barrel ready to spin on your new TL3 in less than 2 weeks (most times faster).
You arent the first one to do this. Just trying to save you money, time, and hassle in the long run.
NOW, if you ONLY plan to go the cheap route and get a smoking deal on a Rem700 or donor rifle and want to have the lugs, threads and receiver face cleaned up and barrel spun then that's different. You dont care about bolt fitment, coatings, side bolt release, etc and 100% arent going to do any of this additional work to your Rem700 than that would be THE ONLY time I would say go for the trued Rem700 route. Especially if you have a local smith that does the cleanup and barrel work at reasonable prices....
My first every bolt gun was a Remington 700 5R 308 which got me hooked and I made the mistake of going down the rabbit hole once I got bit by the bug. I learned the hard way.
I decided to convert my Rem700 SS action to 6.5cm. Stripped the entire action, had my local smith at the time take measurements of the receiver race way and account for cerakote on both the inside of the receiver and on the new bolt then provided those measurements to PTG. I ordered from them a custom, spiral fluted bolt with exact tolerances to remove the factory slop from my action and still be reliable without binding. Had the receiver trued, had a Bartlein installed, Murphy Precision SS 20moa scope base, new bolt knob, receiver, bolt, scope base and barrel cerakoted.
After all that work, which I got good gunsmith pricing on compared to the bigger, well known companies, I still paid more than a brand new Bighorn TL3 cost and it will never be a TL3. I learned my lesson after that experience. The gun shot great, just was never as smooth or nice as a custom action. I sold that barreled action and lost my ass on it. Nobody is going to pay you what you put into doing all that work to a Rem700.
Bottom line....I learned my lesson the hard, expensive way! lol
Cleaned up Rem700 receiver
Bartlein installed and chambered on cleaned up Rem700 receiver
Blended Kampfeld Customs 3 Port Brake to my Bartlein M24 barrel
Custom fitted PTG Bolt
Complete Rifle dropped into XLR Carbon Chassis
Want to fix that sloppy bolt fitment, Add a custom fitted PTG bolt, have everything coated (cerakote or DLC) and have a side bolt release installed you spent what a TL3 cost or more...
Guess what, after spending all that money you still have a Rem 700 which will never have the resale value a custom action does and it still wont have the quality or feel of a custom action.
Going the custom action route is also much faster. No downtime sending your action to a Smith, waiting for all the custom work and coatings, etc. Buy a custom, spin on a prefit or shouldered barrel and drop in a stock/chassis. Places like Keystone Accuracy can ship you a barrel ready to spin on your new TL3 in less than 2 weeks (most times faster).
You arent the first one to do this. Just trying to save you money, time, and hassle in the long run.
NOW, if you ONLY plan to go the cheap route and get a smoking deal on a Rem700 or donor rifle and want to have the lugs, threads and receiver face cleaned up and barrel spun then that's different. You dont care about bolt fitment, coatings, side bolt release, etc and 100% arent going to do any of this additional work to your Rem700 than that would be THE ONLY time I would say go for the trued Rem700 route. Especially if you have a local smith that does the cleanup and barrel work at reasonable prices....
My first every bolt gun was a Remington 700 5R 308 which got me hooked and I made the mistake of going down the rabbit hole once I got bit by the bug. I learned the hard way.
I decided to convert my Rem700 SS action to 6.5cm. Stripped the entire action, had my local smith at the time take measurements of the receiver race way and account for cerakote on both the inside of the receiver and on the new bolt then provided those measurements to PTG. I ordered from them a custom, spiral fluted bolt with exact tolerances to remove the factory slop from my action and still be reliable without binding. Had the receiver trued, had a Bartlein installed, Murphy Precision SS 20moa scope base, new bolt knob, receiver, bolt, scope base and barrel cerakoted.
After all that work, which I got good gunsmith pricing on compared to the bigger, well known companies, I still paid more than a brand new Bighorn TL3 cost and it will never be a TL3. I learned my lesson after that experience. The gun shot great, just was never as smooth or nice as a custom action. I sold that barreled action and lost my ass on it. Nobody is going to pay you what you put into doing all that work to a Rem700.
Bottom line....I learned my lesson the hard, expensive way! lol
Cleaned up Rem700 receiver
Bartlein installed and chambered on cleaned up Rem700 receiver
Blended Kampfeld Customs 3 Port Brake to my Bartlein M24 barrel
Custom fitted PTG Bolt
Complete Rifle dropped into XLR Carbon Chassis
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D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
The downfall of a Remington action isn't necessarily in it being straight and true on the inside. The machinist that made it could have done so perfectly, and the ham fisted gorilla that polished it would make absolute sure that the top of the action where the sight base goes on is as uneven as possible.
I have had about 8 Remingtons and only 1 didn't need bedding under the scope base, and if I remember correctly, that one the was made back in the 70's or early 80's. Maybe one of the 40x's or one of the custom shop jobs would be good but then you could have a custom for the same price.
I have had about 8 Remingtons and only 1 didn't need bedding under the scope base, and if I remember correctly, that one the was made back in the 70's or early 80's. Maybe one of the 40x's or one of the custom shop jobs would be good but then you could have a custom for the same price.
I understand what your saying, and appreciate the replies. I wasnt implying that I wanted to true a R700, actually was more or less asking how effective it really is. If 90% of accuracy comes form the barrel( which I also believe, if not more) aside from elr shooting, or jus wanting too, why would you need a trued action. If you can put a Remage barrel on stock action and shoot sub moa consistently, is that not within the parameters of most of the shooters?
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No experience there, I assume you mean the actual metal on top of the receiver isn't even from side to side and front to back. Or do you mean the mounting holes were uneven? Presumably you mean the former, because bedding the base would help the latter, would it?
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
I did mean the former, but I forgot to add Remington's propensity for drilling mounting holes crooked. Thanks for reminding me.
The newer 700 actions are of way better quality than the older actions are. The myth is you want a 60's or 70's 700 action because the machining is better when it isn't.
Most shops are not capable of correctly truing up a action so they do a partial job as best they can.
I am not familiar with the actions listed above but alot of custom actions have sloppy tolerances especially those intended for tactical guns.
With a PT&G bolt you can true up a 700 to tighter tolerances than most custom tactical actions and the gun is just as capable as any action out there
If all your after is half minute accuracy just put a good barrel on and your all set
If you want all you can get out of your gun get it trued up.
I have two 700 Remington's that have shoot 3.5 inch groups at 1000 yards in Benchrest competition which is harder than just practicing early in the morning under ideal conditions
Most shops are not capable of correctly truing up a action so they do a partial job as best they can.
I am not familiar with the actions listed above but alot of custom actions have sloppy tolerances especially those intended for tactical guns.
With a PT&G bolt you can true up a 700 to tighter tolerances than most custom tactical actions and the gun is just as capable as any action out there
If all your after is half minute accuracy just put a good barrel on and your all set
If you want all you can get out of your gun get it trued up.
I have two 700 Remington's that have shoot 3.5 inch groups at 1000 yards in Benchrest competition which is harder than just practicing early in the morning under ideal conditions
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The factory recoil lugs are junk and here is a aftermarket one that’s junk also. Not only is there a .0015” ding in top but it measures different thickness from side to side and top to bottom and inside hole is also different measurements. There is a lot more than just “blueprinting” to get a 700 to shoot as good or better than a custom.
This pretty well answers what I was asking. Consistent 1 min actions, maybe better, with better barrels, and most likely better velocities. I had jus seen where people kept saying not to waste time and money with a 700 action, just step up to a custom. Although at prices customs can be had now,
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but also wouldn't cut the 700 action out of the equation completely, or hound on them for being cheap for going that route. I believe that choice is still a viable and competent route for a lot of folks. Thanks for the replies and insight!!
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
All I did was switch my stock 700s triggers and switched to Remage prefits and they started shooting like Savages accuracy wise, which was a big economic improvement. There is not much of a difference in price between the NSS trued and regular 700 actions. Probably not much difference in performance either.
http://northlandshooterssupply.com/actions/remington/
http://northlandshooterssupply.com/actions/remington/
You hear alot about custom actions but most of them offer very little to the average shooter.
With a custom you get a side bolt release which is a $20 upgrade for the 700 action.
I don't use sandwich style recoil lugs so that is a throw away item for me but it's worth $30 if you need one.
You get the choice of which side you want the empties to eject from so it offers a little more speed.
The bolt fit on most tactical type custom actions is too sloppy for great accuracy.
The biggest thing a custom offers for me is a beefier bolt tenon and less bending.
With the added rigidity you can hang a much stiffer longer barrel on the action without ruining the bedding a problem you don't have with a chassis and the relatively light barrels used on those type guns.
The pictures show a BAT action used for unlimited type Benchrest shooting with a very heavy type barrel weighing over 20+ pounds compared to a few 700 actions for comparison.
With a custom you get a side bolt release which is a $20 upgrade for the 700 action.
I don't use sandwich style recoil lugs so that is a throw away item for me but it's worth $30 if you need one.
You get the choice of which side you want the empties to eject from so it offers a little more speed.
The bolt fit on most tactical type custom actions is too sloppy for great accuracy.
The biggest thing a custom offers for me is a beefier bolt tenon and less bending.
With the added rigidity you can hang a much stiffer longer barrel on the action without ruining the bedding a problem you don't have with a chassis and the relatively light barrels used on those type guns.
The pictures show a BAT action used for unlimited type Benchrest shooting with a very heavy type barrel weighing over 20+ pounds compared to a few 700 actions for comparison.
Attachments
What you are saying here is correct.
Let's face it, most stock , heavy barrel remingtons will easily shoot sub-moa. A good trigger will shrink the groups a bit more, and a quality stock or chassis even more (provided the stock it came in was crap).
Remington barrels are, by and large, decent factory barrels. At one time, before he became overwhelmed with work, Mike at Tac-ops offered a tune-up service using a factory barrel that was guaranteed to shoot 1/2 moa with FGMM.
I had a 5R mil-spec, it has long since been rebuilt. Nothing I have has ever shot any better than that rifle, with the original barrel.
A high quality aftermarket barrel gives you consistency, a trued action gives you a bit more consistency, as everything is concentric with the centerline. It all adds up in the end.
There has been some good points made. But, you need to look at what you want and can achieve with reasonable effort.
I want a rifle to shoot 1/2 moa @ 100 yds, 5 shot group. Thats all I want.
My gunsmith buddy is self taught machinist. He will square action face and true up face Bolt.
I buy min speccd Match reamers. Most are ground for particular bullet and wt. pertaing to freebore. I get them ground so Lapua brass has .003 nexk clearance.
I only buy cut rifled bbls. This is just my choice
I only use bbl wts of Sendero, VS contour or lighter. I have no reason to use heavier bbl’s.
With this comb of action work, cut rifled bbl’s, Min specc’d reamers with match bullets and Lapua brass, I have no issues obtaining accuracy level I expect.
With this being said, this is a Tactical website. Their are lots better options than a Rem 700 action period. But until someone shoots at Me, or I have to shoot at someone a good ole 700 suits me
I want a rifle to shoot 1/2 moa @ 100 yds, 5 shot group. Thats all I want.
My gunsmith buddy is self taught machinist. He will square action face and true up face Bolt.
I buy min speccd Match reamers. Most are ground for particular bullet and wt. pertaing to freebore. I get them ground so Lapua brass has .003 nexk clearance.
I only buy cut rifled bbls. This is just my choice
I only use bbl wts of Sendero, VS contour or lighter. I have no reason to use heavier bbl’s.
With this comb of action work, cut rifled bbl’s, Min specc’d reamers with match bullets and Lapua brass, I have no issues obtaining accuracy level I expect.
With this being said, this is a Tactical website. Their are lots better options than a Rem 700 action period. But until someone shoots at Me, or I have to shoot at someone a good ole 700 suits me
Same here, except I spent a little money to get the bolt handle timed, and get some primary extraction.
Most of the time, the biggest gain in accuracy is a stress free bedding job. If it is not stress free, you may as well not bedded it at all.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
They just remove the bolt handle and silver soldier it back on the right place. Or LRI goes a little further. A local guy does them for 45, but just silver soldiers them.
https://www.longriflesinc.com/colle...rvices/products/time-and-tig-service-for-m700
Who is installing side bolt release on a 700 for 20 bucks?
Yeah, I saw that. I'll tell you who, No one.
The bolt release MIGHT be found for 20 bucks, but the install is significantly more.
You buy the side bolt release from Sinclair International in black or silver and install it by threading a single hole. Some Remington's already have the hole some don't. I do this type of work myself.
I tried posting the picture but I get an error message saying it is too large. If someone can resize it for posting let me know and I will send it to you.
I tried posting the picture but I get an error message saying it is too large. If someone can resize it for posting let me know and I will send it to you.
Are you talking about one like this?
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...bolt-stops/sinclair-bolt-stops-prod34712.aspx
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...bolt-stops/sinclair-bolt-stops-prod34712.aspx
I have or have had most of the top custom actions. Surgeon, Borden, Nesika, AI, Kelby etc. I am sure I have missed out on a few of the newer ones.
I like 700's for many uses. I prefer the 700 extractor to most of the "improved" versions. I like the feel of a trued, double sleeved 700 bolt the way Mike Lau at TBA and others do them. They shoot as well as most others.
I am sure truing up a 700 R is not cost effective. Not going to be as tough as an AIAX or as precise as a Borden.
I simply like the feel and function I get. Sort of like a guy with a wine cellar cracking open PBR …
I like 700's for many uses. I prefer the 700 extractor to most of the "improved" versions. I like the feel of a trued, double sleeved 700 bolt the way Mike Lau at TBA and others do them. They shoot as well as most others.
I am sure truing up a 700 R is not cost effective. Not going to be as tough as an AIAX or as precise as a Borden.
I simply like the feel and function I get. Sort of like a guy with a wine cellar cracking open PBR …
The one in the link is the one I am talking about.
On the XP and 600 actions it is a direct fit after removing the plug screw. I wear gloves so many of the milled in bolt releases are not that easy to use in cold weather.
Yes that is it. If you have an XP-100 or 600 Remington action you just screw it in. On a 700 you drill and tap it first.
I wear gloves and it is a little easier to operate than some of the toggle models found on custom actions.
On the XP and 600 actions it is a direct fit after removing the plug screw. I wear gloves so many of the milled in bolt releases are not that easy to use in cold weather.
Yes that is it. If you have an XP-100 or 600 Remington action you just screw it in. On a 700 you drill and tap it first.
I wear gloves and it is a little easier to operate than some of the toggle models found on custom actions.
I want to start off by saying I'm new to posting on the forum, but I've been reading here for a while. I appreciate the information available here and all that the members have to offer! My question is just that, a question, not meant to belittle or annoy anyone. I understand that truing an action, if nothing else, is insurance, and worth the price to most, in most cases for that reason alone. But with that idea out of the equation, how much can truing the action actually help accuracy?
As previously suggested, by itself blueprinting won't amount to much. The whole package really needs to be considered. What were after here is just like you said; ensuring all the critical features are machined in a manner that pays attention to the details. That alone is kind of a core component for any well made product. Using the car analogy, it can be expressed like this:
The midlife crisis hits and you decide you want a fast car. There's two fundamental choices. You can run down to any dealership and stroke a check for a vehicle that'll far exceed expectation and offer exponentially more performance than anything built in the "muscle car era" of the 1960's and 1970's. Go drive the snot out of it, have fun, and if you ever decide to flip it, it'll retain a good portion of its value because its not molested by a dirt bag such as myself.
OR
You find one that's a base model, older, whatever, and you drag it home for cents on the dollar. Then, mash the pedal on the check book and as you decide on all your parts for the upgrade, you discover that you spent about the same as if you just bought a new car. The difference is, you had a personal hand in it and its exactly what you want. The decision here though is that if you go to sell it, you'll likely get about twenty five cents on the dollar because hot rod cars are everywhere. The one advantage here is that quite often disposable income doesn't allow for a "blank check" approach. Doing it this way affords you the ability to chip away at it. The intangible plus here also is that you did it, and it runs neck for neck with the guy down the street who makes it a point to remind you of his new car every time he goes by your house.
I understand completely what truing an action does, and that is why im asking. Concentricity matters I'm sure, but to what degree? If the end result is wanting the bullets to hit as close together as possibly, would that not be solely the barrels job? If the tenon threads are out of concentricity, will our scope (assuming it can hold zero) not make up for that (same goes for action face)? If the locking lugs lack full contact, will that throw the brass off so much as to the bullet not being able to stabilize itself on its way down the barrel? And if the locking lugs don't have full contact, how would that affect accuracy inconsistently?
Answering this conclusively can be really tough. As you eluded, the barrel quality does most of the grunt work here. With that though, there is something to be said about ensuring the mating surfaces are machined accurately and with a good surface finish. Anymore, "blueprinting" is simply not enough. The action must also work. I was a production manager for Nesika Bay Precision once. At the time, those actions were highly sought after, particularly by the bench rest and Palma community. Those actions were made incredibly tight. Too tight imo. They only worked well in a very narrow set of parameters. Lessons learned...
Things like Primary Extraction, having a handle that stays on when a case gets stuck, and knowing that the scope points in the same direction as the barrel and won't shear the screws in recoil is kind of a big deal. (This is where I sound like a salesman, but whatever.) Its precisely why I offer the blueprinting services that I do as a package that covers these items specifically. As just one little example: The "Gamer Gun" crowd changes barrels now like tires on a race car, so having a pinned lug on an action like the M700 becomes a big deal when fitted in a pillar bedded stock. It just ensures the lug goes on the same way each time. That, combined with the machine work of getting things as we want, are what you should be paying for in today's world of "custom" gunmaking.
As far as quantifying what a blueprinted action does over one scored for cheap at a pawn shop, it's very tough to say. The gains are small, but they do seem to consistently out perform. Its the difference between 1250 and 1275 hp in a pro stock car. 25hp is not much, but when the two line up, the difference becomes relevant.
Wouldn't that affect on accuracy be consistent? I understand that it's hard to test this because once you really true an action, your barrel is no longer usable with that action. So how do we not know that when we true an action and rebarrel it, its not jus the barrel that has improved our accuracy? After all, we hardly ever replace a factory barrel with a lesser quality one. I know this goes against the majority, and I understand if I'm inaccurate in my presumptions, but remove all contempt and really think about it.
I am of the opinion that the only way to really answer this is by doing a large number of them over a duration. Then compare the overall picture. That is the advantage I (and others) have. WE get to see this stuff every day and volume has a voice that compels one to listen. Doing literally thousands of receivers draws a conclusion that the effort has reward. The guns run better and they shoot better. As I eluded to earlier, anymore its as much about the interface with the gun as it is its accuracy potential. Kind of like cars: The new stuff out these days approaches #### horsepower levels, yet anyone can drive it to and from a movie theater on a Saturday night and not burn through a tank of fuel. With the resources available today, there's no reason not to have the same expectation with the M700 (afterall, most of the "custom" actions are just a remix of it anyway)
Also if when we true up an action, we get it to 0.0002 concentricity on the lathe, which seems standard (correct me if im wrong), that equates to almost exactly 1 MOA. Coincidence? I'm not sure, either way. Anyway, I've just been thinking about this and wanted to submit it to somewhere that it can reach an audience above my intelligence. What are your thoughts, and how can they debunk the ideas i've listed? Any info appreciated, Thanks!!
First, and this may agitate someone. .0002" is a very difficult number to truly attain reliably. IF we removed ourselves from gunmaking for a moment and walked into a gear shop, we'd see that in order to maintain .0002" on anything, it takes an enormous capital investment. Those gears are hobbed, then heat treated, then ground and lapped. I only know this because I once worked in the metrology lab at West Industries in Hudson, WI. My job was to perform in process inspections using a $2,000,000.00 Zeiss/Hoffler CMM specifically made for the task. It was a 30m calibration and warmup cycle each morning just to use the thing.
When you look at how barrels are fitted in conventional gear head, machine lathes, the odds just don't work in your favor. Class 9 Gamut Spindle bearings were the type to have 15 years ago in a tool room lathe. The only machine that really had them was the Harrison Alpha 1330U. There were only 2 of em in the US at that time; Borden and Nesika. As good as they are, it was still a challenge to really hold concentricity to that level because you have all the other things trying to ruin your day.
We could dissect this a 100 more ways, but I hope I provided some perspective based on what I've seen over a decent amount of time.
Hope this helps. Good question(s) btw.
C.
Here's a video we made years ago detailing a lot of this:
As previously suggested, by itself blueprinting won't amount to much. The whole package really needs to be considered. What were after here is just like you said; ensuring all the critical features are machined in a manner that pays attention to the details. That alone is kind of a core component for any well made product. Using the car analogy, it can be expressed like this:
The midlife crisis hits and you decide you want a fast car. There's two fundamental choices. You can run down to any dealership and stroke a check for a vehicle that'll far exceed expectation and offer exponentially more performance than anything built in the "muscle car era" of the 1960's and 1970's. Go drive the snot out of it, have fun, and if you ever decide to flip it, it'll retain a good portion of its value because its not molested by a dirt bag such as myself.
OR
You find one that's a base model, older, whatever, and you drag it home for cents on the dollar. Then, mash the pedal on the check book and as you decide on all your parts for the upgrade, you discover that you spent about the same as if you just bought a new car. The difference is, you had a personal hand in it and its exactly what you want. The decision here though is that if you go to sell it, you'll likely get about twenty five cents on the dollar because hot rod cars are everywhere. The one advantage here is that quite often disposable income doesn't allow for a "blank check" approach. Doing it this way affords you the ability to chip away at it. The intangible plus here also is that you did it, and it runs neck for neck with the guy down the street who makes it a point to remind you of his new car every time he goes by your house.
I understand completely what truing an action does, and that is why im asking. Concentricity matters I'm sure, but to what degree? If the end result is wanting the bullets to hit as close together as possibly, would that not be solely the barrels job? If the tenon threads are out of concentricity, will our scope (assuming it can hold zero) not make up for that (same goes for action face)? If the locking lugs lack full contact, will that throw the brass off so much as to the bullet not being able to stabilize itself on its way down the barrel? And if the locking lugs don't have full contact, how would that affect accuracy inconsistently?
Answering this conclusively can be really tough. As you eluded, the barrel quality does most of the grunt work here. With that though, there is something to be said about ensuring the mating surfaces are machined accurately and with a good surface finish. Anymore, "blueprinting" is simply not enough. The action must also work. I was a production manager for Nesika Bay Precision once. At the time, those actions were highly sought after, particularly by the bench rest and Palma community. Those actions were made incredibly tight. Too tight imo. They only worked well in a very narrow set of parameters. Lessons learned...
Things like Primary Extraction, having a handle that stays on when a case gets stuck, and knowing that the scope points in the same direction as the barrel and won't shear the screws in recoil is kind of a big deal. (This is where I sound like a salesman, but whatever.) Its precisely why I offer the blueprinting services that I do as a package that covers these items specifically. As just one little example: The "Gamer Gun" crowd changes barrels now like tires on a race car, so having a pinned lug on an action like the M700 becomes a big deal when fitted in a pillar bedded stock. It just ensures the lug goes on the same way each time. That, combined with the machine work of getting things as we want, are what you should be paying for in today's world of "custom" gunmaking.
As far as quantifying what a blueprinted action does over one scored for cheap at a pawn shop, it's very tough to say. The gains are small, but they do seem to consistently out perform. Its the difference between 1250 and 1275 hp in a pro stock car. 25hp is not much, but when the two line up, the difference becomes relevant.
Wouldn't that affect on accuracy be consistent? I understand that it's hard to test this because once you really true an action, your barrel is no longer usable with that action. So how do we not know that when we true an action and rebarrel it, its not jus the barrel that has improved our accuracy? After all, we hardly ever replace a factory barrel with a lesser quality one. I know this goes against the majority, and I understand if I'm inaccurate in my presumptions, but remove all contempt and really think about it.
I am of the opinion that the only way to really answer this is by doing a large number of them over a duration. Then compare the overall picture. That is the advantage I (and others) have. WE get to see this stuff every day and volume has a voice that compels one to listen. Doing literally thousands of receivers draws a conclusion that the effort has reward. The guns run better and they shoot better. As I eluded to earlier, anymore its as much about the interface with the gun as it is its accuracy potential. Kind of like cars: The new stuff out these days approaches #### horsepower levels, yet anyone can drive it to and from a movie theater on a Saturday night and not burn through a tank of fuel. With the resources available today, there's no reason not to have the same expectation with the M700 (afterall, most of the "custom" actions are just a remix of it anyway)
Also if when we true up an action, we get it to 0.0002 concentricity on the lathe, which seems standard (correct me if im wrong), that equates to almost exactly 1 MOA. Coincidence? I'm not sure, either way. Anyway, I've just been thinking about this and wanted to submit it to somewhere that it can reach an audience above my intelligence. What are your thoughts, and how can they debunk the ideas i've listed? Any info appreciated, Thanks!!
First, and this may agitate someone. .0002" is a very difficult number to truly attain reliably. IF we removed ourselves from gunmaking for a moment and walked into a gear shop, we'd see that in order to maintain .0002" on anything, it takes an enormous capital investment. Those gears are hobbed, then heat treated, then ground and lapped. I only know this because I once worked in the metrology lab at West Industries in Hudson, WI. My job was to perform in process inspections using a $2,000,000.00 Zeiss/Hoffler CMM specifically made for the task. It was a 30m calibration and warmup cycle each morning just to use the thing.
When you look at how barrels are fitted in conventional gear head, machine lathes, the odds just don't work in your favor. Class 9 Gamut Spindle bearings were the type to have 15 years ago in a tool room lathe. The only machine that really had them was the Harrison Alpha 1330U. There were only 2 of em in the US at that time; Borden and Nesika. As good as they are, it was still a challenge to really hold concentricity to that level because you have all the other things trying to ruin your day.
- Pilot runout on the reamer. Lets say its .0001"
- Clearance between pilot and minor bore diameter. It must have clearance for it to even work. Lets say were .00015" This assumes of course you have a pilot. A trend has emerged that I dabbled with a decade ago, get rid of it to promote additional fluid exchange at the cutting surfaces for chip removal and cutter lubrication. I tried it and eventually evolved into having my tools made differently. Supporting the nose of the tool just helps to steer it and it'll dampen tool chatter better than being left hanging in space.
- Spindle runout. A good spindle will typically hold .00005" A typical lathe used in this trade might see that brand new, bearings wear out. They only last for so long and the moment you fire it up, the clock starts.
We could dissect this a 100 more ways, but I hope I provided some perspective based on what I've seen over a decent amount of time.
Hope this helps. Good question(s) btw.
C.
Here's a video we made years ago detailing a lot of this:
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Longrifles
We have had the 700 action and great barrels for decades.
You won't find a 700 action in a Benchrest match and those guns own all the world records for smallest groups at 100,200 and 300 yards.
If a true concentric action was of no value all of those guys would be using surplus 98 Mauser's and a good barrel.
They don't.
On a tactical rifle a factory action or a custom with loose tolerances seems to work.
We have had the 700 action and great barrels for decades.
You won't find a 700 action in a Benchrest match and those guns own all the world records for smallest groups at 100,200 and 300 yards.
If a true concentric action was of no value all of those guys would be using surplus 98 Mauser's and a good barrel.
They don't.
On a tactical rifle a factory action or a custom with loose tolerances seems to work.
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Where did I say its of no benefit? Nowhere. What I did say in response to his exact question was its difficult to quantify the difference in performance gain between an action off the shelf vs one that has been worked over. Paraphrasing his statement, using the existing barrel isn't really practical since the thread dimensions change. So, Its difficult to go from a control to the experiement before/after because the parts no longer fit.
I guess I'm beating around the bush to understand your point.
FWIW: I watched Sgt Major (retired) Norm Crawford prone out and bang scores with just as good of an X count as all the other Palma Team Members did with their rifles in 2003. Norm was shooting a tuned up M700. The only M700 on the team. The rest were shooting every high dollar piece available at the time. So, my gut says that if it'll work with a shitty little 308 running an even shittier 155 Match King, it'll work in a forgiving PPC with premium hand made bullets and cases at 1/3rd the distance. Bench rest is an equipment race for sure, however those who do it well will be the first to acknowledge that wind and mirage are just as big of a challenge to reconcile at 300 as a palma shooter's1000.
M700's were used for a long, long time in BR back in the day. What I think would be interesting to see is the historical improvement of plot sheets over the time period as the aftermarket stuff became more prevelant. Even then, who's to say barrel manufacturing, optic quality, and ammunition building has not improved as well.
Like I said, trying to control this and narrow it down to a conclusive answer is not an easy thing to do.
If you were to attend a BR match you might be surprised as to how many Remington 40X actions would be on the firing line. Pretty sure that Chad has a good idea as to the accuracy potential for both factory and custom actions.
Actually I won the NBRSA 1000 Yard Nationals in 2010 at Sacramento and have been to countless benchrest matches. The only Remington's I see on the line today are from new shooters getting started and they quickly upgrade if they stay in the game.
On a barrel blocked gun the 700 all trued up is just as good as any custom and in alot of cases has much better tolerances than alot of custom actions.
Quantifying each step has already been beaten to death on other accuracy forums. If your Chad Dixon this has been discussed on Benchrest Central for more than a decade hasn't it?
On a barrel blocked gun the 700 all trued up is just as good as any custom and in alot of cases has much better tolerances than alot of custom actions.
Quantifying each step has already been beaten to death on other accuracy forums. If your Chad Dixon this has been discussed on Benchrest Central for more than a decade hasn't it?
So which is it? Just a moment ago you said you wouldn't find one anywhere at match, now it's only the beginners.
Pick a story dude...
I've answered the OP's questions as truthfully as I can. This has eroded to little more than dramatic scenery so I'm out. Enjoy the new year.
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I had a Remington LTR rebarreled some years back. I went with the same contour/caliber in a Krieger 1/11 twist with a break . I had the receiver trued as part of a group buy. Upon getting it back from 'smith which had "milled" the bedding block, it shot worse than the factory LTR. I surmise that "blueprinted" is not always "blueprinted". The gun is at best a 3/4 MOA rifle. Won't make that mistake again in having a 700 blueprinted.
When I say barrel blocked it's a big piece of metal wood or Delrin that usually grips the entire circumference of the barrel for 4-16 inches depending on barrel length and diameter and the action and trigger completely float in space. It is mainly done on very big barrels not used on this type of forum.
Blueprinted covers a wide spectrum and many gunsmiths offering the service don't have the tooling necessary to do it correctly.
In the old days you would get the firing pin bushed the bolt shroud tightened up the trigger timed the bolt would be double sleeved and a wide variety of other steps.
Today most will buy a bare receiver and a aftermarket bolt and have someone like Greg Tannel do his magic on the receiver.
I would post pictures but they are too big for this website.
Blueprinted covers a wide spectrum and many gunsmiths offering the service don't have the tooling necessary to do it correctly.
In the old days you would get the firing pin bushed the bolt shroud tightened up the trigger timed the bolt would be double sleeved and a wide variety of other steps.
Today most will buy a bare receiver and a aftermarket bolt and have someone like Greg Tannel do his magic on the receiver.
I would post pictures but they are too big for this website.
Square, parallel, concentric, true all help. I forget which gunsmith said those things but he was right. The closer a rifle can come to perfectly square, parallel, and concentric the better they shoot. I'm no gunsmith, but I do try and pay attention to the wisdom of those who know far more than I do. There is a consistency to what the really good rifle smiths do to make their creations shoot well, and that it because those things work.
I think many of us (myself included) have difficulty wringing the last little sixteenth of an inch of accuracy out of a really well built rifle. I admit that I'm not a really good bench rest shooter, and I have difficulty getting groups under .25". However, if I give that rifle to someone who IS a better bench rest shooter, they can cut those groups in half. So, often the inherent accuracy is in the rifle, but I just can't achieve it's true potential.
The same precision applies to the ammunition to get rifles to really shoot. Reloading for a super precision rifle is just as important as the rifle. Even the weight down to .1 grains, and the bearing length of each bullet matters as the longer bearing length bullets have more friction inside the bore. Cartridge cases also need to be weighed as heavier cases usually means that the inside of the case has a slightly smaller chamber in which to burn the propellent, resulting in higher pressure...albiet very small.
A world class Palma shooter told me that he spends a great deal of time weighing brass, bullets, measuring bullets for bearing length long before any cases are even primed. Heavy bullets go with light cases, light bullets go with heavy cases...even though he separates cases and bullets into groups differing by .1 grain. Then he gets into the bearing length of the bullets.
I don't have the patience to do all that for my ammo. If I can get my rifle to shoot between .25 and .5 Moa, I am pretty happy with it, and would rather spend the time improving my marksmanship within those accuracy limits from field type positions, than trying to get better bench rest accuracy.
But every one has their own requirements and preferences for how and what they shoot.
I think many of us (myself included) have difficulty wringing the last little sixteenth of an inch of accuracy out of a really well built rifle. I admit that I'm not a really good bench rest shooter, and I have difficulty getting groups under .25". However, if I give that rifle to someone who IS a better bench rest shooter, they can cut those groups in half. So, often the inherent accuracy is in the rifle, but I just can't achieve it's true potential.
The same precision applies to the ammunition to get rifles to really shoot. Reloading for a super precision rifle is just as important as the rifle. Even the weight down to .1 grains, and the bearing length of each bullet matters as the longer bearing length bullets have more friction inside the bore. Cartridge cases also need to be weighed as heavier cases usually means that the inside of the case has a slightly smaller chamber in which to burn the propellent, resulting in higher pressure...albiet very small.
A world class Palma shooter told me that he spends a great deal of time weighing brass, bullets, measuring bullets for bearing length long before any cases are even primed. Heavy bullets go with light cases, light bullets go with heavy cases...even though he separates cases and bullets into groups differing by .1 grain. Then he gets into the bearing length of the bullets.
I don't have the patience to do all that for my ammo. If I can get my rifle to shoot between .25 and .5 Moa, I am pretty happy with it, and would rather spend the time improving my marksmanship within those accuracy limits from field type positions, than trying to get better bench rest accuracy.
But every one has their own requirements and preferences for how and what they shoot.
I for one tend to find value in Chad's (and people like him) experience. That, as opposed to base insults that have no positive intent, directed toward people like him.
I have no idea where found fault in Chad's response to the OP. This question has been asked and will be asked over and over because it is a good question. And if you want to do the OP the favor of taking a step back and looking at how the varied aspects of precision relate to accuracy, it becomes an expansive answer, one that Chad - #1 took the time to answer, #2 provided context to address accuracy, precision, overall rifle function, and #3, qualified clearly as his basis of knowledge, what was pulled from experience, and what is empirical.
What is your point of your replies in this thread? That you don't see many R700 actions at the countless benchrest matches you've attended? I can live with disagreeing with virtually every point you made in your first two posts, but you're way out of line with what your reply to Chad. Either man up and apologize, or take your whining some place else.
I took no offense to Chad's post and I remember him posting on Benchrest Central about 20 years ago and getting answers from some of the world's finest gunsmiths.
His dude comment was a little snarky and I do realize his builds are geared towards tactical rather than Benchrest so looser tolerances but if the need arose I would use his services.
i use all kinds of 700 actions and some are so old they have been double sleeved long before oversize bolts were ever used. Speedy Gonzales and Mike Bryant guns along with Stan Ware.
i will try and post a link that is many many years old showing how it was done long before oversized bolts took over.
tThe video is only 10 years old but the process is 30 years old. This isn't anything new.
His dude comment was a little snarky and I do realize his builds are geared towards tactical rather than Benchrest so looser tolerances but if the need arose I would use his services.
i use all kinds of 700 actions and some are so old they have been double sleeved long before oversize bolts were ever used. Speedy Gonzales and Mike Bryant guns along with Stan Ware.
i will try and post a link that is many many years old showing how it was done long before oversized bolts took over.
tThe video is only 10 years old but the process is 30 years old. This isn't anything new.
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I for one tend to find value in Chad's (and people like him) experience. That, as opposed to base insults that have no positive intent, directed toward people like him.
I do as well. Out of curiousity How many National Championships have you or your rifles won? The picture shows how my gear shoots how about yours?
I do as well. Out of curiousity How many National Championships have you or your rifles won? The picture shows how my gear shoots how about yours?
Attachments
ooohhhh look, a dick pulling contest.I for one tend to find value in Chad's (and people like him) experience. That, as opposed to base insults that have no positive intent, directed toward people like him.
I do as well. Out of curiousity How many National Championships have you or your rifles won? The picture shows how my gear shoots how about yours?
Threadcutter never had a question for you. He merely called you out for your attempts to start a dick measuring contest with Chad Dixon; something no one here cares about.
Your shooting records don't mean shit here.
Go away
308Pirate
You can't see the forest for the trees. Threadcutter said he likes to know who he is listening to in a post. I showed him.
You are obviously young and don't win many matches and the reason why is shooting requires a little bit of knowledge between your ears.
All I see from you is a fascination with male genitalia.
The title Threadcutter implies he does some gunsmithing so he can post up his guns titles so we can figure out who we are listening to.
Dave Tooley is a known quantity here.
Chad is a known quantity here.
David Tubb is a known quantity.
Never been on the line with anyone named 308Pirate or Threadcutter.
You can't see the forest for the trees. Threadcutter said he likes to know who he is listening to in a post. I showed him.
You are obviously young and don't win many matches and the reason why is shooting requires a little bit of knowledge between your ears.
All I see from you is a fascination with male genitalia.
The title Threadcutter implies he does some gunsmithing so he can post up his guns titles so we can figure out who we are listening to.
Dave Tooley is a known quantity here.
Chad is a known quantity here.
David Tubb is a known quantity.
Never been on the line with anyone named 308Pirate or Threadcutter.
Let me clarify a couple of points;
1. I have never asked you any questions, nor have I ever sought any "answers" from you.
2. Particularly in hindsight, I'm not interested in any of your opinions in the least.
3. I never have, nor would I ever attempt to (mis) represent myself as being even remotely as talented as Tooley, Dixon or Tubb.
4. My issue with you and anyone that behaves as poorly as you is one of courtesy and respect. Chad Dixon comes onto this site and HELPS people. He asks for not only no compensation, but he is also probably taking money out of his own pocket because of potentially not getting a rifle coming in the door at his place of business from the person he helps.
5. I've never met Chad Dixon, never spoken to him either verbally, or via PM or e-mail. However, I have observed his ongoing generosity here on the Hide by trying to help others. He is not likely to ever see any business from me because I do my own work. I admire his work, it is much better than mine, it is superb.
6. I don't do work on my own gear to make people like you happy. I do it to make me happy. I have succeeded in that regard.
7. I don't measure my success by yours or anyone else's failures. Never have, never will.
8. Your boorish behavior discourages generous people like Chad Dixon from helping people in the future, which hurts Hide members. Tooley comes around every once in a while, but I suspect less frequently lately. Can't say as I blame these guys. Who'd want to put their best foot forward trying to help someone, only to have a prick like you shit in their messkit ?
9. You are correct, I have absolutely zero trophies from benchrest matches. Bully for you, you do. Significance ? Never mind, I don't care about your answer.
10. You are confusing shooting abilities and experience with basic, human decency. It appears that you have an abundance of one and a severe shortage of the other.
11. It's unfortunate that your plaque from 2010 didn't come with instructions on how to treat others with respect. Would have done you worlds of good.
12. You are just plain toxic and vitriolic. I don't know anything about how many "trophies" Chad Dixon has ever won, nor do I care. My admiration of him comes from his humanity, not how many trophies are hanging above his fireplace.
I wasn't going to waste any more of my time on this, but curiosity got the better of me. I assume you are this person ?
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...ard-match-in-sacto-controversy-looms.3753303/
It must really suck that some percentage of your contemporaries/competitors have thrown shade on your "victory"..........
There's nothing more of value here for me, like others, I'm out.
1. I have never asked you any questions, nor have I ever sought any "answers" from you.
2. Particularly in hindsight, I'm not interested in any of your opinions in the least.
3. I never have, nor would I ever attempt to (mis) represent myself as being even remotely as talented as Tooley, Dixon or Tubb.
4. My issue with you and anyone that behaves as poorly as you is one of courtesy and respect. Chad Dixon comes onto this site and HELPS people. He asks for not only no compensation, but he is also probably taking money out of his own pocket because of potentially not getting a rifle coming in the door at his place of business from the person he helps.
5. I've never met Chad Dixon, never spoken to him either verbally, or via PM or e-mail. However, I have observed his ongoing generosity here on the Hide by trying to help others. He is not likely to ever see any business from me because I do my own work. I admire his work, it is much better than mine, it is superb.
6. I don't do work on my own gear to make people like you happy. I do it to make me happy. I have succeeded in that regard.
7. I don't measure my success by yours or anyone else's failures. Never have, never will.
8. Your boorish behavior discourages generous people like Chad Dixon from helping people in the future, which hurts Hide members. Tooley comes around every once in a while, but I suspect less frequently lately. Can't say as I blame these guys. Who'd want to put their best foot forward trying to help someone, only to have a prick like you shit in their messkit ?
9. You are correct, I have absolutely zero trophies from benchrest matches. Bully for you, you do. Significance ? Never mind, I don't care about your answer.
10. You are confusing shooting abilities and experience with basic, human decency. It appears that you have an abundance of one and a severe shortage of the other.
11. It's unfortunate that your plaque from 2010 didn't come with instructions on how to treat others with respect. Would have done you worlds of good.
12. You are just plain toxic and vitriolic. I don't know anything about how many "trophies" Chad Dixon has ever won, nor do I care. My admiration of him comes from his humanity, not how many trophies are hanging above his fireplace.
I wasn't going to waste any more of my time on this, but curiosity got the better of me. I assume you are this person ?
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...ard-match-in-sacto-controversy-looms.3753303/
It must really suck that some percentage of your contemporaries/competitors have thrown shade on your "victory"..........
There's nothing more of value here for me, like others, I'm out.
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Threadcutter
Actually a well written post and I respect your response.
I disagree that the 700 is in anyway a common Benchrest action and I have used them in the PAST.
I posted that you won't see many at a Benchrest match ANYMORE.
I base my opinion on going to matches and seeing what is on the line firsthand.
Others here have other opinions.
I don't shoot at every match so I can't see everything.
Your post IMPLIED you liked to see people's credentials to validate there positions.
Sorry you don't like mine but when asked to put up that's what I did.
Be careful of what you ask for.
And I absolutely love the 700 Remington!!!!
Good Luck with your shooting!!!
Actually a well written post and I respect your response.
I disagree that the 700 is in anyway a common Benchrest action and I have used them in the PAST.
I posted that you won't see many at a Benchrest match ANYMORE.
I base my opinion on going to matches and seeing what is on the line firsthand.
Others here have other opinions.
I don't shoot at every match so I can't see everything.
Your post IMPLIED you liked to see people's credentials to validate there positions.
Sorry you don't like mine but when asked to put up that's what I did.
Be careful of what you ask for.
And I absolutely love the 700 Remington!!!!
Good Luck with your shooting!!!
Kudos Lynn
With the advent of all the fine semi and full custom actions now available, it makes less and less sense to blueprint 700s. But, it does continue to happen, agree with you, in smaller numbers. I used to blueprint them, but hope I have seen the last of that. FWIW, one of the most accurate rifles I ever built was a 700 that I blueprinted. Im not confident I could repeat that again, which is why I use semi customs like Bighorn. It seems like all of the semi custom actions are very good and that a person could not buy a bad one if they tried.
Yes, and best of luck to you, wishing you the victories you desire and work hard for
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