• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Phil1

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 3, 2009
465
7
Minot N.D.
U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It: Laurence Kotlikoff

Commentary by Laurence Kotlikoff

Aug. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Let’s get real. The U.S. is bankrupt. Neither spending more nor taxing less will help the country pay its bills.

What it can and must do is radically simplify its tax, health-care, retirement and financial systems, each of which is a complete mess. But this is the good news. It means they can each be redesigned to achieve their legitimate purposes at much lower cost and, in the process, revitalize the economy.

Last month, the International Monetary Fund released its annual review of U.S. economic policy. Its summary contained these bland words about U.S. fiscal policy: “Directors welcomed the authorities’ commitment to fiscal stabilization, but noted that a larger than budgeted adjustment would be required to stabilize debt-to-GDP.”

But delve deeper, and you will find that the IMF has effectively pronounced the U.S. bankrupt. Section 6 of the July 2010 Selected Issues Paper says: “The U.S. fiscal gap associated with today’s federal fiscal policy is huge for plausible discount rates.” It adds that “closing the fiscal gap requires a permanent annual fiscal adjustment equal to about 14 percent of U.S. GDP.”

The fiscal gap is the value today (the present value) of the difference between projected spending (including servicing official debt) and projected revenue in all future years.

Double Our Taxes

To put 14 percent of gross domestic product in perspective, current federal revenue totals 14.9 percent of GDP. So the IMF is saying that closing the U.S. fiscal gap, from the revenue side, requires, roughly speaking, an immediate and permanent doubling of our personal-income, corporate and federal taxes as well as the payroll levy set down in the Federal Insurance Contribution Act.

Such a tax hike would leave the U.S. running a surplus equal to 5 percent of GDP this year, rather than a 9 percent deficit. So the IMF is really saying the U.S. needs to run a huge surplus now and for many years to come to pay for the spending that is scheduled. It’s also saying the longer the country waits to make tough fiscal adjustments, the more painful they will be.

Is the IMF bonkers?

No. It has done its homework. So has the Congressional Budget Office whose Long-Term Budget Outlook, released in June, shows an even larger problem.

‘Unofficial’ Liabilities

Based on the CBO’s data, I calculate a fiscal gap of $202 trillion, which is more than 15 times the official debt. This gargantuan discrepancy between our “official” debt and our actual net indebtedness isn’t surprising. It reflects what economists call the labeling problem. Congress has been very careful over the years to label most of its liabilities “unofficial” to keep them off the books and far in the future.

For example, our Social Security FICA contributions are called taxes and our future Social Security benefits are called transfer payments. The government could equally well have labeled our contributions “loans” and called our future benefits “repayment of these loans less an old age tax,” with the old age tax making up for any difference between the benefits promised and principal plus interest on the contributions.

The fiscal gap isn’t affected by fiscal labeling. It’s the only theoretically correct measure of our long-run fiscal condition because it considers all spending, no matter how labeled, and incorporates long-term and short-term policy.

$4 Trillion Bill

How can the fiscal gap be so enormous?

Simple. We have 78 million baby boomers who, when fully retired, will collect benefits from Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid that, on average, exceed per-capita GDP. The annual costs of these entitlements will total about $4 trillion in today’s dollars. Yes, our economy will be bigger in 20 years, but not big enough to handle this size load year after year.

This is what happens when you run a massive Ponzi scheme for six decades straight, taking ever larger resources from the young and giving them to the old while promising the young their eventual turn at passing the generational buck.

Herb Stein, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under U.S. President Richard Nixon, coined an oft-repeated phrase: “Something that can’t go on, will stop.” True enough. Uncle Sam’s Ponzi scheme will stop. But it will stop too late.

And it will stop in a very nasty manner. The first possibility is massive benefit cuts visited on the baby boomers in retirement. The second is astronomical tax increases that leave the young with little incentive to work and save. And the third is the government simply printing vast quantities of money to cover its bills.

Worse Than Greece

Most likely we will see a combination of all three responses with dramatic increases in poverty, tax, interest rates and consumer prices. This is an awful, downhill road to follow, but it’s the one we are on. And bond traders will kick us miles down our road once they wake up and realize the U.S. is in worse fiscal shape than Greece.

Some doctrinaire Keynesian economists would say any stimulus over the next few years won’t affect our ability to deal with deficits in the long run.

This is wrong as a simple matter of arithmetic. The fiscal gap is the government’s credit-card bill and each year’s 14 percent of GDP is the interest on that bill. If it doesn’t pay this year’s interest, it will be added to the balance.

Demand-siders say forgoing this year’s 14 percent fiscal tightening, and spending even more, will pay for itself, in present value, by expanding the economy and tax revenue.

My reaction? Get real, or go hang out with equally deluded supply-siders. Our country is broke and can no longer afford no- pain, all-gain “solutions.”

(Laurence J. Kotlikoff is a professor of economics at Boston University and author of “Jimmy Stewart Is Dead: Ending the World’s Ongoing Financial Plague with Limited Purpose Banking.” The opinions expressed are his own.)
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601010&sid=aiFjnanrDWVk#
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

A nation's solvency has been, IMHO, as much a matter of opinion as a matter of fact, longtime now...

I say to myself, I prefer to hold the opinion we're solvent..., enough, anyway... I'd better, my entire financial existence depends on the government remaining solvent.

I realize that this could be just as illogical as choosing the Chicken Little scenario. My difficulty is in figuring out how to 'prove' either one.

Greg
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Just wait till the derivatives market blows up in our faces. The Fed is the problem. US debt is their friend and they make billions manipulating our debt. Repeal the Federal Reserve Act and give the power back to the treasury dept.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

I would take double taxes. I'm not crazy here. The tax rates at this moment are near historical lows. People should look at the tax rates following WWII if you question it. We payed down that debt with quickness and are on the direct opposite trend right now. I believe there should be a balanced budget provision (you have to balance it each year). You can't have something for nothing...well, not forever.

The government could do away with social security and not pay me back a dime and I wouldn't care to much. I'm young and would rather have the money in an account gaining interest. For those that have payed into it for a lifetime, they deserve a certain amount, but social security was not designed for everyone when it was conceived.

There are a ton of things that could be done to right our economic situation, but special interest groups muddy the waters when it comes down to it.

I agree wholeheartedly with that article. They better figure it out soon.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

I understand the viewpoints. I'm retired, and circumstances have made me dependent on SSD. Much of that goes to pay down medical debt. I've only recently been able to enroll in Medicare, my considerable medical coverage was exhausted by two bouts with lymphoma, emergency open heart surgery, and surgical complications. Meawhile my wife spent several months in a very serious hospitalization. Most of that was not eligible for any kind of coverage. Uncovered balances approached seven figures.

Medicaid paydowns brought the balances into the realm of possibility, but we still have years left in the payment plans.

So we see the world as opposite sides of a common coin.

Greg
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Minordamage: _tocriticalareaofthebrain


Sorry but WHO are you gonna tax there is basically no middle class left, the big boys won't allow to be taxed as they own your government or will move their cash somewhere else and who is LEFT??? Coyotes, groundhogs, deer and trees???

Read some serious guys commenting on economy and then (if not to much damage...) rethink the whole thing...

To get you started:

www.goldprice.org
www.kitcomm.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7
http://www.martinarmstrong.org/economic_projections.htm
www.bloomberg.com to get a few charts...

you might find out that the future aint so rosy and nice and better go online and click away few bucks to transform them to food/water/ammo...
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

I can dig that. I just don't have any other options. I had them once, but illness wiped it all out.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

First off, I am not a Kalifornian. The military put me out here.

Secondly, if you are not from this country and obviously have no clue what you are talking about...take the nonsense elsewhere. The reason only 63% of the population paid taxes is due to many of the tax breaks. In essence, more than 63% paid taxes, but they got all of it back in their return.

Read Here

Greg, my reference to social security has nothing to do with you (I understand SSD). Again, I stated it is in place for a reason, but it was never meant to aid people like it does today. It was really in place to encourage old timers to retire and make way for the younger generation. When it was instituted, many people did not make it to the age to collect social security wages. That is why they are again considering raising the age for benefits to 70. I agree that it would at very least relieve some of the burden until they can unscrew that system.

Just so everyone can understand...I am including a link to historical marginal tax brackets. You need to take into account the far right line which is the cut off for the highest marginal rate. Look at the years following WWII. Seriously, over 90% for that top bracket. Now the top only gets taxed at 35%. For most of us, we are going to see an average right around 18%.

1946 rates:

k4xz5j.jpg


2010 rates

24pxi5j.jpg


Tax Brackets 1913-2010

Sorry, but if people really want to bitch about taxes in this economic state, you should go talk with your Grandparents. Lastly, I have found that a lot of people believe your entire gross for the year gets taxed at the percentage of the highest bracket you fall into. I can't believe it, but its true. Just in case anyone is in that boat, it gets taxed in increments. The first 16,749.99 gets taxed at 10%. Government gets 1675.99 and you keep 15,075.01. The next 51,250 gets taxed at 15 and so on.

Time to suck it up and resurrect this country. Part of it is going to be raising taxes...a whole other part is going to be revamping programs and controlling spending. Many people need to do some actual research instead of taking what is spoon fed to them as gospel. That goes for what I put here as well. Go do your own research and decide for yourself. I try to give as much evidence in hard numbers as I can but many people enjoy living in denial of the situation at hand.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

There isn't enough time to explain to you how wrong you are if you believe doubling taxes will solve any of our problems. I don't know what's more disappointing, your grasp of economics or the attitude that your ignorance is defendable.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Josh I would allow the doubling of my taxes (to especially help my children have a decent future0 but I don't trust our govenment to put the money into paying down the debt. I have lost complete faith in our government to have fiscal discipline.
I personally like the flat tax proposal.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Well, you actually need to read the post. I noted it was a stop gap measure to bring the deficit spending back closer to GDP. I even used the phrase "part of it is taxes". It is impossible to get into all the other stuff without hours to type. Social programs, pork, whatever you like. I'm really not insulted by your...insults. I do grasp economics well. There is nothing ignorant about it. I'm not saying that taxes are the end all be all. It is a measure to alleviate some strain. Hell, the interest on the debt is going to outpace GDP if we don't get a handle on it.

I would be interested in numbers, figures, and reasoning to back up your claim that taxes will do nothing to help. Just in case you missed it, I addressed social security to a point and glossed over a couple others. The people who wrote the original article understand the implications of continuing down the path we are on. I am sure they would be more than happy to quickly refute, with evidence, you claims that taxation will do nothing. Apparently, you are neither an economic nor history scholar.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Well me being outsider and not being able to comment and stuff like that i can respond in the same manner: Sometimes it's useful to put your head out of your ass, you will see more and brighter...



PS: If you'd care to experience more taxes and social state feel free to emigrate to EU and you can maybe reply to this thread in a few "fruitful" years after experiencing first hand "double taxes"...
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Garrett,

Ok. I have no problem with that either. This article addressed closing the deficit spending gap. It harped on taxes, so I chatted about them and provided figures. Do I think taxes will save the day? No way. I totally agree tons of programs as well as certain people in November should be revamped. We're already in the whole...we have to figure out a way to get back out. It's no longer an if...its a when.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well me being outsider and not being able to comment and stuff like that i can respond in the same manner: Sometimes it's useful to put your head out of your ass, you will see more and brighter...



PS: If you'd care to experience more taxes and social state feel free to emigrate to EU and you can maybe reply to this thread in a few "fruitful" years after experiencing first hand "double taxes"... </div></div>

I'm going to assume reading comprehension in English is a touch lacking. The last thing I want is for the US to gain more social programs. I firmly believe you need to work for what you have. Right now, people do not have the same view point. The last thing I want is a social society. However, we need to get the debt under control. Part of that is cutting social programs and the other part is having the surplus to pay off the debt. Its gotta come from somewhere. What you are saying has nothing to do with anything I have stated. However, having a Slovenian tell me to pull my head out of my ass is laughable.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Your solutions are patching a bullet wound with a bandaid and we disagree on a much more basic level than we'll ever be able to explore or address in this thread. The political nature of our disagreement would violate the terms of the forum so I choose not to invest the time it would take to disagree with you in detail only to have the thread locked. Trying to work within a fatally flawed system is folly at best.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

ah.....doubling taxes....spoken from someone who's never made a payroll.....wanker.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Immorteq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your solutions are patching a bullet wound with a bandaid</div></div>

Yes it is. I said that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Immorteq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trying to work within a fatally flawed system is folly at best. </div></div>

So, help change it. That was my November reference.

I addressed the topic article. I too don't have the time nor energy to address all the things necessary for success. And, of course, it would turn political. Please feel free to PM with a solution that does not include taxation increases. I would genuinely be up to chatting man to man about your ideas that we can't discuss here.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ah.....doubling taxes....spoken from someone who's never made a payroll.....wanker. </div></div>

Well said.
grin.gif
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Nothing will change until we repeal the Federal Reserve Act and take our political process back from the rich.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well me being outsider and not being able to comment and stuff like that i can respond in the same manner: Sometimes it's useful to put your head out of your ass, you will see more and brighter...



PS: If you'd care to experience more taxes and social state feel free to emigrate to EU and you can maybe reply to this thread in a few "fruitful" years after experiencing first hand "double taxes"... </div></div>

I'm going to assume reading comprehension in English is a touch lacking. The last thing I want is for the US to gain more social programs. I firmly believe you need to work for what you have. Right now, people do not have the same view point. The last thing I want is a social society. However, we need to get the debt under control. Part of that is cutting social programs and the other part is having the surplus to pay off the debt. Its gotta come from somewhere. What you are saying has nothing to do with anything I have stated. However, having a Slovenian tell me to pull my head out of my ass is laughable.

Josh </div></div>

But Minor you're comparing to a time when people did not even make close to the amount of money people made today. Regardless of that fact most of that money back then was for infrastructure that was needed etc. Nowadays we are wasting money on beauracracy (sp) and bull crap. Think about all the money that is wasted on illegals, on welfare programs and inefficiencies etc. Our country is becoming inefficient and that is the biggest problem. Look at the Postal Service. Why are they still operating??? UPS and Fedex are successful and make good money but yet we still have the government running an inefficient and costly program. The government should not be subsidizing a mail carrier. Leave things like that to companies that can run companies efficiently.

What happened to you work hard and you got what you deserved? But now you have people that sit on their fat asses and collect checks from the government, you have money wasted on beauracracy (sp). Our government over the years has gotten inefficient and weak. They want to hand out everything to everyone even if they don't put into the system. You pay into the system and you get some of that back. You don't? Tough shit you don't get anything back. We need some people in government that have some common sense and are not just in things to get votes...that's the only thing that will get this country striaght again. That or things continue down this path and everything implodes and poeple finally realize before it's too late that they screwed up. In our new civilization we have reversed Darwinism. The strong survive and the weak and stupid don't!
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Anthony,

We agree. Once Immorteq and I chatted via PM we realized we were much closer to being on the same wavelength than earlier. I was attempting to stay as far away from the political side as I could. Social security, medicare, the FED, and other "give aways" are poisoning the society and will not allow for us to ever get our heads back above water if something isn't done. I'm going to keep hoping for a miracle. I was simply addressing the issue of taxes in the original article. There is a lot more to be addressed and corrected, but it begins to tread an even finer line on this forum. I never said taxes were THE fix. Any tax hike should not be permanent.

We have to eliminate deficit spending first and then attempt to pay off our rising national debt second. That stuff gains interest, so just balancing the budget through revamping social programs is not enough. It's a broken system through and through and it needs to be fixed. However, I do believe you will see a tax increase. Those that seek no tax increases are generally fooling themselves in this current state of affairs. they can always go back down, but we have some serious fiscal irresponsibility on our hands.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Immorteq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing will change until we repeal the Federal Reserve Act and take our political process back from the rich. </div></div>

Deleted....apologizes didn't intend it to be political or inflammatory
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Anthony,

We are having a good discussion here, but this last post is very political and can cause the thread the get shut down and get you possibly a temporary vacation from the site. Please revise it and take out the inflammatory stuff.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anthony,

We agree. Once Immorteq and I chatted via PM we realized we were much closer to being on the same wavelength than earlier. I was attempting to stay as far away from the political side as I could. Social security, medicare, the FED, and other "give aways" are poisoning the society and will not allow for us to ever get our heads back above water if something isn't done. I'm going to keep hoping for a miracle. I was simply addressing the issue of taxes in the original article. There is a lot more to be addressed and corrected, but it begins to tread an even finer line on this forum. I never said taxes were THE fix. Any tax hike should not be permanent.

We have to eliminate deficit spending first and then attempt to pay off our rising national debt second. That stuff gains interest, so just balancing the budget through revamping social programs is not enough. It's a broken system through and through and it needs to be fixed. However, I do believe you will see a tax increase. Those that seek no tax increases are generally fooling themselves in this current state of affairs. they can always go back down, but we have some serious fiscal irresponsibility on our hands.

Josh </div></div>

My problem is that only a small portion of citizens pay taxes. For instance take someone who busted their ass in college and goes on to make $100k a year. he make sacrifices and busted his butt and paid a lot of money to make it where he is currently. At the end of the year (say he has no kids or anything and he is married) he actually ends up paying $2k in addition to the say $18k or so he has already paid in taxes thoughout the year for a total of $20k. Now you have a person who goofs off in high school doesn't care and doesn't go to college, doesn't bust his ass. He goes into the work force and makes say $28k. At the end of the year he has paid say $5k in taxes and has been popping out kids that he can't even afford (say 3). At the end of tehe year he gets a check back from the government for more than he paid in taxes. Now how is that right? You have now penalized a guy that is busting his arse and rewarded a person that is irresponsible. That is another major issue I have with taxes. I think the government should go to a flat tax rate and have that be the end of it. Everyone pays their fair share regardless of who you are and how much money you make. As it is now you have like the middle 50% of taxpayer paing something like 70% of the taxes in this country which is ridiculous and it will result in destroying the middle class. The poor will stay poor (for the most part), the middle class will be taxed til they are poor and the rich tend to have money (or they hide it) and stay rich.

And yes you are definitely correct in that we do agree we have major fiscal irresponsibility on our hands. And I have no doubt that you are right about a tax increase comming.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Read the first link in my second post. Last year only 63% paid any taxes after refunds. I agree, ridiculous.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Raising taxes is not the solution, reducing the size of government and entitlements is the solution. Doubling taxes as was proposed above is absurd and will lead to a taxpayer revolution IMHO. You could cut fully 1/2 of the people out of federal, state, and in most cases local government and would not even notice a difference in the level of services you receive provided government workers were held to the same level of productivity required of the private sector. This excludes in general local school teachers and especially the military, which is already overextended and cut to lower than sustainable levels and will be cut even more to fund social programs. Government work is just another form of welfare, only it pays far better. By definition it is 'burden', a term we used in industry to denote any activity that did not produce something. But for those of you who think doubling taxes is the answer, there is nothing stopping you from doing that currently, you can always give more to the government if you feel that strongly about it.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Read the first link in my second post. Last year only 47% paid any taxes after refunds. I agree, ridiculous.

Josh </div></div>

Yup my father opened a tax business so that he had something to do in retirement and earn a few bucks. After the tax season ended he told me he was in shock LOL. I just think a flat tax is the best route. It's fair and equitable amongst all citizens. I'm curious as to the elections over the next few years and see how it is handled becuase it is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Without getting polutical, recent news and projections make it clear that nobody in, or likely to be in soon, our government is going to be the friend of anyone who actually pays taxes anytime soon.

Just so's you know...

Greg
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

I'm with Bushmaster7, only thing is; Govt. employees= unions, unions =$$ and more importantly votes. There is a damn slim chance of cutting govt. employee numbers unless the purse strings are controlled by a lot more responsible people.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ah.....doubling taxes....spoken from someone who's never made a payroll.....wanker. </div></div>

Exactly, I get so sick and fed up with idiots claiming that we should do the right thing and raise taxes hugely (sometimes "for the sake of our children"). The tax rates are already way too high. Hiking taxes is like eating your seed corn, pretty soon the economy runs out of money because the government is taking it all.

No matter how high you raise taxes it will never ever work. Look at European countries with 50% income taxes and 20% sales tax on top of that, they are still going broke.

Any talk of needing to balance the budget is just plain fraud until the whole crop of politicans stop spending an extra Trillion here and Trillion there. Just go see how much the "Anointed One" has done in deficit spending.

Go ahead and double the tax rates, and very shortly the USA will look exactly like Greece or Spain where the only jobs are government jobs or jobs under the table for cash. Any body with real money will just pickup and move to China and many others will simply just put Atlas Shrugged into practice.

You cannot have a smaller group of hard workers shouldering the burden of paying for an ever increasing population that lives on free money from the government, spurred on by politicians who make grander promises about taking money from the workers to give out ever increasing goodies to their support base who don't work or don't pay taxes. Nor can you survive for long making promises of huge benefit and retirement packages to government/union workers where the value of the retirement payout exceeds the amount of individual contribution to that package.

Politicians hate the idea of a flat tax because it is the only fair and honest way to go & doing so would eliminate them being able to play class warfare and envy off to the populace to hide their own evil deeds. You want to make taxes fair, then everybody from $1 pays the same rate, no exceptions, no deductions. Then when the politicians say oh we need to raise taxes, instead of "sure raise taxes all you want, we don't pay them anyways" coming from 60% of the country, you'll get 100% of the country saying "how about we cut government spending"

Social spending / Benefit costs is what is bankrupting the entire western world, but nobody will stop it because all the politicans care about is getting elected the next time and most people are happy to vote for liars that promise them eternal good times on other people's money.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ah.....doubling taxes....spoken from someone who's never made a payroll.....wanker.</div></div>

ex-ZACHARY!

I guaran-fucking-tee minor hasn't ever been self-employed either: what a difference it makes when you have to pay your taxes out of your own pocket, rather than having it conveniently withheld and thus shielded from view.

The issue is widespread SLOTH, WASTE, MISMANAGEMENT, CORRUPTION and GREED, not insufficient taxation: find a way to double taxes and they'll find a way to piss it away as fast as it comes in. Under the current system, it'll never see the coffers of the Treasury Dept.

Minor, you want to pay double taxes, you go ahead and just send it in to the IRS. They'll take it. BUT LEAVE THE REST OF US OUT OF IT. I make much better use of my money than the government does.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is widespread SLOTH, WASTE, MISMANAGEMENT, CORRUPTION and GREED, not insufficient taxation: find a way to double taxes and they'll find a way to piss it away as fast as it comes in. Under the current system, it'll never see the coffers of the Treasury Dept.</div></div>

Yep. Agree.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Minor, you want to pay double taxes, you go ahead and just send it in to the IRS. They'll take it. BUT LEAVE THE REST OF US OUT OF IT. I make much better use of my money than the government does. </div></div>

So do I, but I was just stating that it is going to come down to an increase in taxes (my opinion won't matter) along with hopefully what amounts to a reform of all the social programs. Just because you have been self employed doesn't make you special. It would be nice if we could go along at the same taxation as we currently have. However, even if all social programs are reformed right now, we are going to need some way to pay ourselves out of all the foreign debt we have so prudently accrued.

I at no point said I agreed with the prediction, but I'll suck it up if it comes down to it to save the economy. I'm not holding out too much hope, but a defeatist attitude is the wrong way to go about it. I'd love to keep my money...good luck with that happening.

Just as an aside...I am still proud to serve in the armed forces that defend the type of nonsense that rides the working into the ground. I didn't get all my taxes back last year. Everyone here talks a big talk, but I am a realist when it comes to this. We hear a lot of "they can have my guns when they pry them from my dead fingers". Yeah...if it ever goes down PM me if you intend to follow through. i'll look for you in the papers.

That said, although I don't agree with what is happening now, nor what may be coming, I am prepared to sacrifice some of my additional income in the HOPES that the country will right itself. Learn to read...almost everyone has taken what I said out of context. I think the situation is just as jacked up as anyone else, but I am not as naive to think the extreme measures that will be taken to fight it. For all of you calling for a revolution...start one.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Firstly you couldn't find Slovenia on a map even if you tried it...(hell even i can't find it unless ratio is big enough...)

Due to your age a lot can be forgiven however plain old stupidity CANT... Your logic is totally wrong as i "sense" what you're thinking and your flaw of thinking is in assumption that government spending (all the pol. bullcrap, war bullcrap and inefficiency bullcrap, financial oligarchs bullcrap etc...) WHICH IS the cause of everything can be fixed. Hypothetically IF YOU fix those bullcrap parts there IS NO need to raise taxes OR to even have them at present levels, so your entire argument is also bullcrap. Now going about fixing bullcrap - a famous fictional Spaniard Sancho Panza (no he is not your local mexico grocery packer...go google if unknown) tried and maybe more to your liking and level of education Tom Cruise made a series of the movies (titles only...)...

As someone before me noted, we here in Europe know pretty well what taxes mean as from entire income (for middle class BY YOUR standards) around 60% goes to the state (not counting 20% VAT on EVERYTHING) and services we get...won't go there as its Friday and i'd like to enjoy my weekend... So before you go running around screaming stuff get your shit in order and priorities straight right now your thinking is something in the line of emptying a Pacific ocean with a bucket of water and transferring it by foot to Atlantic ocean...

To be frank as i lived in socialism in Yugoslavia and now capitalism. For majority living back then was FAR FAR better than it is now and services by the state were by several factors better. For me personally life is better now so you should take my opinion on this matter even more seriously as many people here are way worse then ever (same would go for most ex commie states). Only notable working capitalism (with high taxes) states are Scandinavian and even there (by comments from some friends) life is slowly getting to a toilet especially compared to few years/decades ago...
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hypothetically IF YOU fix those bullcrap parts there IS NO need to raise taxes OR to even have them at present levels</div></div>

Sharac,

I had to gloss over the rest of your post (I read it.) Let me address the comment above along with a couple others and I'll be done with this thread.

1. I DO believe we could fix those programs that are dragging the economy into the toilet if we really applied enough pressure. This isn't Europe and that DOES make a difference.

2. Even if we fixed the programs, in our current state, we would be hard pressed to run a surplus to the point that we could pay off the debt. Ultimately, if nothing is done, the interest on the debt will near and then exceed GDP levels and it won't be recoverable. That's simple math. If we really want to fix it without raising taxes you need to cut damn near all of those programs tomorrow.

3. I never said I WANTED to be taxed twice what I am now. I noted that I would do it to see the country stay afloat if that is what it took.

4. I have seen much of the world (and I happen to know where Slovenia is)...It always makes me thankful for the country I live in.

5. You addressed my age. You do not have to be old and gray to understand the economy, budget, and markets. That's what 18 year olds get degrees for (Not saying they know everything).

6. My comments have been taken out of context multiple times.

7. Your taxes suck. You said it yourself. Even if ours doubled they wouldn't reach your levels. 60%? Damn...Our highest bracket is 35%.

8. You just flat out don't know me. You also don't have a firm grasp on the fact that my nation has been attempting to keep the country from going the way of Europe.

9. You clearly don't understand the corner we have backed ourselves into. If we were forecasting the future based on zero debt I would agree with many things you point out. However, we have to find a way to pay off the debt (principle AND interest). If any country holding US debt ever asks for it we will be in a world of hurt.

10. All in all, it sucks that your nor my leadership has a grasp on fiscal responsibility. A balanced budget would be a step in the right direction. We'll see.

11. Lastly, you note that I am "totally wrong" because I continue to hold out hope that these issues can be fixed. I'm not just going to roll over and die and watch this great country go in the tank. I would like my children to enjoy it and theirs as well. Just in case you missed it...we've fixed it before. I hope we just might pull it off again.

At the very least, if you feel compelled to respond, let's do it a bit more tactfully (I'll do better myself). I am all about talking with you, and I generally like most people, but you are getting pretty riled up over all of this. If we are hinging on the fact that you don't believe that we can fix our mess the we do fundamentally disagree.

Josh
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Wow. My faith in humanity is restored!I agree the system is broke, but I do not feel that those in power will fix it, and those that would, will never be in power. Except by revolution. As for the taking of guns from cold dead fingers, Lexington and concord were ball and powder storage for the colonies. What does that tell ya? Watch the papers, it took them yrs to catch the barefoot bandit and he wasnt government trained in field craft and marksmanship.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

System = people

If people are broken the system is as well and as history teaches us when system
smile.gif
gets too broken it resets itself. Downside to the reset is the major gore and carnage upside is that we usually learn from it (collective memory)... There are probably few main types of (ordinary) people atm, those who are aware of what is coming (sense it, know it, guess it, observe it from history, whatever) and are preparing, optimistic souls (to put it mildly as to not offend you) which delude themselves that things can somehow be fixed and even more - are worth fixing and the sheeple who just live by the day (partying, drugging, working, whatever...) not thinking a second about tommorow.

Bottom line (and with that i'll end this discussion from my side) we will soon all be in a world of shit...
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

I think that the state of our government's finances is a symptom, rather than a cause, of what's actually wrong in the USA.

It's been quite some time since I've felt that addressing any single facet, like the economy, is likely to result in a return to sanity and stability.

The things that brought the problems to the fore are only marginally a matter of economics, and more a matter of ethics, morals, and a sophisticated practice of bending the sytem to extract personal and factional power.

The ethics issue is probably the most egregious.

Ethical behavior requires the individual to be accountable to some form or other of authority. In the case of goverments, that should be the electorate, but that also assumes the majority vote. That majority vote is probably mythical, and probably has been so for a long time now. Those who do vote are generaly those who can be swayed by slick, commercialized and scientifically tweaked psychological campaigning. Once the candidates and incumbents assimiliate the associated realities, they become essentially unaccountable.

The victim (the original governing principles) is unrecognizable beneath the accumulation of bandaids. All those bandaids are really doing us making the death of a thousand cuts less obvious, and strangling the victim in the process, as a side issue. Rather like a python's prey, the prey is dead long before it's actually swallowed.

Maybe it'd be better to let that prey slip away, stomp that python flat once and for all, and start fresh. Never trust a python, never take your eyes off it, and understand, once they get to a certain size, if they get a wrap on you, you need help no matter how strong you are or you're a'goner.

Greg
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

With the course we're on we better teach our children and grandchildren to speak Chinese, they own us.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

I seriously doubt the children would listen. They've been conditioned not to.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

the us and europe will, if the current deficite spending will be continued, go down the toilet.
goverments will never stop spending. people will never elect someone who charges them high taxes.
we will all get "taxed" by infaltion once our dept-construct fuled by the banking system of the world collapses.

be sure to have a rifle for each family member and enough ammo and preferrably some farmland for when you need a cartrunk full of 20 dollar bills to get a decent meal.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

The Chinese might own us, but its a matter of how are they going to collect? How exactly are they going to reposes America? There are way to many gun owners looking forward to that day.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

"U.S. Concerns

Concern the U.S. economy is faltering was underscored by the Federal Reserve on Aug. 10. Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said the central bank will reinvest principal payments on its mortgage holdings into Treasury notes to prevent money from being drained out of the financial system, its first expansion of measures to spur growth in more than a year.

“The pace of economic recovery is likely to be more modest in the near term than had been anticipated,” the Federal Open Market Committee said in a statement after meeting in Washington. “The Committee will keep constant the Federal Reserve’s holdings of securities at their current level.”

Asian central banks holding some 60 percent of the world’s foreign-exchange reserves are turning away from the dollar. Concerned about weakening U.S. growth and the Treasury’s record borrowing, they are switching toward euro assets to safeguard reserves, driving gains in the 16-nation currency. South Korea, Malaysia and India reduced their holdings of Treasuries, U.S. government data show"
From:
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601010&sid=av38C1zY8vdI

Read falling US dollar (not necessarily a bad thing as its good for US exports).And perhaps higher interest rates. As US monetary demands= higher rates to attract lenders.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The government could do away with social security and not pay me back a dime and I wouldn't care to much. Josh </div></div>

But those of us that are in our mid to late 40's have a HUGE amount invested in it - right now if I'm disabled I draw $2000, if I wait till I'm 67 I draw $2800.

I've paid my ass off into SS - and it's gonna suck that we'll probably get kicked back to 72 .

Doubling taxes doesn't make sense if people do not understand it but if you did it for a year or two then you can be ASSURED that nobody will be out spending, and with no spending you have no GDP.


GW did the right thing, cut taxes and get MORE people spending a LITTLE vs a few spending a lot.

The problem is that tax decreases can only be short term ammo, it was used long term and we all got used to it.

I have seen what is coming in January for your 1040 tax return and it's not pretty...my $4500 tax returns will be down to $2200 max..

I also changed my W4 to get away from giving the government a loan - a LOT of people have since 2008. I should break just slight on the positive side this year.


14% of GDP - holy shit.

We spend 3% (THREE) on DOD/Military on average....


Speaking of, it's because of the policy at the Pentagon to cut back spending that they are outright doing away with MANY contractors. I was a contractor.

I go in for my outbrief at 1500 today. Then I go on sabbatical for 99 weeks.
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

Owe the bank a hundred thousand dollars, and the bank owns you.

Owe the bank a hundred trillion dollars, and you own the bank.

That's what the Arabs found out, and what China's also finding out.

If the US reneged, they'd both go under. Personally, I think that makes us stronger, rather than weaker. We'd get stronger without the debt, and they'd get weaker without collecting it.

We wouldn't even have to renege, just declare a moratorium on debt repayment beyond our own borders. Tell 'em all to go screw themselve, with interest...

I know that's not realistic. But look around, what <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> realistic these days? Less and less as the days go by...

It'd be nothing new, this government has been forgiving foreign indebtedness for decades. Time for some tit for tat, I say; and a long time overdue, too...

If you want to see where we're headed, look at Russia. They've been there for going on several decades, and they aren't coming back anytime soon. They blew their wad on military expenditures. We blew ours on social expenditures, and trying to make 'equal' mean identically and universally screwed.

I believe there will come a time when everyone looks around and gets it. I don't think anything useful or meaningful can happen until they do. IMHO, the system has to crash before that. To me, the only question is whether we help hasten the crash, or prolong the agony by trying to postpone/prevent it. Actually, I think we passed the tipover point some time back, and preventing it is probably impossible now.

I was a subcontractor and payed tons into the SS system. Then the illnesses pretty much wiped out everything else I had tried to put away, Now, I have SSD and not a lot else. Anyone who wants to take that away is no friend of mine.

Greg
 
Re: U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don’t Even Know It

August 19, 2010
2010 Budget Deficit At $1.342 Trillion: Source
By REUTERS

Filed at 10:07 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The budget deficit will hit $1.342 trillion this year, the Congressional Budget Office forecast on Thursday, down slightly from its March projection of $1.368 trillion, according to a government source.

CBO, the Congress' nonpartisan budget analyst, also forecast a $1.066 trillion deficit for fiscal year 2011, which begins on October 1, up slightly from the March estimate of $996 billion.

The numbers show that without significant changes in U.S. tax and spending laws, Washington will struggle to dig its way out of a deficit hole that is expected to play a major role in this year's Nov 2 midterm congressional elections as American anxiety about the economy grows.

That anxiety could punish President Barack Obama's Democrats at the polls given the perceptions big deficits resulting from big government spending and high unemployment.

The CBO is due to formally release the budget figures later on Thursday morning.

The CBO's budget and economic outlook is designed to give lawmakers the most up to date nonpartisan assessment of U.S. economic health and provide the latest projections on deficits that began in 2002 under Bush and then skyrocketed in 2009 during recession and stimulus spending under Obama.

Members of Congress will rely on the CBO numbers as they decide how to tackle the yawning budget gap.

The U.S. budget deficit last year was a record $1.413 trillion, 9.9 percent of gross domestic product.

In fiscal year 2012, the CBO projected a $665 billion deficit, that would then fall to $525 billion the following year, the source said.

The expiration of tax cuts enacted by former President George W. Bush at the end of this year is reflected in the CBO's 2011 and 2012 numbers although Obama says he wants to maintain some of the reductions.

In financial markets, U.S. government debt prices have risen and yields, which move in the opposite direction, have fallen despite the deficits. The benchmark 10-year Treasury note yield fell to a 17-month low of 2.56 percent this week.

However, some warn Treasury yields could rise sharply if investors lose confidence in Washington's ability to rein in the deficit.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/08/1...ref=global-home