Union upset over Keystone Pipeline cancellation

[BullGear]

The issue with solar and the main reason I haven't converted to it, is that the batteries has a terminal lifespan (as short as 5 years), as well as the solar panels. If we are all going to be forced to solar, then we will basically be rebuilding our energy source ever 8 years for the batteries and every 20 years for the panels. Then all the electronics will also need to be replaced due to the upgrades of the rest of the system.

Solar isn't cost effective yet. I priced a whole house solar panel system last year. The cost was $55k to $60k and that was without batteries. That included material and labor costs.

 

[AngryKoala]

As I understand it, fossil fuels are stored energy, like nuclear and hydro.

The result is consistant release of energy with the ability to retain any unneeded energy.

Wind and solar are sporadic, and unable to store a surplus of energy until its needed. Is that still correct?

Yes that is correct but the real issue with wind and solar are the amount needed to replicate the energy output derived from petroleum. This also doesn't take into account the inefficiencies of both wind and solar, maintenance program issues and waste created (turbine blades).

Wind and solar as a supplement to fossil fuels is a good idea but as a complete replacement....they are not. This is also only looking at energy. The amount of materials we make from petroleum and its derivatives is actually quite impressive.

I honestly just laugh when people suggest total stoppage of the petroleum industry. The ignorance of that statement. You would have an immediate shutdown of the world economy. Kind of interesting to think about the chaos that would occur after such an event.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I live the West. More importantly, I live in the US, and yeah, I want an environment worth having. Fuck fossil fuel, it's literally dead and I don't want to die with it. Holding on to legacy tech or operations for the sake of jobs is just poor management. Does it hurt? Sure. Have been where these guys might be finding themselves soon, sure. Did I figure a way out and do better. Yes. Can they? Up to them.

Viva la individual.

Cool. Find me a more energy dense fuel and keep all of the jobs in the west while doing it. Also, show me those clouds of smog and pollution you’re oh so worried about. Haven’t seen any of them in Wyoming.

 

[LeftyJason]

I live the West. More importantly, I live in the US, and yeah, I want an environment worth having. Fuck fossil fuel, it's literally dead and I don't want to die with it. Holding on to legacy tech or operations for the sake of jobs is just poor management. Does it hurt? Sure. Have been where these guys might be finding themselves soon, sure. Did I figure a way out and do better. Yes. Can they? Up to them.

Viva la individual.

What's your opinion on nuclear power plants?

 

[My_GPR>ME]

What a crock. You sound like a socialist.


All the people that have to pay taxes / buy electric/ whatever project you do / have to work harder to pay for your non market wages extorted from the public.

So your wife can stay home while everyone else has to work harder to pay for another parasite

You must be a special kind of stupid. Its capitalism in its purest form. If you have read all my posts you would know I dont work government paid jobs. I work for a company that supplies equipment and operators for any and all customers. It's a free market and the customers can easily go down the road to the non union company to use them....... But here I am employed at your supposed non market wages. Your argument has some validity in respects to some unions, just not mine. So your little tantrum of an argument is void of anything worthy of reading. Also for your information I would consider parasite as someone sitting at home taking welfare and child support from their baby daddys. My wife stays home raises and teaches my children. I dont rely on the government to teach them but I'm sure you do. So here I am paying taxes to allow your children access to public education. It seems as though that it's likely you are more of a leech to the system than I am.

 

[theLBC]

You must be a special kind of stupid. Its capitalism in its purest form. If you have read all my posts you would know I dont work government paid jobs. I work for a company that supplies equipment and operators for any and all customers. It's a free market and the customers can easily go down the road to the non union company to use them....... But here I am employed at your supposed non market wages. Your argument has some validity in respects to some unions, just not mine. So your little tantrum of an argument is void of anything worthy of reading. Also for your information I would consider parasite as someone sitting at home taking welfare and child support from their baby daddys. My wife stays home raises and teaches my children. I dont rely on the government to teach them but I'm sure you do. So here I am paying taxes to allow your children access to public education. It seems as though that it's likely you are more of a leech to the system than I am.

i got nothing against folks making as much as they can...and i don;t know if that is what you meant, but "unions" are not a component of capitalism except that they reinforce the capitalist class system, separating themselves (as you say) from the fucking poors (as we are fond of saying).

no, the only tool for bargaining that unions have is that they can leave the employer in a lurch, and hurt them financially or otherwise.
i am not sure how that is "capitalism" but of course it is not my job or right to define that for you.

 

[obk]

Seems a consistent trend in this thread is the idea that 'x' was attempted, and it had good ideas in there maybe, but it was ultimately unsuccessful due to various forms of institutional corruption so lets go back to the old ways and demonize whatever the thing we tried was.

An energy economy that degrades the environment less than our current setup is generally desirable.

Workplaces where workers are to some degree in control of how things get done are generally desirable.

I know not everybody is going to be on board with that, but those seem like two ideas most folks can get along with in the abstract. Once it gets to implementation though? All bets are off and we've all got examples of some well intentioned thing going off the rails. There's probably some good discussion to have about how we might still do the thing without fucking it all up for everyone, but some of the reflexes folks have on these topics make that harder than it probably needs to be.

 

[theLBC]

Seems a consistent trend in this thread is the idea that 'x' was attempted, and it had good ideas in there maybe, but it was ultimately unsuccessful due to various forms of institutional corruption so lets go back to the old ways and demonize whatever the thing we tried was.

An energy economy that degrades the environment less than our current setup is generally desirable.

Workplaces where workers are to some degree in control of how things get done are generally desirable.

I know not everybody is going to be on board with that, but those seem like two ideas most folks can get along with in the abstract. Once it gets to implementation though? All bets are off and we've all got examples of some well intentioned thing going off the rails. There's probably some good discussion to have about how we might still do the thing without fucking it all up for everyone, but some of the reflexes folks have on these topics make that harder than it probably needs to be.

true that. i don't think people dispute the original value of unions, but like religion, all unions are flawed because all men are flawed.

 

[candyx]

Not to worry for the Coal Miners will be in the same boat very soon, my momma said that fossil fuels is the devil.

 

[theLBC]

two of the teachers in my family switched to non-union private schools.
they don't make as much, but their kids can go to the schools tuition free, so that makes up for it and the kids don't get indoctrinated.

 

[obk]

true that. i don't think people dispute the original value of unions, but like religion, all unions are flawed because all men are flawed.

Yup. But I don't think the flaw is as big of a deal in younger systems for the most part, at least you can probably minimize the harm more than with an older system. Once you've got some 100+ year old institution of an energy economy or a union you've had so many chances for corruption and bullshit to creep in, fortify, and really mess things up that the original mission can get lost. Enough systems like that and you can have a pretty small group playing meta games to the detriment of what they were originally supposed to be doing for the folks they're supposed to represent. How to balance that with some of the big positives of institutional memory, experience, and sustained vision? Hell if I know.

 

[xringr]

The only people who will benefit from the green energy are manufacturers of wind and solar devices, battery makers, and politicians who get rich off of getting the money flowing to these people . a wind turbine carbon footprint to build is larger than if you burned fossil fuels for same energy that will be made with said turbine. And by the time a wind turbine pays for itself with intermittent power produced, it is worn out and must be rebuilt or abandoned. Huge gas fired turbines have to be on hot standby to pick up the sagging grid when wind and solar fail. Its fucking bullshit that any person who works in the real world where power ismade can understand.

 

[My_GPR>ME]

i got nothing against folks making as much as they can...and i don;t know if that is what you meant, but "unions" are not a component of capitalism except that they reinforce the capitalist class system, separating themselves (as you say) from the fucking poors (as we are fond of saying).

no, the only tool for bargaining that unions have is that they can leave the employer in a lurch, and hurt them financially or otherwise.
i am not sure how that is "capitalism" but of course it is not my job or right to define that for you.

Finally somebody with a brain speaks with some intent behind his comments. I believe there is still a three class system. Rich middle and poor. I would define my self as middle under the definition that I have a house wife who's only job is to manage my family in regards to doctors appointments clothes food and schooling. Poor being households that "need" both spouses working to get by. And Rich, where no one needs to go to work to make their ends meets(investments making money). This was a pretty common believe amongst all people. Now it seems because I'm union and I can afford my wife to stay home and raise our family I'm a socialist or something. With that said I agree your comment of unions not being purely capitalist but maybe just a tool for the worker to obtain their fair share. Has some weight and maybe I overstated it in a manner to skip the boring long description here. Unions are what they are no matter the economic system they work under. With that said if we were communist and had unions there would be no benefit because the government would control the wages via law and or force. Now under capitalism we the worker can argue and fight even possibly strike for a better wage. In the end if the market doesnt support it the workers will strike endlessly or cave for the fact that they also have Bill's that need to be paid and families to be feed. It's a check and balance system that will and always balance itself. In my contract we take account of the non union competitors and keep ourselves in demand otherwise no matter how much we want we wont have work if our company cant provided a competitive price point. So all these Yahoos screaming socialist and so on are purely ignorant. I know I'm worthy of my wages because I've earned them and worked my way up from 12 dollars an hour as a shop bitch. I hope this clarifies my view, otherwise thanks for the thoughtful and non belligerent post LBC.

 

[theLBC]

Yup. But I don't think the flaw is as big of a deal in younger systems for the most part, at least you can probably minimize the harm more than with an older system. Once you've got some 100+ year old institution of an energy economy or a union you've had so many chances for corruption and bullshit to creep in, fortify, and really mess things up that the original mission can get lost. Enough systems like that and you can have a pretty small group playing meta games to the detriment of what they were originally supposed to be doing for the folks they're supposed to represent. How to balance that with some of the big positives of institutional memory, experience, and sustained vision? Hell if I know.

right. some unions have become so entrenched, they don't have to compete "fairly" with non-union labor.
"they can go to the non-union shop" is rarely an option for bigger operations. they might have 500 union workers on projects and they can't risk using better and cheaper 20 man non-union crew on a project and risk stopping everything else the other 500 are doing.

 

[theLBC]

The only people who will benefit from the green energy are manufacturers of wind and solar devices, battery makers, and politicians who get rich off of getting the money flowing to these people . a wind turbine carbon footprint to build is larger than if you burned fossil fuels for same energy that will be made with said turbine. And by the time a wind turbine pays for itself with intermittent power produced, it is worn out and must be rebuilt or abandoned. Huge gas fired turbines have to be on hot standby to pick up the sagging grid when wind and solar fail. Its fucking bullshit that any person who works in the real world where power ismade can understand.

the answer, which is ultimately greener than solar or wind, is molten salt MSRs.

 

[Steve_In_29]

Fossil fuel is the only way to run the country. Solar never pays back what it costs to build. Same with wind. Both end their life cycle before paying back what it costs to build.

Nuclear, if any liberal would ever SHUT THE FUCK UP, has possibilities.

California already forces folks to turn off the fridge when they go to work. How would they support an increase in electric cars?

How do you plan to maintain the infrastructure without fossil fuels? Fossil fuels are not dead, they are not close to depletion, and they are the most portable energy dense solution.

We have spent a century building the fossil fuel infrastructure. Drive 30 minutes from your house in any direction, then report back to us how many fuel pumps you passed, and on the same route, how many high pressure hydrogen stations you saw, and how many electric car charging stations you saw. Remember to go during the day so your solar can recharge, and also remember that 95% of the global hydrogen supply is a byproduct of the oil refining process.

Hydrogen is a net-loss fuel as well so not going to supplant fossil fuels.

I once read a good article about how if the world had developed as a hydrogen powered society, that the discovery of gasoline would be seen as a god send of efficincy.

 

[Bender]

I live the West. More importantly, I live in the US, and yeah, I want an environment worth having. Fuck fossil fuel, it's literally dead and I don't want to die with it. Holding on to legacy tech or operations for the sake of jobs is just poor management. Does it hurt? Sure. Have been where these guys might be finding themselves soon, sure. Did I figure a way out and do better. Yes. Can they? Up to them.

Viva la individual.

You are literally retarded. Now I feel bad for you.

and you still will never be a real woman

 

[Bender]

Hydrogen is a net-loss fuel as well so not going to supplant fossil fuels.

I once read a good article about how if the world had developed as a hydrogen powered society, that the discovery of gasoline would be seen as a god send of efficincy.

Hydrogen is a battery. Nothing more.

if only we could find an energy dense source of energy that is readily available with minimal input and locate it widely across the nation, maybe we could look underground for it, move it by underground means, and store it underground. It would provide heat and electricity with minimal conversion and be relatively safe and inexpensive.

if only there were such a product available.

 

[theLBC]

anyway, somebody has to make enough to buy a boat and take me fishing once in a while.

 

[Steve_In_29]

i got nothing against folks making as much as they can...and i don;t know if that is what you meant, but "unions" are not a component of capitalism except that they reinforce the capitalist class system, separating themselves (as you say) from the fucking poors (as we are fond of saying).

no, the only tool for bargaining that unions have is that they can leave the employer in a lurch, and hurt them financially or otherwise.
i am not sure how that is "capitalism" but of course it is not my job or right to define that for you.

Well in a system where the workers have zero ability to influence the employer it is called slavery. Work for how long we tell you, at whatever wage we tell you, in any unsafe conditions we tell you...or get out. But you can just go get a job with another company you say...not when ALL of them are operating under the same set of rules.

If you want to learn about how things were in a pre-union, more pure capitalist America read Upton Sinclair's, "The Jungle".

Henry Ford and others perfected the art of breaking tasks down into easily mastered steps on the assembly line in order to destroy the hold that SKILLED labor had on businesses at the time.

 

[obk]

if only there were such a product available.

 

[theLBC]

Well in a system where the workers have zero ability to influence the employer it is called slavery. Work for how long we tell you, at whatever wage we tell you, in any unsafe conditions we tell you...or get out. But you can just go get a job with another company you say...not when ALL of them are operating under the same set of rules.

If you want to learn about how things were in a pre-union, more pure capitalist America read Upton Sinclair's, "The Jungle".

Henry Ford and others perfected the art of breaking tasks down into easily mastered steps on the assembly line in order to destroy the hold that SKILLED labor had on businesses at the time.

this has been acknowledged, but as i and others have said, this was before George could pick up the phone and ask Henry if his work was the same, and before there was OSHA and other government agencies that ensure your work conditions are safe, and you get breaks, and a medicine chest with aspirin and bandaids, and a poster telling you that you have a right to all these things, and who to call if you see any violation.

see what i mean?

if you want to see a modern version of the jungle, watch Dark Waters and learn about what Dupont was up to.

 

[LeftyJason]

Hydrogen is a battery. Nothing more.

if only we could find an energy dense source of energy that is readily available with minimal input and locate it widely across the nation, maybe we could look underground for it, move it by underground means, and store it underground. It would provide heat and electricity with minimal conversion and be relatively safe and inexpensive.

if only there were such a product available.

If only....

Xkcd #1162 and 2115

 

[Bender]

Well in a system where the workers have zero ability to influence the employer it is called slavery. Work for how long we tell you, at whatever wage we tell you, in any unsafe conditions we tell you...or get out. But you can just go get a job with another company you say...not when ALL of them are operating under the same set of rules.

If you want to learn about how things were in a pre-union, more pure capitalist America read Upton Sinclair's, "The Jungle".

Henry Ford and others perfected the art of breaking tasks down into easily mastered steps on the assembly line in order to destroy the hold that SKILLED labor had on businesses at the time.

Shut

the

Fuck

up

You

commie

Shill.

 

[theLBC]

pretty sure if you went to school is the USA you would have seen The Jungle movie at least twice, plus extra views from when your teacher was hung over or too lazy to teach. Sons of Liberty was another good break, but i bet they don't show that anymore cause the evil white peepo.

actually, they probably don't show the jungle anymore because it shows white people suffering.

 

[Steve_In_29]

this has been acknowledged, but as i and others have said, this was before George could pick up the phone and ask Henry if his work was the same, and before there was OSHA and other government agencies that ensure your work conditions are safe, and you get breaks, and a medicine chest with aspirin and bandaids, and a poster telling you that you have a right to all these things, and who to call if you see any violation.

see what i mean?

if you want to see a modern version of the jungle, watch Dark Waters and learn about what Dupont was up to.

ALL of those safeguards are the result of unions putting pressure on politicians. Dem politicians by the way, as almost all Repubs are pro-business/anti-workers.

I worked Federal Civil Service and even WITH all those nice laws protecting employees, management ROUTINELY violated the rules and had to be brought to heal by the (mostly powerless) union we had. We had no strike option nor collective bargaining and could only threaten legal action for the violations. Legal action management knew they would loose once the laws they broke were pointed out. But even with that they NEVER stopped trying to evade the rules.

 

[Steve_In_29]

Shut

the

Fuck

up

You

commie

Shill.

Fuck

You

And

The

Horse

That

Rode

Your

Mother

 

[theLBC]

ALL of those safeguards are the result of unions putting pressure on politicians. Dem politicians by the way, as almost all Repubs are pro-business/anti-workers.

I worked Federal Civil Service and even WITH all those nice laws protecting employees, management ROUTINELY violated the rules and had to be brought to heal by the (mostly powerless) union we had. We had no strike option nor collective bargaining and could only threaten legal action for the violations. Legal action management knew they would loose once the laws they broke were pointed out. But even with that they NEVER stopped trying to evade the rules.

uh, huh. sorry, but public outcry and not unions are responsible for osha, and nixon signed the bipartisan bill.

 

[Steve_In_29]

View attachment 7545242

uh, huh. sorry, but public outcry and not unions are responsible for osha, and nixon signed the bipartisan bill.

Yeah sure, unions had absolutely zero to do with it.

And Presidents sign lots of things they don't personally agree with.

 

[theLBC]

Yeah sure, unions had absolutely zero to do with it.

And Presidents sign lots of things they don't personally agree with.

unions since the 50s are mostly self serving, although they also share the bribe and extortion money with politicians.

like the PLO or IRA, they might have stood for something at one time, but they just became professional assholes that could not fix the problem without eliminating their own careers.

 

[EddieNFL]

... but they just became professional assholes that could not fix the problem without eliminating their own careers.

I was daydreaming for a minute. We still talking about unions, or did the topic switch to politicians?

 

[Powder_Burns]

Thought that was a NRA reference myself.

 

[Im2bent]

Ok that's weird I did not quote anyone and I certainly did not make this post yet here it is...... so I deleted the quote I did not quote.

 

[Steve_In_29]

unions since the 50s are mostly self serving, although they also share the bribe and extortion money with politicians.

like the PLO or IRA, they might have stood for something at one time, but they just became professional assholes that could not fix the problem without eliminating their own careers.

I am not disagreeing on what unions have become but they still have a use. Just as a friend that worked at Coors when younger related to me that old man Coors made no bones about why he was giving the workers so many perks. It was to keep the union out. So absent that threat, working at the brewery wouldn't have been so pleasant.

And even OSHA has grown into a monster that is more concerned about its power then the actual workers,

 

[tomcatmv]

Nuclear power is the way to go. I worked in the industry years ago. I really is safe, clean and renewable (look up breeder reactors). Actually relatively small US Navy power reactors could be scattered around the grid pretty fast. I worked on a Navy Nuke program that proved their safety.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

You are literally retarded. Now I feel bad for you.

and you still will never be a real woman

Prediction: You're going to be posting "It's Happening!" threads for the next 4 years.

I'll wear the "Bender thinks I'm a retard" badge proudly, and not without a small sense of relief.

 

[Bender]

Prediction: You're going to be posting "It's Happening!" threads for the next 4 years.

I'll wear the "Bender thinks I'm a retard" badge proudly, and not without a small sense of relief.

Oh, Shweety, to wear a badge with a list of people that think you’re retarded would rip your blouse right off.

 

[vinniedelpino]

When I was in grad school, we had a researcher join the lab after retirement from industry. He worked at a company with unionized labor- at least in part. For example, facilities was union, though lab employees were not. One day, the light bulb burned out in his fume hood, taking it off line. Being a good employee, he filed the ticket for the light bulb to be replaced. Months later, the light bulb is still not replaced. He replaced it and immediately had a grievance filed against him for taking a union job.

Fuck the union.

My uncle was a member of the union when he was employed at Alcoa. Fuck, it seems like he was on strike more than he was working. Either the Alcoa plant was striking, or the Reynolds plant was- I think the Union flipped a coin every week to decide which plants were not running. Anyway, based on the stories he told, I’m surprised that any of us had enough foil to make a hat. But, he retired with a fat pension.

Fuck the union.

California and Connecticut both have teachers‘ unions. You don’t have to be a member, but you still have to pay the dues.

Fuck the union.

Before he retired, my dad had to visit the site we a new office building was being built.

”It’s 9 in the morning, and your months behind schedule. Why are you all sitting around having coffee?”

”Oh, they’re the dry wallers. They can’t start until the electricians pull the wires to the boxes.“

”Where are the electricians?”

”???”

<Looks at wall> “The wires are, literally, hanging at the boxes. Stuff them in there and get to work.”

”Can’t. That’s a union job...”

Fuck the union.

Unions- Avioding work-place accidents by avoiding work since 1866...

Haha! I walked off my first job at a food distribution facility around '05 because of union bullshit.

We had about 50 bays where trucks would pull in with deliveries. The lumpers would unload the trucks, we'd check to make sure everything was there and the union guys would then take the pallets and stock them throughout the warehouse.

One day we're horrendously backed up. The union guys are out smoking cigarettes and dicking around as the unloading floor is packed to capacity. The lumpers can't unload anymore because there's nowhere to put it, so the whole operation grinds to a screeching halt.

After about a half hour of doing nothing I said "fuck it." I hopped on a pallet jack and started moving the pallets over to the pallet wrapping machine to get them off the floor. The shop steward, or whatever the fuck he called himself starts losing his shit and marches upstairs to chew out management.

When the warehouse manager and the union dickwad started to chew me out about operating the equipment (which I was certified on, btw) I told them to hold on a second, walked over to a propane forklift and did a lap around the warehouse on idle while flipping the bird to every union guy in the warehouse including the shop steward

Coming from NY, I'm passionate about my hatred for unions. Everybody wonders why electricity was three or four times the national average, why property taxes are 5x the national average, why sales tax is among the highest in the country and why pretty much EVERY FUCKING THING YOU BUY is more expensive than in the rest of the country. It's the unions. It's the NYPD, FDNY, teamsters, brick layers, electricians, plumbers, LIPA workers, govt workers etc. When someone's getting paid more than they're worth, it's coming from somewhere, and it's eventually getting passed on to the end consumer.

Every once in a while a union bashing thread pops up and I know it ruffles some feathers so I generally avoid it. I'm with you though... fuck the unions. Nobody cuts the union a check so nobody thinks about the damage they do, but it can be devastating. Just look at NY.

 

[AngryKoala]

Oh, Shweety, to wear a badge with a list of people that think you’re retarded would rip you blouse right off.

Cool so after the amazing pigeon pounding session I'm no longer sweety? I see how it is, you just plow and go with no customary butt tickle. I am DONE!!!!

 

[Bender]

If Unions were actually successful, they would no longer be needed.

 

[theLBC]

If Unions were actually successful, they would no longer be needed.

if democrats delivered what they constantly promise, they wouldn't be needed either.
that is why they don't actually try to help poor people...because once people pay real taxes, they start getting conservative.

that is why they hated and feared trump. he showed folks that poor people can be helped. he showed minorities can be helped.
he did everything they have promised and failed to deliver for decades.

 

[AngryKoala]

If Unions were actually successful, they would no longer be needed.

Yes and no. In some professions they are needed. Most professions do not require a union nor would they benefit from one.

 

[theLBC]

Yes and no. In some professions they are needed. Most professions do not require a union nor would they benefit from one.

yeah, as i said before, i like the trade union training model (apprentice, journeyman, master...) however it is structured, where unskilled labor can learn from experienced people over time and earn their stripes.
getting paid triple time on sundays to run groceries through the register, not so much.

 

[wildcats]

But but but he said that he would provide ONE MILLION jobs creating negative emission government vehicles!!! Dontcha believe him? One million jobs!!! Come on man!

 

[AngryKoala]

yeah, as i said before, i like the trade union training model (apprentice, journeyman, master...) however it is structured, where unskilled labor can learn from experienced people over time and earn their stripes.
getting paid triple time on sundays to run groceries through the register, not so much.

I'm all for people getting paid as much as possible. Why does it matter if the individual is running groceries through the register? Working weekends suck which is why they are paid more ( I was paid an extra $3.30 per hr at amazon for weekends). You show me where someone is getting paid triple time working at a register and you'll see my big ass with one of those dumb aprons on.....I'll wear assless chaps just for you...for an extra $10.

 

[theLBC]

I'm all for people getting paid as much as possible. Why does it matter if the individual is running groceries through the register? Working weekends suck which is why they are paid more ( I was paid an extra $3.30 per hr at amazon for weekends). You show me where someone is getting paid triple time working at a register and you'll see my big ass with one of those dumb aprons on.....I'll wear assless chaps just for you...for an extra $10.

i am for people earning as much as they are worth. this is slightly different.
for example, a shit teacher getting a raise while helping to destroy the futures of kids with their incompetence is not something i will celebrate.
sorry about that if you are a shit teacher (or whatever).

as for retail clerks, of which i know many (my brother used to manage a stater brothers), i got no beef, but neither do i ignore the fact that i eventually pay the difference. it does smart a bit that green onions cost $1.99 for half as much as $.99 used to buy.

 

[AngryKoala]

i am for people earning as much as they are worth. this is slightly different.
for example, a shit teacher getting a raise while helping to destroy the futures of kids with their incompetence is not something i will celebrate.
sorry about that if you are a shit teacher (or whatever).

as for retail clerks, of which i know many (my brother used to manage a stater brothers), i got no beef, but neither do i ignore the fact that i eventually pay the difference. it does smart a bit that green onions cost $1.99 for half as much as $.99 used to buy.

Yes, because non-union shitty employees don't ever get raises/promotions. I'm not going down the teacher/union rabbit hole with you again lol. Don't have to be in a union to suck off your manager and get a promotion.

 

[theLBC]

Yes, because non-union shitty employees don't ever get raises/promotions. I'm not going down the teacher/union rabbit hole with you again lol. Don't have to be in a union to suck off your manager and get a promotion.

you're not serious, are you? every argument has to account for beejays?
so i suppose you're thrilled that .gov in the lbc is forcing grocery stores to give everyone $4/hr hero pay, which is forcing at least 2 stores to close so far. somehow for some reason arbitrarily enforcing wage increases doesn't always work out.

 

[theLBC]

hey now, i just realized maybe i am wrong for once in my life!

see, for some reason, i don't think that somebody that stocks grocery store shelves out of high school should make the same amount as an experienced electrician, or welder, or plumber or machinist (or whatever takes years of experience to be good at) , just because they are in a good union.

i am beginning to think these free market guys are the actual communists. lets just give the same to everyone.

 

[AngryKoala]

you're not serious, are you? every argument has to account for beejays?
so i suppose you're thrilled that .gov in the lbc is forcing grocery stores to give everyone $4/hr hero pay, which is forcing at least 2 stores to close so far. somehow for some reason arbitrarily enforcing wage increases doesn't always work out.

You just went from unions to government enforcing increased pay. I am not for government interference in most things so the answer to your question is no. The answer to your other question is yes, your argument must account for BJ's, HJ's and gerbils.

I'm going to say that large retail stores, grocery/meal delivery and a multitude of other options have more to do with your grocery stores closing than the $4 of "hero" pay per hour. I could be wrong on that, just my opinion.