• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Van Orden Model 70

Mister Ridge

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Aug 15, 2011
    1,540
    1,826
    Maryland
    The link below is for a Winchester M70 that sold at auction today. The serial number matches a rifle on the list posted on here. The list indicates the rifle sod to an individual in Maryland. Did the buyer get a good deal? I am inclined to think the rifle itself is worth the price paid. I want to know if the historical link adds any value.

    Excellent Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action Target Rifle
     
    If it was in my local shop I'd probably find a way to buy it at that price. It's beautiful.
     
    Too bad, it is quite valuable, if it is correct, which it appears to be.,
     
    Gorgeous piece of kit... and almost any pre-64 Model 70 is worth some serious dollars these days. A target rifle with solid provenance... I'd have paid $2800 (including buyers fees, etc.) in a second. As long as it is what it is purported to be... and it's not something easily faked... it's worth every bit of that.

    You mentioned that showed up on a list here? Please elaborate? Just curious.

    Someone did well on that rifle.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    I grew up in the next town from the original owner of that rifle in Maryland. I had the chance to fire it at a high power range that is sadly now gone. It belonged to a very nice gentleman who was a high power rifle enthusiast, who was also a very well known specialist on heavy weapons and ballistics (the rocket kind).

    That very rifle sold at RIA a few years ago for almost twice the latest auction price because it had an original WW2 Unertl USMC marked scope on it, which has been subsequently separated from it.

    Kind of thinking it was bought for the sole purpose of getting the Unertl, and since the Van Orden rifle was originally a "Sniper's Match" rifle and not a fielded Sniper - it drew little interest from the original RIA bidder from the past.

    Several original Van Orden Snipers and Match rifles have shown up in the Mid Atlantic area in the past few years as the original owners pass on. I have seen or heard of 5 rifles, and most have been Snipers Match rifles in the same configuration as the sold piece. All of the Snipers Match rifles sold from $3800 to $4000, and the National Match models sold for about a Grand less. The Snipers are very nice handling rifles, and to find one in the original condition would have been great. I saw that rifle in the listings and knew what it was, but I am tapped out from buying 6 Military marked NightForce scopes for my SPR and EBR collection.

    Whomever got it got a sweet rifle! They are out there if you are looking for one, but do your own research so you know what you are looking for. Some of the rifles have mismatched parts, but they are easy to spot.

    Good Hunting yáll.
     
    Am I right by saying that the seller advertised and sold it without knowing its a Van Orden rifle?

    Thats a steal.

    I am not sure. It may have been announced during the live auction but I was not at home to see it. It was not advertised on the website.
     
    Hi Gentlemen-

    I'm the guy who bought lot #1284 in the RIAC auction. Naturally I do not have the weapon yet, it will probably be at least another week (or two) if my past experience with RIA holds true.

    I'm primarily a Model 70 collector, and definitely not an expert in military or sniper weapons. My first thought when I saw this lot on the RIAC catalogue was that someone had made up a replica of a civilian "Van Orden Sniper rifle". Then of course I checked the serial number in Chandler and decided it was worth bidding on (fully expecting that numerous followers of this forum would run the price well beyond my intended stopping point). Now we'll see... It looks original (to me) on the outside in the photos and I know pre 64 Model 70s well enough to tell what (if any) owner modifications have occurred over the years.

    I would be very interested in knowing if anyone has any specific information about this particular rifle (S/N 351439) which according to Chandler was sold to Victor Dawson of Silver Spring, MD in March 1956. JoeDPPD mentioned knowing the original owner? Anyone have copies of the Evaluators Ltd sales records (Chandler's source material)? Someone out there with more knowledge than me probably knows what Evaluators Ltd meant when they described their Model 70 as "custom converted by the Winchester Repeating Arms Co., to the specifications of and as finally assembled by Evaluators Ltd., Inc., Quantico, Va.”

    I know that the barreled action is stock Model 70 Catalog #G7044C, right down to the clip loading slot (only Model 70 National Match, Target and Bull Guns had clip loading slots after 1946), the Lyman 77R and 48WH sights, and Lyman-type scope blocks. What I'm curious about is the stock. Did Evaluators Ltd special order them from Winchester with no checkering and oil finish, or was that an in-house conversion? What tuning was performed on these rifles at the shop before they were sold? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers,
    Lou
     
    Lou:

    Great to hear from you and while I am not the right guy to answer your questions on this particular rifle (my pre-64 Model 70's are all sporting models), I will be fascinated to follow the next phase of the discussion. You are definitely in the right place for answers and I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say that we are glad you showed up and we look forward to the discussion.

    I'll belay my jealously long enough to say congrats on a great purchase... it's nice to know the rifle is in good and sympathetic hands.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    Why is it that you do not have the rifle yet?

    I was an on-line bidder. Have to to wait for them to post the "won lot" (after the auction was over - Monday), complete a buyer's information form so they can calculate S/H/I, pick up a certified check, get the dealer's FFL sent, etc. RIAC is getting quicker at this process, but it will still take a few days before the gun gets here to Charleston SC. In my past experience it's taken as much as 2 weeks in all.

    As a Model 70 collector, and self-confessed martial arms novice, I would welcome any info the forum membership can provide. This site already has some great info on Evaluators Ltd and General Van Orden in old posts. I'm very interested in knowing how much of the modification done to the Van Orden Sniper rifles was done at the factory, and how much at the shop prior to sale. To me, the weapon would be most interesting if it was in the configuration that it left Evaluators Ltd. So it would be helpful to be able to sort out what was done by factory/shop/owner(s) along the way. When I get it I'll dismount it from the stock and look over the insides. From the outside (photos) it looks pretty good to me.

    Thanks
     
    I was an on-line bidder. Have to to wait for them to post the "won lot" (after the auction was over - Monday), complete a buyer's information form so they can calculate S/H/I, pick up a certified check, get the dealer's FFL sent, etc. RIAC is getting quicker at this process, but it will still take a few days before the gun gets here to Charleston SC. In my past experience it's taken as much as 2 weeks in all.

    As a Model 70 collector, and self-confessed martial arms novice, I would welcome any info the forum membership can provide. This site already has some great info on Evaluators Ltd and General Van Orden in old posts. I'm very interested in knowing how much of the modification done to the Van Orden Sniper rifles was done at the factory, and how much at the shop prior to sale. To me, the weapon would be most interesting if it was in the configuration that it left Evaluators Ltd. So it would be helpful to be able to sort out what was done by factory/shop/owner(s) along the way. When I get it I'll dismount it from the stock and look over the insides. From the outside (photos) it looks pretty good to me.

    Thanks

    Why does icollector list it as sold to a floor bidder?
     
    Why does icollector list it as sold to a floor bidder?

    Honestly, I've no idea. I bid via ProxyBid. RIAC sent me an invoice directly and I've sent them a certified check in the amount of $2710.52. So either I'm the buyer or RIAC is taking me for a few grand... Which they've never done before.
    I had intended to engage this forum AFTER I had the gun, but just happened to run across the thread you created the day the gun sold. BTW... Thanks for NOT starting it the week before!!!!
    If you have doubts about my integrity, I suggest we suspend this conversation until I see if the rifle is delivered to my dealer. At which point I can post a few photos and establish credibility in your eyes.

    Best,
    Lou
     
    I suppose it's possible that icollector is not synced up with ProxyBid and thus registered the sale as sold to floor. I would, however, like to say that getting defensive is very suspicious. Also, if you knew much about Van Orden rifles, you would recognize that stock, as it is a very notable feature of some Van Orden rifles. Had you browsed the site more you would have seen another thread I posted asking about such stocks.
     
    R.A.:

    More likely, Proxibid, being a third party, gets lumped into the floor bidder category. If you bid at RIA from the live auction floor... you are floor bidder. If you bid via the RIA phone lines, you are a phone bidder. If you bid via the RIA in-house online option... you are an online bidder. My guess is that Proxibid, as a third party, either uses a human floor bidder to fulfill bids at live auction or, because they are a third party, they get lumped into that category.

    Do you really think that someone is coming aboard SH to pretend to buy a unique rifle and discuss it? Occam's Razor says that's a bit unlikely.

    Let's welcome Lou XXRoyXX and learn from his purchase.

    Even if I am insanely jealous of his new rifle and want to call him names for being smarter than me by buying it...

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    Last edited:
    R.A.:

    More likely, Proxibid, being a third party, gets lumped into the floor bidder category. If you bid at RIA from the live auction floor... you are floor bidder. If you bid via the RIA phone lines, you are a phone bidder. If you bid via the RIA in-house online option... you are an online bidder. My guess is that Proxibid, as a third party, either uses a human floor bidder to fulfill bids at live auction or, because they are a third party, they get lumped into that category.

    Do you really think that someone is coming aboard SH to pretend to buy a unique rifle and discuss it? Occam's Razor says that's a bit unlikely.

    Let's welcome Roy and learn from his purchase.

    Even if I am insanely jealous of his new rifle and want to call him names for being smarter than me by buying it...

    Cheers,

    Sirhr

    Who's Roy? I thought the guys name was Lou. At any rate, don't mind me. I am a horribly cynical person. I was more amazed at the guy that said he had met the original owner and fired the thing. I really hope Lou is real. I want to know more about the rifle.
     
    No worries...
    All I can say from personal experience with RIAC is that live "phone bids" show up as "on site" sales. I've no idea about how "on-line" bids show up on different independent companies' websites. I have to assume that since ProxyBid and iCollector are "rival" on-line auction companies, they do not have an real time data-sharing agreement. Beyond that I cannot speculate...
    Perhaps my best course of action is to revert to my original plan, which was to wait until I had the gun and then engage this forum. I will post some photos on this thread to address any concerns you or others may have regarding my credibility, and then start a new one regarding my original queries. Do understand that, having been invoiced yesterday and sent payment today, it will be a few days before I can post.
    As for the matter of the stock, my question was not whether it was correct for a Van Orden "Sniper" model, but whether it was Winchester factory production. I spent a fair amount of time looking at prior posts, and found some useful information, but it was never clear to me whether the uncheckered oil finished stock was Winchester factory production or Evaluators Ltd modification.
    Best,
    Lou
     
    No worries...
    All I can say from personal experience with RIAC is that live "phone bids" show up as "on site" sales. I've no idea about how "on-line" bids show up on different independent companies' websites. I have to assume that since ProxyBid and iCollector are "rival" on-line auction companies, they do not have an real time data-sharing agreement. Beyond that I cannot speculate...
    Perhaps my best course of action is to revert to my original plan, which was to wait until I had the gun and then engage this forum. I will post some photos on this thread to address any concerns you or others may have regarding my credibility, and then start a new one regarding my original queries. Do understand that, having been invoiced yesterday and sent payment today, it will be a few days before I can post.
    As for the matter of the stock, my question was not whether it was correct for a Van Orden "Sniper" model, but whether it was Winchester factory production. I spent a fair amount of time looking at prior posts, and found some useful information, but it was never clear to me whether the uncheckered oil finished stock was Winchester factory production or Evaluators Ltd modification.
    Best,
    Lou

    I'm sorry. I misread one of your earlier posts. My mistake. I think I read in one of Peter Senich's books that the stocks were special order from Winchester. I will check and post later. When you do post more about the rifle, make sure to mention the bore quality. I would also like to know if the rear receiver ring is D&T.
     
    R.A. Rifleman-

    Thanks. If the gun is straight 1955 M70 target rifle metal, it will be drilled and tapped on the bridge (same 0.550" hole spacing they used on the late H&H mag length actions). Can't tell from the on-line photos and I did not call RIAC in advance of the auction, for obvious reasons. There's enough potential bidding "competition" from the users of this site who know what they're looking at (like JoeDPPD), without advertising what RIAC did not mention... Only the pre-war type 1 actions and the pre-war/transition H&H mag length actions were undrilled on the bridge. I've got a (totally civilian) circa 1960 M70 30-06 SPFLD target model that this gun should look exactly like (except for the Marksman stock). Which Senich book has the data you cite? I'm a neophyte in military guns, I've not read everything, and would like to learn more....

    Personally, I'm interested in the treatment of the forearm screw. On my pre-war M70(s) in 375 MAGNUM with the 24" medium heavy target barrel (S/N <25000, before the 25" C1 contour barrel was introduced) the underside of the barrel was dovetailed to accept an escutcheon for the fore end screw. On all my target and varmint models (where the bottom of the stock fore end is NOT drilled), the bottom of the barrel is uncut. From the photos of S/N 351439 and other genuine Van Orden rifle pictures posted on-line, the bottom of the forend (stock) has the hole in it. I'm curious if there is a screw attaching the stock to the barrel. Likely wouldn't impact the "originality" of the piece, but I would not expect either "free floating" or fiberglass bedding in a gun with a functional fore end screw... Anybody how a real original Van Orden rifle was put together?

    I'll post pics assuming I get the danged thing (You've got me worrying... My reputation is at stake!!!). BTW... If anybody has a question about civilian M70 production (not the focus of this forum) I'll bet I'm pretty good. But this is your guys' area...

    Best,
    Lou
     
    I checked in Senich's book. The one I have is "The Complete Book of US Sniping" or something to that effect. The book shows an ordnance drawing of the rifle as it sits now and also includes part of a military report stating that Van Orden had Winchester produce the rifles. It doesn't really have anything conclusive. As an aside, were Lyman sights available as an option on civilian rifles? I keep looking at one in PA that is similar to the one above except it has a Marksman stock. I don't have the $2400 but I can dream.
     
    Anyone looking for info about the Van Orden rifles should read Senich's book The One Round War.

    Pictures, description and lots of information about George O. Van Orden and the rifles.

    Samples:


     
    Interesting... was the Lyman Targetspot originally a Litschert scope, rebranded or sold by Lyman? I have a 12x Litschert on my Model 52 and it is remarkably like the one pictured except it's called a Spot Shot. Litschert's are amazing scopes... and don't seem to command the prices of a Unertl, maybe just because they are not as well known.

    As for why I have a 12X scope on a .22... because back in the mid-1990's I used to go to .22 matches called 50/50 shoots at a shooting range near Cols. Ohio. Everyone would put in a buck and winner got half, half went to the house to pay for the shoot. Great fun matches. Targets included things like thumb tacks, aspirin tablets and 50 ft NRA small bore targets set up at 50 - 75 - 100 yds. A Great way to spend a Saturday afternoon...

    Interesting read...

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    Last edited:
    Great suggestions, THANKS. While I've got about everything there is on Model 70s, I have very little in my gun library about the US sniper program, equipment, etc. Since there are several Senich titles, I appreciate the advice on which to consult first.

    Regarding Lyman sights on civilian Winchester M70 target rifles:

    -- All Model 70 National Match, Target, and Bull Guns from 1936-1963 had the "Lyman-type" telescope sight mounting blocks that have a radius cut on top to permit unobstructed use of metallic sights with the scope removed. A two-position block on the barrel and a single position block on the front receiver ring (just like MescaBug's photo below). The front block was different heights for the different target configuration due to differences in barrel dimeter. Over the years MANY of these block got replaced by "Unertl-type" blocks that are flat on top, but you can periodically find the right ones on Ebay.

    -- The earliest Target (Medium Heavy barrel) rifles (1936-1937) were factory equipped with Lyman 17A globe front and Lyman 48WJS receiver sights (same receiver sight used on the sporting rifles of the time). Mostly, these are the ultra-rare "first variation" Target rifles with an integral front sight ramp that were produced from barrel blanks manufactured for Model 54 production. I have one of these (S/N 3339) and it does have the Lyman 48WJS. Several examples are pictured in Rule's Model 70 book.

    -- From the advent of the so-called "second variation" Medium Heavy target barrel (1937-1952) where the muzzle end was dovetailed to accept a drift-in ('AK' height) block, the standard front sight became the Lyman 77R and receiver sight the Lyman 48WH. The only real difference between the 48WJS and 48WH is that there is a 'step-up' in the elevator cross bar carrying the aperture. It is worth noting that the Lyman 48 sights made before 1947 required inletting the stock, while the so-called 'half-block' design produced after 1947 does not. So if the gun you are looking at is pre-war or transition (clover leaf tang - below about S/N 80,000) then a cut-out in the stock IS factory original. Any 'oval tang' target (or sporting) rifle with wood removed for a receiver sight is probably owner-modified.

    -- Technically, the Target and Bull Gun were "discontinued', i.e. not catalogued, between 1952 and 1955, but as far as I can tell many were made/sold anyway. That would include a lot of the Van Orden rifle sales listed in Chandler. Sights would be Lyman 77R front and half-block Lyman 48WH receiver.

    -- When the Target and Bull Gun were reintroduced to the catalog (as an aside, the National Match rifle, with its standard weight barrel and Marksman stock, was never dropped), the so-called 3rd variation Medium Heavy target barrel came along (1955-1963). This differed only in that the cross dovetail cut at the muzzle was replaced by two 6-48 tapped holes. The only chamberings offered by this time were 30-06 and 243 WIN. The 1955 and later guns were catalogued as sold WITHOUT METALLIC SIGHTS, but of course could be ordered with them. Example being the Van Orden S/N 351439. The default sights, if so ordered, would have been the same Lyman 77R and half-block 48WH.

    Hope this is useful.
     
    Great suggestions, THANKS. While I've got about everything there is on Model 70s, I have very little in my gun library about the US sniper program, equipment, etc. Since there are several Senich titles, I appreciate the advice on which to consult first.

    Regarding Lyman sights on civilian Winchester M70 target rifles:

    -- All Model 70 National Match, Target, and Bull Guns from 1936-1963 had the "Lyman-type" telescope sight mounting blocks that have a radius cut on top to permit unobstructed use of metallic sights with the scope removed. A two-position block on the barrel and a single position block on the front receiver ring (just like MescaBug's photo below). The front block was different heights for the different target configuration due to differences in barrel dimeter. Over the years MANY of these block got replaced by "Unertl-type" blocks that are flat on top, but you can periodically find the right ones on Ebay.

    -- The earliest Target (Medium Heavy barrel) rifles (1936-1937) were factory equipped with Lyman 17A globe front and Lyman 48WJS receiver sights (same receiver sight used on the sporting rifles of the time). Mostly, these are the ultra-rare "first variation" Target rifles with an integral front sight ramp that were produced from barrel blanks manufactured for Model 54 production. I have one of these (S/N 3339) and it does have the Lyman 48WJS. Several examples are pictured in Rule's Model 70 book.

    -- From the advent of the so-called "second variation" Medium Heavy target barrel (1937-1952) where the muzzle end was dovetailed to accept a drift-in ('AK' height) block, the standard front sight became the Lyman 77R and receiver sight the Lyman 48WH. The only real difference between the 48WJS and 48WH is that there is a 'step-up' in the elevator cross bar carrying the aperture. It is worth noting that the Lyman 48 sights made before 1947 required inletting the stock, while the so-called 'half-block' design produced after 1947 does not. So if the gun you are looking at is pre-war or transition (clover leaf tang - below about S/N 80,000) then a cut-out in the stock IS factory original. Any 'oval tang' target (or sporting) rifle with wood removed for a receiver sight is probably owner-modified.

    -- Technically, the Target and Bull Gun were "discontinued', i.e. not catalogued, between 1952 and 1955, but as far as I can tell many were made/sold anyway. That would include a lot of the Van Orden rifle sales listed in Chandler. Sights would be Lyman 77R front and half-block Lyman 48WH receiver.

    -- When the Target and Bull Gun were reintroduced to the catalog (as an aside, the National Match rifle, with its standard weight barrel and Marksman stock, was never dropped), the so-called 3rd variation Medium Heavy target barrel came along (1955-1963). This differed only in that the cross dovetail cut at the muzzle was replaced by two 6-48 tapped holes. The only chamberings offered by this time were 30-06 and 243 WIN. The 1955 and later guns were catalogued as sold WITHOUT METALLIC SIGHTS, but of course could be ordered with them. Example being the Van Orden S/N 351439. The default sights, if so ordered, would have been the same Lyman 77R and half-block 48WH.

    Hope this is useful.

    Thank you, that is very useful. The rifle I'm looking at dates to 1961. I can't really see much about the sights from the pictures and the rifle is too far away to go look if I am not ready to buy. No matter as I am fairly sure that an original rifle would not be useful for my purposes. I would rather buy something non-original, and hopefully less valuable, that I can modify and tinker with. If you want to look, I posted a link to the rifle below. I know it's kind of odd but I was so thrilled just to get to hold this(and a Winchester 52B Bull gun w/ Lyman 5A scope). It was awesome to get to see one of these rifles in person. I never see anything like this at the local gunshops.

    Gun Library: Winchester Model 70 Target, .30-06 Sprg., Pre-64 : Cabela's
     
    That is a pretty nice example of the civilian M70 target, except for the rubber butt pad. The blocks are correct, the sights look correct (I can't quite be sure from the photos that it's a long slide 48WH - but I'd bet it is). As I said, the post 1955 rifles were catalogued without metallic sights (but with scope blocks), but anything could be had if you ordered it. If the price were more reasonable that would be just about the perfect rifle to tinker with since the butt pad diminishes its "collector value".
     
    That is a pretty nice example of the civilian M70 target, except for the rubber butt pad. The blocks are correct, the sights look correct (I can't quite be sure from the photos that it's a long slide 48WH - but I'd bet it is). As I said, the post 1955 rifles were catalogued without metallic sights (but with scope blocks), but anything could be had if you ordered it. If the price were more reasonable that would be just about the perfect rifle to tinker with since the butt pad diminishes its "collector value".

    It's possible they would negociate though I don't know to what extant. I guess it depends on how long they've had it and how much they paid for it. To go along with the cool factor, a local gunshop has a moderate quantity of the Lake City M72 match ammunition. I'd say about 10-15 boxes at least. He wants $25 a box for it but I'd try to get a bulk discount. I'd like to take the best boxes and put away for collector value, find as much as I could of a single lot to use with the above M70, and then tear down the rest for components to reload. By the way, when I say modify, I mean rebarrel, restock, and cerakote. I'm tossing about the idea of having one original though!

    P.S. There is also a Redfield 12x Silhouette scope & a 4-12x40mmA.O. on ebay that I think would be just great on that rifle.
     
    Last edited:
    For a complete custom build, I think the question is how much do you need the clip loading slot? If it's a requirement, then you are stuck starting with a 30-06 Target Model for the action.

    If not, then any relatively low mileage 1950's 30-06 or .270 WIN Standard rifle that has an owner-installed recoil pad is the place to start. All the action components are identical to the Target model. There's nothing special about the "T" marked triggers of the Target Models except for hand fitting. With a non-factory pad, such a gun isn't worth more than $750.00 no matter what folks want to sell them for (check what they've been selling for on GunBroker when started at $0.99 with No Reserve).

    While acknowledging that any item is worth whatever someone will pay for it, IMHO the Cabela's gun, with it's non-factory pad, is overpriced at $2400.00. Dave Riffle (a dealer in high grade - and high priced - Model 70s) recently sold a mint condition 30-06 Target with a Factory Special Order Stainless Steel barrel for $2800.00 (not to me, sadly). If you decide to go with an original M70 Target rifle, I suspect that patience will eventually pay off because Winchester made a decent number of 30-06 Target rifles (something like 10-12,000 in all). Since Target rifles tended to get fired a lot more than hunting guns ever do, finding them in near-new condition (zero scratches on the bottom flat of the Marksman stock fore end) is a nightmare for collectors (not to mention painfully expensive), but there ought to be decent original examples out there for reasonable money (if they're in the hands of somebody who actually wants to sell them). A few pre-existing handling marks relieves the 'guilt' of shooting them (or the worry you are devaluing your investment).

    Best of luck!!!

    When I get that RIAC Van Orden gun, I promise to post detail photos inside and out. I'm curious what the members of this site, some of whom must have actually handled these things, will think. The outside looks good to me, but God only knows what'll be 'under the hood'!!!
     
    That's a lot of good information. Thank you. As yet another aside, what's your opinion on the value of a Pre-64 M70 Bull Gun .300 H&H? With the 30-06 Target, I expect I will end up with a better rifle, but will likely spend more money building it than it would cost to buy an original. I would also like to do the same to acquire a .300H&H but suspect that the price difference between a bought original and a built custom will be less significant. In either case, I would ideally try to find rifles in less than perfect shape but mechanically excellent actions and buy cheap. Everything up to and including the trigger can be upgraded and replaced, especially if it allows me to get a good price on the action. I plan to make the rifles feel and look original yet perform to modern standards using modern materials and techniques. Sadly, these projects are several years down the road.

    P.S. You seem to be really hung up on the recoil pad. When I held the rifle, the length of pull did not seem altered in anyway. I would be willing to bet that the stock is unmodified and that a replacement buttplate could easily be installed. Would that help correct the over-pricing of the rifle?
     
    Last edited:
    opinion on the value of a Pre-64 M70 Bull Gun .300 H&H?

    My Blue Book is a few years out of date... but as so much collector $$ has gone into "Tacticool" stuff lately, the prices of a lot of classics have stayed somewhat flat. I see this at the gun shows where everyone is gaga over Black Plastic while lovely SXS shotguns and vintage rifles go begging. Of course, that's good for me as I like things with wood and blued steel. Plastic is for work... French Walnut and rust bluing are for play.

    Ok... the values for the .300 H&H: Prewar. Excellent 2200 VG 1600 Good 1300 Fair 800 Poor 500

    Postwar. Excellent 1650 VG 1250 Good 900 Fair 750 Poor 500

    Personally, I think these are a bit low. But that's what the book says.

    BTW R.A. if he still hangs out on this forum, DOC76251 shoots an amazing Pre-64 Win. I met him at a school in SC in 2010. He was one of the instructor cadre and worked for US Optics at the time. He was starting to have some barrel trouble with the rifle at the school and was going to get it rebuilt/rebarreled. His rifle wasn't much to look at in these days of Cerokote and snap-on accessories. Very little in tacticool or gee-whiz stuff on it. Just a superlative rifle and a top-of-the-line USO scope. But damn can he shoot it. He is also a hell of an instructor. If you look at some of Doc's old posts on the forum, you will probably find more than a few worthwhile tidbits about setting up an older Model 70.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    Last edited:
    Hmm. Definitely want the Post-War model as I would prefer to be able to mount conventional optics. I'm amazed at the low prices. Not having the money I haven't done much research. Definitely want to check out DOC's old post. Anything to learn something new!
     
    The M70 Bull Gun is truly a beast (Winchester was not kidding when they said it had a 28" EXTRA HEAVY barrel). Post-war model with some finish wear could probably be found for $1750-2250 or so. Still expensive...

    For the complete rebuilt approach, the idea of finding a 300 H&H Magnum Standard rifle for <$1000 and grabbing the action is not a bad plan. For the H&H actions, there never was a clip loading slot to worry about since the bridge is relieved to accommodate the longer cartridge. Unlike Bull Guns, which were not produced in large numbers, the .300 H&H Magnum standard rifle is quite plentiful (it really should not cost more for the action than a 30-06). The hole spacing on the bridge of a post war M70 H&H length action is identical to the 30-06 target with the clip loading slot (0.550"). So the same receiver mounted scope base would work on both rifles in the factory holes.

    Regarding the M70 30-06 Target with the pad. The original Marksman checkered steel butt plate is slightly curved. So most likely the butt was faced off square to install the pad even if the stock was not shortened, which would mean you'd have to flatten out the plate to install it. Wouldn't quite be "original" but would look pretty close. Somebody sold a pre-64 Marksman stock on Ebay a few weeks ago that looked intact, but I think it brought over $350.00.
     
    I went to the library today. They happen to have a copy of the both 2013 and 2014 edition of The Standard Catalog of Firearms. It lists the following value without regard to caliber of Pre/Post War era. The prices between the two seemed consistent.
    Condition Target Bull Gun
    Exc. 2450 3900
    V.G. 2100 3200
    Good 1150 2450
    Fine 750 850

    It also listed a value of $500 for a Winchester Model 70 action by itself and listed the lower grades of common models at that value as a result. It also indicated I should definitely go buy the Winchester 52s I have been looking at as they are both well priced!
     
    Last edited:
    It also listed a value of $500 for a Winchester Model 70 action by itself and listed the lower grades of common models at that value as a result. It also indicated I should definitely go buy the Winchester 52s I have been looking at as they are both well priced!

    You'll never regret buying a Model 52 target rifle. The sporters have, of course, been priced out of the market for years. But the target rifles continue to be bargains, though they are appreciating fast. I bought mine c. 1994... paying $300 for it at a local gunshop which really just wanted rid of it... there being no market for target .22's in rural Vermont (and no Gunbroker on which to list it.) I thought I got it for a good price at the time... not great but good. Seems like a stone bargain now.

    002_zps6d2f341d.jpg

    Pardon the awful quality of this photo. I usually do better.

    It amazes me that a 'fake' MP5-looking .22's stamped out of old beer cans... are selling for more than superb Remington 512T rifles, another great bargain in a .22 bolt gun. Then again, such market prices, lets us afford the good stuff.... Don't overlook the Winchester 69A, either. A delightful little .22. Sort of a budget Model 52 Sporter, superbly accurate and still selling for reasonable $$.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    Last edited:
    I finally picked up the RIAC Model 70 Van Orden rifle this evening. I have attached a couple of very quick (rather poor quality) photos.
    As soon as I get the chance, I want to dismount the rifle from the stock and do some quality inside-and-out photos, which I will post here in the hope of drawing comments from the followers of this forum about how the gun in its present form appears in relation to other Van Orden Sniper rifles they may have examined.
    At this point I can say that the barrel is free floated and the fore end screw is a dummy (Winchester themselves did this on occasion with their Varmint rifles - which also had Medium Heavy barrels). I'll be curious about whether there is any bedding compound on the inside.
    Van Orden Sniper-02.jpgVan Orden Sniper-01.jpg
     
    Brought this back up in the hope that Winchester70 would have more detailed pics and commentary. By the way 70, I think your purchase was a hell of a buy.
     
    Thanks for the note. I posted additional photos and description on a separate thread on 5/25 and copied it below. I'm still very interested in any feedback from members who have personal experience with these rifles.

    I've attached a composite .pdf file of some better quality photos of the Van Orden Sniper rifle (S/N 351439) sold on Rock Island Auctions May 3rd. Also, I have a bigger .pdf file containing additional detail photos of the action and stock with the gun disassembled, but its about 4 MB - so too big to post here. If you (or any other member) would like to send me a PM with an e-mail address I'll forward the larger photo collection to you. Maybe somebody with more computer savvy that I possess can post that file to a third-party server so anyone who wants can see it.

    Having had the rifle out of the stock, my observations are:

    BARRELED ACTION: The action is standard mid-1950's Model 70 "Heavy Weight Target" (Catalog No. G7044C). Clip slotted receiver (standard on all 30-06 M70 target models from 1937-1963), factory drilled & tapped on top of receiver/bridge and left rear (for receiver sight). The barrel is 24" medium heavy contour, under chamber barrel date stamp '30-06 55' (for 1955 manufacture of the barrel), standard exposed roll markings. This one has what Roger Rule refers to as a "second variation" target barrel, as it has a 3/8" dovetail at the muzzle to accept the front sight mounting block (as opposed to the two 6-48 holes that defined the "third variation" target barrel). There is no provision on the underside of the barrel to accept a fore end stock screw.

    SIGHTS: Lyman 77 globe front sight, Lyman 48WH receiver sight, Lyman-type telescope sight blocks on barrel and receiver ring.

    STOCK: The original literature that accompanied these rifles from Evaluators Ltd (shown p. 101 of Senich's "The One-Round War) described the stock as "dense walnut 4-position Sniper Stock with length of pull, drop and pitch approximating that of the U.S. Rifle cal 30 M1903A1; stock smooth finished and drenched to saturation with linseed oil, without checkering or lacquer". The stock dimensions on S/N 351439 seem to match the M1903A1 type 'C' stock pretty well: LOP 13.0" (M70 standard stocks were 13.5"), drop at heel about 1.4" (standard M70 stocks were closer to 2.5"), butt angle about 90 degrees (greater than the M70 standard stock). The butt plate is M70 standard rifle checkered steel with protrusion at top inlet into the stock. The stock is of course uncheckered and has an oil finish. 1 1/4" standard Winchester sling swivels. The fore end dimensions look pretty close to M70 Standard rifle. There is a provision for the fore end barrel screw in the stock (like the Standard rifle stocks), which on the Van Orden rifle is filled by a shortened stock screw with an inset escutcheon in the barrel channel (as the barrel is not dovetailed to accept a fore end screw).

    The only thing that seems 'non-factory' to me is that the barrel channel is free floated (enough to easily pass a dollar bill). I'm not aware that the Winchester factory ever really 'free floated' anything prior to 1963. On the other hand, the Evaluators limited literature indicates that these rifles were match tuned at the shop prior to sale and "warranted ready as received for competition without further modification other than the determination of the user's zero." So maybe that modification was done at the shop prior to sale?

    If anybody has any knowledge of what work was done on the Van Orden rifles at Evaluators Ltd, I would love to know.

    Thanks
     

    Attachments

    • M70 Van Orden Sniper composite-1A1.pdf
      283.5 KB · Views: 69
    Very nice! Would you mind telling me if the barrels are free floated and the actions glass bedded?
    The one I have is not glass bedded but there appears to be a small amount of bedding compound around the tang that was added without removing any wood. The recoil lug and flat bedding surface directly behind it have no bedding compound at all. As for the barrel channel, one can easily pass a dollar bill between the stock and barrel along its entire length (since the fore end bedding screw in the stock is a dummy - does not attach to the barrel).
     
    Very nice! Would you mind telling me if the barrels are free floated and the actions glass bedded?
    The one I have is not glass bedded but there appears to be a small amount of bedding compound around the tang that was added without removing any wood. The recoil lug and flat bedding surface directly behind it have no bedding compound at all. As for the barrel channel, one can easily pass a dollar bill between the stock and barrel along its entire length (since the fore end bedding screw in the stock is a dummy - does not attach to the barrel).

    I was hoping you'd show up again. Mind if I bug you some more about Winchester rifles? The Rock Island Auctions September auction features some unusual Winchester Model 70 rifles that have caught my attention. They have one Featherweight .358 and two Standard rifles in 7mm. All three have straight grip stocks. I did not know that Winchester offered straight grip stocks on Model 70s, having never seen one before. The Featherweight and one 7mm have raised combs. The other 7mm has a straight comb. Were these options on the Model 70 or did someone take a file to the pistol grips of these stocks? All three appear to be post war judging by safeties. Since it reminds of the 1903 Springfield, I'd like to find one in 30-06 with the raised comb.

    As a point of interest more relevant to this thread, they also have a Target model 30-06 and a Bull Gun .300 H&H, both with the original shipping crates. And with the stock on that Bull Gun, I'd soooo be buyer if I had the money.
     
    In his 1982 book, Roger Rule shows photos of a couple of M70 Winchesters with straight grip stocks, which apparently were available on special order (but never catalogued). Both Monte Carlo and straight comb versions with straight grips. So there must be a handful of original ones out there. I have never seen a real one up close.

    I should probably reserve comment on the "originality" of specific RIA lots, lest I be cited for libel. But I assume that I am able to post my opinion as long as it is clearly labeled as PERSONAL OPINION (freedom of speech and all that...)

    I have concerns about M70s that RIA describes as "professionally refurbished/refinished" in their description of condition. My opinion is that "refurbished" can mean "remanufactured" (rebarreled and/or restocked) as well as refinished. Look very closely, for example, at the close up photos in the RIA on-line catalog of the barrel markings on lots #284 (straight grip MC comb featherweight 358 Win); #479 (straight grip MC comb standard rifle 7M/M); and, #489 (straight grip low comb standard rifle 7M/M). Compare that to the photo of the roll markings on lot #303 (an original M70 7M/M carbine) or lot #3294 (your Bull Gun). The manufacturer/address information on M70 barrels was roll marked - the letters generally have crisp square edges. The "professionally refurbished/refinished" guns look different, i.e. those markings do not appear to have been applied with Westbrook and Noble roll marking dies.

    Based on the photos, lot #3294 looks original to me. I've generally found RIA's condition description to be pretty accurate (even if they do stoop to using words like "refurbished"). I do not think they pass off refinished guns as original finish. The only flaw with that bull gun is that the target blocks have probably been replaced, as the guns were originally shipped with Lyman-type blocks that are concave on the top to facilitate use of metallic sights. Lots of people intending to use their gun with a scope replaced the Lyman blocks with flat topped Unertl blocks. Relatively easy to replace the blocks if originality is important (although 0.262" high Lyman-type blocks seem to be singularly difficult to find).

    If you're handy with wood working, I'd suggest buying a well used 1950s 30-06 standard rifle with MC comb stock, remove the pistol grip with a file, and rechecker in that M21 Winchester pattern. Would be a neat project rifle.
     
    In his 1982 book, Roger Rule shows photos of a couple of M70 Winchesters with straight grip stocks, which apparently were available on special order (but never catalogued). Both Monte Carlo and straight comb versions with straight grips. So there must be a handful of original ones out there. I have never seen a real one up close.

    I should probably reserve comment on the "originality" of specific RIA lots, lest I be cited for libel. But I assume that I am able to post my opinion as long as it is clearly labeled as PERSONAL OPINION (freedom of speech and all that...)

    I have concerns about M70s that RIA describes as "professionally refurbished/refinished" in their description of condition. My opinion is that "refurbished" can mean "remanufactured" (rebarreled and/or restocked) as well as refinished. Look very closely, for example, at the close up photos in the RIA on-line catalog of the barrel markings on lots #284 (straight grip MC comb featherweight 358 Win); #479 (straight grip MC comb standard rifle 7M/M); and, #489 (straight grip low comb standard rifle 7M/M). Compare that to the photo of the roll markings on lot #303 (an original M70 7M/M carbine) or lot #3294 (your Bull Gun). The manufacturer/address information on M70 barrels was roll marked - the letters generally have crisp square edges. The "professionally refurbished/refinished" guns look different, i.e. those markings do not appear to have been applied with Westbrook and Noble roll marking dies.

    Based on the photos, lot #3294 looks original to me. I've generally found RIA's condition description to be pretty accurate (even if they do stoop to using words like "refurbished"). I do not think they pass off refinished guns as original finish. The only flaw with that bull gun is that the target blocks have probably been replaced, as the guns were originally shipped with Lyman-type blocks that are concave on the top to facilitate use of metallic sights. Lots of people intending to use their gun with a scope replaced the Lyman blocks with flat topped Unertl blocks. Relatively easy to replace the blocks if originality is important (although 0.262" high Lyman-type blocks seem to be singularly difficult to find).

    If you're handy with wood working, I'd suggest buying a well used 1950s 30-06 standard rifle with MC comb stock, remove the pistol grip with a file, and rechecker in that M21 Winchester pattern. Would be a neat project rifle.

    Thank you for the help and information sir.
     
    Win 70,
    The non-scoped rifle is civilian and not free-floated, nor glass bedded. The scoped rifle is "US Property", free-floated with minute evidence of glass bedding. The non-scoped rifle is for sale.
    Harley
     
    Win 70,
    The non-scoped rifle is civilian and not free-floated, nor glass bedded. The scoped rifle is "US Property", free-floated with minute evidence of glass bedding. The non-scoped rifle is for sale.
    Harley

    Thank you for the information.

    Did both of your rifles come through Evaluator's Ltd? One civilian-sold and the other sold to US Military for marksmanship competition? Only reason I ask is that I'm curious about what work Evaluators Ltd did on the guns they special ordered from Winchester before they sold them as Van Orden "Sniper" or "Special Target" rifles. The Van Orden rifle I have has a free floated barrel and what looks like a very small amount of bedding compound. I also happen to have several strictly original civilian pre-64 Model 70 National Match, Target Models, and Bull Guns. None of them has either bedding or a free floated barrel. So I suspect that the barrel channel modification on my Van Orden rifle was done after it left the factory, possibly by Evaluators Ltd and possibly by the end user?

    Appreciate any thoughts.
     
    This is going to be a difficult post for me because I am about on fire about MisterRidge's posts questioning whether Lou actually bought the rifle and whether JoeDPPD had actually had any contact with the original purchaser and/or had ever shot the rifle in the company of Doctor Dawson. After this "cynical" poster, (his own words), accused two of our members of being dishonest in their claims, I will keep a close eye on MisterRidge in the future, as the rest of us probably will also. Point number one, Lou actually did buy the gun and does own it, regardless of MisterRidge's suspicions to the contrary. Point number two, JoeDPPD obviously has shot this gun in the company of my old friend, Doctor Victor Dawson, since he described him to the tee as a dedicated highpower shooter and a respected member of the Navy-Marine Corps (very heavy) weapons research and approval teams, probably bogged down by his degrees from Harvard, MIT, and other respected institutions. There you go, MisterRidge, Victor Dawson was a shooting buddy of mine for many of his 86 years before his untimely death in 2013. I was employed at the same agency as his son in law for many years and respect him as much as I do my old friend Victor. Dr. Dawson's resume is outstanding as is his interest and participation in high power and clay target shooting, as well as the Izaak Walton League of America, and its Bethesda-Chevy Chase Maryland Chapter . My connection with this forum is my purchase of a wonderful Van Orden sniper at a local Maryland auction a week ago, a gun and purchase that I have described on the Winchester Collectors forum a day or three ago. Imagine my surprise when I found a post on the snipershide forum that not only gave me a bunch of information on my new purchase (220498 Van Orden Model 70) and information on the Van Orden gun that my old friend Vic Dawson purchased in the fifties. I will wait for some comment from MisterRidge about his strange posts.
     
    Draftee... since I posted in this thread several times... I read your post in interest... and went back and read the entire thread. I don't see anything particularly controversial... except some folks asking interesting questions and other folks posting back reasonable answers.

    So not sure why you are 'on fire.' But looks to me like some pretty academic questions were asked, respectfully answered, and we all learned something. No need for a flame war... even if some of the questions may have seemed un-artful, everything here seems pretty much like a bunch of gentlemen asking (and answering) reasonable questions... with some reasonable and learned answers.

    Anyway, welcome aboard. Vintage is a great section and hope you find a good home here... among enthusiasts of vintage sniper (and by extension target) rifles.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    i picked up a pre mod 70 target not long ago in 220 swift all orginal no target sights with a unerdel scope and a hand stop the ser # is in the low 2 digits a collector friend of mine said it was the nicest he ever seen i will have to post it one day for you guys to look at would really like to know what its worth i have 2 others a 3006 lightweight and a 338 Alaskan. i 6really have the bug to have a 3006 sniper built to shoot i do have anther unerdel 10x to go on it. you cant beat those old 70s.
     
    This is going to be a difficult post for me because I am about on fire about MisterRidge's posts questioning whether Lou actually bought the rifle and whether JoeDPPD had actually had any contact with the original purchaser and/or had ever shot the rifle in the company of Doctor Dawson. After this "cynical" poster, (his own words), accused two of our members of being dishonest in their claims, I will keep a close eye on MisterRidge in the future, as the rest of us probably will also. Point number one, Lou actually did buy the gun and does own it, regardless of MisterRidge's suspicions to the contrary. Point number two, JoeDPPD obviously has shot this gun in the company of my old friend, Doctor Victor Dawson, since he described him to the tee as a dedicated highpower shooter and a respected member of the Navy-Marine Corps (very heavy) weapons research and approval teams, probably bogged down by his degrees from Harvard, MIT, and other respected institutions. There you go, MisterRidge, Victor Dawson was a shooting buddy of mine for many of his 86 years before his untimely death in 2013. I was employed at the same agency as his son in law for many years and respect him as much as I do my old friend Victor. Dr. Dawson's resume is outstanding as is his interest and participation in high power and clay target shooting, as well as the Izaak Walton League of America, and its Bethesda-Chevy Chase Maryland Chapter . My connection with this forum is my purchase of a wonderful Van Orden sniper at a local Maryland auction a week ago, a gun and purchase that I have described on the Winchester Collectors forum a day or three ago. Imagine my surprise when I found a post on the snipershide forum that not only gave me a bunch of information on my new purchase (220498 Van Orden Model 70) and information on the Van Orden gun that my old friend Vic Dawson purchased in the fifties. I will wait for some comment from MisterRidge about his strange posts.

    This thread was 3 1/2 years ago. The folks in question aren't coming back. While I understand being a bit put off by comments of others, it's best you put the fire out as you don't need it burning a hole in you over nothing you can do something about. That said, I agree with sirhr, in that I didn't read into anything as derogatory.

    And, that said, I'm really enjoying this thread as we have people here with this kind of hardware.:cool: