we have found the same shooting 75 eld’s and 80 Berger’s. The dope is the sameup to about 600 yards. .223 Ackley is a fin round.
PRS Talk Velocity Sweet Spot For PRS?
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we have found the same shooting 75 eld’s and 80 Berger’s. The dope is the sameup to about 600 yards. .223 Ackley is a fin round.
I run a 6 Troll, which is a 6x45ackley, or more generically, 6mm-223, Ackley (6 TCU almost). 87vmax @ 2940fps. Cheap to load, brass is free, fun to shoot.
Use it as a club training gun. Drop is good, but not as good wind ability, so helps me be more consistent on wind calls and holds.
Use it as a club training gun. Drop is good, but not as good wind ability, so helps me be more consistent on wind calls and holds.
@bschneiderheinze
Do you shoot anything other than the 80s?
How fast are you pushing the 80 ELDs.
And I agree that with a stiff 223 load you can match or come close to a slow/moderate 6mm load for a ways.
Let me know when you get to 15k centerfire and 20k+ Rimfire a year.
If you can’t feel a difference in recoil from a .223 and a 6mm, you’re doing something wrong.
Keep the 15,000 spent primers 20k rimfire and I might believe you. Honestly there’s not much difference between 8000 and 15000 and pretty sure after 5000 I would think you had it figured out. That’s just last year so I have done 15,000 total thank you for your advice. Come out and shoot with us some time.
Boys boys.... Calm down. And line up. Let's see who is biggest.
You don't get good by not practicing. Top level race drivers seperate themselves by practicing more, and practicing the right way. Same for rifles. Sitting at a range and sending rounds down range to say "I shoot more than you" doesn't mean dick. (Heh.. pun).
Dry fire helps a ton, live fire is best. I guess it comes down to what is important to you. Also how much available time and money you have.
You don't get good by not practicing. Top level race drivers seperate themselves by practicing more, and practicing the right way. Same for rifles. Sitting at a range and sending rounds down range to say "I shoot more than you" doesn't mean dick. (Heh.. pun).
Dry fire helps a ton, live fire is best. I guess it comes down to what is important to you. Also how much available time and money you have.
Point being, people think a few thousand rounds a year is a lot.
It’s not. Tiger Woods for example, in his prime would win a major, then still go hit 300 balls at driving range while everyone else was at home.
This is no different than golf, pool, poker, baseball, etc. You need hundreds of thousands or proper reps to actually get good at it.
The top shooters we have now won’t hold a candle to the top shooters in 10 years.
You’re the one who decided your 8,000 gave you some clairvoyant way to say your .223 recoils the same as 6. It doesnt. Zero to do with fundamentals. Also, my 15k is last year as well. Pretty easy to do if you shoot 300/week. And if you think that doubling your round count (properly and not just sending rounds) doesn’t make a difference, you’re also on the wrong track there as well.
If that was the case, guys with great fundamentals wouldn’t be picking 6 over a 6.5.
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There is absolutely a difference in 6mm vs 223. I shoot a light barreled 223 with no brake for training. I shoot an MTU contour with a gen 3 LB in a foundation in either 6 dasher or 243AI for matches. I can watch trace from prone with all of them. The 243AI definitely recoils more with a heavy gun and good brake than the unbraked 223 with a savage varmint contour barrel with no break. The 6 dasher is close, but a little less. Add the same break to the 223 and a red Ryder bb gun would have more recoil.
I personally notice a lot better ability to see trace with slower bullets. At around 2950 I can start to see it consistently. At around 2825 or so I can see it on around 90% of my shots. This is shooting a gun over 18 lbs with 6mm bullets in the 105-115 weight class.
Worrying about a bit of extra speed has little merit. Shooting a 105 at 2900 will result in a miss if the wind call is off 2 mph on a 2 moa target at 1000 yds. Shooting a 115 dtac at 3050 will result in the same miss. Both bullets will hit if you are off by only 1 mph. If you can see trace and get a correction you can get hits following the miss. If you see nothing, you will likely just continue to miss.
Lastly, keeping a 243AI shooting sub half moa for 5 shots is a job. Even a bad load in a BR based cartridge is going to shoot half moa in my experience. I have never actually done load development for my Dasher barrels. I picked a speed and a seating depth. Shot groups, shot over the chrono to check sd and ran it. Every time. Half MOA or better. SD of 10 or less. The easy button.
I personally notice a lot better ability to see trace with slower bullets. At around 2950 I can start to see it consistently. At around 2825 or so I can see it on around 90% of my shots. This is shooting a gun over 18 lbs with 6mm bullets in the 105-115 weight class.
Worrying about a bit of extra speed has little merit. Shooting a 105 at 2900 will result in a miss if the wind call is off 2 mph on a 2 moa target at 1000 yds. Shooting a 115 dtac at 3050 will result in the same miss. Both bullets will hit if you are off by only 1 mph. If you can see trace and get a correction you can get hits following the miss. If you see nothing, you will likely just continue to miss.
Lastly, keeping a 243AI shooting sub half moa for 5 shots is a job. Even a bad load in a BR based cartridge is going to shoot half moa in my experience. I have never actually done load development for my Dasher barrels. I picked a speed and a seating depth. Shot groups, shot over the chrono to check sd and ran it. Every time. Half MOA or better. SD of 10 or less. The easy button.
I have also noticed 243ai can be a bit of a wild ride to keep consistency with group size. Good to see it wasn't just me. I ran mine 2806fps last season, and running a bit faster this one, but also have something else I've been messing with which will hopefully help with trace, exactly as you described.
I prefer to run my 6BRA at around 2820 with a Berger 109. I used to chase speed then went with slower crowd.
tagging in!
The 223 is all about throat length.
I'm running 88 ELDs at 2900 FPS on a full length resized case. (not just bumped) No pressure concerns at all.
I seat them to 2.625 with my new chamber. It has a tight free bore and a tight 0.248 neck making every effort to get the bullet started into the rifling straight.
I can do the same with 90 grain A-Tips and get an easy 1/2 MOA at 100 and closer to 1/4 MOA with a good position.
Ballistics are all of what you can get from a 6 Dasher, with the exception of consistent muzzle velocity. I doubt I can match Dasher for that.
I'm in covid lock down here and have not been able to get out to the range for the last three weeks, but next time out I'll be running fire formed brass and see how my velocities settle down.
My other barrel has a long throat as well but not this long. Bullets for that seated to around 2.580" and I found longer is better. I'm focusing on exposing more of the bearing surface in the freebore to ensure bullet alignment. The prior barrel had a no turn neck and a larger freebore and the 90 A Tips would not shoot well. This new design resolves that. I already posted the reamer elsewhere on SH.
Oh ya... recoil is exactly didly squat.
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How does throat length influence recoil? I don’t think I’ve heard that before.
Somewhat agree, but I think he was just making an observation that recoil isn't shit after he was done going on about throat length and velocity. I don't think he was drawing a correlation between the two.
No, you misunderstood..
A long throat length is the key to getting both the 2900 fps speed and accuracy for heavies in a 223. Not correlating to recoil.
Recoil is light simply because its a light bullet with a small powder charge, compared to 6mms.
Obviously recoil is calculated by both the bullet weight and powder charge combined. So if you want to reduce recoil, you need to reduce the weight of one or the other. With this in mind, the 223 is just about as low on the recoil scale as a guy can go and still be effective if properly configured.
Just note that this configuration is not intended to run in PRS tactical division. It's open class because the 88s and 90s are over the tactical weight limit for 223.
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Ok I got this, I swore I read that differently, I thought you had recoil in that sentence? Did you edit that line? I thought I read it twice because it said “the recoil of 223 is all about throat length.” Thus that’s why I asked my previous question, “how does throat length influence recoil.”
Maybe I had a couple of beers and misread it. Or maybe you edited it. Either way doesn’t appear you believe that’s the case, so it doesn’t matter.
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No I never edited that point. No worries.
The entire reason people started shouting slower was to see the shot better. Naturally going slower with lower pressure and smaller calibers does this, but there is a point where it becomes harder to see impacts at distance. Not from a “hey RO I hit the plate” standpoint, but actually reading the plate to clean up the next shot. For me, I gain very little in terms of recoil management going below the 2900-3000 FPS realm with a 6mm. I also have enough energy on plate to be able read it at 1000. Yea in perfect conditions you can see a 223 at 1000, but when there’s wind or mirage, the higher energy rounds are easier to see. I personally think the 2900-3000 window with a high bc 6mm is the sweet spot. In a pure field match a 6.5 could offer a slight advantage for plate reading if conditions got tough though. I don’t even really pay attention to wind differences, they are too little to notice. It’s 100% about being able to see the plate AND read the plate to make a good correction.
They see the shot better at lower velocities not because its going slower, but because less energy equals less recoil.
As for calling the shot, ranges are using hit indicator lights for the longer targets these days, so it reduces that argument.
That aside... 88-90 grains has that much of a splash difference to a 105? 11 percent, I'll risk it. Your choice though. I agree the 6.5s are way easier to see, but 105s vs 88s is not so much.
As for calling the shot, ranges are using hit indicator lights for the longer targets these days, so it reduces that argument.
That aside... 88-90 grains has that much of a splash difference to a 105? 11 percent, I'll risk it. Your choice though. I agree the 6.5s are way easier to see, but 105s vs 88s is not so much.
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Absolutely, I have said that repeatedly.
Gosh i can’t tell a difference between 2800 and 2900 in terms of recoil. I think that’s maybe a ridiculous claim to be honest. But if anyone thinks they’re gaining an advantage by all means do what work for you. I just know people still win and do very well blasting 6cm at 2950. I think the quality of glass is a much bigger impact in terms of catching ones own trace/splash. The average guy on the line is bringing better and better glass.
Some of it is about recoil. A lot of it is about having a few extra hundredths of a second for your vision and brain to process what you are seeing before it is gone.
Just curious, what barrel length to get those MV out of 223 with 88 or 90 grain bullets?
I see that’s .02 at 750yds with 2859 vs 2959, and .05 at a grand. But that does give up .2 wind at a grand.
Fair enough, at least that’s a reasonable thing to believe is helpful. But there’s a slight trade off. I think some of guys are going to like 2750? End of the day whatever someone believes is advantage, go for it!
My old barrel could hit 2900 fps and that was 26 inches and I used fire formed brass with a minimal shoulder bump. Jammed with OAL of 2.580"
My new barrel is a bit longer just under 27 inches, so pressures are lower and I can hit 2900 fps with full length resized brass. Even faster when fire formed with a light shoulder bump. Now they are seated to jam with an OAL of 2.625"
I was out today running 88s with 25.6 grains of Varget, BR4s. Temperature was 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
Speeds were...
2932
2924
2921
2917
2919
Here's an article from back in 2008 where they were testing heavies with 223. Jump to page 16.
I didn't notice any mention of the COAL anywhere... probably shorter than I'm running.
http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Winter Spring 2008 Edition.pdf
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With 105 hybrids
I have a nice consistent node starting at 30.2 4895 with my 6BRA - 2900fps out of a 28” Bart.
Fire forming virgin brass at around a grain less gets me 2820, also with 4895, but I picked 29gr for an even 2800.
I wish I could remember where I posted this before, but I guess I'll just have to retype it. I have a 115 DTAC going 3050 fps at 37 F and 28.7"HG pressure (typical for me 243AI load). At 1000 yds with a 10 mph crosswind (it includes spin drift, but we'll do all the calls in the same direction so they are comparable) I have 1.64 mils of wind drift. At 9 mph I have 1.46 mils and at 8 mph I have 1.28 mils of wind drift.
With a 6 Dasher running a 108 Berger at 2843 I get these numbers: 10 mph is 2.01 mils, 9 mph is 1.78 mils, and 8 mph is 1.55 mils.
1 moa is .29 mils. If I miscalculate the wind by 1mph at 1000 yards with either of these 2 setups at on a typical 2 moa target, I get a hit. If I miscalculate by 2 mph in the same scenario, I miss. Even though the difference of 1.64 mils to 2.01 mils in a 10 mph wind looks significant, It doesn't even increase your margin of error for making a wind call by 1 mph on a typical size target for prs. Therefore, if there are advantages to be gained by seeing trace, you are giving up very little between the 2 in terms of wind drift.
The real compromise comes in the form of energy on target as stated by lte82. There is a perceivable difference even between a 105 going 3170fps vs a 115 going 3050fps out of my 243 Ackley. The 115 hits significantly harder and has significantly more splash on misses. Slow the 105 down to 2800 or 2900 and the difference grows.
What you see down range is effected by a whole list of things. Glass quality, recoil management, muzzlebrake effectiveness, your individual ability to keep your eyes open through the brake concussion, TOF, the weight and balance point of the gun, the amount of splash created by the bullet, etc. It is a balancing act to figure out where the sweet spot is. Based on what people are doing that are winning and what I personally see from shooting setups on both ends of the prs spectrum, I would say the sweet spot is between 2750 and 2900 with a 6 br improved variant level of recoil. It allows for seeing trace well without giving up too much on target energy. Also, the exact sweet spot is going to be slightly different for everyone based on individual differences in reaction time, etc.
