Vintage Winchester Model 70: 30.06 target rifle w/ Unertl Scope

Thedentonmare

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Have a look at this beauty, she's a safe queen, dragged out to the range once to put through her paces...

Pretty much just like Carlos Hathcock would have run in the jungles no?

That Lyman scope sure does have some very short eye relief, but the system is neat to see and shoot.

I do hope you enjoy, let me know if you have any questions.
model70_2.jpg
 
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chutinlead

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At least the scope will give a little with that spring when it hits your face lol. Awesome looking rifle
 

Random Guy

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Nice looking rifle. It looks like its in great shape.

Pretty much just like Carlos Hathcock would have run in the jungles no?
Yes, similar except for two details. The USMC removed the recoil springs on the Unertls as they thought it would create a reliability issue, or perhaps get snagged by vegetation in the field? (This goes back to WWII M1903 sniper with the 8X Unertl - the springs were removed back then - see pic 1 for a scope in Vietnam.

Second item is that although both the "fat" Marksman stock and "skinny" sporter stocks were used in Vetnam, Carlos Hathcock preferred the lighter weight of the thinner sporter stock, per his commanding officer, Major Jim Land (ret). Pic #2 shows both stock types in Vietnam. Last pic is my replica with 10x Unertl, and it has a Marksman stock, although it was sanded somewhat so its not quite as wide/fat.
 

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Thedentonmare

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Nice looking rifle. It looks like its in great shape.



Yes, similar except for two details. The USMC removed the recoil springs the Unertls as they thought it would create a relibility issue (this goes back to WWII M1903 sniper with the 8X Unertl, as the springs were removed back then - see pic 1 for an example).

Second item is that although both the "fat" Marksman stock and "skinny" sporter stocks were used in Vetnam, Carlos Hathcock preferred the lightly weight of the thinner sporter stock, per his commanding officer, Major Jim Land (ret). Pic #2 shows both stock types in Vietnam. Last pic is my replica with 10x Unertl, and it has a Marksman stock, although it was sanded somewhat so its not quite as wide/fat.
Wonderful history.. I love learning about that time period and these bold men & their weapons of choice.

I can confirm that this marksman stock sure is heavy, phew!

The scope is actually a Lyman, whoops - but similar.
 

Frank Green

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First picture. The rifle on the top was a Van Orden built Model 70 sniper rifle. The rifle that is pictured upside down is Carlo's sniper rifle. The rifles had sporter stocks. It's my understanding that the stocks where the original Model 70 match rifle stocks. The original match rifles used a sporter contour barrel. When the rifle was rebarreled with the heavier contour barrel the barrel channel was opened up. I don't recall Ed saying Carlos liked the sporter stock because of it being lighter in weight. I could be wrong.

The middle picture is Carlo's rifle and a Mosin that Ed Land brought back from Vietnam.

The bottom pic. After work we went back to my house. Ed let my son check the rifles out as well. That's him looking thru the Unertl on Carlos rifle.

I have to thank Ed Land III for bringing the guns up to the shop a couple of years ago for us to check out. I got to bore scope the barrels with Ed and go thru all the documents that Ed brought along also! Truly a privilege! Thanks Ed!!!!!!!!!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 

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Random Guy

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Frank, thanks for that post(!). I had heard that he had that M70 rifle but I had never seen it before now. That is really neat.
Do you recall if that rifle had the original 24" WRA medium heavy barrel, or I presume an unmarked 26" match barrel (Douglas maybe?)
I have read that both flavors showed up in Vietnam, hence the question. Thanks again for pics of that historic firearm.

(Pic is circa May 2018. He was kind-enough to allow me this pic at a vintage rifle match at Quantico. Rifle is my replica M70 as seen in this thread).
 

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pmclaine

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The saga of my M70 build continues.........

Fake China virus is victimizing me.
 

sandwarrior

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Luckily I have lots of rifles, great patience and I am cheap.

Communication is steady.

I paid for a certain thing I expect that thing.

In the meantime I have bought up so much match 30-06 Ill be able to wear that Douglas out if ever completed.
I'd like to see you get that rifle ASAP! Not "if ever completed" Completed in a timely manner which he seems unwilling to get up and do!

I am wishing the best for you my friend, and hope that somehow an extra tiny little bit of karma will help.
 

Frank Green

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Frank, thanks for that post(!). I had heard that he had that M70 rifle but I had never seen it before now. That is really neat.
Do you recall if that rifle had the original 24" WRA medium heavy barrel, or I presume an unmarked 26" match barrel (Douglas maybe?)
I have read that both flavors showed up in Vietnam, hence the question. Thanks again for pics of that historic firearm.

(Pic is circa May 2018. He was kind-enough to allow me this pic at a vintage rifle match at Quantico. Rifle is my replica M70 as seen in this thread).
The barrel is a Winchester marked and is the 24” med. heavy contour.

Your welcome on posting the pic!

Later, Frank
 

Frank Green

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Question on this. Did the recoil spring slam the scope and make it take more abuse is why they removed it? Or, just noisy and in the way?
Most target shooters also removed the recoil spring. The beating the scope took on return was hard on the crosshairs as I understand it especially with heavy recoiling calibers.

So after each shot the scope slid back a little. You have to manually push the scope back up against the stop ring.
 

mjmd11

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Please tell me you meant to post this in the PX? ; )
DW

A little humor , which was missed I guess, sorry. Trying to identify with the poster, Thedentonmare, as a fellow admirer and collector of M70 target rifles and complimenting him on his rifle by saying by saying send it to me , meaning , I would also be proud to own that rifle too I Do I need another one.. absolutely not. How the statement ended up in the picture is unknown to me. Just noticed that.
 
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sandwarrior

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Please tell me you meant to post this in the PX? ; )
DW
It was clear to a number of us it was a joke...

Then again, yankin' someone new's chain that he should have posted that in the PX could be humerous too. Along the lines of finding some flightline...

Added: Looking I may have missed delta's humor in that he thought you should post your rifles, mjmd11, in the PX?
 
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deltawiskey

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It was clear to a number of us it was a joke...

Then again, yankin' someone new's chain that he should have posted that in the PX could be humerous too. Along the lines of finding some flightline...

Added: Looking I may have missed delta's humor in that he thought you should post your rifles, mjmd11, in the PX?
Yes, I was joking... it was a poor attempt at humor.
He posted a picture of some grail rifles and I was wishing they were posted in the px so I could buy them.
DW
 

sandwarrior

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Yes, I was joking... it was a poor attempt at humor.
He posted a picture of some grail rifles and I was wishing they were posted in the px so I could buy them.
DW
Actually, it's kind of funny. I didn't get it until I posted. Then thought....what if Delta was joking? Aha!...yes he was. Not a poor attempt, a good attempt in that it took me a bit to get it. 😁 😜
 
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mjmd11

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First picture. The rifle on the top was a Van Orden built Model 70 sniper rifle. The rifle that is pictured upside down is Carlo's sniper rifle. The rifles had sporter stocks. It's my understanding that the stocks where the original Model 70 match rifle stocks. The original match rifles used a sporter contour barrel. When the rifle was rebarreled with the heavier contour barrel the barrel channel was opened up. I don't recall Ed saying Carlos liked the sporter stock because of it being lighter in weight. I could be wrong.

The middle picture is Carlo's rifle and a Mosin that Ed Land brought back from Vietnam.

The bottom pic. After work we went back to my house. Ed let my son check the rifles out as well. That's him looking thru the Unertl on Carlos rifle.

I have to thank Ed Land III for bringing the guns up to the shop a couple of years ago for us to check out. I got to bore scope the barrels with Ed and go thru all the documents that Ed brought along also! Truly a privilege! Thanks Ed!!!!!!!!!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Frank:
Do you remember the serials on the van orden and Carlos weapons? Was the 24" barrel Win or a replacement? Was the Van Orden Property marked? and the final question. Were there taps for a front sight base on the Carlos barrel?
You make great barrels.
Mike
 
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Toftwo

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Question on this. Did the recoil spring slam the scope and make it take more abuse is why they removed it? Or, just noisy and in the way?
I think I read that the springs rusted very quickly in the WWII Pacific theater and that dirt and debris could get caught in them. so they removed them from the rifles to help protect the optic. I’d imagine they’d do the same in RVN.
 

Forgetful Coyote

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Luckily I have lots of rifles, great patience and I am cheap.

Communication is steady.

I paid for a certain thing I expect that thing.

In the meantime I have bought up so much match 30-06 Ill be able to wear that Douglas out if ever completed.
Who’s building your M70?
 

Frank Green

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Frank:
Do you remember the serials on the van orden and Carlos weapons? Was the 24" barrel Win or a replacement? Was the Van Orden Property marked? and the final question. Were there taps for a front sight base on the Carlos barrel?
You make great barrels.
Mike
Carlos barrel was d&t for the front sight block and was a factory Win barrel. Just the standard Win. target barrel.

I don't recall what if any markings etc...was on the Van Orden built rifle but it did have some sort of a front sight block mount on it. I can see it in one of my pictures that I have.

Sorry don't recall the s/n on the Van Orden rifle. Carlo's s/n was a 5 digit number. I want to say it was 46xxx but I don't recall exactly. Carlos rifle had the prewar type safety lever on the bolt where as the Van Orden if I recall correctly had the later pre64 style safety lever on it.

I could ask some of the details but it might be a few days before I would get an answer so you would have to be patient.

Later, Frank
 
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Frank Green

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Yep....I'd say that's copper.

Speaking of the bores of the barrels. Carlos barrel was actually in pretty good shape over all. Could use a touch up on the crown. The Van Orden rifles bore was in much worse shape from a barrel makers perspective. Cleaning, roughness, muzzle crown etc...

Yes I had to look at them while the rifles where here.
 

AMG04

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Nothing as nice as the OP's rifle, but I got my hands on a Pre-64 Model 70 Target with one of Frank's barrels last weekend.

Threw some Talleys on it so I can shoot it this weekend (forgive me... please), but over time I'd like to finish it in a more traditional configuration.
 

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Forgetful Coyote

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Yep....I'd say that's copper.

Speaking of the bores of the barrels. Carlos barrel was actually in pretty good shape over all. Could use a touch up on the crown. The Van Orden rifles bore was in much worse shape from a barrel makers perspective. Cleaning, roughness, muzzle crown etc...

Yes I had to look at them while the rifles where here.
Do you know how the pre war M70 barrels were rifled?
 

Frank Green

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Do you know how the pre war M70 barrels were rifled?
I want to say broach cut. Could’ve been single point cut. Either way Winchester didn’t do anything special to them. No lapping etc....the only difference between a sporter contour and a target contour was the contour. Nothing specifically was done to make the heavier target barrels better in any way.
 

pmclaine

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