I am in the final stages of building a brass annealing machine and need timing information to get the rotational speeds set. For a single torch set-up, how much time in the flame do you anneal 223, 30 and 338 cartridges? How about the same for a two torch set-up? Are two torch heads really necessary? hanks in advance!
- Thread starter cobbonthecorn
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Your best bet IMHO is to get the right temperature Templaq.
Almost every ones times will differ because flame temps will vary from types of torches, the torch setting and gas left in the tank.
Have you read Ken Light's article on 6mmbr?
Almost every ones times will differ because flame temps will vary from types of torches, the torch setting and gas left in the tank.
Have you read Ken Light's article on 6mmbr?
No one can really give you accurate times. Each batch of brass from even the same manufacturer is of different hardness and will require more/less annealing.
Yup, this is one of those threads that has the potential to either liberate people's knowledge in regard to annealing, or keep it in darkness.
Annealing time is not only different due to brass qualities, but also due to individual flame temps, and the atmosphere where you are annealing. With that said, there are some "rough estimates."
2-4 seconds for double torch, 6-8 seconds for single torch.
Annealing time is not only different due to brass qualities, but also due to individual flame temps, and the atmosphere where you are annealing. With that said, there are some "rough estimates."
2-4 seconds for double torch, 6-8 seconds for single torch.
ORKAN- Thank you! I get the fact that everything matters, I just need to know a ballpark so I know if I can use automated feed system based on mechanical linkages or if I need solenoids. With one torch I can use mechanical linkages. I will post the results of my project when it is complete.
p.s. I have read multiple threads and have become familiar with the process of setting temperatures, etc. If anyone has done 223 it would be interesting to know your cycle times. The machine being built likes slow speeds so larger cartridges should be easy. But as it speeds up the automatic loading gets a bit tricky. Again, thanks in advance!
uh, 2-4 seconds is only a 100% margin of error.
My experience using the Bench-Source annealer with two torches has been 4.2 to 4.4 seconds for 308 Lapua brass. The timing source on it is variable by .1 seconds so I easily tune in for the brass I am annealing.
Again, these are my results only.
My experience using the Bench-Source annealer with two torches has been 4.2 to 4.4 seconds for 308 Lapua brass. The timing source on it is variable by .1 seconds so I easily tune in for the brass I am annealing.
Again, these are my results only.
2-4 seconds isn't a "margin of error." That's how wide a swing you can have from day to day, brass to brass. Go anneal some thin wall winchester 308 and get back to me. I bet you'll be closer to 2 than 4, and that's not even accounting differences in torch, gas, and AO between our two setups.
That's also forgetting that the vast majority of people that anneal, over-anneal their brass.
Wrong choice of words I guess because I agree with what you're saying. Just basically trying to point out to the OP what I said initially was not meant to be smart ass. There really is no way to say how much heat it will take to get it right.
We can agree to agree. haha. Sorry for misunderstanding. 
Too much variation in doing it by time. Pressure in the tank, difference in adjusting the flame... Things change. Use a TempLac stick and get it right.
Temp paints such as that, indicate when the paint reaches x temperature... not necessarily when the brass reaches that temperature.
The mere asking of this question alarms me, and probably everyone else who knows how annealing works. There isn't a magic time, as it will take varying amounts of heat from case to case, brand to brand, and torch to torch. Use Templaq or get a non-contact IR thermometer, but please don't go by someone else's time under flame.
I should have also added an example: my .260 brass takes 5-7 seconds under single torch flame for Remington brand, or 12-15 seconds with Lapua. How far away is my flame? How hot is it burning? How fast is the case turning? Exactly.
Actually those thermometers have a reputation for not adequately measuring brass temp.
...and yet they're still a MUCH better option than asking for random times on the Internet.
I'd encourage you to get an IR thermometer and give it a try. You'll learn quickly. You'll either not be able to get a reading at all, or you'll get a false reading. What you will not get, is an accurate reading.
Yet this is hardly of any consequence, as you don't need temp paint or a thermometer to properly anneal cases.
If you are designing/building an all-caliber annealer, you probably should allow for needing more than just the normal 7-8 seconds for, eg, 308 brass. Ideally dwell time adjustment should be in equal increments over the complete range to avoid (eg) having the last time adjustment yield a much longer dwell than the previous adjustment . . . and much more than desired.
Given the day-to-day and within-a-run changes in gas pressure, gas valve condition, environmental conditions, brass type . . . one torch requires monitoring. And it must be quite fun keeping two torches adjusted to deliver enough but avoid too much temp/dwell time on each and every case.
My own experience with a regular consumer-grade IR temp gauge is it didn't work on brass in this application. Didn't read much above room temperature as that first case melted.
Given the day-to-day and within-a-run changes in gas pressure, gas valve condition, environmental conditions, brass type . . . one torch requires monitoring. And it must be quite fun keeping two torches adjusted to deliver enough but avoid too much temp/dwell time on each and every case.
My own experience with a regular consumer-grade IR temp gauge is it didn't work on brass in this application. Didn't read much above room temperature as that first case melted.
All, thank you for the inputs. I have design options that I think will work for 2 to 20 seconds, and 1 or 2 torch heads. You have confirmed that I will need the full range to be successful. Once the machine is up and running I'll share cost and design information, including why some of the choices were made. Thanks!
I don't know what you'd need 20 seconds on. That's an eternity in the flame. 10 seconds would be plenty.
Personally, I'm much happier running with one torch. I've tried single, double and even twin micro burners but now just use one and except that it takes a little longer. My annealer is an auto feeder so it doesn't really worry me about the extra time. I just find the time so critical with two burners, the difference between 4 seconds and 5 seconds is the difference between over done and under done on some cases. I find a leisurely 7-8 seconds much more consistent and easier to handle.
Just as a ball park time I find 7-8 secs for 308 type cases and 5-6 secs for .223 family cases. 6BR's run about 6-7secs (All Lapua cases, one pencil flame burner)
Just as a ball park time I find 7-8 secs for 308 type cases and 5-6 secs for .223 family cases. 6BR's run about 6-7secs (All Lapua cases, one pencil flame burner)
Orkan what is your technique?
Any one wanting to build a simple machine ,look at this one .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvI40Rl8Z3k
I use a couple of "dummies" for set up; cases I will never reload. I set the torch angles and height by sight for the case length I am annealing. I may use 650 tempilaq on the shoulder/body junction or not but I always use 400 tempilac at the case head to let me know I am not overheating there. When I get everything set and the torches are burning nice even blue flame I darken the room and watch as the dummy cases go thru the flame. That dull orange glow lets me know I am there. Some cases, like 17 Ackley Hornet take very little time but others like WW 7WSM take a lot longer.
Bottom line is that there seems to be as many opinions on how to do it as there are people doing it. But you do have to let the brass tell you when it is getting what it needs for proper anneal.
Bottom line is that there seems to be as many opinions on how to do it as there are people doing it. But you do have to let the brass tell you when it is getting what it needs for proper anneal.
Partially sacrifice one case, by leaving in flame until the flame color changes. Back off a couple tenths of a second or so and hammer through the entire batch. Flawless method, which doesn't require any special paint or thermometer, and will never risk ruining your brass.
Obviously an automated annealing machine of some kind is required for the best results here. I prefer the bench source unit.
Lots of details leading up to that point, but I'm assuming that's the part you were after.
Just about every "internet expert" on annealing will claim the brass is under-annealed... but I assure you I've vetted this with people much more qualified on the properties of metals and metal treatment than myself.Info so far is just what I was looking for... To an earlier question, the 20 seconds was just to demonstrate my range of control so far. As for the machine posted by ARNIE19, that is what I have started working on. Use straight sided cake pans instead, really simple and the circular run-out is relatively low. Just working the details of the feeder right now. It is hard to feed at lower cycle times. It was good to see the input from 1066. Just about what I suspected from reading other posts. I also had a good discussion with an engineer from one of the proane gas equipment companies. Much of the fiddling around with gas settings can be eliminated by choice of torch head, no dedicated regulator required. I will go into more detail once I prove out the machine across a number of cartridges.
I run with a single pencil flame burner that uses 22 grams of gas an hour. A 1lb disposable cylinder = around 450 grams or about 20 hours of annealing. At around 400 cases an hour it's quite efficient and I'm still on my first cylinder. The gas I use is a 70/30 mix of propane/butane and because of the slow steady burn rate I find I get no noticeable pressure drop due to decompression temperature drop.
I have tried regulators and external refillable larger cylinders but found no benefit. If I was annealing 1000 plus a week it might be worth considering.
My method to set the gas is to turn the torch on full, let it stabilise for a minute or two then turn it down just a touch to say 95%. I find the flame will stay consistent at that even after a long session.
DC motor speed control is now very simple and cheap with Pulse width modulation units freely available. Steady flame, vary the speed, very simple.
The laser temp gauges can work well but it's not just a case of pointing and taking a reading. All materials reflect the laser differently and this must be factored in.
The emissivity of cartridge brass (70/30) varies between .03 for polished brass to .61 for dirty oxidised brass. A laser gauge is handy to check for consistency but not very reliable for accurate temperature control.
Partially sacrifice one case, by leaving in flame until the flame color changes. Back off a couple tenths of a second or so and hammer through the entire batch. Flawless method, which doesn't require any special paint or thermometer, and will never risk ruining your brass.
Obviously an automated annealing machine of some kind is required for the best results here. I prefer the bench source unit.
Lots of details leading up to that point, but I'm assuming that's the part you were after.
Thanks!!
Thus far I have not found one that would work reliably, so if anyone stumbles on one, I'd love to know the make/model.
They can work well for many applications. Measuring the temprature of a case mouth inside a flame is not one of them.
Just the distance from the object can change your readings greatly.
I'll agree with that JM. I've had a play with the laser temp gauges, mistakenly thinking they would give an me exact digital figure. I tried mounting one (or the guts of one) actually on the machine, in a fixed position aiming well down the case body from about 3" away. I can set an audible alarm on my laser unit and I was looking to see if it would detect any over cooked cases. The system worked well but I never progressed the idea as it was just an extra level of unnecessary complication. I may well revisit the idea at a later date as the cost the laser units continues to fall rapidly.
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