What happens if you anneal the same case twice?

[Feniks Technologies]

If you look over the research on AMP’s website you’ll be able to see when sizing *generally* works the brass more and it’s pretty logical.

If you *only* use a bushing to set your neck diameter. Then firing and sizing will be pretty close.

If you use a sizing ball or a mandrel, that’s actually another sizing step and also required the neck to be sizes smaller to allow for expanding back up.

So, that’s when you have more work done due to sizing. *Generally* speaking.

 

[powdahound76]

Can I watch you do this?

Im not a good enough shooter to notice the improvement, so I just do once.

 

[rottenruger]

If you look over the research on AMP’s website you’ll be able to see when sizing *generally* works the brass more and it’s pretty logical.

If you *only* use a bushing to set your neck diameter. Then firing and sizing will be pretty close.

If you use a sizing ball or a mandrel, that’s actually another sizing step and also required the neck to be sizes smaller to allow for expanding back up.

So, that’s when you have more work done due to sizing. *Generally* speaking.

At a foggy 72, this begins to get beyond my mental scope and interest. But I admire and envy those who pursue it all.

My main focus is on keeping shells safe and reloadable as long as I can, they are not cheap. While always seeming to hear/read shells should be reloadable 6-8 times, and when they''re "shot" you will see cracks along the body or the neck, and problems around the primer hole......... mine just seem to be keeping on and on, and I rejoice. Earlier on I saw some evidence of expansion around the primer, so backed off a bit on loads. Now I always go one or two weights below maximum in the load books, and it seems to allow me to use and use and use, with only the occasional annealing. Happy Trails!

 

[rottenruger]

Im not a good enough shooter to notice the improvement, so I just do once.

What you're comfortable with is as important as anything in shooting.

Later you might want to bump your reloadings slowly, to get more shell life. It's not about improvement, it's about re-use, safe re-use.

 

[Marinevet1]

I thought it was about accuracy........

 

[Pesky Squirrel]

Good find alamo5000! Thanks for sharing!
I’m bad about over working cases. It has caused me problems leaving partial necks in the chamber and can be a frustrating pain to get out! I had an over used 375 H&H case stuck and finally had to resort to Cerrosafe to get it out. I really should invest in annealing I guess, or controlling the number of times I use the brass.

 

[SporterII]

Hardening is proportional to the amount of brass movement. Firing a round moves the brass maybe .005” or so. Sizing a case moves the brass .020” or more depending on the die.

This is the obvious and indeed what he said.

 

[Yondering]

Can I watch you do this?

If we start annealing primers too, they’ll give a better pressure reading.

 

[357Max]

If we start annealing primers too, they’ll give a better pressure reading.

They do indeed.

 

[rottenruger]

I thought it was about accuracy........

I'm sure it has some to do with accuracy, particularly for top shooters. Eric Cortina (you tube), for instance, says he anneals every reloading, if I remember correctly.

But for most of us, annealing softens the brass enough so that it will still size correctly......and hence be able to grip the bullet. When you're reloading and your bullets start slipping in/out, TIME TO ANNEAL.

 

[MarinePMI]

I'm pretty sure I just got dumber, reading this thread. Oye vey...

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Not 100% on topic but close enough to ask here and not start another thread.

I have access to a friends AMP annealer. I de-cap, size, and mandrel in one step using a SAC sizing die and de-capping/mandrel. With this method and annealing before sizing, are the primers in the fired brass going to be an issue for annealing in the AMP? I have tumbled the fired brass in anticipation of annealing. Is this necessary also?

 

[spife7980]

Not 100% on topic but close enough to ask here and not start another thread.

I have access to a friends AMP annealer. I de-cap, size, and mandrel in one step using a SAC sizing die and de-capping/mandrel. With this method and annealing before sizing, are the primers in the fired brass going to be an issue for annealing in the AMP? I have tumbled the fired brass in anticipation of annealing. Is this necessary also?

Only if you intend to anneal with live primers

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Fired primers don’t matter as said above.

I anneal with spent primers all the time. Carbon and other such stuff in the neck doesn’t matter either as per AMP’s testing.

 

[ACard]

Not 100% on topic but close enough to ask here and not start another thread.

I have access to a friends AMP annealer. I de-cap, size, and mandrel in one step using a SAC sizing die and de-capping/mandrel. With this method and annealing before sizing, are the primers in the fired brass going to be an issue for annealing in the AMP? I have tumbled the fired brass in anticipation of annealing. Is this necessary also?

I anneal mine on my amp before I decap.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Only if you intend to anneal with live primers

Thanks.

 

[jrsnell]

Would be interesting to see this testing done with flame annealers and salt bath.

Of course, anytime they do that they get torn apart as it looks like they are just trash talking other methods.

Its not trash talking to point out that salt bath annealing does not work for rifle case necks because the rate of heat transfer is too slow, and the end result is a case with too soft a shoulder and maybe the body too.

Anybody want to by my Salt Bath Annealing tools?

Flame annealing has enough energy applied to the correct part of the case - and assuming you calibrate with Tempilaq for every run (because gas settings are touchy!), the results are 'good enough' at a 'reasonable' cost to achieve, for the purpose intended. To be clear, thats gas annealing with a time controlled system that repeatably produces neck temperatures at or above 450F in the neck to shoulder area while the same case does not exceed 750F from shoulder to body.

In case you want to make life a lot simpler turn your case necks to whatever thickness removes 1/2 of the variation in case neck thickness - its a one time investment in reducing runout and centering the bullet in the barrel, typically by a couple of thousandths offset.

Once the case necks are a uniform thickness (1/2 the variation in thickness removed which oddly works out to about 0.011" neck wall thickness in most of the cases I've turned regardless of brand for 204 Ruger, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 308 Winchester - might be different [less than 0.011") in 22-250 and other old case designs), you can choose a neck size bushing that produces 0.002" neck tension (or some other number), and never ever have to push or pull a die through an unsupported neck - which is a significant source of runout.

Think about the geometry inside the die as the case is being withdrawn. The sizer ball can easily drag the case neck out of the near perfectly concentric alignment the sizing operation imparted.

Another benefit of neck thickness uniforming and only neck sizing enough to hold the bullet is that you will likely not have to trim your brass again, or if you trim it to 0.010" shorter than the actual chamber neck length, it may not grow enough to worry about during the life of the case. BUT ALWAYS CHECK!

If you find that you have to resize the case body, I have setup a 5.56 NATO Redding Type S with a 0.247 bushing that works well in my Dillon and by setting it to bump case shoulder 0.002, there is very little case neck length growth. But since I have the time and inclination, I use a Frankfort Arsenal (similar to a Gracy) neck trimmer to set the neck length from the shoulder before the case enters the Dillon.

I do all of the case neck machining after annealing (why work hard brass when you could work soft brass?)

It has been a while since I've updated my notebook, but a lot of this information is included in it. I think I may have to write up the Dillon this fall …

Snell's Notebook

SnellsNotebook.us

 

[rottenruger]

Not 100% on topic but close enough to ask here and not start another thread.

I have access to a friends AMP annealer. I de-cap, size, and mandrel in one step using a SAC sizing die and de-capping/mandrel. With this method and annealing before sizing, are the primers in the fired brass going to be an issue for annealing in the AMP? I have tumbled the fired brass in anticipation of annealing. Is this necessary also?

I'm not familiar with the AMP, I've got the Giraud Annealer.

I sometimes tumble if things need shining up or I'm feeling flashy. Sometimes with SPENT primers in, sometimes with them out. If out, I have to spend more time on flash-hole cleaning.

Hate it when I start with tumbling that I then blur things up with a little lube for sizing.

Frequency of Annealing? Max is every reload, if you're a precision shooter nut (I try to be but am a bit lazy); Minimum is when the brass won't hold the bullet tight when you press it it. Don't want to lose the bullet on the way to the chamber!

 

[Marinevet1]

I decap, tumble, anneal with an AMP.............go from there...........

 

[Haney]

Hardening is proportional to the amount of brass movement. Firing a round moves the brass maybe .005” or so. Sizing a case moves the brass .020” or more depending on the die.

That is not true , .005" as a blanket statement for all brass is dead wrong . Some brass will move many times more than that .

 

[Yondering]

That is not true , .005" as a blanket statement for all brass is dead wrong . Some brass will move many times more than that .

This. And some sizing processes will only move the brass a few thousandths.

It's fair to say that sizing will always move the brass at least as much as when it was fired, plus a couple thousandths, but that claim of .005/.020" as a universal truth is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Yondering]

Its not trash talking to point out that salt bath annealing does not work for rifle case necks because the rate of heat transfer is too slow, and the end result is a case with too soft a shoulder and maybe the body too.

Not trash talking, but it may be a lack of understanding.

This completely depends on how hot the salt bath is. If you've got it set at 750°F, then yeah you're right. If you set it hot enough that it works, then you are not right. Tempilaq will tell you the truth.

 

[918v]

This. And some sizing processes will only move the brass a few thousandths.

It's fair to say that sizing will always move the brass at least as much as when it was fired, plus a couple thousandths, but that claim of .005/.020" as a universal truth is a bit ridiculous.

That’s because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[Yondering]

That’s because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Sure thing, genius.

 

[918v]

Sure thing, genius.

I’m hurt.

 

[jrsnell]

Not trash talking, but it may be a lack of understanding.

This completely depends on how hot the salt bath is. If you've got it set at 750°F, then yeah you're right. If you set it hot enough that it works, then you are not right. Tempilaq will tell you the truth.

I may be wrong because it’s been a couple of years, but heating the salt bath like that will produce a lot of lethal gas. The info was in the instructions.

A second problem with the salt bath technique is timing. Heat migrates quickly in brass. Even using a metronome isn’t precise enough.

 

[Yondering]

I may be wrong because it’s been a couple of years, but heating the salt bath like that will produce a lot of lethal gas. The info was in the instructions.

A second problem with the salt bath technique is timing. Heat migrates quickly in brass. Even using a metronome isn’t precise enough.

You have to use the right salts. Different salts can be used for anything from about 400F to above 2,000F.

Sounds like you bought a kit from someone who didn’t really know their stuff maybe? You can look up a chart for different salts and temperatures, and use Tempilaq to tell you what’s really happening. I use a stripe of 750 and a stripe of 900 on the test cases, neck to base.

 

[jrsnell]

You have to use the right salts. Different salts can be used for anything from about 400F to above 2,000F.

Sounds like you bought a kit from someone who didn’t really know their stuff maybe? You can look up a chart for different salts and temperatures, and use Tempilaq to tell you what’s really happening. I use a stripe of 750 and a stripe of 900 on the test cases, neck to base.

My understanding is you want to achieve 750F on the neck, and not exceed 450F below the shoulder.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Its not trash talking to point out that salt bath annealing does not work for rifle case necks because the rate of heat transfer is too slow, and the end result is a case with too soft a shoulder and maybe the body too.

Anybody want to by my Salt Bath Annealing tools?

Flame annealing has enough energy applied to the correct part of the case - and assuming you calibrate with Tempilaq for every run (because gas settings are touchy!), the results are 'good enough' at a 'reasonable' cost to achieve, for the purpose intended. To be clear, thats gas annealing with a time controlled system that repeatably produces neck temperatures at or above 450F in the neck to shoulder area while the same case does not exceed 750F from shoulder to body.

In case you want to make life a lot simpler turn your case necks to whatever thickness removes 1/2 of the variation in case neck thickness - its a one time investment in reducing runout and centering the bullet in the barrel, typically by a couple of thousandths offset.

Once the case necks are a uniform thickness (1/2 the variation in thickness removed which oddly works out to about 0.011" neck wall thickness in most of the cases I've turned regardless of brand for 204 Ruger, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 308 Winchester - might be different [less than 0.011") in 22-250 and other old case designs), you can choose a neck size bushing that produces 0.002" neck tension (or some other number), and never ever have to push or pull a die through an unsupported neck - which is a significant source of runout.

Think about the geometry inside the die as the case is being withdrawn. The sizer ball can easily drag the case neck out of the near perfectly concentric alignment the sizing operation imparted.

Another benefit of neck thickness uniforming and only neck sizing enough to hold the bullet is that you will likely not have to trim your brass again, or if you trim it to 0.010" shorter than the actual chamber neck length, it may not grow enough to worry about during the life of the case. BUT ALWAYS CHECK!

If you find that you have to resize the case body, I have setup a 5.56 NATO Redding Type S with a 0.247 bushing that works well in my Dillon and by setting it to bump case shoulder 0.002, there is very little case neck length growth. But since I have the time and inclination, I use a Frankfort Arsenal (similar to a Gracy) neck trimmer to set the neck length from the shoulder before the case enters the Dillon.

I do all of the case neck machining after annealing (why work hard brass when you could work soft brass?)

It has been a while since I've updated my notebook, but a lot of this information is included in it. I think I may have to write up the Dillon this fall …

Snell's Notebook

SnellsNotebook.us

Salt bath does work and the heat transfer efficiency of liquid is something like 20 times higher than that of air (flame).
The main issues with salt bath annealing was the BS 750F temperature and dipping brass into a open vat of molten salt in
front of your face. At 540C it works very well just dangerous as shit.

 

[AllenOne1]

Salt bath does work and the heat transfer efficiency of liquid is something like 20 times higher than that of air (flame).
The main issues with salt bath annealing was the BS 750F temperature and dipping brass into a open vat of molten salt in
front of your face. At 540C it works very well just dangerous as shit.

Agree 100%. Works good. Dangerous as shit.

I like it much better than a flame annealer but won't recommend it due to the dangerous nature of the hot salt. It's not for everyone that's for sure. I now have access to an AMP unit and do all my annealing on that.

 

[Yondering]

My understanding is you want to achieve 750F on the neck, and not exceed 450F below the shoulder.

That's partly right.

You want to hit at least 750 on the neck AND the shoulder, and generally a little below the shoulder on the body. A google image search for "annealed brass" will show what I mean, or just look at some new Lapua. If the 750F Tempilaq line on the case stops indicating somewhere in that region, and you didn't completely screw up the annealing process, you can be pretty confident the case head isn't affected, but if you're unsure just use some lower temp indicator as well.

Regardless, whatever salt bath kit you bought sounds like it wasn't developed by someone who knew what they're talking about. It sounds like you're pretty new to annealing as well, or at least don't know all the necessary details yet, so it's interesting that you decided from your limited experience that "salt bath doesn't work". It does, you just did it wrong.

 

[Yondering]

Salt bath does work and the heat transfer efficiency of liquid is something like 20 times higher than that of air (flame).
The main issues with salt bath annealing was the BS 750F temperature and dipping brass into a open vat of molten salt in
front of your face. At 540C it works very well just dangerous as shit.

Guns are dangerous too. Far more than salt bath annealing, which is no more dangerous than bullet casting. Some people definitely are not competent to do any of these safely, but for the rest of us, just learn how to do it and move on. No need for the drama about "it's so dangerous".

 

[straightshooter1]

That's partly right.

You want to hit at least 750 on the neck AND the shoulder, and generally a little below the shoulder on the body. A google image search for "annealed brass" will show what I mean, or just look at some new Lapua. If the 750F Tempilaq line on the case stops indicating somewhere in that region, and you didn't completely screw up the annealing process, you can be pretty confident the case head isn't affected, but if you're unsure just use some lower temp indicator as well.

You're right about annealing involving both the neck AND the shoulder. As far as temperature goes, annealing is a function of temperature AND time. The hotter the temperature the shorter the time needed. When annealing our brass, we don't want to take too long so as not to do any annealing in the lower part of the case . . . especially the web area. The body needs to be hard enough for enough spring back so that it releases for ejection. As you say, 750°F is what you want "at least" and it's ok if neck temperature goes somewhere between 750 - 1,000°; much hotter than that can result in the neck being too soft and won't hold the bullet well.

This is what my annealed brass typically looks like:

 

[Yondering]

You're right about annealing involving both the neck AND the shoulder. As far as temperature goes, annealing is a function of temperature AND time. The hotter the temperature the shorter the time needed. When annealing our brass, we don't want to take too long so as not to do any annealing in the lower part of the case . . . especially the web area. The body needs to be hard enough for enough spring back so that it releases for ejection. As you say, 750°F is what you want "at least" and it's ok if neck temperature goes somewhere between 750 - 1,000°; much hotter than that can result in the neck being too soft and won't hold the bullet well.

This is what my annealed brass typically looks like:

View attachment 7872947

Hence why I mentioned using 900F Tempilaq as well.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

That's partly right.

You want to hit at least 750 on the neck AND the shoulder, and generally a little below the shoulder on the body. A google image search for "annealed brass" will show what I mean, or just look at some new Lapua. If the 750F Tempilaq line on the case stops indicating somewhere in that region, and you didn't completely screw up the annealing process, you can be pretty confident the case head isn't affected, but if you're unsure just use some lower temp indicator as well.

Regardless, whatever salt bath kit you bought sounds like it wasn't developed by someone who knew what they're talking about. It sounds like you're pretty new to annealing as well, or at least don't know all the necessary details yet, so it's interesting that you decided from your limited experience that "salt bath doesn't work". It does, you just did it wrong.

It works, just not as consistent and controlled as the amp.

Their testing with it is pretty transparent and they aren’t amateurs with a stopwatch and tempilaq.

Can’t argue much when testing the actual hardness.

Also, referencing anything visual to do with annealing is not a good idea at all as far as looking for pics of annealed brass.

 

[straightshooter1]

It works, just not as consistent and controlled as the amp.

Their testing with it is pretty transparent and they aren’t amateurs with a stopwatch and tempilaq.

Can’t argue much when testing the actual hardness.

Also, referencing anything visual to do with annealing is not a good idea at all as far as looking for pics of annealed brass.

Agree on all counts.

Pics just don't really tell the whole story, particularly these days :

 

[secondofangle2]

Its not trash talking to point out that salt bath annealing does not work for rifle case necks because the rate of heat transfer is too slow, and the end result is a case with too soft a shoulder and maybe the body too.

Anybody want to by my Salt Bath Annealing tools?

Flame annealing has enough energy applied to the correct part of the case - and assuming you calibrate with Tempilaq for every run (because gas settings are touchy!), the results are 'good enough' at a 'reasonable' cost to achieve, for the purpose intended. To be clear, thats gas annealing with a time controlled system that repeatably produces neck temperatures at or above 450F in the neck to shoulder area while the same case does not exceed 750F from shoulder to body.

In case you want to make life a lot simpler turn your case necks to whatever thickness removes 1/2 of the variation in case neck thickness - its a one time investment in reducing runout and centering the bullet in the barrel, typically by a couple of thousandths offset.

Once the case necks are a uniform thickness (1/2 the variation in thickness removed which oddly works out to about 0.011" neck wall thickness in most of the cases I've turned regardless of brand for 204 Ruger, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 308 Winchester - might be different [less than 0.011") in 22-250 and other old case designs), you can choose a neck size bushing that produces 0.002" neck tension (or some other number), and never ever have to push or pull a die through an unsupported neck - which is a significant source of runout.

Think about the geometry inside the die as the case is being withdrawn. The sizer ball can easily drag the case neck out of the near perfectly concentric alignment the sizing operation imparted.

Another benefit of neck thickness uniforming and only neck sizing enough to hold the bullet is that you will likely not have to trim your brass again, or if you trim it to 0.010" shorter than the actual chamber neck length, it may not grow enough to worry about during the life of the case. BUT ALWAYS CHECK!

If you find that you have to resize the case body, I have setup a 5.56 NATO Redding Type S with a 0.247 bushing that works well in my Dillon and by setting it to bump case shoulder 0.002, there is very little case neck length growth. But since I have the time and inclination, I use a Frankfort Arsenal (similar to a Gracy) neck trimmer to set the neck length from the shoulder before the case enters the Dillon.

I do all of the case neck machining after annealing (why work hard brass when you could work soft brass?)

It has been a while since I've updated my notebook, but a lot of this information is included in it. I think I may have to write up the Dillon this fall …

Snell's Notebook

SnellsNotebook.us

I think you have your 450/750 temps backwards. And, if you put a regulator on a bulk propane tank, flame consistency is ensured.

 

[Yondering]

It works, just not as consistent and controlled as the amp.

Their testing with it is pretty transparent and they aren’t amateurs with a stopwatch and tempilaq.

Can’t argue much when testing the actual hardness.

Also, referencing anything visual to do with annealing is not a good idea at all as far as looking for pics of annealed brass.

For one thing, nobody asked about a debate of AMP’s annealer vs any other method. But there’s always an AMP fanboy that wants to bring this up.

Two, no, there’s plenty to be skeptical about in AMP’s “testing” of salt bath annealing. For starters, if you can’t see the conflict of interest in their info you don’t have both eyes open. There’s also the fact that the pics of their salt bath annealed cases don’t look like anything I’ve seen come out of a salt bath. Those looked flame annealed, but cases in a salt bath aren’t exposed to oxygen to build the dark coloring.

Try doing your own test instead of believing their data. I did, and mine showed very different results.

It is both sad and funny how many people fail to realize the merits of independent testing, or why data from someone with a conflict of interest should always be viewed with suspicion. Baaaa.

 

[M4orturnate]

I wonder would you get better groups if you anneal before sizing and anneal one more time after sizing the brass, just before expanding with mandrel.

Ive tried it. Es came down like 2 fps but that could be in the margin of error. Shot the same as once annealed

 

[javierortega72]

This is way too high tech for a starter like me! Been loading about 1.5 years now and never annealed! Maybe I should start ! Done 6.5 creedmoor, 308, 223, 5.7x28, and 7.62x39's. Amongst 9mm, and 45acp. About 10,000 rounds in! So mainly torch angled edge and up, 3 to 5 seconds before it turns cheery red to release neck tension and hardness, watch for not discoloring anywhere near base, then fl resize to harden it again before seating bullet. Just that it will only barely harden and that's what u want for consistency and accurate loads! Did I get that right?

 

[Yondering]

This is way too high tech for a starter like me! Been loading about 1.5 years now and never annealed! Maybe I should start ! Done 6.5 creedmoor, 308, 223, 5.7x28, and 7.62x39's. Amongst 9mm, and 45acp. About 10,000 rounds in! So mainly torch angled edge and up, 3 to 5 seconds before it turns cheery red to release neck tension and hardness, watch for not discoloring anywhere near base, then fl resize to harden it again before seating bullet. Just that it will only barely harden and that's what u want for consistency and accurate loads! Did I get that right?

No, don't heat the brass to cherry red. One older method was to turn out the lights and heat the neck & shoulder until it barely starts to glow a dark red, then remove from heat. (Doesn't matter if you water quench or just air cool at that point, it won't change the hardness.) Don't try to anneal your pistol brass.

It's much more accurate to use Tempilaq at least though. And you'll want to spin the cases as you heat them.

There are several low cost flame annealing devices that give you better consistency than annealing by hand or in a cordless drill. The Annealeez is one example that works pretty well for the cost (around $250 IIRC).

When you start to see the case necks split in your rifle brass, you'll know you waited too long to anneal them.

 

[leclairk]

The good news about all this is when I’m trying to set my bump. If I set it wrong I can just take that piece, re-anneal it and it’s good as new. Before I was annealing I would use the same case, sometimes multiple times, to get my bump just right, throw in the next piece to size and it was totally off. Now I know why and how to prevent it.

 

[viking78]

I have never done annealing on my Lapua brass.
Still shoot as good as they were new, and i have done shot some of those a 10+ times.
Interesting part of reloading, but on my view, it is too much scientific voodoo, is it help, and if it is, how to do it and how often, and before or after sizing the case, and and and.
Not for me, i use my method, because it works for me.