Rifle Competition Events  What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    During Covid I was bouncing channels and NBCSN had on Air Gun comps that were nothing but carnival shots, toys, games, bright colors, it was all 80s Neon. But it was shooting on a Network

    The big leagues don’t want the association of the tactical rifles, I know people that reached out. we are too close, too connected to Black Rifles so anything would have to be built, grown then sold,

    But that should be secondary, that is what got this into trouble, being sold back and forth so Many times.

    It needs to be structured for both growth and membership, recruitment needs to be a primary mission

    Part of the missing fun element is the training, the clinics, it gives those who have a sense of apprehension the confidence to know, before I step into the field I will have some knowledge behind me. Its not blind, it’s open and educational
     

    Dthomas3523

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  • Jan 31, 2018
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    So, here’s a question,

    Lets say a series started and they had the limited and open class with the 18lb and other such restrictions. Open has none.

    What is the appeal to shoot the limited? Why would I as a shooter take the option of the harder class?

    What’s the carrot or reward for that?
     

    mahlv

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    My opinion matters less than most, if not all you guys in here. Just a broad observation, but as long as there's 10 guys to replace every one of me, why would the entities(prs, nrl) give two shits about changing what is, ultimately, working as far as they give a shit? Memberships still get sold, matches still sell out, merchandise still sells. Summing it up as supply vs demand.
     

    Dthomas3523

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  • Jan 31, 2018
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    My opinion matters less than most, if not all you guys in here. Just a broad observation, but as long as there's 10 guys to replace every one of me, why would the entities(prs, nrl) give two shits about changing what is, ultimately, working as far as they give a shit? Memberships still get sold, matches still sell out, merchandise still sells. Summing it up as supply vs demand.

    We aren’t talking about the current stuff changing. They aren’t going to change.

    If you were making a new series.
     
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    davsco

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    is PRS really tailored to a national series? there are way less venues than something like uspsa or even 3 gun. other than 1 range an hour away, all the other matches for me pretty much need a 4-5 hour drive and overnight stay or two. whereas i have 3 uspsa matches within an hour and at least 2-3x that if you expand to a 2 hour radius. sure it's different and perhaps better in other spots.

    related, prs is so less complex than uspsa etc (not shooting on the move, multiple target types and no shoots or shoot throughs, etc). so at least imo the need for a national governing body/ruleset is much less.

    what i'd (and perhaps other avg joes) like changed = lower match fees. everything i see is $80 - 150+ per day and max 100 rounds of shooting fun. vs uspsa 150+ rounds and $25-30. but most prs events i've seen sell out so i guess no incentive to lower match fees. that said i realize that 1k+ ranges need multitudes of real estate more than uspsa bays.

    i'm just hopeful to have more matches available and to attend more in 2021!
     

    Long Range 338

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    What nobody has stated is the obvious solution for the current non listening bodies.... Vote with your dollars. If they won't change and you disapprove don't give them your time or money and attrition will get to the sponsors and them eventually. But does that accomplish the goals either?
     
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    Boatninja

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    I'm one of the guys on the outside looking in, monitoring this thread to learn about the whole scene, but also to see if something pushes me over the edge, to actually compete
    I am somewhat intimidated in regard to shooting against very experienced shooters. Other than casual hunting camp matches I have never competed with anyone but myself.
    I want to be involved, find the niche that fits me, even though I have no idea what I'm looking for, it might just be ROing or helping put on matches or if that "niche" even exists. I want to somehow be a part of it.
    What I know is I like accurate rifles, I like shooting them, looking at them, talking about them, shooting at things far away, etc etc.
    I spend most Sundays if not on a boat or ranch somewhere, at the range with an ever growing load of rifles, ammo, shooting and talking to other guys and a growing number of gals about guns and shooting.
    Other than being of the older variety I am one of those guys that are just waiting for that one more thing to make me join up and I know five or six guys that are of the same mindset and there are a bunch more out there.................
    I hope this helps somehow. Keep talking guys,
     
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    MTB doc

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    First thing to state is I have never shot a match. I could though. I have the money and could get whatever time off I need. But, based off of what I have read in numerous threads mainly here, it doesn't sound appealing to me. I have not read a single thread which made me feel there was a focus on instruction, recruitment, etc, as a significant part of the event.

    I grew up riding/racing motocross and MTB (mountain bike) from a young age. I watched as those 2 very non-mainstream sports grew quite a bit. There is so much effort, instruction and work put back in now to make it fun and inviting/less intimidating to a new rider. That has been the key to growth.

    I shot in Alaska this past June with @lowlight and Marc at their course. It was a ton of fun. Looking back, one thing that made it so fun was instruction, training, etc. Then, seeing yourself improve and build more skills was the reward. Fast forward and based on that experience I have shot quite a bit more and now I'm a RSO at a local long range. I would love to attend a match that has an element of instruction or clinics as part of it's focus.
     

    lowlight

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    I get that logistically it may not be possible

    But one-day matches should be Sunday's and have a 1/2 Day clinic on Saturday, an 8 to 1 for new shooters, it's a revenue generator and helps walk people through the doors.

    2 Day matches do Friday as a clinic and do a full day there,

    You have to have an educational element to this, you are "building marksman" or competitors, if you build them right these problems go away.

    if a competitor gets a DQ or has a rule violation at a match the series has to tax the Series points must be taxed, a big enough violation can force you to start the season over. You have to manage the shooter if you want to be a real organization. Then you support the venues to create a cloned experience. MD can then add their own flair to a few stages or offer something else to enhance the experience. Maybe it's food, maybe it's location, you find what makes them special and focus on it.
     

    lash

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    I like the general trend of this thread, leaning towards the educational and growth concept. Right now, the series seems to be successful by sheer demand for this type of shooting. However, it is anything but inviting to younger and less experienced shooters. Sure, there are some (a few) younger shooters attending, but only if they have a strong advocate helping them along.

    I tend to agree with the person above who used the motocross/bmx analogy. There needs to be a welcoming air and an option for those that have interest but not exactly the competence or technical ability yet. I wonder how financially possible it would be to hold specific clinics and train ups for younger shooters, in addition to or as a separate choice on the day before a one day match.

    Just rambling along the same lines as above.
     

    seansmd

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    I get that logistically it may not be possible

    But one-day matches should be Sunday's and have a 1/2 Day clinic on Saturday, an 8 to 1 for new shooters, it's a revenue generator and helps walk people through the doors.

    2 Day matches do Friday as a clinic and do a full day there,

    You have to have an educational element to this, you are "building marksman" or competitors, if you build them right these problems go away.

    if a competitor gets a DQ or has a rule violation at a match the series has to tax the Series points must be taxed, a big enough violation can force you to start the season over. You have to manage the shooter if you want to be a real organization. Then you support the venues to create a cloned experience. MD can then add their own flair to a few stages or offer something else to enhance the experience. Maybe it's food, maybe it's location, you find what makes them special and focus on it.
    This! Vendors show up with their gear teach shooters, let them try the gear, fit it to the shooter.
     

    BLKWLFK9

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    No prize table, cash prizes from the entry fees for 1st-3rd. No divisions other than maybe a "limited" class and Open. No points races, each match is individual. If you want a finale of sorts, open to all but entry is higher and so is the cash payout. No bullshit organization drama like we currently deal with.
     
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    lowlight

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    Yes, they don't understand there has to be a strategy with this,

    Just saying, we're all friends and BOB will let you use his rear bag or game-changers during the stage is not the definition of inviting.

    They think because they will let you hang out with them, and offer you up a token piece of advice or nylon bag they are being your buddies.

    They don't understand nor do they want to. you should be doing pop-ups at a big box store like a Bass Pro, recruiting people in the area.

    Instead of spending money to sponsor a shooter and receive a picture of them holding a box, make they be real ambassadors and recruit, and not just their buddy
     

    Dthomas3523

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    No prize table, cash prizes from the entry fees for 1st-3rd. No divisions other than maybe a "limited" class and Open. No points races, each match is individual. If you want a finale of sorts, open to all but entry is higher and so is the cash payout. No bullshit organization drama like we currently deal with.

    The issue the current organizations have created, MD/ranges get all or most of the entry fee.

    So, they have created an environment where to do cash payouts, you either have to A: ask MD/range to take less or B: ask shooters to pay more.

    Both of those are going to come with “why should we do that?”

    As @lowlight has stated, some will have to make a sacrifice (in this case it would be the MD) to grow. But that’s a tough sell.

    So, basically, the current model needs to be burnt to the ground and completely revamped. Which is in works.
     

    lowlight

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    You have to make the match swag the prize, and honestly, that stuff is so secondary, it's the last piece of the puzzle,

    But you want to create an atmosphere where, if you don't have the T-Shirt, you're wrong. All you really need to do is bring that to a new level, let a company be that primary sponsorship for the event, and promote that fact if you don't have the shirt, you missed out,

    The prizes will come, build a better product and people will offer you all the prizes you need, first make the format better and the rest will handle itself. When a better mousetrap arrives people will respond quick enough

    Focus on the little things, running the event, spelling it out, what the matches should look like what do you want to test, how can the competition be replicated and grow.

    I think collecting scores and adding them up are the easier parts, but first, you have to create a few signature events to highlight what you are proposing.

    Once the standard is set, the first match happens, you'll have to fine-tune it, then you can replicate it. The heavy lifting has already been done, the answer is, just don't make these same mistakes the other guys did.
     

    FUNCTIONAL

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    Maybe a completely separate "league"? Say you have the "pro leauge" that shoots a match at the start of the month and that would be youre full 1 day or 2 day match with cash payouts to top 3 for a 1 day and top 5 or 10 for a 2 day. (Fuck the prize table bs).

    Then in the middle of the month or even the next weekend you have a "beginner leauge". Thhis would be half the COF (one day regardless if pro was 2 or 1 day) the pro leauge did with a mix of easy and more common stages (like barricade) and a "pro" as one of 2 ROs. They give tips for tackling the stage, time limit goes up and spotter calls are allowed (maybe limited to after 2 or 3 misses ?). If at the end of the season you have accumulated enough points you max out (or include if you win 3 matches) and have to move up to the "pro leauge". Cost in my oponion should be less for this match and "prizes" should be 3 randomly selected people to be meantored by a "pro" at the next match or a "training day". Hell if the ranger offers a prs training class or shooting class in general maybe a certificate or half off for three class. Not sure if there should be any restrictions for a "run what you brung" kind of deal to attract anyone who has interest not thinking you need to invest tons to try it.

    Just a thought considering ranges generally only put on one or 2 matches a month.
     

    BLKWLFK9

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    The issue the current organizations have created, MD/ranges get all or most of the entry fee.

    So, they have created an environment where to do cash payouts, you either have to A: ask MD/range to take less or B: ask shooters to pay more.

    Both of those are going to come with “why should we do that?”

    As @lowlight has stated, some will have to make a sacrifice (in this case it would be the MD) to grow. But that’s a tough sell.

    So, basically, the current model needs to be burnt to the ground and completely revamped. Which is in works.

    Agreed. But if a MD can hold multiple type matches due to the lack of dick measuring between organizations, it works out for the better. But yes, the MD is going to need to take a pay cut but would probably make up for it in participation numbers. When we start doing matches this year at our range, we will set the example by doing it. We aren't trying to make a profit so we are in a unique situation but you can definitely still turn a profit by doing it this way.
     
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    Statusquo

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    Regarding the retention of the mid pack shooters.

    I was a mid pack shooter (I know my place) for several years and grew tired of the series concept as a whole. The prize table bs, isolated cheating instances, super squads, and RO debacles were annoying, for sure. But what got me to stop being a card carrying competitor was the repetitive rat race and lack of value.

    I have a few good local ranges where me and a group of shooters can train/do our own thing with the same props/targets/distances without wasting the extra time involved with organized comps/series. Then, once a year we can support a good cause and actually have fun by shooting Karstetter for bragging rights. Maybe pull something off the prize table, maybe not.

    But wanting me to show up to 4 big matches a year and/or 8 club series matches is not that appealing. I've got family, hunting, other hobbies all demanding some of my time.

    Maybe focus on quality of matches rather than quantity.
     

    Rob01

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    Here if you want to go back in Time,

    Watch this Burkett video of the SHC from 2008, the best part is around 3:40 mark to 5;00 watch how out of breath Matt is ...

    That was one stage.


    The Culverts near the end are a 300 yard live fire obstacle course, that's how we did matches, with movement.

    Funny to watch that video and see all of Team Blaster in there. LOL Seems like a lifetime ago.
     
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    lowlight

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    Regarding the retention of the mid pack shooters.

    I was a mid pack shooter (I know my place) for several years and grew tired of the series concept as a whole. The prize table bs, isolated cheating instances, super squads, and RO debacles were annoying, for sure. But what got me to stop being a card carrying competitor was the repetitive rat race and lack of value.

    I have a few good local ranges where me and a group of shooters can train/do our own thing with the same props/targets/distances without wasting the extra time involved with organized comps/series. Then, once a year we can support a good cause and actually have fun by shooting Karstetter for bragging rights. Maybe pull something off the prize table, maybe not.

    But wanting me to show up to 4 big matches a year and/or 8 club series matches is not that appealing. I've got family, hunting, other hobbies all demanding some of my time.

    Maybe focus on quality of matches rather than quantity.


    This is very important, the match quality, the value the shooter gets out attendance.

    We created a destination for shooters, I definitely believe the quality of the matches has to increase, the stages need to get mixed up better.

    I would 18 great stages than 25 mediocre ones... I can make a few decent stages to keep the round count up without going crazy.
     

    Long Range 338

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    I've only been to a handful of matches (all small one day matches) and they were all a very good learning experience. But I will say the latest one I went to was the most fun and learning. A very laid back and friendly atmosphere and attendance was low enough that the MD joined our group and did some actual mentoring. Shared all of his equipment and offered some coaching and explaining different approaches to the stages. Some of the best training I've ever had.

    My first comp was also a club match and was fun as well but overwhelming specifically in the sense that the match had some national level competitors who grouped together and just ignored the rest of the competitors. They were not rude in any sense but totally disinterested in conversations outside of their group. They squadded together and so there was no real need or opportunity for them to interact - as per design. The whole match was run within an area of 200 yards so it actually was awkward in a sense. A few precious moments to interact and mentor would have changed the whole dynamic.

    The whole idea that some consider themselves "Pro" shooters in a hobby sport comes off as pure ego.... Small club matches are always going to bring more new blood to the table. If even the club matches did a train up the day before it would be a huge plus as the coaching/training is invaluable.
     

    RoterJager

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    Our local club does a Putt Putt night on Thursday nights (due to the facility being used for several other legaues) and then monthly matches. The putt putt nights are a fun, low key event in which some of the more experienced shooters help new shooters Zero their rifle, get chronograph numbers and then navigate a scaled down CoF at their own pace. My wife wants to shoot a match or two this year and we'll run through a couple of putt putt nights before hand.

    That all being said.. They are part of the regional PRS series and run a 2 Day match. Last year was my second year paying for a membership (regional). In all likelihood it will be my last. Despite being in the top 10 for the club and finishing top 10 in the region last year, a membership has lost its appeal to me. The benefit isn't there anymore. I don't need to pay a series to keep track of my scores for me. I just want to go shoot, hang out with my friends and maybe learn something new.
     

    Jabot

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    Coming from a person that has shot club level matches for a time. At some point if u want to grow as a shooter u have to shoot a big match. Weather its prs, nrl, sniper hide cup, nrl hunter match whatever u have to go to that level to grow as a shooter. Here r the exceptions, your club level has top prs/ nrl shooters that attend regular matches, and u learn from them. This is what I have done ,attend bigger matches when I can, not expecting to win but to go and learn , watch better shooters than myself, and to have fun with my fellow shooters doing it. Not everyone has the funds to Compete on top tier levels, or the time to practice or even a place to practice, these r not excuses but plan facts. And this doesn't make an excuse to not practice or try the best u can but the fact is most people r going to be the 80% there whole life no matter how much u practice or shoot at some point skill stops and that's as far as u will ever grow plan and simple. I don't know if there needs to be classifications or not, all I know is the top shooters r really good and for a reason, and one day I hope I can get to there level .
     

    Campguy308

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    I just want to go shoot, hang out with my friends and maybe learn something new.

    This. Just my opinion, but anything involving a series, league, and "pros" has rapidly lost its appeal for me personally.

    I host a bi monthly low profile match. No prizes, everything inside 600 yards, 60 rounds usually. Couple prone stages and the rest positional. We have a lot of fun. I think im going to build more on this next year. Plus, with the shortage of components, im not sure i want to blast 300+ rounds a month shooting bigger matches and practicing for them.
     

    Cherokee60

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    My team and I (Geissele Gas Gun Challenge on Facebook) allow for the less-experienced shooter to compete in a class (RECCE) where the are essentially "GI Joe" carbines with cheap optics and no high-dollar accessories. We set up the classes like this:
    RECCE: Any military-issue caliber carbine up to 18" in length, max 8-power optic, no bipod, one bag, not attached.
    DMR: Military caliber carbine or rifles. No other restrictions.
    OPEN: 30 caliber max. Run what ya brung. No other restrictions.
    *We do restrict projectile speeds and bullet weights.

    We typically allow RECCE more rounds and often, more time on a given course of fire. This promotes the newer shooter to get hits under less pressure than his "Pro" counterparts. In addition, we make the "Pros" work much harder, simply because their equipment is typically much heavier, more complex and less "infantry as f*#k". A ten thousand dollar optic doesn't help if you have to dial every shot. An inexpensive bullet drop reticle does. We utilize "real-world" obstacles...you may have to shoot from the hood of a car, under a stack of tires, from a ladder or float board, engage our moving target at unknown speed, find a hidden "bad guy" or engage "bad guys" while sparing "hostages". Fast, fun, safe. Challenging.

    Sample COF from August 2020 (8 stages, one day):

    Stage #6 - “The Post” - (600 yard line) (Targets 13, 3)

    Shooters will stage 1 magazine of fifteen rounds. Prior to target engagement, shooters’ rifles will be - and remain - in contact with a wooden post at the firing line. Shooter may take one bag for use on or with the post. Tripods or other support equipment types are not allowed. No support equipment may touch the ground. When the timer starts the stage, shooter will engage the target at 200 yards, then the target at 500 yards. Shooter will alternate between targets after making hits. Targets must be impacted to move on.

    Time – 90 seconds
    Round count – 15
    Max points – 15

    Targets: #13 (1/2 IPSC); #3 (2/3 IPSC)

    We encourage competitors help one another. Calling fire correction is allowed, except by official spotters. We promote good sportsmanship among ALL shooters. We engage the shooters at every match to be part of the "team". We solicit suggestions from competitors to improve the matches, improve the "fun" aspect and to send us ideas for stage design. We don't see dopey things like "gaming" very often, and when we catch it, we correct it. Fair is fair.

    All this being said, we're coming into our fifth season, with a Pro-Am, 6 regular matches and one season finale (season points). We're new at this, but we've seen our matches go from 20 or so shooters to nearly 60 per match.

    Just one team's way of exploring the ways to engage new shooters, and keep shooters interested.
     

    lash

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    My team and I (Geissele Gas Gun Challenge on Facebook) allow for the less-experienced shooter to compete in a class (RECCE) where the are essentially "GI Joe" carbines with cheap optics and no high-dollar accessories. We set up the classes like this:
    RECCE: Any military-issue caliber carbine up to 18" in length, max 8-power optic, no bipod, one bag, not attached.
    DMR: Military caliber carbine or rifles. No other restrictions.
    OPEN: 30 caliber max. Run what ya brung. No other restrictions.
    *We do restrict projectile speeds and bullet weights.

    We typically allow RECCE more rounds and often, more time on a given course of fire. This promotes the newer shooter to get hits under less pressure than his "Pro" counterparts. In addition, we make the "Pros" work much harder, simply because their equipment is typically much heavier, more complex and less "infantry as f*#k". A ten thousand dollar optic doesn't help if you have to dial every shot. An inexpensive bullet drop reticle does. We utilize "real-world" obstacles...you may have to shoot from the hood of a car, under a stack of tires, from a ladder or float board, engage our moving target at unknown speed, find a hidden "bad guy" or engage "bad guys" while sparing "hostages". Fast, fun, safe. Challenging.

    Sample COF from August 2020 (8 stages, one day):

    Stage #6 - “The Post” - (600 yard line) (Targets 13, 3)

    Shooters will stage 1 magazine of fifteen rounds. Prior to target engagement, shooters’ rifles will be - and remain - in contact with a wooden post at the firing line. Shooter may take one bag for use on or with the post. Tripods or other support equipment types are not allowed. No support equipment may touch the ground. When the timer starts the stage, shooter will engage the target at 200 yards, then the target at 500 yards. Shooter will alternate between targets after making hits. Targets must be impacted to move on.

    Time – 90 seconds
    Round count – 15
    Max points – 15

    Targets: #13 (1/2 IPSC); #3 (2/3 IPSC)

    We encourage competitors help one another. Calling fire correction is allowed, except by official spotters. We promote good sportsmanship among ALL shooters. We engage the shooters at every match to be part of the "team". We solicit suggestions from competitors to improve the matches, improve the "fun" aspect and to send us ideas for stage design. We don't see dopey things like "gaming" very often, and when we catch it, we correct it. Fair is fair.

    All this being said, we're coming into our fifth season, with a Pro-Am, 6 regular matches and one season finale (season points). We're new at this, but we've seen our matches go from 20 or so shooters to nearly 60 per match.

    Just one team's way of exploring the ways to engage new shooters, and keep shooters interested.
    I very much like this approach.
     

    roostercogburn98

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    This! Vendors show up with their gear teach shooters, let them try the gear, fit it to the shooter.
    The Army used to do this with the All Army Small Arms. Cool toys to play with on a day out shooting the combat matches. Have people something new to look at and put their hands on, as well as break up the day and help relax some. This was over 10 years ago, so not sure how the current concept goes now.
     

    Znutar

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    Here if you want to go back in Time,

    Watch this Burkett video of the SHC from 2008, the best part is around 3:40 mark to 5;00 watch how out of breath Matt is ...

    That was one stage.


    The Culverts near the end are a 300 yard live fire obstacle course, that's how we did matches, with movement.

    My favorite part of this video is the industrial training film music in the background. I keep expecting someone to jump in and narrate the 4 rules of gun safety...lol

     

    RoterJager

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    The Army used to do this with the All Army Small Arms. Cool toys to play with on a day out shooting the combat matches. Have people something new to look at and put their hands on, as well as break up the day and help relax some. This was over 10 years ago, so not sure how the current concept goes now.

    This is how the '15 SHC was. Prize table shenanigans and weather withstanding. That was the most fun I've ever had at at match and I didn't even shoot it. I just took pictures. That match made me want to compete.
     
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    lowlight

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    15 was an outlier, my help quit, they wanted the match canceled because of the rain, after I was threatened 4 ways from Sunday and to make it worse they tried charging me more than double because it was muddy, I was handed a $35k bill for that event

    It did not end with the match, but that was all on me, not the competitors.
     

    RoterJager

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    @lowlight I remember some of the posts about the issues with mud after the fact. It sucks that you ended up in that situation

    Like I said, I have yet to have as much fun at a match as I did that one. The CoF is still at the top of my list, despite shooting the Grind twice, and any number of other matches I've been to. If we had the room at our local club, I'd push hard for similarly set up matches.

    It felt as much like an expo or convention as it did a rifle match. I think that's a lot of what's missing right now.
     

    lowlight

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    that was 100% my course of fire, other than Section A where Jake dropped those targets, we just extended the distances.

    I used every inch of that place to set up those stages. You had direction changes with the wind, the car stage was fun to design.
    IMG_2531.jpg

    Shoot though the holes, this stage had the rabbit between the legs of the target and it got its head cut off.

    IMG_2521.jpg

    Including the extra movement makes it fun
     

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    RoterJager

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  • Oct 21, 2013
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    I think I have almost 100 pictures from the tripod loop hole stage alone. Something like 1500 total. Broke a camera lense that weekend after it got all jammed up in mud. Think that was day two for Kirk and the squad we were with.
     

    Shoots 700's

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    One of the things i see chase new shooters away is the 90 second stages. It is totally doable, however the new/newer shooters struggle to find targets and then take a long time to engage and dont finish the stage. With experience will come speed and efficientl.

    Maybe 120 seconds would help?
     

    Rob01

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    90 seconds is pretty standard. Never seen it chase anyone away. Yes they might be frustrated but happens to everyone. They learn through practice and matches how to use their time more wisely. It’s something that comes with shooting. Used to have 60 second stages sometimes but they went away for the more standard 90 seconds. New shooters need to shoot the courses of fire like the rest of the field.
     

    Jack Master

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    To sum most of this up there are 2 words. Introduce and Retain. Introduce the new shooters and retain the current shooters.

    As a first year competitor there are a lot of good ideas in this thread the could have helped me.

    Introduce:
    1. Give a match fee discount to a new shooter and possibly the shooter that brings them along. As Frank said, "come shoot but we're not tracking your score" is a good approach. A new shooter should be thier first 5 matches.
    2. Provide a target and time package for the new shooters. Larger targets and more time.
    3. A mentorship program that might assign an experienced shooter to help a new shooter through thier first matches.
    4. Have a good shooter in each squad - this means the MD is doing the squading and breaking up the super squads so the new shooters can see what is possible.
    5. Offer a newbie/factory class that is effective. This takes the intimidation away from having to compete with the whole field of experienced shooters.

    Retain
    1. If you have a prize table get more/bigger prizes to the lower 80%.
    The top 3 or 5 shooters get the money. (first flight)
    Score the match in flights. divide the # if shooters by 5 and this is you flights and have the top 3 people in each flight walk the table next. (84 shooter match here is the order for the table (17th, 18th, 19th - 34th, 35th, 36th - 50th, 51st, 52nd - 67th, 68th, 69th.) This pushes prizes to the lower end faster. after the flighting do the rest of the prizes how ever you want.
    2. Offer a stage clinic at the end of the day or day 1. Newer shooters can go back to those stages and shoot them again to learn more. Better yet; have one of the top shooter go back to that stage and demonstrate the stage for the shooters that struggled on it, show them what they did to shoot it well and work on position building. (this could be a requirement of the top shooter2 to sign up for this duty once a season and must be done to be eligible for the season finally)
    3. Train ups the day before a great too.
    4. Something I don't see on prize tables is certificates for training. Weird. Offer training! Newer shooters will pick that up and get better.

    There are a lot of ideas, but I agree the current series are not going to change. Its going to a take a new series with a different mindset. I know if am new but I'm up for helping out if one is being arranged.
     

    Shoots 700's

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    The other thing that nobody really discussed is cost. This is a very expensive sport and only so many people are able/willing to spend the amount of money to shoot a few matches a year and not be competitive.

    We pay a minimum of $90.00 for a local match here, and it goes up from there. Factor in the rifle, scope, ammo, bages tripods, ect. and most people wont compete.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    The other thing that nobody really discussed is cost. This is a very expensive sport and only so many people are able/willing to spend the amount of money to shoot a few matches a year and not be competitive.

    We pay a minimum of $90.00 for a local match here, and it goes up from there. Factor in the rifle, scope, ammo, bages tripods, ect. and most people wont compete.

    Unfortunately for centerfire (Rimfire is a different conversation), costs will always be higher than many disciplines.

    Even if you go the absolute cheapest route, you’re still looking at around $2k for rifle/optic (maybe cheaper, but not a ton). And then the absolute bottom dollar is gonna be around 50cent/rnd if you load your own with cheapest components you can find. And components are their own issue.

    So, you’re still looking at. $2k entry price for equipment, $40/match fee, $50-$150 ammo......that’s the cheapest way you’ll shoot a local/club match anywhere in the country. And you’re just not going to be able to change that.

    Centerfire has a pay to play premium that even at a bottom dollar, isn’t cheap. That’s just the way it is.

    Rimfire is the answer for this.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    One of the things i see chase new shooters away is the 90 second stages. It is totally doable, however the new/newer shooters struggle to find targets and then take a long time to engage and dont finish the stage. With experience will come speed and efficientl.

    Maybe 120 seconds would help?

    Perfect world, you have several tiers of development:

    2 sets of targets
    3 sets of times

    For example,

    80% of stages have 2moa and 2.5moa targets
    20% have 1.5moa and 2moa

    2min, 1:45, 1:30 stages

    Then tiers that a shooter can choose. The shooter controls their own advancement as a shooter. And if they are content where they are, who cares.

    Tier 6 : Big target 2min
    Tier 5 : Big target 1:45
    Tier 4 : Big target 1:30
    Tier 3 : small target 2 min
    Tier 2 : small target 1:45
    Tier 1: small target 1:30

    You can make it two times like 2min and 1:45 or 1:45 and 1:30. Whatever you want. This cuts your tiers down as well.

    Point being is their are two big factors at play, target size and time. By having tiers for both, you offer more options of progressing for shooters or you let shooters who are perfectly content shooting 2min and big targets keep doing that.

    A major flaw in the logic “they need to shoot the same and will learn” is that many people don’t learn and many of those quit. Sure, if we had thousands of shooters and a wait list, who cares.

    But we don’t and we need divisions and such that allow those guys to stay and keep playing.

    We already try to the top X percent, next X percent, next X percent skill levels. But the problem is, it’s based off the same target size and time. People still see they only hit 50% of the winning shooter. 50% sounds shitty. That runs some off. Also, they obviously missed a lot. Missing isn’t fun.

    So, give them the option of shooting bigger targets plus more time. That equals more hits. That means more fun. Then let them choose if they want to step up or not.

    We don’t tell beginner mountain climbers they should be climbing the same route as the experts. Beginner shooters (you can shoot matches for 10 years and still be a beginner level) don’t need snd shouldn’t be require to shoot the same cof as experts.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    And we all would like to say “that guy has been shooting matches for 5 years. He should be better. He should step up and push himself.”

    But, it’s not really any of our business. If he wants to shoot the amateur level cof every month for 20 years......as long as he’s paying his match fee and having fun, who cares. We need as many as we can get.
     
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    Rob01

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    We already have enough BS going on at matches we don’t need multiple courses of fire and time limits. Everyone shoots the same and some do better than others. Just like any shooting sport. You will always have people who drop out and those that are happy with the way they shoot and do it for fun and those that push themselves to do better. There only needs to be one stage of fire and time limit. Was that way when I started 18 years ago and some stayed and some left. It’s up to the shooter to determine if they want to compete. Not the competitions to bow to them and make things easy so they feel better about themselves. Sorry if this isn’t a popular opinion but everyone has their own and this is mine.
     

    Shoots 700's

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    We already have enough BS going on at matches we don’t need multiple courses of fire and time limits. Everyone shoots the same and some do better than others. Just like any shooting sport. You will always have people who drop out and those that are happy with the way they shoot and do it for fun and those that push themselves to do better. There only needs to be one stage of fire and time limit. Was that way when I started 18 years ago and some stayed and some left. It’s up to the shooter to determine if they want to compete. Not the competitions to bow to them and make things easy so they feel better about themselves. Sorry if this isn’t a popular opinion but everyone has their own and this is mine.
    All good points,but if you want to grow the sport, somethings may need to change.
     

    seansmd

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    We already have enough BS going on at matches we don’t need multiple courses of fire and time limits. Everyone shoots the same and some do better than others. Just like any shooting sport. You will always have people who drop out and those that are happy with the way they shoot and do it for fun and those that push themselves to do better. There only needs to be one stage of fire and time limit. Was that way when I started 18 years ago and some stayed and some left. It’s up to the shooter to determine if they want to compete. Not the competitions to bow to them and make things easy so they feel better about themselves. Sorry if this isn’t a popular opinion but everyone has their own and this is mine.
    That mindset is exactly why it will never grow, there is a huge group of people who leave a match go home and their rifle doesn't make it out of the safe until the next match. They don't care about getting better, or trade that off for the experience. They still want to experience non-zero stages, have fun, and learn. Getting burnt down by building cof to test the top 1% is like expecting a 30 handicap golfer show up and play the Open from the pro tees.
     

    Rob01

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    All good points,but if you want to grow the sport, somethings may need to change.

    The sport is growing. Has been for years. The whole “grow the sport” is like the dems “it’s for the children” argument in that it gets used for everything. This sport has done nothing but grow year after year and will continue to do so.
     

    Rob01

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    That mindset is exactly why it will never grow, there is a huge group of people who leave a match go home and their rifle doesn't make it out of the safe until the next match. They don't care about getting better, or trade that off for the experience. They still want to experience non-zero stages, have fun, and learn. Getting burnt down by building cof to test the top 1% is like expecting a 30 handicap golfer show up and play the Open from the pro tees.

    Again. The sport is growing.