Which is the best AR-10 without barrel deflection: the Geissele MRGG or the Seekins SP10M?
- Thread starter Boatscrypto
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There's nothing about the design of the MRGG that looks like it will mitigate shift due to bag vs bipod.
Geissele did recently file an interesting patent application related to lower-mounted handguards though...
Geissele did recently file an interesting patent application related to lower-mounted handguards though...
I have an LMT MWS 6.5 CM, I've noticed very very little barrel deflection regardless of where the bipod placement is, or using a bag versus bipod in general. I'm not saying it's the best AR-10 on the market, but it really excels in this area
That is interesting… Looking at it though, my inclination is that this is more of a mechanism to make the entire receiver/hand guard assembly more rigid (less wobble) vs. a way to remove the hand guard from the upper. I’d expect some type of “bridge” type scope mount to tie the upper to the hand guard will accompany this.
Of course I could be completely wrong…if they wanted it all tied together, why not just add the lower receiver tie in to a hand guard that’s already attached to the upper receiver too; maybe even a monolithic upper.
And of course tying the upper, lower, and hand guard together negates a simple two-pin take down mechanism too, so that doesn’t really make sense either. But having the hand guard attached to the lower would make it difficult, if not impossible, to remove the upper receiver/barrel assembly anyway…maybe there’s enough clearance to release the pins, rotate the upper, and the slide it out?
Edit: And how would you pull the BCG for a quick field strip/cleaning without first removing the hand guard?
So yeah, interesting… The more I look at this, the more questions I have! LoL
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KAC or nothing for me. Seekins makes nice stuff. So does G$ but they aren’t and never will be KAC. KAC just has too much lead on everyone via R&D. It’s shame they cost so much on the grey market and and it’s a shame that KAC can’t release more to the commercial market but I also understand military contacts and their obligations. Is what it is.
URX6 14.5 6.5CM is the GOAT currently.
URX6 14.5 6.5CM is the GOAT currently.
It does seem this way. The ARCA option with Picatinny may work, but what rigidity is it adding?That is interesting… Looking at it though, my inclination is that this is more of a mechanism to make the entire receiver/hand guard assembly more rigid (less wobble) vs. a way to remove the hand guard from the upper. I’d expect some type of “bridge” type scope mount to tie the upper to the hand guard will accompany this.
Of course I could be completely wrong…if they wanted it all tied together, why not just add the lower receiver tie in to a hand guard that’s already attached to the upper receiver too; maybe even a monolithic upper.
And of course tying the upper, lower, and hand guard together negates a simple two-pin take down mechanism too, so that doesn’t really make sense either. But having the hand guard attached to the lower would make it difficult, if not impossible, to remove the upper receiver/barrel assembly anyway…maybe there’s enough clearance to release the pins, rotate the upper, and the slide it out?
Edit: And how would you pull the BCG for a quick field strip/cleaning without first removing the hand guard?
So yeah, interesting… The more I look at this, the more questions I have! LoL
How's the barrel forend deflection on your KAC? Have you shot a positional test with it?
Here's my Seekins SP-10M builders kit with a Mullerworks barrel in a positional test
I feel like this topic is blown way out of proportion, yes not all uppers are created equally but at the same time you need to know your rifle.
Next time you're practicing at the range with a Bipod and rear bag, shoot from the Prone, Bench, Barricade and standing with tripod.
The 4 Rifles/Uppers that reduce POI shift the most are as follows...IMO
(1) LMT MWS and LaRue OBR.
The LaRue OBR is going to provide the best of both worlds with it's bullet proof design and true free floating barrel design.
With the LMT you won't be able to compete with it's rigidity from it's one peace Upper/Handguard but achieving Consistent all day Sub MOA is challenging, even with custom Bartlein barrels the LMT is just a finicky bitch.
(2) JP LRI-20 and Seekins SP10
The JP and SP10 are similar in design with their integral barrel nut design but both have area's to improve on.
The SP10 really needs Heli Coil inserts in the Upper receiver for the Handguard screws and the JP could benefit from a larger ejection port, bolth rifles would benefit from some alternative handguard designs.
(3) Another rifle that has excellent rigidity and accuracy is the LaRue PredatAR's. The accuracy that the PredatAR's have with a quality Cut rifled barrel are phenomenal.
With all the builds I've done over the years the most accurate rifles have been built off of LaRue OBR, PredatAR (Small and Large frame) and Seekins SP10 build kits.
I ALWAYS buy them just to have a few on hand for precision builds.
But how do you "know you're rifle"? It doesn't come from bench shooting.
One of the most important qualities of a skilled long range shooter is the ability to shoot your same zero from as many fucked up positions as possible. I've recently been on a kick training for PRS matches by shooting from various props on a ProTimer. I start off shooting a prone zero with a gun. Then a 5rd zero from a prop without time pressure. Then another 5rd group, all fired as single shots from ready in a ProTimer with the goal of shooting the same .3-.5" group in the same POI as an aggregate of 5 rounds fired in less than 12 secs each. All at 100yds in paper. And this is with a bolt gun. We all know large frame gas guns are harder to shoot more accurately and I would argue maintaining a zero is also more of a challenge with these guns. So intermixing mechanical inconsistencies in this problem is not helpful. Competitive shooting has skyrocketed since I started in 2007. The bar has been consistently raised and it must be an absolute bitch to get started today compared to 2007. The top 10% are constantly searching for the extra 1% to gain a competitive advantage. If the concept is that you're adjusting your data by .2 or .3 dependant on what position you're shooting in a given stage...fuck that. That is a dodo bird technique. Having the confidence in yourself and your rifle holding precision and accuracy is step #1 to evolving and correcting to center from one target to the next using single shots. You need that confidence and irrefutable proof from preparation.
I'd recommend a shooter that fancys himself some sort of guru get out and truly challenge himself and his rifle using metrics. Which is basically what competition is.
One of the most important qualities of a skilled long range shooter is the ability to shoot your same zero from as many fucked up positions as possible. I've recently been on a kick training for PRS matches by shooting from various props on a ProTimer. I start off shooting a prone zero with a gun. Then a 5rd zero from a prop without time pressure. Then another 5rd group, all fired as single shots from ready in a ProTimer with the goal of shooting the same .3-.5" group in the same POI as an aggregate of 5 rounds fired in less than 12 secs each. All at 100yds in paper. And this is with a bolt gun. We all know large frame gas guns are harder to shoot more accurately and I would argue maintaining a zero is also more of a challenge with these guns. So intermixing mechanical inconsistencies in this problem is not helpful. Competitive shooting has skyrocketed since I started in 2007. The bar has been consistently raised and it must be an absolute bitch to get started today compared to 2007. The top 10% are constantly searching for the extra 1% to gain a competitive advantage. If the concept is that you're adjusting your data by .2 or .3 dependant on what position you're shooting in a given stage...fuck that. That is a dodo bird technique. Having the confidence in yourself and your rifle holding precision and accuracy is step #1 to evolving and correcting to center from one target to the next using single shots. You need that confidence and irrefutable proof from preparation.
I'd recommend a shooter that fancys himself some sort of guru get out and truly challenge himself and his rifle using metrics. Which is basically what competition is.
And the douchiest Fast and Furious quote goes to...yep a KAC Fanboy.
And you know what else? I resent being called a fanboy. What’s killing me is these guys that buy them as an internet flex. They never shoot them. “Oh hey look what I have that you can’t get” when man if I had the one I want (M110K7) almost nobody would know unless they saw me out shooting it. Cause life isn’t a competition. Life is about generosity and gratitude. You get what you give. But being altruistic doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that one company’s products are slightly superior to the rest. I just wish it wasn’t also a damn collectors item.
This video talks about the M110K7 and has some positional stuff as well as deflection since that was the topic of this thread before I got in an internet fight about internet fights.
This video talks about the M110K7 and has some positional stuff as well as deflection since that was the topic of this thread before I got in an internet fight about internet fights.
And you know what else? I resent being called a fanboy. What’s killing me is these guys that buy them as an internet flex. They never shoot them. “Oh hey look what I have that you can’t get” when man if I had the one I want (M110K7) almost nobody would know unless they saw me out shooting it. Cause life isn’t a competition. Life is about generosity and gratitude. You get what you give. But being altruistic doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that one company’s products are slightly superior to the rest. I just wish it wasn’t also a damn collectors item.
This video talks about the M110K7 and has some positional stuff as well as deflection since that was the topic of this thread before I got in an internet fight about internet fights.
Fucking weak....
Let me try again. See how this treats you...
Best reply ever
How do things work in your head? Because this is what the rest of us are thinking
"I resent being called a fanboy." You act like a fanboy
"What’s killing me is these guys that buy them as an internet flex." And here you're flexing on the Internet
"They never shoot them.“ And you're afraid to show us proof that you do
".. almost nobody would know unless they saw me out shooting it." Except the people you're bragging to on the Internet
"Cause life isn’t a competition." Then act like it
"Life is about generosity and gratitude. You get what you give." So why are being an ass?
Here's the irony in our positions. I've shot SR25's for years as the population that KAC intended them for. And I don't covet them. Instead of being a YouTube subscriber, go create your own experience. When you speak, speak from your own lived experience and demonstrate expertise. If you don't have these things, just don't speak.
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