I once heard a comedian make fun of men and their lack of humility with something like this: "a lot of guys seem to think they come out of their mother's womb knowing how to drive a car, how to screw a woman, and how to shoot a gun."
Why are AR15s so difficult to shoot for the average shooter?
- Thread starter Roslyn
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Can’t buy anything nice from a gun show, damn things should be illegal
I'm pretty average, probably below average, and I can do a lot better than that. Like 2 to 3 MOA at 100 meters with American Eagle 55gr out of my 6920.
I look at accuracy as a series of Venn diagram type overlapping circles. The rifle and ammunition capability is one circle with an which may not be centered on the target due to poor zero or incorrect elevation correction. From there the shooter's fundamentals are another circle,
and their wind calling ability a wide and slightly diagonal oval due to cross wind jump.
So say the rifle is zeroed 2 MOA left, the ammo can do 4 MOA and a shot ends up being on the very left of that, then the shooter's ability is 4 MOA and a shot ends up on the left edge of that, and the wind pushes the round 2 MOA left the round could impact 8 MOA left. Then, with the exception of the zero being left, all those factors could shift to the extreme in another direction leading to shitty groups.
That's my take on it. 12 MOA shooters probably don't put as much thought into it. Or maybe I'm overthinking it.
I look at accuracy as a series of Venn diagram type overlapping circles. The rifle and ammunition capability is one circle with an which may not be centered on the target due to poor zero or incorrect elevation correction. From there the shooter's fundamentals are another circle,
and their wind calling ability a wide and slightly diagonal oval due to cross wind jump.
So say the rifle is zeroed 2 MOA left, the ammo can do 4 MOA and a shot ends up being on the very left of that, then the shooter's ability is 4 MOA and a shot ends up on the left edge of that, and the wind pushes the round 2 MOA left the round could impact 8 MOA left. Then, with the exception of the zero being left, all those factors could shift to the extreme in another direction leading to shitty groups.
That's my take on it. 12 MOA shooters probably don't put as much thought into it. Or maybe I'm overthinking it.
Take airguns for example, you'll get the best of the shot if you use good form and follow through on the shot. Don't change your hold or anything else if possible and you'll be rewarded.
Semi's if shot the same way can shoot great. The fact is you need to finesse the shot because you can't get away with some things like you could with a heavy centerfire bolt gun.
Semi's if shot the same way can shoot great. The fact is you need to finesse the shot because you can't get away with some things like you could with a heavy centerfire bolt gun.
It takes a decent investment of…
1. time
2. practice
3. money
…none of which most are willing to do, on a platform that wasn’t designed to be particularly rigid or lending itself to hyperaccurate sniperoooeeey shots to begin with.
1. time
2. practice
3. money
…none of which most are willing to do, on a platform that wasn’t designed to be particularly rigid or lending itself to hyperaccurate sniperoooeeey shots to begin with.
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The Other thing worth noting when looking at this platform is, it’s not truly free floated. From the receiver You have a freaking metal gas tube which is pinned to a metal gas block, which is then connected to the barrel. In bolt actions if built properly you have a free floating barrel, which is way more likely to shoot accurately and consistently compared to a gas gun
A have seen shit store bought ammo literally not hit minute of man. In a rifle that was sub moa on hand loads. After two primer didn’t ignite and I literally missed a man sized silhouette at 100 yards with the ones that did, i stopped shooting it and pulled the rounds down. Agulia. After pulling it down I could see why.
The worst box of ammo I ever experienced.
Crap ammo is exactly that.
You cant put a specific number (moa)on quality round to round, box to box, batch to batch. Even in “good” ammo there will occasionally be mistakes in manufacturing.
Its why people hand load, because you can put a tightly control the process, yielding better results.
Yes because you once had a singular box of bad ammo that means that the majority of people who can't shoot an AR-15 had that exact same experience. Every time.
Bullshit
Every time I pull a shot, I'll just blame my ammo from now on. I'll never improve, never get better, never learn how to reload, just pour money into buying FGMM and wondering why I suck.
99% of the time its you
COngrats on finding the 1% it wasn't. Would you like a cookie? Meanwhile the 99% of the time is kicking your ass like the idiots at the range. (reminds me of the guys where the "wind" blew their shots out of the bullseye at 100 yards). Yup, its the wind asshole.
What's the first thing we recommend to people we getting started?
TAKE A FUCKING CLASS
Bullshit
Every time I pull a shot, I'll just blame my ammo from now on. I'll never improve, never get better, never learn how to reload, just pour money into buying FGMM and wondering why I suck.
99% of the time its you
COngrats on finding the 1% it wasn't. Would you like a cookie? Meanwhile the 99% of the time is kicking your ass like the idiots at the range. (reminds me of the guys where the "wind" blew their shots out of the bullseye at 100 yards). Yup, its the wind asshole.
What's the first thing we recommend to people we getting started?
TAKE A FUCKING CLASS
Here's a summary of why people can't shoot. Obviously, you need to focus on gear and ammo. Practice is for losers.
All the practice in the world aint gonna help if the ammo is shit.
Its a combination of everything coming together, no one thing being more important than the other. It all matters
Trying to assign numbers and percentages you pulled out of thin air. Lol.
Its a combination of everything coming together, no one thing being more important than the other. It all matters
Trying to assign numbers and percentages you pulled out of thin air. Lol.
people can say whatever they want about ammo. No, just ammo alone isn’t gonna near make up for a bad shooter. However, there is a reason that people reload. If there was no benefit then I’m sure many would rather save their time and give a couple extra dollars for mass produced ammo that shot as well as their reloads. It all matters and it all comes together.
I don’t think there is one singular thing that matters more than the other. It all has to come together. Gear is some of it, ammo is some of it, practice and fundamentals is some of it. Practice practice gets you most of the way, that’s with anything. Sure some are more natural than others but practice makes perfect. That’s probably 78% of it, yes I pulled that out of my ass. Gear probably 12%. Ammo the last 10% but usually when you get to the ammo aspect you are talking about half inch groups vs 2” groups. That’s the difference and yes there is factory ammo out there that will shoot half an inch, sometimes, maybe even a lot of times, but not all the time. That’s where reloading your own ammo comes in because only then can you insure consistency in processes.
But reality is, in most circumstances half an inch vs 2” on a human size target or larger isn’t gonna matter that much. Not for most people. Benchrest shooters sure but to be honest, imo, that takes a lot of the human element out of it anyways and not something I really use as a marker for a good shooter. It’s some kind of an indication but not much for real world. I want the guy that can shoot good under a myriad of situations not just from a bench under optimal conditions.
You also have to factor in age because I don’t know about you guys but I’m not in my 20’s anymore. Yes I can still give people a hell of a run for their money but I’m getting older and I have to realize I’m not likely to maintain this badassness into my 90’s.
I don’t think there is one singular thing that matters more than the other. It all has to come together. Gear is some of it, ammo is some of it, practice and fundamentals is some of it. Practice practice gets you most of the way, that’s with anything. Sure some are more natural than others but practice makes perfect. That’s probably 78% of it, yes I pulled that out of my ass. Gear probably 12%. Ammo the last 10% but usually when you get to the ammo aspect you are talking about half inch groups vs 2” groups. That’s the difference and yes there is factory ammo out there that will shoot half an inch, sometimes, maybe even a lot of times, but not all the time. That’s where reloading your own ammo comes in because only then can you insure consistency in processes.
But reality is, in most circumstances half an inch vs 2” on a human size target or larger isn’t gonna matter that much. Not for most people. Benchrest shooters sure but to be honest, imo, that takes a lot of the human element out of it anyways and not something I really use as a marker for a good shooter. It’s some kind of an indication but not much for real world. I want the guy that can shoot good under a myriad of situations not just from a bench under optimal conditions.
You also have to factor in age because I don’t know about you guys but I’m not in my 20’s anymore. Yes I can still give people a hell of a run for their money but I’m getting older and I have to realize I’m not likely to maintain this badassness into my 90’s.
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Same reasons most people cannot shoot a bolt action well. Shit skills, shit ammo, shit gear. I just had another conversation with a new hunting family that refuses to even consider shooting Rimfire for practice. They assume a max $300 scope on their centerfires, along with a random grab bag of ammo bought with budget top of mind, and “practicing” with box a year will put a game animal in the freezer. I asked him how good he would be at his job if he did it 4 hrs per year.
Reloading/Ammo only helps if you can shoot the rifle in the first place. For some reason, when I say practice more, people read "ammo doesn't matter"
It matters IF YOU CAN SHOOT.
Most people can't.
But but but but but
This forum isn't most people. Get out of your bubble.
But that actually works for literally millions of hunters every year. They ain’t great shooters, but I’ve seen 6 moa shooters bag a deer year after year.
My sister hit 2 deer with her van last year.
Baiting a deer with corn and sitting in a blind is not rocket science.
I personally think semi have more going on. For example just the bolt chambering a round can change the “headspace” of the cartridge, change the seating depth, concentricity of projectile in the neck, put marks on the projectile which can affect how it flies. Its a lot more violent action than most cycling the bolt manually. I think this plays into it a lot.
Minute of paper plate is good enough for deer under a corn feeder. Shooting is arguably the least important skill for a deer hunter.
If I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard “I ain’t much for target shootin’ but…” I’d have more than a couple of nickels.
If I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard “I ain’t much for target shootin’ but…” I’d have more than a couple of nickels.
Pointing and laughing at people because you think they can't shoot for shit is not helping in any way. I understand many people are not really interested enough to really try to improve. But more people would be with just a little sincere encouragement rather than derision from some smartass knowitall at the range.
To truly help someone, you'll need to go through a troubleshooting process of elimination. Eliminate as many of the non-shooter variables as possible. To me, ammo is the easiest to eliminate. You can't even tell if it's you if you're using ammo that patterns like a shotgun, so eliminate that possibility. Get some FGMM ammo and try it again. Once you get good ammo established, THEN you can actually tell if you are making any other improvements with form, scope/sight mounting, or if the gun just won't shoot.
Let an AR-experienced shooter shoot the gun. If they're truly trying to help and are not just an equipment snob telling you to buy a $5k AR and a $4k scope, they will be able to at least demonstrate that the gun is capable of shooting a decent group.
To truly help someone, you'll need to go through a troubleshooting process of elimination. Eliminate as many of the non-shooter variables as possible. To me, ammo is the easiest to eliminate. You can't even tell if it's you if you're using ammo that patterns like a shotgun, so eliminate that possibility. Get some FGMM ammo and try it again. Once you get good ammo established, THEN you can actually tell if you are making any other improvements with form, scope/sight mounting, or if the gun just won't shoot.
Let an AR-experienced shooter shoot the gun. If they're truly trying to help and are not just an equipment snob telling you to buy a $5k AR and a $4k scope, they will be able to at least demonstrate that the gun is capable of shooting a decent group.
Heard this from an old Gunsite guy and like it better this way:
"All young men think they can naturally fuck, fight, shoot and drive well....and they're all wrong....all 4 times"
I've been to many a range with front rests and sandbags. The non-vet AR shooter always seems to be shooting at 50 yards from some kind of seated offhand position and is satisfied being on paper.
Teach them the fundamentals. They they will know when its the ammo and you won't have to tell them.
Another tidbit that applies to everything, not just shooting rifles for precision.
Is that from
bigger kill zone than generally assumed?
long chase after wounding?
short firing distance making the first two less relevant?
I don't hunt deer or anything else besides paper cardboard and steel, so I wouldn't have a clue.
Just me noticing how the average guy hunts:
Yes bigger kill zone than you are told. If necessary the first shot slows em down, more shots kills em. But, the kill zone for a quick kill is not large.
Yes some tracking. After dark you might hear the phrase “I got an animal down and I need help finding it”
Couple hundred yards or less is probably the majority, that’s my guess though.
And, to be clear, thats not how I hunt. Dad taught us we should try for “one shot, one kill”
In reality, probably a lot fewer "hunters" out here than people think or want to believe. Throwing out feed, setting up on bait, etc. is just killing.
Back to helping someone, I think it's mostly in the approach and the recognition on the shooters part that they don't have the solution and it can't hurt. Also, don't be a pest to them either.
Back to helping someone, I think it's mostly in the approach and the recognition on the shooters part that they don't have the solution and it can't hurt. Also, don't be a pest to them either.
Shooting fundamentals are more important. There's more stuffing moving around and NPA, follow-through, etc. make a bigger difference vs. bolt actions.
However, the mechanical system is also flimsy. You're talking with most AR's a super thin-wall aluminum shell (Upper receiver) that has a clearance-fit barrel slid in, then clamped in place by a 33-85ft-lb torqued nut. Compare that to a bigger diameter barrel and thicker sidewall 4140, 4130, or 400 series stainless receiver directly threaded together with a 1.062" thread at 50-150 ft-lb. Now add in the gas system, moving parts, loosey goosey bolt/barrel extension fit, variable upper/bcg fit, hammer lock time etc...
In a bolt action you might see some differences between bare muzzle, suppressor, brake, different brands of brakes etc.. but you're talking the difference between 0.6 MOA and 0.8 MOA or maybe in a worst case 1.5 MOA (unless something is really F'd up). In a gas gun it's the difference between .7 MOA and 3 MOA. Literally one little thing like changing from one brake to another. There's just a laundry list of things in gas guns that each one can individually make the gun no-better-than 2 MOA.
However, the mechanical system is also flimsy. You're talking with most AR's a super thin-wall aluminum shell (Upper receiver) that has a clearance-fit barrel slid in, then clamped in place by a 33-85ft-lb torqued nut. Compare that to a bigger diameter barrel and thicker sidewall 4140, 4130, or 400 series stainless receiver directly threaded together with a 1.062" thread at 50-150 ft-lb. Now add in the gas system, moving parts, loosey goosey bolt/barrel extension fit, variable upper/bcg fit, hammer lock time etc...
In a bolt action you might see some differences between bare muzzle, suppressor, brake, different brands of brakes etc.. but you're talking the difference between 0.6 MOA and 0.8 MOA or maybe in a worst case 1.5 MOA (unless something is really F'd up). In a gas gun it's the difference between .7 MOA and 3 MOA. Literally one little thing like changing from one brake to another. There's just a laundry list of things in gas guns that each one can individually make the gun no-better-than 2 MOA.
This is kinda what I was getting at earlier. Of course fundamentals, ammo, etc. matters but also consider that there are a lot of AR owners who don't know what proper torque specs are for castle nut, barrel nut, muzzle device, barrel extension is out of alignment, etc...imagine trying to shoot a factory gun that only had the barrel nut torqued to 10 ft-lbs or has the muzzle device cranked on way too tight or barely torqued down.....so many variables/unknowns in a gun you didn't build or check yourself.
When you add the above to shitty ammo/fundamentals it's stacking shit on top of shit and the end result is shit
I did not read many of the replies.
I have long wondered this as well.
The issues I think apply are
Light weight rifles with light barrels.
Muzzle blast and action blast.
Slow lock time.
Long, slow recoil impulse.
Mindset of "average" AR shooter is not geared toward precision.
Crap ammo that many AR shooters use.
I have long wondered this as well.
The issues I think apply are
Light weight rifles with light barrels.
Muzzle blast and action blast.
Slow lock time.
Long, slow recoil impulse.
Mindset of "average" AR shooter is not geared toward precision.
Crap ammo that many AR shooters use.
^ This. While the rest is also true, flaws in fundamentals really rear their head with the additional lock time and heavier trigger. You will see more disparity over time between an average AR shooter who progresses into a good one, than you will with an average bolt gun shooter who progresses into a good one.
Obviously the systems generally have a tolerance and rigidity disparity as well, but I'm trying to avoid addressing that to cover the gist of the original question by the OP.
Without doing a ton of research into it again. Lock time for an AR is often more than DOUBLE that over a bolt action rifle. That means twice as much recoil anticipation (shouldering) during the lock time process, twice as much sympathetic manipulation with other fingers, twice as much flinch, twice as much shift from improper breathing technique or improper rear bag manipulation, etc... etc...
Just a few thousandths of deviation at the muzzle will mean a lot downrange.
Just a few thousandths of deviation at the muzzle will mean a lot downrange.
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I would bet flinching does have a lot to do with it. I handed many a friend my old 454 casull with an empty chamber and watched them flinch so badly upon pulling the trigger that had there been a round in the chamber, they would have hit dirt 10 feet in front of them.
I've seen worse. Generally I agree... but sometimes components align to make something truly spectacularly horrible.
I wasn't implying ammo would fix those guys issues.
I was implying they flat out didn't know what the heck they were doing.
Not adjusting his cross hairs after every shot, was my point. And his using M855 ammo ( while adjusting the crosshairs after every shot ) could be as much fun as a dog chasing its tail... but he probably would never get any meaningful or helpful learning out of it.
I did explain to him the errors of his constant scope adjusting.
My bad on not filling in the specifics... but I figured everyone realized the guy shouldn't be adjusting after every shot. Regardless of ammo used.
In his mind.. the rifle was gonna do all the hard precision work for him.... because he paid so much for it.
It's something I see in many aspects of gear-using activities. Buying great gear sure reduces anxiety about whether your gear is "good enough" but some folks take that too far and assume it does everything for them. I see it in cycling and in alpine skiing for sure, expecting the gear to do too much of the work. And using it incorrectly, then saying "it's shit!" or blaming self for not buying what's "right for them."
Were you shooting from a supported position or off-hand? If shooting from a supported position, using adequate fundamentals and using an AR with iron sights that have been properly bore sighted for you, then you should be able to hit a 1' by 1' target all day long regardless of the barrel length. It is true that the longer the sight radius the more accurate that you should shoot though. 100 yards is not that far.
1ft square targets with decent contrast with the background with an M4 you should probably be able to hit to at least 300yd fairly reliably from a prone position or anything supported.
The old USMC table 1 500yd line shooting an E-mod was "gravy" points if you had any semblance of wind reading ability.
I used to spend all-day/all-week testing rifles for a manufacturer at a local shooting range in the SLC area, and frequented the range for many years doing load development and zero confirmation, so I got to notice a lot of habits of shooters, especially around and leading up to rifle hunting season.
Factor I:
One of the biggest things I noticed, besides what everyone has mentioned already, was loose and improperly-mounted scopes/rings, or cheap pieces of trash China scopes that backlash and fail mechanically within a few rounds. Total waste of time buying that and bringing it to the range. Anytime I see single fastener rings and some weird Chinesium piece of excrement, I know the shooter is not going to have a good experience. What torque spec was used to tighten down the single fastener rings with their Cobalt or Harbor Freight driver? Anyone’s guess.
This applied more to bolt guns as well, where recoil would loosen their set-up very quickly, especially guys shooting .300 Win Mag.
Factor II:
For “fundamentals", these guys are yanking their heads up off the comb to try to see what happened. All the other fundamentals were non-existent, showing a lack of any formal or productive training.
This is why I started my kids out with the BB gun in the back yard with tin cans, with full demonstration and coaching through fundamentals of rifle marksmanship.
As a result, my 75lb 9yr-old is making high probability 1st-round hits on steel out to 800yds, and high probability hits on vital zone flashers out to 400yds. I’ve been taking him to the range every month for the last 2 years, less frequently from age 4-7, but more than usual. He’s doing this with lightweight 6.5 Grendel AR-15s. I think he’s only shot 5.56 once with a 10” suppressed blaster.
He shoots the heavy .260 Rem LR-260 gasser well too. He never had an opportunity to learn bad habits out of the gate.
Factor I:
One of the biggest things I noticed, besides what everyone has mentioned already, was loose and improperly-mounted scopes/rings, or cheap pieces of trash China scopes that backlash and fail mechanically within a few rounds. Total waste of time buying that and bringing it to the range. Anytime I see single fastener rings and some weird Chinesium piece of excrement, I know the shooter is not going to have a good experience. What torque spec was used to tighten down the single fastener rings with their Cobalt or Harbor Freight driver? Anyone’s guess.
This applied more to bolt guns as well, where recoil would loosen their set-up very quickly, especially guys shooting .300 Win Mag.
Factor II:
For “fundamentals", these guys are yanking their heads up off the comb to try to see what happened. All the other fundamentals were non-existent, showing a lack of any formal or productive training.
This is why I started my kids out with the BB gun in the back yard with tin cans, with full demonstration and coaching through fundamentals of rifle marksmanship.
As a result, my 75lb 9yr-old is making high probability 1st-round hits on steel out to 800yds, and high probability hits on vital zone flashers out to 400yds. I’ve been taking him to the range every month for the last 2 years, less frequently from age 4-7, but more than usual. He’s doing this with lightweight 6.5 Grendel AR-15s. I think he’s only shot 5.56 once with a 10” suppressed blaster.
He shoots the heavy .260 Rem LR-260 gasser well too. He never had an opportunity to learn bad habits out of the gate.
With AR-15s at local ranges, there are maybe 3 main camps:
Camp 1 brings a 16” CLGS vismod-15 with carbine handguards, FSB, cheapest option they could find blaster with Barska optic/laser combo shooting Wolf Steel case or imported fodder. Shot groups look like a full choke shotgun pattern, once on-paper. Just having fun, no signs of any training or much experience, no big deal as long as they’re safe.
Camp 2 brings a mid-grade AR with decent optics and shoots pretty tight groups with better ammo, shows signs of training and experience.
Camp 3 is the competitor/reloader/pro shooter with higher-end rifles, optics, and ammo just checking zeros or getting some range time, working on load development, with very good fundamentals and experience, with groups that show it.
AR-15/AR-10 Camps 2 & 3 easily out-shoot the seasonal rifle hunter w/ Cabella’s scope bolt gun shooters, and it’s not even close.
These are just my observations over a long period of time in one specific location in the Country, but I suspect you all have seen the same or similar things at your local ranges. I don’t encourage disparaging the cheap AR/Barska shooters, as we need to promote more participation in the shooting disciplines.
Camp 1 brings a 16” CLGS vismod-15 with carbine handguards, FSB, cheapest option they could find blaster with Barska optic/laser combo shooting Wolf Steel case or imported fodder. Shot groups look like a full choke shotgun pattern, once on-paper. Just having fun, no signs of any training or much experience, no big deal as long as they’re safe.
Camp 2 brings a mid-grade AR with decent optics and shoots pretty tight groups with better ammo, shows signs of training and experience.
Camp 3 is the competitor/reloader/pro shooter with higher-end rifles, optics, and ammo just checking zeros or getting some range time, working on load development, with very good fundamentals and experience, with groups that show it.
AR-15/AR-10 Camps 2 & 3 easily out-shoot the seasonal rifle hunter w/ Cabella’s scope bolt gun shooters, and it’s not even close.
These are just my observations over a long period of time in one specific location in the Country, but I suspect you all have seen the same or similar things at your local ranges. I don’t encourage disparaging the cheap AR/Barska shooters, as we need to promote more participation in the shooting disciplines.
I think 85% of it is shooting fundamentals. I've seen people forget to take the safety off and jerk the whole table when they yank the trigger. If a shooter wants to be a good shot and handles the gun like a precision instrument you know quick if you have a junk barrel or ammo. Reload and it takes that part out of the equation. Most of the 16 inch gov. barrel shooters are just burning up ammo.
And yet I’d still rather have them out there doing that than so many other things. For many, that translates into further interest in some sort of other shooting type.
I agree 100%. Nothing wrong with going out and burning up ammo just for fun.
