almost as stupid as not issuing the correct lube for the m14
- Thread starter Jmccracken1214
- Start date
I bought a MK 4 10x with a Premier reticle back in 94. It sat on a Rem PSS for many years. I paid a lot for it back then. (I was single)
It was considered top end in its day....but has since been surpassed.
I sold it and don't miss it.
They just don't make anything I want...and like Colt and Trijicon...Are living off ther .Mil contracts.
It was considered top end in its day....but has since been surpassed.
I sold it and don't miss it.
They just don't make anything I want...and like Colt and Trijicon...Are living off ther .Mil contracts.
Who had better scopes back in 2004? Off the top of my head I don’t remember any. I think the M49 was still the most used sporting scope. Damn good glass for that time.
I’m sure but we were still using minute dials and milk reticles. Doing basic army wind formula math and calculating 1 MOA change for every 20 degrees. The snipping community didn’t even have a general consensus on what effect humidity had on the bullet.
until the war really kicked off we were still in the dark age of sniping.
I don't hate Leupold, and I do have some of their stuff. Usually, though I look other places first.
Not disputing any of that as I lived it....
You asked who had better scopes in 2004...
I answered
Doesn't change the fact their scopes are bottom barrel
Screw em then, dont buy from them. I know I sold my m3 around 2009 or so and haven't looked back. I have all Razor 2s on my precision rigs.
I've tried most of the optic brands including the "Alphas" so I have some perspective on this. I purchased one of the Mark 5 scopes and it is quite nice. Good glass, lightweight, TMR reticle is good enough, and tracks well. My main complaints on the scope are minor - 35mm tube is an oddball, 12.5 mils per rev is just dumb, and the windage alignment takes a little getting used to. That being said the Mark 5 is a good scope.
Leupold survives as a company because they have the hunting community in their pocket. Unfortunately its not because they are an exciting innovative company but quite the opposite. For most shooters, Grandpa and Dad shot it so it must be good and they are still around and offering a solid warranty. On the merits of being a long term business Leupold has done a nice job.
The large jump on the bandwagon from the PRS guys appears to be driven by the sponsored shooters using them and the fact that everybody chases what the "winners" are using. It wouldn't bother me at all but suddenly "Leupold is the greatest and they have me selling all my Nightforce optics" and similar comments are so transparent as to actually turn me off against Leupold. Of course a sponsored shooter should speak well of their companies (honestly and transparently). Just as I know MDT, Curtis, MPA, etc are all good products, the constant shilling becomes more nuisance than anything else. Yes Nightforce was the most amazing last year and suddenly they suck and Leupold is the best, next year it will be Kahles or somebody else.
Sorry for the off topic rant but in honesty I run somewhat against the grain because I dislike the fanboism.... (the main reason I can't bring myself to spend money on a Vortex). Leupold has hurt itself in the precision rifle sector in the past because they want everybody to love them for their name instead of providing what customer is asking for. If they can keep innovating their popularity in these circles will rise.
Leupold survives as a company because they have the hunting community in their pocket. Unfortunately its not because they are an exciting innovative company but quite the opposite. For most shooters, Grandpa and Dad shot it so it must be good and they are still around and offering a solid warranty. On the merits of being a long term business Leupold has done a nice job.
The large jump on the bandwagon from the PRS guys appears to be driven by the sponsored shooters using them and the fact that everybody chases what the "winners" are using. It wouldn't bother me at all but suddenly "Leupold is the greatest and they have me selling all my Nightforce optics" and similar comments are so transparent as to actually turn me off against Leupold. Of course a sponsored shooter should speak well of their companies (honestly and transparently). Just as I know MDT, Curtis, MPA, etc are all good products, the constant shilling becomes more nuisance than anything else. Yes Nightforce was the most amazing last year and suddenly they suck and Leupold is the best, next year it will be Kahles or somebody else.
Sorry for the off topic rant but in honesty I run somewhat against the grain because I dislike the fanboism.... (the main reason I can't bring myself to spend money on a Vortex). Leupold has hurt itself in the precision rifle sector in the past because they want everybody to love them for their name instead of providing what customer is asking for. If they can keep innovating their popularity in these circles will rise.
It's a huge market for optics. There is surely enough variety to cater for everyone.
Just like vodka, thank fuck.
Just like vodka, thank fuck.
I have a lot of different brand scopes, but most all of my hunting rifles have Leupold's with a custom turret on them and have been used all over the world without any failures to date.
It's not Nostalgia, it's a really simple concept, when I need them to work, they work.
That type of dependability is why I've been using Leopold scope's for 40+ years.
It's a big market, so If Leupold doesn't make a scope that has the all the features that will tickle your balls or twat, buy another brand scope that does.
They've been around for over 100 years, I'm sure Leupold will get over it.
It's not Nostalgia, it's a really simple concept, when I need them to work, they work.
That type of dependability is why I've been using Leopold scope's for 40+ years.
It's a big market, so If Leupold doesn't make a scope that has the all the features that will tickle your balls or twat, buy another brand scope that does.
They've been around for over 100 years, I'm sure Leupold will get over it.
I have one Leopold scope - Fx3 30x silhouette scope in MOA. I think it is very clear and small and light. Perfect for my 22 and having fun.
I have no desire for any of their other scopes - unless I needed super lightweight for hunting. Then I might look into them more. There are just better offerings in most other lines for equal dollars.
Nightforce Atacr’s on all my other rifles. I just like the way they are set up with their controls, reticles and the glass. They seem to have exactly what I want to shoot with.
Robb
I have no desire for any of their other scopes - unless I needed super lightweight for hunting. Then I might look into them more. There are just better offerings in most other lines for equal dollars.
Nightforce Atacr’s on all my other rifles. I just like the way they are set up with their controls, reticles and the glass. They seem to have exactly what I want to shoot with.
Robb
the mark 4s were pieces of shit. i still have 2 of them, mostly bc i don’t want to give them away. leupold gets a bad rap bc they deserve it. leupolds never tracked for shit. maybe they put out a better scope now but i will never own one. i’ve wasted enough money with them in the past.
I have two mark 5s. They were given to me.
there are operational organizations out there buying the shit out of the MK 5s. The MK5s are awesome. Is much rather dudes sending their money to leupold than to vortex paying for assembly line made shit scopes.
there are operational organizations out there buying the shit out of the MK 5s. The MK5s are awesome. Is much rather dudes sending their money to leupold than to vortex paying for assembly line made shit scopes.
Leupold Mk 5 isn't made on a production line?
Hand rolled between the thighs of a gorgeous blonde barmaid instead?
Actually they are hand assembled by two guys called Chuck and Billybob whose low IQs mean they don't get side tracked easily so generally do a good job at assembling them. It's only when they start thinking about their hot blonde cousins that the QC starts to drop.Leupold Mk 5 isn't made on a production line?
Hand rolled between the thighs of a gorgeous blonde barmaid instead?
Unlike those shitty Razors that are only made in Japan, a country hardly known for meticulous attention to detail and fine craftsmanship.....
I still have a MK4 60035 floating around on an AR somewhere. What a pain in the fucking ass!
If I were a hunter, I probably wouldn't hate them as much. They do have light scopes, and being lightweight does seem like a virtue in that application. I could maybe even see them being usable for longer-range shooting.
As a tactical/3gun guy, what I think of with Leupold is:
1. VX-5 / VX-6 lines don't have any LPVOs with decent reticles, but cost money like a Razor Gen2-E or Tango6T.
2. The Freedom RDS was a POS reliability-wise (despite the BDC turret version seeming like a good idea)
3. The D-EVO was just slightly under-baked, and then dropped from the line-up before it should have been.
4. The LCO seems tremendously overpriced.
5. The Mk6 and Mk8 LPVOs have been made obsolete by the Razor Gen3.
6. The DPP Micro was an interesting idea with terrible implementation.
The only Leupy stuff I run at this point is a DPP (on my X5 Legion) and a D-EVO, and the latter is still TBD on whether I'm keeping it. What kills me about Leupold is that they're not THAT far from having what I want, but their marketing dept keeps dropping the ball completely. Instead of sucking it up and talking to expert users about what the market is really looking for, they just pay dudes to write favorable reviews of things that aren't all that good.
I'm pragmatic - I buy the best stuff I can that fits my budget and use case. If it's Vortex, it's Vortex. If it's Sig, it's Sig. But Leupold just seems to have very, very little that fits the bill for me.
As a tactical/3gun guy, what I think of with Leupold is:
1. VX-5 / VX-6 lines don't have any LPVOs with decent reticles, but cost money like a Razor Gen2-E or Tango6T.
2. The Freedom RDS was a POS reliability-wise (despite the BDC turret version seeming like a good idea)
3. The D-EVO was just slightly under-baked, and then dropped from the line-up before it should have been.
4. The LCO seems tremendously overpriced.
5. The Mk6 and Mk8 LPVOs have been made obsolete by the Razor Gen3.
6. The DPP Micro was an interesting idea with terrible implementation.
The only Leupy stuff I run at this point is a DPP (on my X5 Legion) and a D-EVO, and the latter is still TBD on whether I'm keeping it. What kills me about Leupold is that they're not THAT far from having what I want, but their marketing dept keeps dropping the ball completely. Instead of sucking it up and talking to expert users about what the market is really looking for, they just pay dudes to write favorable reviews of things that aren't all that good.
I'm pragmatic - I buy the best stuff I can that fits my budget and use case. If it's Vortex, it's Vortex. If it's Sig, it's Sig. But Leupold just seems to have very, very little that fits the bill for me.
Vortex is made in the same assembly line as bushenell with a lot of the same internals. Also vortex other than their top line will only use 1 HELR type lense in the whole system and advertise as the whole scope is of that quality glass. They spend so much money on marketing and paying reviewers because they can afford it when their equipment is cheap as your Kmart scopes.Leupold Mk 5 isn't made on a production line?
Hand rolled between the thighs of a gorgeous blonde barmaid instead?
so that’s great people want to hate on leupold but vortex has won over the young kids by advertising. I’d personally rather stick with leupold or a German company. With the .mil discount with leupold you really can’t beat it for the latest MK series....prob why the agencies and units were buying up the MK5.
To end your grief and suffering, send them to me, I'll pay shipping ?
How much more would you pay? That's the point.
The point is, I'm trying to relieve this mans suffering.
How he's survived this long being tormented by not one, but TWO Leupold MK4 POS scopes is beyond belief.
The sooner he sends them to me, the better he and his family will feel.
They'll be coming to a smoke free home and will be well cared for.
This offer is extended to anyone suffering like this man.
I would never have voluntarily paid actual dollars for any Leupold scope. I’ve been a traditional SB/Hensoldt snob and have recently snagged a couple of TT’s and ZCO’s.
I did a straight trade deal last year for a $18,000 thermal optic (it was one of my thermals) for a bevy of gear. Tossed into the mix was a Leupy MK5 HD 3.8-18 (H59) in Badger C1 mount. I didn’t pay any attention to the scope at all, thinking it was some crappy $300 Walmart glass thrown in just to add another line item in the trade.
After a couple of months, I bumped into the scope in my ever-growing neglected pile of crap in a back room that never gets visited. I had just built a cheap AR and was looking for a cheap optic to pair with it, so I grabbed the MK5. I went out to my private range to sight it in. When I looked through it, I remember being stunned and saying “Whoa!” Then I cranked it all the way to 18x and said “Whoa!” again.
The awkward 35mm tube really lets a good amount of light through, and the scope is both very light and relatively short, which is important to me because I use NV and Thermal clip-ons with all of my rifles.
In short, I am blown away by how good the MK5 HD performs and have a new appreciation for Leupold, who I always held in low esteem as a second or third-rate optics manufacturer.
They are still “second tier,” but between the MK8 and MK5 at least we know they are capable of making a decent optic.
I did a straight trade deal last year for a $18,000 thermal optic (it was one of my thermals) for a bevy of gear. Tossed into the mix was a Leupy MK5 HD 3.8-18 (H59) in Badger C1 mount. I didn’t pay any attention to the scope at all, thinking it was some crappy $300 Walmart glass thrown in just to add another line item in the trade.
After a couple of months, I bumped into the scope in my ever-growing neglected pile of crap in a back room that never gets visited. I had just built a cheap AR and was looking for a cheap optic to pair with it, so I grabbed the MK5. I went out to my private range to sight it in. When I looked through it, I remember being stunned and saying “Whoa!” Then I cranked it all the way to 18x and said “Whoa!” again.
The awkward 35mm tube really lets a good amount of light through, and the scope is both very light and relatively short, which is important to me because I use NV and Thermal clip-ons with all of my rifles.
In short, I am blown away by how good the MK5 HD performs and have a new appreciation for Leupold, who I always held in low esteem as a second or third-rate optics manufacturer.
They are still “second tier,” but between the MK8 and MK5 at least we know they are capable of making a decent optic.
What a load of bollocks, all the Vortex scopes I've owned and still own have been based on merit not fancy marketing or BS reviews.
The first Vortex scope I owned I bought to replace a Mark 4, when comparing the two side to side the Vortex was just better in every way so kept it and sold the Leupold.
If it weren't for companies like Vortex driving innovation we would still still be stuck with scopes like the Mark 4.
It's not a coincidence that after the release of the PST and Razor scopes that a rapid improvement of scopes occurred.
I don't hate Leupold but until they offer a product I actually want I won't be buying another, if I want a hunting scope with a SFP duplex reticle I know where to go.
The VX5/6 line of scopes are still very nice scopes, lightweight, good turret, good FOV and good glass, but the lack of MRAD or FFP options and lack of Miling type reticles means they are of no interest to me, yes there is one MRAD VX5 model now but it's still only SFP, and the lack of firedot stops it being as good of a crossover scope as it could have been.
I think everyone here is talking about top line Vortex. There’s plenty of hate here for lower tier Vortex.
@Jmccracken1214 I shoot a 2k dollar AMG, because it is “Made Right, Made Here” the same reason that I had all those beloved VX3s. I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that that scope had to come from Vortex. Leupold should have given us that scope 10 years ago. Years ago the market wanted something to compete with S&B, Premier (talk about under Leupold’s nose!) had to do it. Later Vortex did it under 2k. Even now the market clamors for a mid-powered, lightweight, Mil, FFP, long range hunting scope, and have for over 5 years. Should be Leupold’s wheelhouse! Nope, Bushnell and March had to do it. Why didn’t George (GAP) go to Leupold? Or why wouldn’t they listen?
I could go on and on about Leupold. It’s sufficient to say it’s hard for me to conceptually grasp Leupold’s decisions without seeing betrayal.
It seems they are listening.
www.leupold.com
The Mark 5HD and PR2 Reticle | Leupold
Developed with input from the country’s top competitors and professional shooters, the Mark 5HD with PR2 reticles are specifically designed for long-range speed and precision. Be Relentless
www.leupold.com Step in the right direction but illumination(without costing an arm and a leg)? Reticle for the 3-18? Other scopes in the lineup?It seems they are listening.
The Mark 5HD and PR2 Reticle | Leupold
Developed with input from the country’s top competitors and professional shooters, the Mark 5HD with PR2 reticles are specifically designed for long-range speed and precision. Be Relentless
I think you're seeing passion about Leupold because people WANT them to be successful. I could care less about many other brands. I want Leupold to be successful for nostalgia, patriotism, tradition, made in the USA, etc etc and they continually come up short.
I guess it's one step at a time and thankfully there's 20 other scope manufacturers out there to take up the slack.
They have all the individual parts to potentially make what people here (mostly me) bitch about but just can't put them together in the correct order.
I can't help but think they've tried in the past to appeal to this crowd but failed and rather than try taking risks again they are sticking to what they know (Fudd scopes) and very cautiously creeping forward.
I still think the VX5/VX6 could be made into the perfect crossover scope if they would just do FFP, MRAD and use the right reticle.
I’m 100% happy with my mk5, just wish my 3.6-18 was illuminated for hunting. But the cost is kind of crazy for them to have that on the scope.
I can't speak to that one but I do know that chart is incomplete. I was in a class this last fall with frank and Mark where they tested all ours and there was a mk5 5x25 moa scope that stopped moving half way up its elevation and it ended up being replaced on the line. It was a brand new scope
I'm a poor, so I ended up with a few MK4s, one 10x, and one 8-25x. I haven't had an issue with them yet so I have been happy so far, but as a poor I don't get to run them as often/hard as the others do.
I had a uso st-10 that I really liked, but compared to the mk4 10x it was noticeably darker, so it went down the road for the 8-25, and while it hasn't let me down, I also haven't enjoyed it as much as I liked that st-10. I wish I still had that scope.
Alternatively, I have a PST gen 1 on my primary "EDC" rifle. Comparing it to the mk4s I think the pst is just as bright, maybe brighter. Sometimes I think about swapping the 8-25 out for a pair of PSTs.
I had a uso st-10 that I really liked, but compared to the mk4 10x it was noticeably darker, so it went down the road for the 8-25, and while it hasn't let me down, I also haven't enjoyed it as much as I liked that st-10. I wish I still had that scope.
Alternatively, I have a PST gen 1 on my primary "EDC" rifle. Comparing it to the mk4s I think the pst is just as bright, maybe brighter. Sometimes I think about swapping the 8-25 out for a pair of PSTs.
I've had Kahles, Schmidt & Bender for years.
Only came across the Razor II last year.
It's been a great experience for me.
I find it excellent for my purposes.
Don't "hate" Leupold, just don't want to own one.
There are some petty people here.
Moment they detect a different opinion, they drop their shit, and start whining.
High Maintenance Girlie Men.
Bet they hit the ignore button too.
You may not agree with everyone you meet, but they still know something you do not.
That aside, there are some truly funny, sick, and twisted guys here too.
My kind of scum.
Only came across the Razor II last year.
It's been a great experience for me.
I find it excellent for my purposes.
Don't "hate" Leupold, just don't want to own one.
There are some petty people here.
Moment they detect a different opinion, they drop their shit, and start whining.
High Maintenance Girlie Men.
Bet they hit the ignore button too.
You may not agree with everyone you meet, but they still know something you do not.
That aside, there are some truly funny, sick, and twisted guys here too.
My kind of scum.
In full disclosure, I am a fan of Leopold, I think that from 2000 to 2010ish they really lagged behind the rest of the market in terms of features. I think that in the last 10 years they have turned this around a good bit. I do think that they are a high volume manufacture and that their QC process even today could be improved upon. With that being said, they have a solid record of taking care of any issues that may pop up.
As much as I am a fan out the Mk5 line, there are better optics out there but they do come at a premium and depending on the shooter, that may or may not be worth it
I think that 90 percent of that hate that you see is the same tribal bullshit you see with sports teams, and pick up trucks and muscle cars. IMO a lot of time the criticisms are quite disingenuous where people will compare a 2000 vs 4500 dollar optic. Also, what I find somewhat funny is when somebody will make a criticism of Leupold QC while driving a Ford or Dodge truck, I mean come on man.... QC can not be that big of an issue if you are willing to put your family in one of those vehicles.... LOL
give me 70% of what i have in them and they are yours. admittedly 70% is higher than they are worth.
Curious about something...
Why do you feel the 35mm tube is awkward? I would consider moving a heavy king size mattress by ones self awkward, I would also consider controls of an HK91/Mp5 to be awkward, I would consider the take down process of an AN94 to be somewhat awkward. I am not sure how a 35mm thicker main tube is more or less awkward than say a 34mm tube?
Did you ever send them back to get them fixed?
It's easier to call them a piece of shit, then use the lifetime warranty or sell it.
Built for a lifetime of performance - if at any time your Leupold riflescope, mounts, red dot, binocular, or spotting scope doesn't perform, we will repair or replace it for free - whether you're the original owner or not. You don't need proof of ownership or a warranty card, and there's no time limit.
Big deal...it's because of vortex almost every scope mfg now does this... Where was this unconditional warrenty 10 years ago from Leupold?
It's a scope man don't get your feelings hurt because some people don't like the company and think their product is garbage
Leupold has always had that warranty...I sent a M3 back in 2001 that they replaced no questions asked. At least as long as I’ve been paying attention that’s been their warranty.
Vortex released their first products in 2004 wasn’t it?
Vortex released their first products in 2004 wasn’t it?
I don't know man... Back 2004 I ordered a spotter scope direct from them, and after about a month of using decided that I really needed something different and ask them if they would exchange it for an MR/T and did so with no real questions other than is there any thing wrong with it, Told them no and they said go ahead send it in and they would send out the MR/T.
Just seems weird
Pretty sure it was for the original owner back than but I could be wrong.
As an owner of serveral mid priced Leupolds, they work, I was able to get mil/mil and FFP and put them on mid priced, multi iteration project rifles with out breaking the bank. The single LRP on the tracking list was mine, perfect no, adequate yes. 5 mil sky scraper turrets, they suck. <$800 = tolerable for the amount of use they'll see.
I'd do a Mark5. A 3.6-18 would be a huge upgrade from a 6-18 Mark AR that is on a shelf, or a 6-18 VX Freedom w side parralax that was priced incorrectly and low sitting on my .20 Tactical AR.
Burris XTRII, GOOD! after I sent it back.
I did just recieve my first GenII Razor, Thanks to @LibertyOptics.
I'd do a Mark5. A 3.6-18 would be a huge upgrade from a 6-18 Mark AR that is on a shelf, or a 6-18 VX Freedom w side parralax that was priced incorrectly and low sitting on my .20 Tactical AR.
Burris XTRII, GOOD! after I sent it back.
I did just recieve my first GenII Razor, Thanks to @LibertyOptics.
When I signed on here in 2003 this list would have been much, much shorter. Then, IIRC, it may have only consisted of S&B, Nightforce and Leupold MKIV (for the "really poors").
As new kids on the block jumped in Leupold got bumped off the radar fast. For many years they acted as if they didn't care. After all, they owned the hunting optic market. Fast forward (sarcasm) 18 years and they are at least trying. Selling optics to this crowd is as much marketing as actual product. Optics sellers must keep adding new bells and whistles to keep us interested. What I have seen from my time in the firearms industry is it isn't what you make, you must make it first. It isn't what you make, you must market it better.
@TheHorta does that from time to time...hes a boomer gotta cut him some slack when he's not taking his old people meds....
