Why the hate on a forward assist?

[cas6969]

2) during admin load out, after a full rack, quarter rack to check that the first round is indeed chambered, then use forward assist to ensure it is indeed locked in battery

Sat out in the yard 3 nights calling for coyotes last month. First night I chamber checked. Second night I chamber checked. Third night I thought to myself "What are you doing, you've loaded thousands of mags at speeds without issue, just drop the bolt." So I banged the bottom of the mag and dropped the bolt. A few hours later when I got back inside I dropped the mag, racked the bolt and... nothing. No round in the chamber. "Doh!"

I was SHOCKED that I didn't see anything that night, normally that'd be the perfect time for the universe and it's sense of humor with me.

 

[Huskydriver]

The M110 would've been a better gun with a FA. I can't tell you how many times one of those dirty, sludgy, POS failed to fully chamber. I have an SLR B-30 in 6.5 CM. I shoot it suppressed 101% of the time. Same shit. As soon as it gets dry it needs help chambering.

I am baffled by the Reddit Hobbits that think a FA is a bad thing. I would say the one difference is most of our opinions are formed about FA with the context of two points. All factory ammo and secondary weapons. Without reloading errors in the mix the probability of fatal jams due to out of spec ammo is pretty low. That means most issues can be overcome by a FA. And if it can't, you transition to a secondary weapon. When you're joe-blow, it's more likely due to your shitty ammo. And the likelihood of a semi-permanent jam from pushing something that shouldn't have gone in your chamber is higher. And when that happens, yOuRWhoLeraANgeDay is over!

I've watched a lot of these types of beliefs and techniques change over the last two and a half decades. Shotguns with a dry husk vs. loaded and safety. Bolt overrides. Checking your six before moving from cover. New, young guys come along and reinvent the wheel. Some guys don't know why we did certain things in the first place and without knowing the "why" just make their own assumptions and go in random directions. Some young guys place an over importance on some random aspect and get wound up about it and make it a sacred cow. This is just another one of those things. If someone doesn't want a FA on their gun, fine. But I'll probably just think less of them.

That is exactly what I have been experiencing with my mws supressed and when I went looking for fa equipped sr25 cut uppers....there just are not a lot of options out there.

The thought had really crossed my mind "was the 110 that reliable supressed all the time it really never needed it?" So thanks for that reality check.

I finally snagged a stag Sr25 cut upper last year on a gamble dirt cheap that has a FA and slapped an ar10 carrier with teeth on it and it's ran great so far but seemed odd there is so much anti fa sentiment out there as I talked with a few companies

 

[Niles Coyote]

If your in a situation where you need to fire a round right TF now are you going to take the time to smack the FA and try attempt two or smack the mag, rack the action and re-engage?

 

[HOOFER]

If your in a situation where you need to fire a round right TF now are you going to take the time to smack the FA and try attempt two or smack the mag, rack the action and re-engage?

It’s not for that. If it was out of battery Your hammer would still have fallen and closed your bolt.

Immediate action would say tap rack reassess.

Tapping your forward assist after press checking prior to that would 10/10 times negated that malfunction from existing and you woulda went boom instead of click.

 

[Squibbler]

I have grown to find that FA is essential, IMO. Multiple times I have utilized it for when things got gummy, but the main reason is below freezing temps. Cold weather and snow have had an effect on bolt closures for me. Worst case, it took multiple rackings to finally get bolt closure on a platform without FA. Since then, I have considered it a priority feature for myself.

 

[Blaster7Romeo]

I used my Forward Assist in a firefight in Iraq...

 

[Docsherm]

Nobody needs a Forward Assist ...... until you NEED a Forward Assist........

 

[S197]

I've heard several reasons.
If you have a bad round, it doesn't need to be forced into the chamber.
Also it creates another failure point. There is a video from IV8888 that shows when a forward assist fails it can completely shut down a gun.

I can see both sides, but then again none of my rifles have a forward assist on them at all.

The FA was not intended for bad rounds, it was in case dirt, debris or carbon stopped the bcg from seating properly.

 

[JS8588]

I was indifferent on the subject until the St. Kyle incident. Saved him. I'll stick with the FA, thanks.

 

[HOOFER]

I was indifferent on the subject until the St. Kyle incident. Saved him. I'll stick with the FA, thanks.

Lol. Made me think of this I saw today. Someone should edit it to say a poor with no Forward assist… proceeds to get face bashed in by the truck of a skateboard.

 

[Son of Dorn]

For my actual 2 cents on the matter, I don't think your average civilian shooter needs a forward assist most of the time. We're not keeping our rifles in the misery of the Indochinese jungle, we can clean them more often, we can curate our ammo better, our magazines don't have to be semi-disposable aluminium parts. If you're doing some more active competitive shooting, hunting or hiking in rougher conditions, or have a messed up bolt system, a forward assist helps. But it's not, strictly speaking, a 100% requirement.

That said, it was incorporated into the XM16E1 design for good reason(s) and there's no real reason NOT to have one on your rifle whether you're civilian or otherwise. It's a matter of convenience for when you do need it. The only AR-15 pattern rifles I'd ever have without one would be a pre-E1/A1 version, if I really wanted one. Otherwise I'm gonna have a forward assist on all of them even if I never use it past idly poking it now and then because that teardrop is awful tempting to poke at.

Now, on the subject of the AR-10, Stoner's original design didn't include one and the SR25, M110, or LMT 7.62mm rifles don't have one, either. Is there something about the BCG mass, or the buffer, or just the larger 7.62 case that makes a forward assist unnecessary to the design? Has anyone had a time when they absolutely needed the forward assist on their 7.62 in the field?

 

[tex68w]

I’ve had multiple 25’s and I’ve never needed it but I wasn’t hunting stealthily with them and I was never down range with one in hand.

 

[fanninland]

I’ve experienced a couple sticky bolt closures on a LWRC REPR where I had to do the thumb nudge thru the ejection port. This was with shiny new brass factory ammo. Shot a bunch with AR15 platform, not near as much AR10, so this left me wondering why no FA on what I’d consider a pretty nice rifle (definitely not a budget build). Three possible causes came to mind:
1) very low round count almost new rifle, not “broken in?”
2) replaced factory buffer with JP SCS
3) I’m shooting suppressed (even though it was good ammo thru piston system).

So I’m asking same question as Son of Dorn, is there something on AR10 that precludes need of FA more so than an AR15? Sure the bolt mass is and buffer spring is larger, but so is the system it’s driving. Proportionally isnt it similar to an AR15 ?

Edit: Reubenski posted reply above as I was typing…

 

[TriggerTX]

I on multiple occasions in Iraq like Baghdad (& Sadr City) and Mosul would be in a structure, hide, or night infil where I needed to preform operations with the bolt but did not wish to drop the bolt catch or rack it and let go for all the world to hear. When riding a dirty (dirt/carbon) BCG forward, bolt doesn't always go into battery as some have stated.

Like someone just mentioned, the typical civilian may not understand or think its necessary to have or when to use, I suppose Call of Duty should of trained them better.

 

[LRRPF52]

SAS in Borneo:

Son Tay Raiders 1970:

SAS Falklands:

1980s SAS:

North Ireland:

USAF Pararescue (PJs)

USAF Combat Control Team (CCT)

 

[tex68w]

The Chair Force is the one branch that I was aware of having early M16's without the FA. Great pics, thanks for sharing @LRRPF52.

 

[6.5SH]

SAS in Borneo:

Son Tay Raiders 1970:

SAS Falklands:

1980s SAS:

North Ireland:

USAF Pararescue (PJs)

USAF Combat Control Team (CCT)

Best equipment part of the Son Tay pic is the Singlepoint OEG site IMO.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Best equipment part of the Son Tay pic is the Singlepoint OEG site IMO.

How 'bout this apparent Son Tay CAR-15/XM177-ish? Funnily, my own XM177-inspired rifle is almost identical except for the longer barrel and the fixed pre-A1 stock instead of the slider, and the lack of a vintage red-dot. I'd like one, though.

 

[6.5SH]

How 'bout this apparent Son Tay CAR-15/XM177-ish? Funnily, my own XM177-inspired rifle is almost identical except for the longer barrel and the fixed pre-A1 stock instead of the slider, and the lack of a vintage red-dot. I'd like one, though.
View attachment 8029682

No mount but some super cool parts there.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

I like them on my DI guns. Piston doesn't need it. As for silently chambering a round, you can do that without the FA...

 

[wade2big]

I like them on my DI guns. Piston doesn't need it. As for silently chambering a round, you can do that without the FA...

I can’t with my large frames and none of them have a forward assist. I ride hot anyhow so no biggie.

 

[greentick]

What's wrong with the forward assist?

 

[RUTGERS95]

must have imho

 

[msgriff]

I mean, if you’re riding the bolt down slowly anyways…you could just tap in the charging handle in….you don’t NEED to use the FA the to slow sip the bolt into battery….

For immediate action, skip the tap and go to the rack…

AR charging handles don't work like that.

 

[RUTGERS95]

AR charging handles don't work like that.

yeah, that was an odd comment

 

[Matches Malone]

AR charging handles don't work like that.

 

[srt-4_uk]

Lol

 

[RUTGERS95]

stop, just stop, you're being fking retarded; did you not read the post you are responding too initially, do you NOT understand the quiet aspect to that? Not withstanding, no one in their right fking mind rides the ch like that.

that right there was full on arfcom

 

[wade2big]

I did read it. I responded too. Did you? Because we are literally talking about riding the bolt down. Another reason is for a press check. I learned to use the FA like everyone else, but like I said…you don’t NEED it.

I posted that to show you that you could because you said you couldn’t. Yet, I’m retarded? Lol

Now you’re back to the quit aspect.

If you lift the charging handle latch, you can send it home quite. Lol

You’re free to tell me how else you did it on a M110 in the same situation on your combat deployments?

Ps I’ve never been on arcom because arcom is gay. Sounds like you’ve dabbled though…

I doubt that would work after picking a round out of the magazine. I know that it isn’t possible on a double ejector large frame bolt. It takes too much force to depress the ejectors. Neither is the option of pressing it home with your thumb.

 

[Matches Malone]

I doubt that would work after picking a round out of the magazine. I know that it isn’t possible on a double ejector large frame bolt. It takes too much force to depress the ejectors. Neither is the option of pressing it home with your thumb.

It does work. Funny thing about leverage.

Especially on service rifles that have many of rounds thrown through it.

What I’m saying isn’t ground breaking new mind blowing information. I’ve have press checked a m110 before. But you’re right, I have to add that some AR10s can be tight.

I’m not against FA if they have one.

 

[wade2big]

It does work. Funny thing about leverage.

Especially on service rifles that have many of rounds thrown through it.

What I’m saying isn’t ground breaking new mind blowing information. I’ve have press checked a m110 before. But you’re right, I have to add that some AR10s can be tight.

I’m not against FA if they have one.

Not on my large frames. You can push the latch home and press with all your might on the bolt and you ain’t getting it into battery. The bolt has to be racked at least 1/2 way back and dropped to go into battery.

 

[Matches Malone]

Not on my large frames. You can push the latch home and press with all your might on the bolt and you ain’t getting it into battery. The bolt has to be racked at least 1/2 way back and dropped to go into battery.

Are you by one now (ar10)? Push the bolt with your finger..

 

[wade2big]

Are you by one now (ar10)? Push the bolt with your finger..

I have my large frame on my lap. Double ejector bolts though. No amount of thumb pressure will drive the round under the extractor and compress the ejectors when loading out of a magazine. I can press check it like that after it initially goes into battery by dropping the bolt.

I would challenge you to do what you are showing with a small frame after picking up a round out the mag. I can with a shit ton of force get the round to snap under the extractor and compress the ejector causing the bolt to go into battery. It is anything but quiet. Might as well send the bolt home.

Press checking an already chambered round and loading out of a magazine trying to get the bolt into battery are two different things.

 

[Matches Malone]

I have my large frame on my lap. Double ejector bolts though. No amount of thumb pressure will drive the round under the extractor and compress the ejectors when loading out of a magazine. I can press check it like that after it initially goes into battery by dropping the bolt.

I would challenge you to do what you are showing with a small frame after picking up a round out the mag. I can with a shit ton of force get the round to snap under the extractor and compress the ejector causing the bolt to go into battery. It is anything but quiet. Might as well send the bolt home.

Press checking an already chambered round and loading out of a magazine trying to get the bolt into battery are two different things.

Here’s a large frame…single ejector..

 

[wade2big]

Here’s a large frame…single ejector..

Thats a press check. Read my post again. That isn’t at all what anyone has been talking about. The round is already under the extractor and the ejector compressed during a press check. It will not be when loading out of a magazine.

I bet on a single ejector large frame you can get it done although with a lot of force and noise. A double ejector, not a chance.

 

[srt-4_uk]

For immediate action, skip the tap and go to the rack…

Tap is for the magazine, not the forward assist.

 

[Matches Malone]

Thats a press check. Read my post again. That isn’t at all what anyone has been talking about. The round is already under the extractor and the ejector compressed during a press check. It will not be when loading out of a magazine.

I was talking about about press checks but, sure. Your point is valid.

In general, sending the bolt home IS the proper way of doing it. Even on the small reciever, once the round is slipped forward and trying to slip over the ejectors can jamb the the whole thing up where the FA assist doesn’t even work. Then you end up having to do what you said, pull it back some a send it home a little.

I only responded because we were talking about “quietly” doing it.

 

[wade2big]

I was talking about about press checks but, sure. Your point is valid.

In general, sending the bolt home IS the proper way of doing it. Even on the small reciever, once the round is slipped forward and trying to slip over the ejectors can jamb the the whole thing up where the FA assist doesn’t even work. Then you end up having to do what you said, pull it back some a send it home a little.

I only responded because we were talking about “quietly” doing it.

When guys are being quiet, it’s not to press check but to load a round. The thumb pressure technique guys talk about isn’t quiet either. You have to press like hell and when it goes, it pops in battery. The only quiet way is to ride the charging handle to pick a round out of the magazine or single feed one, then press the forward assist while holding the charging handle latch open with a bit of back pressure to keep the bolt from popping into battery.

 

[Matches Malone]

Tap is for the magazine, not the forward assist.

It was a joke. I’m familiar with tap rack bang. I’ve done immediate actions drills like most.

I’ve morter stomped stuck rounds, finger fucked changers during remedial actions too.

 

[Matches Malone]

When guys are being quiet, it’s not to press check but to load a round. The thumb pressure technique guys talk about isn’t quiet either. You have to press like hell and when it goes, it pops in battery. The only quiet way is to ride the charging handle to pick a round out of the magazine or single feed one, then press the forward assist while holding the charging handle latch open with a bit of back pressure to keep the bolt from popping into battery.

I know the difference between press check and load. My bad.
Even if you do it that way..it won’t feed into battery every time if the bolt gets too hung up from riding it down even with the forward assist. Especially on a tight chamber. There is no way to reliability chamber the round by not bumping it into battery.

 

[wade2big]

I know the difference between press check and load. My bad.
Even if you do it that way..it won’t feed into battery every time if the bolt gets too hung up from riding it down even with the forward assist. Especially on a tight chamber. There is no way to reliability not bump it into battery.

That I wasn’t aware of.

I don’t worry about the quiet stuff anyhow. I chamber a round and leave it hot just as I would a carry pistol. What’s the difference?

 

[Matches Malone]

That I wasn’t aware of.

I don’t worry about the quiet stuff anyhow. I chamber a round and leave it hot just as I would a carry pistol. What’s the difference?

I mean I’m curious how it is on your rifle.

If you ride the bolt, and pick up a round of the magazine….then hit the forward assist, does the extractor go over the rim and set into battery? Or does it get hung up even with the FA? Most of mine get hung up even with FA 90% of the time. (Trying to be quite of course)

Or do you 100% have to bump the round to get the extractor to slip over the rim?

 

[tt123]

Colt Canada's C20 has a forward assist, so some 7.62 AR10 type rifles do have them. https://www.coltcanada.com/c20/

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I have built an AR on a "Sporter" Upper which did not accommodate either a forward assist or an ejection port cover. To date, it has not caused any serious problems, but that's definitely not a promise of things to come. I figure that a round which will not chamber normally does not belong in the upper, and I will rack and lock back, then manually extract the round. Maybe twice or three times this has happened.

I will not repeat that build.

Greg

 

[Huskydriver]

I was clearing rooms once in iraqistandia. Dynamic door room entry using special force ranger techniques. Before I entered the last room, we had to go quiet and I had to use the FA to keep super quiet.

Our buddy at the house over was using an AR with no FA. His mission failed and he got kicked out of the army and charged against 670-1. Those who aren’t in the know will never understand how quiet the FA is, more silent then a hybrid at 5mph.

Troll level 1/10....

 

[Huskydriver]

Had to match OP’s 15 year old post from arfcom.

 

[Makinchips208]

Necro alert!

Just the other day a friend is just getting his first ar-15. Woohoo! he asked about the forward assist. I said “get one with it, but it doesn’t really matter for you and I.”

Another guy speaks up and says “anyone that doesn’t have a forward assist is a complete idiot. I use mine all the time”

I laughed and said “well maybe you should buy better stuff then the bargain bin, blemished, PSA parts. And stop using Russian ammo.”

 

[MO Fugga]

I like my Spike's No-Provision upper, but the other 3 ARs all have a FA. Diversity, baby.

 

[Huskydriver]

Necro alert!

Just the other day a friend is just getting his first ar-15. Woohoo! he asked about the forward assist. I said “get one with it, but it doesn’t really matter for you and I.”

Another guy speaks up and says “anyone that doesn’t have a forward assist is a complete idiot. I use mine all the time”

I laughed and said “well maybe you should buy better stuff then the bargain bin, blemished, PSA parts. And stop using Russian ammo.”

I forgot I started this thread... Had to use it last week! Prolly 500ish supressed rounds she was struggling in the snow and cold

 

[LRRPF52]

How 'bout this apparent Son Tay CAR-15/XM177-ish? Funnily, my own XM177-inspired rifle is almost identical except for the longer barrel and the fixed pre-A1 stock instead of the slider, and the lack of a vintage red-dot. I'd like one, though.
View attachment 8029682

That’s a Colt 607 Commando, predecessor to the XM177, XM177E2, GAU-5/A, and GAU-5A/A.

Most of the 607s you see nowadays are Retro builds and not the real deal. Here’s an old photo from a Small Arms Review article on Colt M16 models:

Son Tay Raiders used GAU-5A/As and M16A1s. There has never been a Son Tay Raid photo showing anyone with 607s that I’m aware of. Colt used both 602 and 603 uppers on the 607 Commando:

If you have a correct action spring weight and lube, you should not need to ever touch the Forward Assist.

Here’s a video Small Arms Solutions put out recently on the topic, covering the “quiet load” argument.