Winchester primers vs. CCI-200 primers as indicator of pressure in 308/7.62

[My Toy]

I've been trying to arrive at a good SHTF load that won't break the bank, are easy to load and supply reasonable accuracy and are within safe pressure limits. I have a boat load of Hornady 150 gr FMC bullet heads and LC-13 once fired brass. I've settled on BL-C(2) and Winchester LR primers. (I know this component combo isn't going to make match grade ammo but that is not really what I'm interested in). I've been chronographing charge weights between 44.0 and 47.0 grs in an Armalite AR-10 /w 20" chrome lined barrel. I did my velocity testing on an 85 degree day leaving the ammo in the sun on my truck's dashboard ( which was around 100 degrees) to get a idea of how the loads perform at higher temperature.
What really impressed me was how flattened the Winchester primers were (they are the gold color ones). I'm thinking that based on the appearance of the WLR primers I'm about at or past a safe pressure. As for other indicators: there were no ejector imprints in the case heads and all of these fired cases would easily drop in and out of a Wilson cartridge headspace gauge. Also I tried these loads at the same time in a Rem 700 PSS that exhibited no difficulty with bolt lift or extraction until I reached 47.0 grs and bolt lift was a little sticky.
I also loaded up some of the 45.5 gr and 46.0 gr loads with CCI-200 primers. These primers didn't exhibit the flattening that the WLR primers did; in fact the CCI-200 primers still retained a radius around there perimeter. See the attached photos of the primers in the 45.5 gr and 46.0 gr loads.
The velocities with 45.5 gr loads for both the WLR and CCI-200 primers were 2729 fps; the velocity for the 46.0 gr load with the WLR primer was 2739 fps and the 46.0 gr load with the CCI-200 clocked at 2743 fps. All these velocities were an average for 10 rounds with the chronograph 15' from the muzzle.
Based on the appearance of the 46.0 gr load with the CCI-200 primer plus the other indicators do you more experienced gas gun shooters think pressure wise this is a safe load?

 

[Steel head]

I think the CCI#200(my primer of choice) give you a much better picture of what's going on than the Win's.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I have no way of verifying this, but I have been told that win primer cups are a little on the soft side compared to the CCI's.

 

[Belisarius]

win lr primers are a no no

 

[sib1948]

46 gr. load looks a little hot to me. All my 308s shoot well with IMR 4064 at 42.8 grs regardless ot the projectile unless I jump to the 185 gr. Berger VLDs or higher. Then 43.9 gr. works well out past 1000 yards.

 

[My Toy]

win lr primers are a no no

What is the reason? Are they in fact to soft?

 

[My Toy]

46 gr. load looks a little hot to me. All my 308s shoot well with IMR 4064 at 42.8 grs regardless ot the projectile unless I jump to the 185 gr. Berger VLDs or higher. Then 43.9 gr. works well out past 1000 yards.

Is comment on 46 gr load looking a little hot based on velocity, primer appearance or personal experience? Just curious- trying to learn all I can from experienced gas gunners as I am fairly new to reloading for 308 gas gun.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Winchester primers are junk to me. I don't care if everyone in the world has good experiences with them. To me, they are junk.

 

[msmith64]

Winchester primers are junk to me. I don't care if everyone in the world has good experiences with them. To me, they are junk.

I'm like the OP trying to learn as much as I can about precision reloading, comments like this seem incomplete just saying something is junk without at least giving the reasoning even if it is subjective is not very helpful to someone like me that is trying to ramp up his knowledge. Can you give us a little more in terms of why you think they are junk?

 

[Splat]

It looks like both primers are showing signs of pressure although the Win primers are definitely easier to see. It appears to me that the CCI primers are cratered.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

I'm like the OP trying to learn as much as I can about precision reloading, comments like this seem incomplete just saying something is junk without at least giving the reasoning even if it is subjective is not very helpful to someone like me that is trying to ramp up his knowledge. Can you give us a little more in terms of why you think they are junk?

The are soft, undersized (they are often loose in the primer pocket) and they are inconsistent, in my experience. If I had a choice of any primer at a store, Winchesters are the last I would choose.

Was that "helpful" enough for your standards?

 

[sib1948]

Is comment on 46 gr load looking a little hot based on velocity, primer appearance or personal experience? Just curious- trying to learn all I can from experienced gas gunners as I am fairly new to reloading for 308 gas gun.

Lighter loads give you longer barrel and brass life as well as a greater margine of error. 308 is very forgiving in reloading. Accuracy nodes fall about every 2 grs for most calibers. Good luck.

 

[msmith64]

The are soft, undersized (they are often loose in the primer pocket) and they are inconsistent, in my experience. If I had a choice of any primer at a store, Winchesters are the last I would choose.

Was that "helpful" enough for your standards?

Very helpful, it also gives me things to think about and be aware of for potential issues to look for with any brand of primer

 

[Road_Clam]

I have settled on a great .308 "compramise" recipie node that is proving to be a consistiant very accurate load. Im loading 168 smk's / 41.7 gr of w748 powder. I use LC brass. The are averaging 2560 fps which is a respectively mild load. Im shooting for extended barrel life not blistering high fps #'s.

 

[Belisarius]

What is the reason? Are they in fact to soft?

yes.
I switched to cci long time ago.

 

[mike.h.]

There was a period not too long ago, where they were only ones I could find. (At the local Big 5, no less). And I have experienced a few FTF with these primers. I've reloaded with both CCI and Federal with less problems.

 

[Rprecision]

I have loaded alot of WLR primers over the years. They tend to run hotter then other brands. Some loads they work well with others they don't. They tend to have more sd and es in some combinations.

They are not as bad as some may have you believe

 

[MJY65]

For SHTF loads, I keep things at the low end of the power curve. While you may have a perfectly fine load worked up in a particular rifle, you can't be sure that will be what you have in hand. I load a charge pretty close to a starting load, FL resized, seated to SAMMI OAL. That way, I can be reasonably confident that I can fire that ammo in any rifle I may have under any weather conditions. Yes, velocity suffers, but in SHTF, a few hundred FPS is a fair compromise for reliability.

 

[catgunguy]

I've been trying to arrive at a good SHTF load that won't break the bank, are easy to load and supply reasonable accuracy and are within safe pressure limits. I have a boat load of Hornady 150 gr FMC bullet heads and LC-13 once fired brass. I've settled on BL-C(2) and Winchester LR primers. (I know this component combo isn't going to make match grade ammo but that is not really what I'm interested in). I've been chronographing charge weights between 44.0 and 47.0 grs in an Armalite AR-10 /w 20" chrome lined barrel. I did my velocity testing on an 85 degree day leaving the ammo in the sun on my truck's dashboard ( which was around 100 degrees) to get a idea of how the loads perform at higher temperature.
What really impressed me was how flattened the Winchester primers were (they are the gold color ones). I'm thinking that based on the appearance of the WLR primers I'm about at or past a safe pressure. As for other indicators: there were no ejector imprints in the case heads and all of these fired cases would easily drop in and out of a Wilson cartridge headspace gauge. Also I tried these loads at the same time in a Rem 700 PSS that exhibited no difficulty with bolt lift or extraction until I reached 47.0 grs and bolt lift was a little sticky.
I also loaded up some of the 45.5 gr and 46.0 gr loads with CCI-200 primers. These primers didn't exhibit the flattening that the WLR primers did; in fact the CCI-200 primers still retained a radius around there perimeter. See the attached photos of the primers in the 45.5 gr and 46.0 gr loads.
The velocities with 45.5 gr loads for both the WLR and CCI-200 primers were 2729 fps; the velocity for the 46.0 gr load with the WLR primer was 2739 fps and the 46.0 gr load with the CCI-200 clocked at 2743 fps. All these velocities were an average for 10 rounds with the chronograph 15' from the muzzle.
Based on the appearance of the 46.0 gr load with the CCI-200 primer plus the other indicators do you more experienced gas gun shooters think pressure wise this is a safe load?View attachment 49761View attachment 49762

What is the grain weight between the cases with the Win. primers and the CCI.?

 

[Ledzep]

I have had problems personally, and have read several other accounts of Winchester primers being too soft for floating-firing pin semi-autos. The cups are either thinner or softer, but the result is the same, slamfires.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I personally have pretty much always used CCI 34's in all of my .308 gas gun loads. They seem to be a touch hotter, but I've never had a ftf, and the cups are a little harder( good if you are concerned about a slam-fire).

 

[My Toy]

For SHTF loads, I keep things at the low end of the power curve. While you may have a perfectly fine load worked up in a particular rifle, you can't be sure that will be what you have in hand. I load a charge pretty close to a starting load, FL resized, seated to SAMMI OAL. That way, I can be reasonably confident that I can fire that ammo in any rifle I may have under any weather conditions. Yes, velocity suffers, but in SHTF, a few hundred FPS is a fair compromise for reliability.

I really hadn't considered this; excellent thought.

 

[My Toy]

What is the grain weight between the cases with the Win. primers and the CCI.?

I didn't weigh the cases but I certainly will. I'm guessing where you are going with this is different case capacities causing differences in pressure.
On the face of it I used all LC-13 once fired brass assuming that they would be pretty close in weight but I may be wrong.

 

[My Toy]

I'd be interested to know if any other board members are using BL-C(2) with 150 gr or 168 gr bullets in their gas or bolt guns and what loads you have had success with.

 

[gewehr]

Accurateshooter.com says ccis have harder cups


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[1SMALLJOHNSON]

My Toy,

The testing of loads, and using the primer as an indication of pressure, is but one method to decide on "your level of comfort" with the pressure.

From a gas gun, the effects of pressure upon the primer are further mired by the reciprocating mechanism, port pressure, and the unknown leade/throat of the many .308 chamber offerings possible.

Sounds a bit heady, yes. But ultimately, the "read" on the primer itself is not sufficient to decide on safe pressures. The darn things vary too much in anneal and materials, between manufacturers, not to mention variability in flash hole diameter, potential variation in port pressure, etcetera.

There are some other potential methods to measure pressure. I'll just provide one:

Using a micrometer, measure the diameter of the case you're about to fire. Measure it at the base, just forward of the extractor groove. After firing, some folks say that it should not expand more than 0.0005" AT THE BASE, IN FRONT OF THE EXTRACTOR GROOVE. That number is one half of a thousanths of an inch. Other people say that a level less than 0.003" is sufficient indication of a high level of pressure. Point being, that you can measure factory ammo before and after firing, and decide YOUR level of acceptance.

This whole reloading process is a joy to learn, and if you're so inclined, it'll take you a lifetime to understand. Good luck, and please let us all know if we can help.

 

[My Toy]

My Toy,

The testing of loads, and using the primer as an indication of pressure, is but one method to decide on "your level of comfort" with the pressure.

From a gas gun, the effects of pressure upon the primer are further mired by the reciprocating mechanism, port pressure, and the unknown leade/throat of the many .308 chamber offerings possible.

Sounds a bit heady, yes. But ultimately, the "read" on the primer itself is not sufficient to decide on safe pressures. The darn things vary too much in anneal and materials, between manufacturers, not to mention variability in flash hole diameter, potential variation in port pressure, etcetera.

There are some other potential methods to measure pressure. I'll just provide one:

Using a micrometer, measure the diameter of the case you're about to fire. Measure it at the base, just forward of the extractor groove. After firing, some folks say that it should not expand more than 0.0005" AT THE BASE, IN FRONT OF THE EXTRACTOR GROOVE. That number is one half of a thousanths of an inch. Other people say that a level less than 0.003" is sufficient indication of a high level of pressure. Point being, that you can measure factory ammo before and after firing, and decide YOUR level of acceptance.

This whole reloading process is a joy to learn, and if you're so inclined, it'll take you a lifetime to understand. Good luck, and please let us all know if we can help.

You are right. It seems like when you think you have found an absolute truth something comes along to dispel it.
I really appreciate all the advice I've received on this forum.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

I didn't weigh the cases but I certainly will. I'm guessing where you are going with this is different case capacities causing differences in pressure.
On the face of it I used all LC-13 once fired brass assuming that they would be pretty close in weight but I may be wrong.

Capacity is what counts, same weight cases can have different capacity's.

I am a firm believer in 34's for gas guns, and with all of the problems I have read about with late production Win. primers, I just don't use them in my M1a.

 

[shoot4fun]

I have a few thousand WW primers from more than a couple of years ago. The reason I still have them is that I don't use them. Haven't has a bad experience yet, just rather use Federal or CCI.
But let it be said that "reading" primers for pressure signs is not a good thing. Kinda like having a Frenchman translating Chinese into English. Something always gets lost.
God, I hope no one gets offended by that statement.

 

[Steelshooter842]

I just shot some 260 rounds with Peterson brass and srp. The rounds loaded with Winchester primers hit in the same hole. The CCI primers appeared nearly pierced and result in larger groups. I cannot understand all the negative comments about Winchester primers unless they have change their primers. I'm only buying Winchester unless I can't find them.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I just shot some 260 rounds with Peterson brass and srp. The rounds loaded with Winchester primers hit in the same hole. The CCI primers appeared nearly pierced and result in larger groups. I cannot understand all the negative comments about Winchester primers unless they have change their primers. I'm only buying Winchester unless I can't find them.

This original post was about Winchester LRP, you are commenting on their SRP. This necro post is six years old. There is documented evidence that certain lots of Winchester LRP were burning through the edges of the primer cup. I've stayed away from Win. LRP for several years due to that issue.