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Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Svartur_Skuggi

Svartur_Skuggi

Private
Minuteman
Oct 22, 2010
22
0
51
Jefferson ; Texas
#1
Good Morning All
smile.gif


I'm new to Sniper's Hide and would first and foremost like to say Hi to everyone. I've been lurking this site for some time.... reading and researching alot that i've read; but now I figured it's time to join up and ask my questions from those that are more experienced than myself.

I have been looking at bolt action rifles for about the last 6 months. I've spoken to Tactical Rifles /McMillan / Remington/ and Savage Arms about custom and factory rifles.
Now first off I dont mind spending a couple of grand (2000-5000) on a good rifle. However, I want to make sure that if I'm going to spend that much, that I'm getting what I am paying for.
Afew of the custom companies had quotes up to $8000.00, and IF their rifles do what they say they can do (as long as I do my part) I wouldnt mind spending even that much. But I'm a sinic, and trust very few sales people or companies trying to sale THEIR product.

So, I am coming here to ask everyone what rifle or rifle set up (and from which company....if custom) I should use.
I am wanting to buy a tactical bolt action rifle. I'd like it to have the ability to shoot .5 MOA or less at 600 yards. I will be running with a Night Force scope with an in-line system for night vision. I'd prefer the caliber to be a .308.

I have looked at Savage Arms 10BAS/K, Sako TRG 22's/ Remington's SPS Rifles/ and a crap load of custom makers.
If you suggest Savages or Sako's rifles......do they also need to be trued or are they good from the get go, or are they a waste of my time and need to go custom?

I want to thank everyone that post before hand for taking your time and helping out a new forum member.......

***SvarturSkuggi
 
#2
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

If you can get a hold of a Remington 700 5r SS mil-spec rifle, you will have a good start, for a considerable less amount of money. It will shoot .5moa factory. GAP is a good custom Company to look into for a custom, I don't have one, but I have shot one. Heck I get .75moa regularly with my and savage from the factory. My howa 1500 hunting rifle gets .5 regularly, but I lucked up because they are not accuracy guaranteed. Now .5 MOA at 100 yards is not hard if you do your part, but .5 MOA at 600 yard takes a alot skill and practice with your rifle. I'm mostly a hunter and have no need for that amount of accuracy at 600 I never shoot game past 300. I only occasionally shoot targets up to 1000, and my savage works.There are good people on this site with lots of recommendations, as they gave me plenty of good ones before I purchased a savage.
 
#3
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

1. Sako's need no work out of the box. But as far as I know they do not have a EFR or IMUNS for front mounted NV.

2. The SPS is in no way shape or form something you should compare to the SAKO. It makes a fine donor action, but in the world of consistent .5 MOA @ 600m rifles, the SPS is not what you want.

3. The general lack of support for aftermarket parts for Savage weapons turns me off to them. Plus I don't know much about them, but it seems they change their screw spacing about every 15 Minutes.

Sooo... Out of your selections, here are my thoughts.

1. Sako is a no go without implementing some sort of EFR to mount your NV.

2. Badger makes an EFR for the Accuracy Intl. So you can score a MKII, buy the Badger and be set.

3. On the same mode of thinking and for a bit more coin you could end up with a AW.

4. You could have a custom made. The biggest gripe I have with them is that they take a while to get. And here's food for thought. You want some sort of EFR for your NV. So you need to have one installed. Now, anyone can glue one on your stock to look cool, but it takes a knowledgeable professional to bed one properly. And you want it done properly because you are strapping a several thousand dollar optic on it and you don't need it falling off the first time you step in a hole in a field sneaking up on some hogs or whatever. An improperly installed EFR will cost you your NV. All the big name custom guys here can do a great job of installing it properly.

Hope that helps. Try KMW, GAP, APA, RWS, AINA, LA Precision, or whoever. You will end up with a fine rifle.
 
#4
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

GAP, Underground Skunkworks, and Beanland have been the best shit that I have seen lately. Check out the detail in some of the Skunk rifles in the threads he has in the bolt-action section here on the Hide. Incredible attention to detail and his custom actions are awesome, he'll be my choice for my first full custom. Most of his builds include the badger rail for mounting night vision too.
 
#7
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Sako's need no work out of the box. But as far as I know they do not have a EFR or IMUNS for front mounted NV.

2. The SPS is in no way shape or form something you should compare to the SAKO. It makes a fine donor action, but in the world of consistent .5 MOA @ 600m rifles, the SPS is not what you want.

3. The general lack of support for aftermarket parts for Savage weapons turns me off to them. Plus I don't know much about them, but it seems they change their screw spacing about every 15 Minutes.

Sooo... Out of your selections, here are my thoughts.

1. Sako is a no go without implementing some sort of EFR to mount your NV.

2. Badger makes an EFR for the Accuracy Intl. So you can score a MKII, buy the Badger and be set.

3. On the same mode of thinking and for a bit more coin you could end up with a AW.

4. You could have a custom made. The biggest gripe I have with them is that they take a while to get. And here's food for thought. You want some sort of EFR for your NV. So you need to have one installed. Now, anyone can glue one on your stock to look cool, but it takes a knowledgeable professional to bed one properly. And you want it done properly because you are strapping a several thousand dollar optic on it and you don't need it falling off the first time you step in a hole in a field sneaking up on some hogs or whatever. An improperly installed EFR will cost you your NV. All the big name custom guys here can do a great job of installing it properly.

Hope that helps. Try KMW, GAP, APA, RWS, AINA, LA Precision, or whoever. You will end up with a fine rifle. </div></div>

?????????

This is my Sako TRg-22 with a Sako factory ITRS rail. I bought all of this from Euro Optics!
I have a 2" sunshade on Leupold.
4882868139_ab65694e14_b.jpg
 
#10
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Sako's need no work out of the box. <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 17pt">But as far as I know they do not have a EFR or IMUNS for front mounted NV.</span></span>

2. The SPS is in no way shape or form something you should compare to the SAKO. It makes a fine donor action, but in the world of consistent .5 MOA @ 600m rifles, the SPS is not what you want.

3. The general lack of support for aftermarket parts for Savage weapons turns me off to them. Plus I don't know much about them, but it seems they change their screw spacing about every 15 Minutes.

Sooo... Out of your selections, here are my thoughts.

1. Sako is a no go without implementing some sort of EFR to mount your NV.

2. Badger makes an EFR for the Accuracy Intl. So you can score a MKII, buy the Badger and be set.

3. On the same mode of thinking and for a bit more coin you could end up with a AW.

4. You could have a custom made. The biggest gripe I have with them is that they take a while to get. And here's food for thought. You want some sort of EFR for your NV. So you need to have one installed. Now, anyone can glue one on your stock to look cool, but it takes a knowledgeable professional to bed one properly. And you want it done properly because you are strapping a several thousand dollar optic on it and you don't need it falling off the first time you step in a hole in a field sneaking up on some hogs or whatever. An improperly installed EFR will cost you your NV. All the big name custom guys here can do a great job of installing it properly.

Hope that helps. Try KMW, GAP, APA, RWS, AINA, LA Precision, or whoever. You will end up with a fine rifle. </div></div>

?????????

This is my Sako TRg-22 with a Sako factory ITRS rail. I bought all of this from Euro Optics!
I have a 2" sunshade on Leupold.
4882868139_ab65694e14_b.jpg
</div></div>

That is the first one I've ever seen. But as you see above, I stated that, <span style="font-style: italic">AS FAR AS I KNOW</span>, they did not have a NV optic/EFR system.

So I stand corrected. How much did that cost you? And how on earth do you use a NV device with the scope that low?
 
#11
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

I own many custom rifles and suggest you gather all the pieces for your rifle, box them up, and send them to a good gunsmith. Depending on what configuration Your looking for you could probably have all the pieces within a week and only wait a month or two for a finished product that will perform better than any out of the box rifle.

I use Bob Green in PA for all my smithing.

If you need advise on components or where to find them send me a PM
 
#12
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

If you want a custom made rifle to your specs, GA Precision. If you want pretty much the best all-around factory rifle, Accuracy International... And by the best "all-around" I'm not just talking accuracy.
 
#13
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

In a word SAKO. But try one out before you buy one they are not for everyone , it may not be right for you. They are very adjustable and you should be able to adjust it to fit properly. As far as the accuracy and quality of the TRGs they are as good as it gets.
 
#14
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

If you have the money you have 2 options. And you can research this, you don't have to believe me.

1. Accuracy International AW. No question the best money can buy. It will cost you though.

2. Contact GA Precision and talk to them. They are the best at building custom rifles and can build you something built for YOU.

I have an AW and like I said it's the best money can buy. It's built like a tank and will not give you reliability issues.

A buddy of mine has a GAP built gun and it is a great gun. If I didn't have an AI i would have one of theirs.

The last piece of advice I can give you, buy good and you'll only buy once. Stick to the well proven names and DO YOUR HOMEWORK and listen to people that do it or have time behind the gun. Really filter the info you get on the internet. There's a lot of clueless people on it.

Good luck with your search.
 
#15
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

"I have been looking at bolt action rifles for about the last 6 months."

If this means that you haven't shot a rifle much or you are just starting to become a marksman forget about how much money you could spend. Don't worry over or get endless advice about systems or components. Just go out and purchase a decent Savage or Remington put a quality scope on it and start shooting.

The ability to shoot .5moa at 600 yards is going to be more of your skill than a decent "spec'd out" rifle.
 
#16
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Sako's need no work out of the box. <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 17pt">But as far as I know they do not have a EFR or IMUNS for front mounted NV.</span></span>

2. The SPS is in no way shape or form something you should compare to the SAKO. It makes a fine donor action, but in the world of consistent .5 MOA @ 600m rifles, the SPS is not what you want.

3. The general lack of support for aftermarket parts for Savage weapons turns me off to them. Plus I don't know much about them, but it seems they change their screw spacing about every 15 Minutes.

Sooo... Out of your selections, here are my thoughts.

1. Sako is a no go without implementing some sort of EFR to mount your NV.

2. Badger makes an EFR for the Accuracy Intl. So you can score a MKII, buy the Badger and be set.

3. On the same mode of thinking and for a bit more coin you could end up with a AW.

4. You could have a custom made. The biggest gripe I have with them is that they take a while to get. And here's food for thought. You want some sort of EFR for your NV. So you need to have one installed. Now, anyone can glue one on your stock to look cool, but it takes a knowledgeable professional to bed one properly. And you want it done properly because you are strapping a several thousand dollar optic on it and you don't need it falling off the first time you step in a hole in a field sneaking up on some hogs or whatever. An improperly installed EFR will cost you your NV. All the big name custom guys here can do a great job of installing it properly.

Hope that helps. Try KMW, GAP, APA, RWS, AINA, LA Precision, or whoever. You will end up with a fine rifle. </div></div>

?????????

This is my Sako TRg-22 with a Sako factory ITRS rail. I bought all of this from Euro Optics!
I have a 2" sunshade on Leupold.
4882868139_ab65694e14_b.jpg
</div></div>

That is the first one I've ever seen. But as you see above, I stated that, <span style="font-style: italic">AS FAR AS I KNOW</span>, they did not have a NV optic/EFR system.

So I stand corrected. How much did that cost you? And how on earth do you use a NV device with the scope that low? </div></div>I'll have to look at the reciept but I believe it was about $450. It actualy does work, the leupold runs up close.
 
#17
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Bro
Firstly do not rush to purchase
watch classifieds alot of high end rifles at very good prices, save urself some coin buy used
308??
ur dime but it wud be my last choice but if you find your perfect rifle in any 6, 6,5 or whatever buy it
learn to reload
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1900674&nt=3&page=1

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2119024&gonew=1#UNREAD

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2116492&gonew=1#UNREAD

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2113669&gonew=1#UNREAD

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2116370&gonew=1#UNREAD
 
#18
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

The Sako has a great reputation, and the Remington 700 5r is an inexpensive way to start and has tons of great options for later. But, if I knew I had $3-4k to spend on a gun, I'd just buy an Accuracy International AE and be done with it, knowing I have the best there is.

John
 
#19
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

+1 on GA.I have crusader it shoots way better than i do But on the good days it shoots one hole.They have a 3/8 with match ammo policy on the crusader.Check them out.
 
#20
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Anything with a Broughton, Bartlein, Schneider etc will shoot .5 moa at 600 if you know what you are doing. Do you hand load? What is your experience with long range shooting? Palma, F-TR F-Open or Tactical shooting?. We shot factory FN rifles and were making hits at 1150 yards with follow up shots using factory Corbon ammo. I could do that with a 5R remington and a 10X scope and many others can do that here also. GA, Pierce Engineering, APA, AI and a few others can do that with their rifles also.

Rich
 
#21
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SvarturSkuggi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Now first off I dont mind spending a couple of grand (2000-5000) on a good rifle. However, I want to make sure that if I'm going to spend that much, that I'm getting what I am paying for.
</div></div>

In the budget range you mentioned, I'd very seriously consider getting an Accuracy International AE MK II or the AW rifle. They will shoot with the best of the customs and they are built incredibly tough and will last a long time. You can change your own barrels and they will stand up to a lot of use and abuse.

To give you an idea on pricing, A new AE mark II would probably run you close to $3900 and a used one closer to the $3000 mark (Assuming you want all the good options like a folding stock, muzzle break etc). The AW model is a bit out of your budget range as the used ones start in the mid 5k mark.

Match one of the AE MK II models with some nice S&B glass like the 5-25x56 and you have a rig that will let you easily push out to 1000 yards. I'd recommend the 5-25x56 in the S&B because it costs close to the same as the lower magnification ones but has a big range in the magnification and a lot of internal travel.

You had mentioned that you were going to be using a nightforce scope but if your budget permits it, you wouldn't regret getting one of the S&Bs.

With a bit of watching the for sale section, you could probably wind up with both an AE MK II and a S&B 5-25x56 for around 6k total or a bit less.

Your profile lists Texas, so I'm not sure exactly where you are, but if you are not to far away from the DFW area, you can see them over at TacPro (they sell them there and usually have a display model or two). If you are in the area, I'll be out at Tacpro for the match next weekend and I'd be happy to let you shoot one of mine.
 
#22
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

I agree, AI AE MKII is probably the wisest choice for the money. Have yet to meet one that doesn't shoot great. They always pop up in the for sale section as well.
 
#23
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Get a Sako TRG-22. Save money over an AE MkII and lose NOTHING in quality/accuracy/durability/user workability. They also retain there value just as well.

Josh
 
#24
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

How long is the throat in the Sako TRG 22? Can you load close to the lands and still fit the round in the magazine? What is maximum OAL will the Sako Trg 22 magazine hold?
 
#25
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long is the throat in the Sako TRG 22? Can you load close to the lands and still fit the round in the magazine? What is maximum OAL will the Sako Trg 22 magazine hold?

</div></div>
I'll have to mic that out for you. After a couple of white russians I don't think I'm going to be mic'ing anything.
If I remember correctly I pulled 2.295 COAL from the chamber, but I'll have to double check that.
 
#26
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long is the throat in the Sako TRG 22? Can you load close to the lands and still fit the round in the magazine? What is maximum OAL will the Sako Trg 22 magazine hold? </div></div>

There will be some variation for the oal of a TRG throat, but if Im loading for fclass or a precision shoot I load 40 thou off the lands and feed singly, if loading for an action shoot I load to mag length, easy.
 
#27
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Magazine OAL on the TRG is 2.95". The throat on mine lets me get 175 SMKs to the lands. However, they seem to like most any loading length. The 155 scenars perform equally well...even at 2.80"

Josh
 
#28
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> However, they seem to like most any loading length. The 155 scenars perform equally well...even at 2.80"Josh</div></div>

I found exactly the same with mine, with all smk weights and 155 scenars. I loaded up a batch, 5 touching lands, 5 x 20 thou back, 5 x 40 thou back right up to 120 thou back off the lands and they all shot under 0.5 moa at 100. They arent a fussy gun will shoot damn near everything well. Havent found that with any other of my rifles even the AI.
 
#29
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Buy a 5R and some decent glass and just see if you are going to like long range shooting. If you decide you are just not into it then you haven't put a ton of money into equipment that you have to sell. If you start with a 5R you will at least be starting with something that can shoot some good groups.
 
#30
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oneshotkill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy a 5R and some decent glass and just see if you are going to like long range shooting. If you decide you are just not into it then you haven't put a ton of money into equipment that you have to sell. If you start with a 5R you will at least be starting with something that can shoot some good groups. </div></div>

I think that's the real advantage of a Remington 700 - you can start affordably, and add to it as your skills and interest grow.
 
#32
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Sorry I havent been on sooner for a reply to everyones input. The net where I an stationed is very hard to get.

First I'd like to thank everyone for taking their time and giving advice on what rifle is best for long range (tactical) shooting.

I notice there are alot of accuracy international fans on this site. Not to offend anyone, but I just hate the stock they use. So I will not be using accuracy international as my base weapon to build up from.

I think I have narrowed it down to either Sako's TRG 22 / Steyr's SSG Elite 08 / or GAP's FBI HRT Rifle. I think either of these will fullfill their role; however if I am incorrect PLEASE let me know.
Sako's site states that the TRG 22 is a rifle made to shoot out to 300, I know a good marks men will beble to stretch that out to 600 and even 1000+ if trained to do so. The SSG I read was made for military use and is used up to 600. Again that range can be stretched. I really cant find much on GAP's rifle.....so any input would greatly help.

I have my night vision monical now (yippee it came in....just havent gotten to see it yet), but input or advice on a scope would also be awesome
smile.gif


Well; let me know what you think about the sellections i have narrowed it down to. You guys on here are being a great help, and since this will be my "BIG" rifle purchase for a while...your advice is worth gold.

Thanks;
Shane
 
#33
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Just remember something, the finest made rifle that has the best accuracy guarantee ain't poop if the driver isn't worth his salt. You gotta know how to drive it if you want it to shoot well. You need to know what you want, before you buy what you think you need. You'd be awfully upset if you bought a rifle and found out after the fact that the stock didn't fit you right, or the twist rate of the barrel didn't suit your desires, or that it's heavier/lighter than you want, so many things. Better to start simple until you find what you like, or want based off experience, rather than buying what others like and that you think it cool.

I see folks now and then shooting high end rifles that can't hit the broad side of a barn and they get pissed at the rifle. A Geo can beat a Ferrari on the track if the Ferrari driver sucks.

Branden
 
#34
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

I would recommend starting out with a basic solid factory rifle from the brand name that you prefer. Looking a a Rem 5R or an FN SPR, have it bedded and the trigger tuned, and get your optics.

That is enough money to spend on a rifle for right now...you can spend 4x what either of these will cost and not accomplish much. Spend the rest on a case of ammo and shoot. By the time you are capable of shooting .5 MOA at 600 yards, either of those 2 rifles will be right there with you.

TC
 
#35
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

I'd start with a Savage 10PC with the 5R barrel. Its threaded for a suppressor. Get a Sav-2 trigger from rifle basix if you don't like the accu trigger, Savages really do not need truing like a remington for the most part. There are plenty of aftermarket parts and contrary to what some say they have only changed their bolt spacing once. Spend the rest on optics and ammo then practice, practice practice. A basic Savage will shoot sub-moa all day long straight out of the box. Then when you get to where yoou are shooting 1/2 moa at 600 consistently spend the $2-5K for a custom.
 
#36
Re: Woud like input from experienced 308 shooters

Shane,

All previous advice is outstanding. Start with a good basic shooter with good glass and start shooting!

I will reiterate the "try before you buy", if at all possible, before sinking $$$$ into a custom. You will have to decide action and barrel manufacturer - the builder can steer you there, but the stock makes it "fit" you.

Regarding the stock, you have already stated you don't like AI (which eliminated the AI platform). McMillan and Manners are probably the most popular choices for stocks, but they each make several models that "feel" different. Check these out before you leap.

Good luck on your quest.

Kevin
 
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