WTF did you do?

Diver160651

Who cares
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 7, 2013
    3,501
    4,119
    La Honda
    I struggled a bit about posting this, but I think no matter how you feel about my actions there is a lesson here somewhere.

    A guy some of us have shoot matches with was just arrested for murder the last weekend.

    Screen Shot 2020-03-10 at 9.05.49 AM.png


    Anyway, I've shot with this guy lots of times, and he was always nice, a bit shy, and maybe even awkward. Nothing would have raised my suspicions that he might have a really dark side.

    Fast forward a year or so after meeting him, he had two separate incidents about a year apart, while camping and drunk where he threatened to shoot a fellow camper. The first was tossed off a bit as one-off drunk-talk, but the final episode involved LEO, and a search as he wandered off into the freezing night with no jacket. I know some felt bad for having to involve the Police, and some felt worse when he was banned from his memberships at our local club. Some of us probably thought, WTF did we do? Did we overreact?

    So now I have to ask him, WTF did you do?


    WTF would you guys have done?
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: seansmd

    atomic41

    Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Apr 4, 2013
    1,738
    2,880
    Interesting detail in the reporting. They referred to his tactical style rifles. They did not call them assault weapons...first I've heard that and I wonder why that wording was used? Normally assault rifle is the go-to.
     

    flyer

    Unicorn hunter
    Minuteman
    Apr 25, 2018
    2,264
    1,337
    That guy better start wearing a dress or else he's going to be treated like a normal person and get a long prison term.
     

    hic28

    The Legman
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 2, 2017
    1,498
    4,543
    Crazy who shows up. We had a guy who shot every club match for 2 years then got arrested for robbing 8 banks in San Diego.

    made for some good memes

    37D15912-21B2-4795-BFF6-E663654951BD.jpeg

    7B95CD8A-B390-4F36-930A-8E07C75EA501.jpeg
     

    Arc Light

    Sheeple Herder
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Aug 13, 2012
    1,432
    3,976
    Montana
    You guys should have red flagged his ass ;)

    Seriously, you never know about some people. Obviously the guy has some mental issues based on what you've stated about his past.
     

    FLguy55

    flguy55
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 30, 2019
    343
    110
    "The handgun used in the homicide is not registered and has no serial number. " That explains the polymer 80 frame in the pic. Probably not the only one he had. My spread on the floor would have been much scarier! LOL
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Fig and 2ndamendfan

    Downtown

    Full Member
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 1, 2013
    1,790
    1,721
    I'm curious what type matches he competed in. It was hard to tell from the weapons seized. Didn't seem like USPSA or PRS type gear.
     

    seansmd

    In a minute man
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 8, 2018
    1,768
    1,355
    San Jose, CA
    I struggled a bit about posting this, but I think no matter how you feel about my actions there is a lesson here somewhere.

    A guy some of us have shoot matches with was just arrested for murder the last weekend.

    View attachment 7269931


    Anyway, I've shot with this guy lots of times, and he was always nice, a bit shy, and maybe even awkward. Nothing would have raised my suspicions that he might have a really dark side.

    Fast forward a year or so after meeting him, he had two separate incidents about a year apart, while camping and drunk where he threatened to shoot a fellow camper. The first was tossed off a bit as one-off drunk-talk, but the final episode involved LEO, and a search as he wandered off into the freezing night with no jacket. I know some felt bad for having to involve the Police, and some felt worse when he was banned from his memberships at our local club. Some of us probably thought, WTF did we do? Did we overreact?

    So now I have to ask him, WTF did you do?


    WTF would you guys have done?
    I saw this on the news and remembered that night and was thankful I was not camping that night and going to the local hotel. Hearing the story the next morning, and what could have happened. I was happy folks made sure nothing did happen that night, and did the right thing calling the police. I had heard he left the state, guess not.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: Diver160651

    acudaowner

    Two Star General
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Dec 26, 2018
    5,592
    4,006
    red flags are only used on citizens as a bludgeon against those that support the 2nd amendment , not against non citizens or criminals that profiling , just like only law abiding citizens will pay as much as we do for firearms jumping through any hoops that the government puts in your way to get that gun , when the exact same ghost gun is less than 300 dollars in a lot of cases and no hoops to jump through to get it no ffl needed also no state or federal tax no warrenty but you knew that going in . but one is legal and one is illegal and that is being blurred more and more . Its against the law or it was to deny a citizen of due process yet every red flag pushed out by the court does just that till you can prove your innocent since when did someone ever have to prove they were innocent without committing a crime first and even then they held the presumption of innocent till proven guilty not with red flags . And why is it always 3 am they come busting in doors if that ain't a home invasion situation what is .
     

    Diver160651

    Who cares
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Feb 7, 2013
    3,501
    4,119
    La Honda
    I'm curious what type matches he competed in. It was hard to tell from the weapons seized. Didn't seem like USPSA or PRS type gear.
    I think that's just what he had at the time. He shot PRS. Although I want to be perfectly clear that his actions have no affiliation with any of us.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: seansmd

    Snipe260

    Captain
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Feb 11, 2017
    4,802
    6,604
    You never really know a person till you see how they handle adversity! Then true character will come out!
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Tchitcherine

    hic28

    The Legman
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 2, 2017
    1,498
    4,543
    Did he have some high end gear since robbing 8 banks ?

    not at all, bone stock savage with a pst gen1, he only got like 12k total between all the banks.

    It was a big surprise cause the dude had a PhD in neuroscience and was nice enough. Bit odd but no red flags. None of the robberies were violent. The Jason dude jim posted this thread out is super wild.
     

    Faronth

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Mar 3, 2019
    190
    181
    Southern Arizona
    Sounds like this guy gave some significant signs of having problems with out people close enough to him to really did into his life to try and help. Just a presumption. But in answer to your question what would I have done? I would have avoided being around him and hope those that knew him well would try and help

    Late last year I had a somewhat similar thing happen. There is a young boy I my daughters class who was being raised by his grandparents due the his parents ending up in jail, (drugs ect..). This is in a small Christian school on my church campus. I saw and talked with both the grandparents (who were about my age) just about every day for 4 years when dropping off my daughter and sometimes at Sunday service. They attended school field trips and were involved with their grandson school like I am. I had many lengthy conversations with the both of them. After inviting him to go shooting many times (a common interest) he always found a reason to not go so I just left it at standing invitation.

    Something was not quite right with the couple, him far more than her. Never was successful in figuring anything out that raised anything more than an eyebrow but not for lack of trying to get to know them better.

    Got a call not too long before last Christmas and the grandfather had picked up the grandkid from school on Friday afternoon, drove straight home and shot and killed his wife and then himself with the boy in the house. The police left the kid in the house for hours while trying to contact the couple till they finally figured out a kid was in there.

    To say people including me were stunned is an understatement. Even at her funeral there were simply no answers to be had. The kid is still in my daughters’ class. The church waived his tuition and great grandparents were able keep him in school with the same 10 kids he has known since kindergarten

    You just never know what’s really going on in the lives of others.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Ravenworks

    Maggot

    Better to die on your feet than live on your knees
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
    15,773
    13,167
    Virginia
    Sounds like this guy gave some significant signs of having problems with out people close enough to him to really did into his life to try and help. Just a presumption. But in answer to your question what would I have done? I would have avoided being around him and hope those that knew him well would try and help

    Late last year I had a somewhat similar thing happen. There is a young boy I my daughters class who was being raised by his grandparents due the his parents ending up in jail, (drugs ect..). This is in a small Christian school on my church campus. I saw and talked with both the grandparents (who were about my age) just about every day for 4 years when dropping off my daughter and sometimes at Sunday service. They attended school field trips and were involved with their grandson school like I am. I had many lengthy conversations with the both of them. After inviting him to go shooting many times (a common interest) he always found a reason to not go so I just left it at standing invitation.

    Something was not quite right with the couple, him far more than her. Never was successful in figuring anything out that raised anything more than an eyebrow but not for lack of trying to get to know them better.

    Got a call not too long before last Christmas and the grandfather had picked up the grandkid from school on Friday afternoon, drove straight home and shot and killed his wife and then himself with the boy in the house. The police left the kid in the house for hours while trying to contact the couple till they finally figured out a kid was in there.

    To say people including me were stunned is an understatement. Even at her funeral there were simply no answers to be had. The kid is still in my daughters’ class. The church waived his tuition and great grandparents were able keep him in school with the same 10 kids he has known since kindergarten

    You just never know what’s really going on in the lives of others.
    Sad story
     

    ZiaHunter

    Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 25, 2012
    1,615
    1,644
    66
    Southern NM
    I struggled a bit about posting this, but I think no matter how you feel about my actions there is a lesson here somewhere.

    A guy some of us have shoot matches with was just arrested for murder the last weekend.

    View attachment 7269931


    Anyway, I've shot with this guy lots of times, and he was always nice, a bit shy, and maybe even awkward. Nothing would have raised my suspicions that he might have a really dark side.

    Fast forward a year or so after meeting him, he had two separate incidents about a year apart, while camping and drunk where he threatened to shoot a fellow camper. The first was tossed off a bit as one-off drunk-talk, but the final episode involved LEO, and a search as he wandered off into the freezing night with no jacket. I know some felt bad for having to involve the Police, and some felt worse when he was banned from his memberships at our local club. Some of us probably thought, WTF did we do? Did we overreact?

    So now I have to ask him, WTF did you do?


    WTF would you guys have done?

    Diver:

    You did the right thing. If you hadn't and he went mental at the club or offed a fellow competitor you never would have forgiven yourself for not taking action.
     

    Ravenworks

    Zebco Pro Staffer
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Feb 8, 2019
    3,509
    6,458
    Somewhere
    This.
    Because it is far better for innocent people to be killed than a crazy person being denied his right to kill them.
    No, I take offense to the statement about red flagging his ass.
    What a brotherhood you have.
    You're supposed to help one another and the signs were there, they were ignored.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: 2aBaCa and AMGtuned

    fdkay

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 27, 2009
    5,777
    2,511
    59
    Ingleside, Tx
    No, I take offense to the statement about red flagging his ass.
    What a brotherhood you have.
    You're supposed to help one another and the signs were there, they were ignored.
    So, what you're saying is, if you have knowledge that someone has a substance abuse issue, has displayed self destructive behavior and threatened to shoot several people, DON'T notify the authorities. Buy them a snuggle bunny or something.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: Maggot

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 16, 2017
    4,984
    6,249
    TEXAS
    So, what you're saying is, if you have knowledge that someone has a substance abuse issue, has displayed self destructive behavior and threatened to shoot several people, DON'T notify the authorities. Buy them a snuggle bunny or something.
    It would be hard for me to go to the police voluntarily for anything.
     

    Ravenworks

    Zebco Pro Staffer
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Feb 8, 2019
    3,509
    6,458
    Somewhere
    So, what you're saying is, if you have knowledge that someone has a substance abuse issue, has displayed self destructive behavior and threatened to shoot several people, DON'T notify the authorities. Buy them a snuggle bunny or something.
    You're just as much the problem if you think sitting around the club drinking with knowledge about your pal having a problem.
    Helping him is not being a snitch bitch,point being is it never should had gotten to that point.
    I bet Chris Kyle wished he'd had used a red flag laws,yup he would still be alive today.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Bender

    DarnYankeeUSMC

    McCarthy Was Right
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 18, 2012
    5,552
    13,145
    In your head
    I bet Chris Kyle wished he'd had used a red flag laws,yup he would still be alive today.
    Hmmmm. Yeah, I don't think so.
    He was working with the guy to help him with his problems. So I am going to take a wild assed guess and say that he already knew that the combat veteran was on the edge. And he was not the first person he helped/was helping.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Maggot

    Dunraven

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Feb 1, 2019
    1,152
    1,153
    One 'crazy' in the shooting population. Don't know what the figures would be, but I'm guessing the percentages in the general population are much higher. So you could say the shooting community is much more sane and responsible than the rest. Pat yourselves on the back!
     

    fdkay

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 27, 2009
    5,777
    2,511
    59
    Ingleside, Tx
    It would be hard for me to go to the police voluntarily for anything.
    I can absolutely understand the lack of support for red flag laws, if improperly written, they can and will be used inappropriately.
    However, playing devils advocate, there are several mass shootings that could have been prevented had some type of red flag law been in effect.
    I know, it is a slippery slope and a VERY dangerous thing to infringe on someone's rights.
    Mass shootings were once rare and typically reserved for some seriously fucked up pieces of shit, but now, with the ever increasing victim mentality, lack of discipline and psychotropic medication for any perceived mental instability, these asshole are killing innocents left and right.

    This is a tough nut to crack. How do you keep innocents safe and protect the rights of all involved.
    I have always thought the "patriot act" was an unconstitutional overreach of power. I get it. Placing too much power in the hands of government is ALWAYS a bad idea.
    I don't know what the answer is, but I will tell you, reporting folks that have made threats to kill someone is not snitching, it is the responsible thing to do. In most states, that will likely result in a short term, involuntary commitment to a mental health facility.
    Does it suck? Yes.
    Is it better than letting someone get killed?
    I say, Yes.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Bender and Maggot

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 16, 2017
    4,984
    6,249
    TEXAS
    I can absolutely understand the lack of support for red flag laws, if improperly written, they can and will be used inappropriately.
    However, playing devils advocate, there are several mass shootings that could have been prevented had some type of red flag law been in effect.
    I know, it is a slippery slope and a VERY dangerous thing to infringe on someone's rights.
    Mass shootings were once rare and typically reserved for some seriously fucked up pieces of shit, but now, with the ever increasing victim mentality, lack of discipline and psychotropic medication for any perceived mental instability, these asshole are killing innocents left and right.

    This is a tough nut to crack. How do you keep innocents safe and protect the rights of all involved.
    I have always thought the "patriot act" was an unconstitutional overreach of power. I get it. Placing too much power in the hands of government is ALWAYS a bad idea.
    I don't know what the answer is, but I will tell you, reporting folks that have made threats to kill someone is not snitching, it is the responsible thing to do. In most states, that will likely result in a short term, involuntary commitment to a mental health facility.
    Does it suck? Yes.
    Is it better than letting someone get killed?
    I say, Yes.
    All red flag laws are wrong regardless of how they are written. I’m sorry that you feel like it’s your duty to report on something you over hear and may or may not take out of context. I’m sure we agree on many things. Not this.
     

    fdkay

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 27, 2009
    5,777
    2,511
    59
    Ingleside, Tx
    All red flag laws are wrong regardless of how they are written. I’m sorry that you feel like it’s your duty to report on something you over hear and may or may not take out of context. I’m sure we agree on many things. Not this.
    Fair enough, but it is pretty hard to take what the OP stated in the beginning as out of context.
    Just to be clear, you're saying that folks should not, in any circumstance report this:
    1584017296134.png
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Maggot

    seansmd

    In a minute man
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 8, 2018
    1,768
    1,355
    San Jose, CA
    There is a huge difference in red flag laws and involving the police in a active situation. The folks that night did the right thing and involved the police when he went awol.
     

    fdkay

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 27, 2009
    5,777
    2,511
    59
    Ingleside, Tx
    There is a huge difference in red flag laws and involving the police in a active situation. The folks that night did the right thing and involved the police when he went awol.
    Not disputing that. Other folks here are of the "mind your own business and never involve the authorities" mindset.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: seansmd

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 16, 2017
    4,984
    6,249
    TEXAS
    Fair enough, but it is pretty hard to take what the OP stated in the beginning as out of context.
    Just to be clear, you're saying that folks should not, in any circumstance report this:
    View attachment 7271385
    Completely different circumstances. The example you just gave has absolutely nothing to do with reed flag laws and is not even part of this conversation. The person is making a public threat to harm. There are terroristic threat laws on the books.

    My issue is for example, you overhearing an individual say something and go to the police on how you interpreted those words who then go to a judge to get a warrant based on your information. Thats the issue and something only a self righteous asshole would consider. (The last statement is not directed at you personally)
     

    Maggot

    Better to die on your feet than live on your knees
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
    15,773
    13,167
    Virginia
    After reading through all the comments Im still in a quandary.

    1-I hate red flag laws.

    2-On the other hand if we hear something REALLY disturbing isnt it our moral duty to our fellow citizens to be responsible?

    Its a really slippery slope, one I hope I never have to navigate. Kind of "Damned if you do, damned if you dont."
     

    MarinePMI

    Ban Cat Handler
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Commercial Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 3, 2010
    7,401
    9,657
    San Diego, Ca
    red flags are only used on citizens as a bludgeon against those that support the 2nd amendment , not against non citizens or criminals that profiling , just like only law abiding citizens will pay as much as we do for firearms jumping through any hoops that the government puts in your way to get that gun , when the exact same ghost gun is less than 300 dollars in a lot of cases and no hoops to jump through to get it no ffl needed also no state or federal tax no warrenty but you knew that going in . but one is legal and one is illegal and that is being blurred more and more . Its against the law or it was to deny a citizen of due process yet every red flag pushed out by the court does just that till you can prove your innocent since when did someone ever have to prove they were innocent without committing a crime first and even then they held the presumption of innocent till proven guilty not with red flags . And why is it always 3 am they come busting in doors if that ain't a home invasion situation what is .


    And why is it I have to wade through your posts with no punctuation, shitty spelling and disjointed thoughts that have little to do with the OP? ? ? ?
     

    MarinePMI

    Ban Cat Handler
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Commercial Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 3, 2010
    7,401
    9,657
    San Diego, Ca
    Crazy who shows up. We had a guy who shot every club match for 2 years then got arrested for robbing 8 banks in San Diego.

    made for some good memes

    View attachment 7270010
    View attachment 7270011

    LOL! How did I KNOW you were going to post that here? ???

    OP, you guys did the right thing. A lot of times that little voice in the back your head is picking up on something not obvious to most, but usually bears listening to...

    With the guy hic28 posted about, we had no flipping clue whatsoever. Just another quiet, geeky engineer out shooting long range tactical rifle...who knew?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: seansmd

    fdkay

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 27, 2009
    5,777
    2,511
    59
    Ingleside, Tx
    Completely different circumstances. The example you just gave has absolutely nothing to do with reed flag laws and is not even part of this conversation. The person is making a public threat to harm. There are terroristic threat laws on the books.

    My issue is for example, you overhearing an individual say something and go to the police on how you interpreted those words who then go to a judge to get a warrant based on your information. Thats the issue and something only a self righteous asshole would consider. (The last statement is not directed at you personally)
    I disagree, in my opinion (which is worth exactly what you paid for it), my example is EXACTLY what red flag laws, IF enacted, should be for.
    A Terroristic Threat doesn't result in confiscation of weapons.
    maybe this is the disconnect between us.
    The OP (or someone that had direct knowledge) was present when the nut job made the threat.
    Said nut job did, in fact kill someone, though at a later date.
    Would a red flag law have been appropriate?
    I don't know, as I said, it is a very slippery slope and one I am fearful of stepping onto.
    How ever, a properly written red flag law would address the example I provided. Could it still be used inappropriately? Yes, but there should also be safety factors included in regards to false reporting, etc... that would result in serious jail time. (of course, that would never happen).
    There has already been inappropriate use of a red flag law, where a criminal filed a red flag complaint against the deputy that arrested him.
    My, how the hand wringing began. Howl's of "that's not what we intended" . The road to hell is paved with good intentions and unintended consequences are very real consequences.

    I want to be clear. I do not endorse Red Flag laws. As I stated, I was playing devil's advocate. I don't know what the answer is, but I DO know, there are folks out there that should not have firearms.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: WATERWALKER