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Suppressors XD9 Tactical

Re: XD9 Tactical

It's always funny to me how when the hard post about "elitist assholes" comes up, it's promptly followed up with comments about the "inferior folk". When you see the comment bashing those "Nazis" on this forum who dare comment on grammar and spelling (because after all, we're reading here), it's nicely followed up with a challenge of the very nature & mindset being chastised.

I have been guilty of it all: 1911's, XD's, Glocks, misspelling and grammatical error and what I have come to find out that matters most when arguing opinion about subjective issues is this:
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Handloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, I am just amazed at the comments here. It seems that there is a fraction of elitist asshole(s) that feel the need to ensure that all the users of this site can see how well they can interpret, analyze, and correct punctuation and verb-adjective agreement(s). I have found those that feel the continual need to correct (the spelling Nazi’s) the blogs written by others, are often just plain inferior folk. Ever noticed the guy in the unit, or office that has to correct everyone, they are most often the same guy everyone else calls a dipshit. Looks like there are a lot of dipshits in this topic, but that said; thanks for a functional understanding of the intellect level for those that fell compelled to correct (dipshit).</div></div>
Now this is getting even funnier, as the plastic-ware, thin skinned, folks gather up.
Please pile up the insults, to show your failure of making any point whatsoever. But you already know that, don't you?
If you notice, at least from my posts, comments about spelling and grammar do not come that often (or, did they ever before this post?). Anyone can misspell a word or two.
But the post that was picked, was just a little mess of its own.
Where I come from, throwing stuff on other people shoulders to sort it out, is not sign of respect. Maybe in your area it is.
Now, how about you crawl back into the cave you came from, grow a thicker skin, and come back?
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

WOWZA, what a thread. So um, i like Xds and 1911s, both great guns, both do the job. Honestly who cares as long as it goes bang everytime, it fits your hand, and the shooter likes it. What else do you need.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

According to some. It's blasphemy that you would shoot anything other then a 1911. I like to be open minded and have a variety.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

Figured I'd throw my .02 in here.
First CCW I had was a XD40sc. Looked @ a G27, didnt feel "right". Put over 1500rnds through it w/o a single issue. Only reason I sold it was the I wanted a .45 and w/ my Crossbreed holster I had plenty of room. So I sold it and bought a XD45c. About 1200 rounds later, NO ISSUES. Hell I even got compliments on how it shot from a couple of friends of mine, Kimber 1911 owners none the less. Well last spring I got the itch for a 1911 so the XD was sold. Wanted a .45 I could tinker with and build. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago...ordered a XDm in a 9mm.
Reasoning behind a 9? Well as a CCW The 19+1 is hard to argue with. An accurate follow-up shot(s)is a bit easier w/ the minimal flip. Realistically, a quality personal defense round in 9mm can be just as effective as a .40. The other thing is the ability to find cheap ammo. Ever find any surplus .40?
My only question to the OP is why not look into the (m)? Its not that much more money considering what you get. Anyways, get what you want, shoot what you want. Is my 1911 alot of fun? yeah. Is the XDm alot of fun? yeah. Screw what everyone else thinks.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper12b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL. Thats funny Sobr. </div></div>

Actually, the original subtitle was " 1911....making up for other inadequacies."
</div></div>
...hmm, I don't recall typing that in motifake when I made the pic.

And if we didn't have to play nice with NATO folks and adapt weapons to fit women in the military that old JMB inadequate design would be finishing its tenth decade as our service pistol.

I did point out, in response to the OP's question, that XD's are my choice of polymer. One usually finds 1911 fans in XD threads because most 1911 shooters prefer the XD's ergo's to other plastic guns.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to some. It's blasphemy that you would shoot anything other then a 1911. I like to be open minded and have a variety. </div></div>
Note that I'm really open minded. I just stated that <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> prefer 1911 to Glocks and XDs.
OK, I maybe threw some sarcasm in the mix, and this stirred the thin-skinned folks up
grin.gif
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

Good choice as I indicated earlier. However, I just want to point out one thing. I stated in my original post that I have owned, and still own a polymer pistol, as did EVERY other member that posted a favorable comment about a 1911. The 1911 was the last pistol I purchased and it is my favorite, most accurate weapon to shoot. You call out anyone that makes a post endorsing the 1911 saying that they are misleading the OP, while at the same time attempting to endorse great "technological advancements" and magazine capacity. If you add 19+1 rounds to a polymer pistol you are looking at a weight commiserate with a 7+1 1911. Some may think that 20 rounds is an advantage, some don't. To each their own. Durability has even been thrown out there, but I just hope my USP lasts half as long as my 1911.
Each person's opinion has its merits, but please read posts in context before starting flame wars just because you assume skimming posts will give you a full grasp of what each person states. I think if everyone read the ENTIRE thread from the beginning we would see where most people have shot different types and prefer a certain kind. The 1911 and Browning Hi-Power were marvels of there time, and advances to such a great degree at one shot have not been accomplished since. That is a fact. The "JMB Cult" as it was referred to earlier is not the only group to cling to a certain brand or type.
I enjoy the hide so much for the diversity of knowledge. Sometimes people overlook a certain aspect that they might want to consider before laying down money on a piece of equipment, and people are free to throw out their opinion. No need to get all butt hurt because someone does not like the same thing you do. This does not apply to the "JMB cult" or "tupperware cult" exclusively. Now give your opinions...just be nice.

Josh
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: prplhaz72</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WOWZA, what a thread. So um, i like Xds and 1911s, both great guns, both do the job. Honestly who cares as long as it goes bang everytime, it fits your hand, and the shooter likes it. What else do you need. </div></div>

I could use JUST ONE more thing - when people post a thread asking about a gun OTHER THAN a 1911, that the JMB cult NOT crap in the thread saying any gun NOT a 1911 is an inferior gun.

That's all I need.

 
Re: XD9 Tactical

sigh how did this get turned into glock vs XD, then 1911 vs polymer guns...and there seems to be some people here trying to justify their purchases and making claims without knowing what they are talking about. back on topic, yes the XD9 Tactical is an Excellent firearm, YMMV best thing is to go to a range, rent three comparable models in similar price range and find out what YOU like, not what internet commandos who have tried everything and fired 45k rounds through every pistol made tell ya. JMHO
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

Well, I think 1911's and XD's feel very similar. The grip angle feels like one to me. I like them both, and would not hesitate to carry or shoot either one. I love 1911's as many people do. It is a great design of a handgun. 7-8 rounds is plenty for a defensive gun. Like on of the previous posts, if you can't stop a threat with 7-8 rounds, how are you going to stop it with 14-15 or 19+1 for the new XD(M) 9mm? Shoot what you are comfortable with and not worry what anyone else thinks.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alien319</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7-8 rounds is plenty for a defensive gun. Like on of the previous posts, if you can't stop a threat with 7-8 rounds, how are you going to stop it with 14-15 or 19+1 for the new XD(M) 9mm?</div></div>

That's like saying $7-8,000 in the bank is enuf. What problem could you solve with $19+1 thousand dollars that couldn't be solved with $7-8,000 dollars? Crazy.

The most rudimentary understanding of self-defense reality understands the presence of adrenaline that SIGNIFICANTLY degrades performance and SPEEDS UP the speed at which the trigger is pulled.

Self defense scenarios can be described this way - "A subconcious, semi-controllable attempt to miss fast enuf to win."

Given the SUREFIRE reality of non-CNS hits, and the the probabilility of misses, SURELY a reasonable person can see value in having MORE rounds in the magazine.

Surely.

There is ZERO guarantee the 7-8 rounds fired will even hit the target. (See: Amadou Diallo) Never mind stop it. So YEAH, I'll stand firm on the notion that more CAN DEFINITELY be better.

THIS is what convinces me of the existence of the JMB cult - the constant insistence that 8 > 19+1. And heavier recoil, and slower return to sight picture is better than lighter recoil and faster return to sight picture.

Crazy talk.

If anyone wants an XD, but thinks 7-8 rounds is good enuf, then don't load any more than that in your mag. Like I say - Crazy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Shoot what you are comfortable with and not worry what anyone else thinks. </div></div>

That I agree with.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

If you can't hit with the first 7 or 8 then you're not shooting very well. I'm sure it's not easy to hit something with a very small projectile moving very fast in a high-stress situation, but isn't that why you train? Seems to me like you're more of a liability with 19 rounds if you're not hitting anything by round 3 or 4.

I see nothing wrong with having more bullets in a situation though, because you never know. I've read that it's very uncommon to have one person who is aware of their surroundings to put themselves into a situation where engaging 7-10 people is their only option, but I'm sure it's happened before.

I have a Glock 17 with 10 mags. Fully loaded with one ready to go, I have 171 rounds. I see no problem with that at all
smile.gif


On topic - The XD9 Tactical is an awesome gun, from what I've witnessed and heard. If you shoot one and enjoy it, there's no reason not to get one.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't hit with the first 7 or 8 then you're not shooting very well.</div></div>


Thats correct. And its very likely of high stress shooting scenarios. Again....SEE: Amadou Diallo

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm sure it's not easy to hit something with a very small projectile moving very fast in a high-stress situation, but isn't that why you train?</div></div>

How you gonna train life and death self defense? Not with any degree of reality. IDPA is the best availble to a civilian, and its a joke compared to the real thing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Seems to me like you're more of a liability with 19 rounds if you're not hitting anything by round 3 or 4.</div></div>

Quite possibly, but the LESSER recoil of a 9mm will IMPROVE your hit probability over the harsher recoil of a larger caliber.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

I don't know why everyone gets so angry anyway. If the market didn't value choice, there'd be only one pistol on the market.

I cannot stand double action pistols, so I use single action or striker fired pistols. With that said, there are so many good ones on the market that it comes down to minor feature disputes as to which one I'm going to carry.

If I knew I was going to get in a defensive gun fight tomorrow, and I could have any handgun in my safe, I still don't know which one I'd choose. Probably the one that I was least likely to leave at home, the one I liked the most, or the one I've shot most recently.

Considering a good reload can be done in less than 2 seconds, I find mag capacity extremely unpersuasive as well. Those of us who carry the 1911 realize that even putting a mag well on it makes it less concealable and becomes a compromise. Those of us who carry double stack pistols know that the fat grip is a bitch to conceal sometimes. No answer to this question is perfect. I personally would rather have a lightweight, plastic, single stack, striker fired pistol than anything else, but none of the big name polymer pistol manufacturers make one.

At the end of the day, it's a preference issue. Because budget constrains my choices, I have one Glock and one S&W. In a perfect world, I'd have all sizes and colors of 9mm polymer guns to choose from, and even then I'd still be compromising when I strapped my gun on and walked out the door.

Pick the features that matter to you most and pick a gun and practice with it. That's all that really matters. An Eastwing drives a nail just the same as a Plumb or Stanley, but no matter what, you have to pick which one you're going to buy or you won't have a hammer to swing.

I enjoy philosophical debates about decisionmaking, but a little realism is nice sometimes. The reality is that it doesn't matter what kind of gun you have when the SHTF, you're just glad that you have something. It's not like winning a NASCAR race where you thank Pepsi, Goodyear, and your crew chief. When you win the fight of your life, you're going to be thanking God, not Springfield Armory.

That's not to say that there is no value to undertaking analysis prior to deciding, but to me, the expected value of one pistol vs. another is so remarkably close that it really just comes down to preference anyway.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

Don't forget that BG encounters are getting to the point where it's not just one-on-one. Now they are attacking in groups. You may need more than 7 rounds to adequately hit 3 targets.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't forget that BG encounters are getting to the point where it's not just one-on-one. Now they are attacking in groups. You
may need more than 7 rounds to adequately hit 3 targets. </div></div>

This is misguided, too. The probability of such an attack is extremely low, and even with the absolute best tool of defense and perfect execution, whether you survive that scenario or not is closer to a random game of chance than a foregone conclusion.

I also think that the overwhelming majority of defensive scenarios that you'd face multiple attackers, running is by far the best option. Face to face confrontation armed with only a handgun and having multiple armed attackers is an absolute nightmare situation from which I would not expect to survive.

I'm not saying I wouldn't make my best effort to do so, but making a decision about an everyday carry firearm based on the most extreme and difficult scenario is misguided. Obviously the answer would be to strap a loaded AR-15 onto your back or carry it at the high ready all the time if you thought you'd encounter such a scenario. Since that is obviously not a level of preparedness that is acceptable to perform daily tasks, compromises are essential to any practical answer to this question.

Besides, answering the multiple BG question might be best answered with wearing a kevlar vest so you can still fight after taking a round or two. And obviously the majority of us are not going to wear a vest on a daily basis unless we are LEOs or military--and even then, doing so involves compromising our ability to move quickly.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Considering a good reload can be done in less than 2 seconds, I find mag capacity extremely unpersuasive as well. </div></div>

Yer not factoring in the effects of arenaline degrading the fine motor skill necessary to hit the mag release, clear your cover garment, find the mag on your belt, draw it out, cleanly handle it as your off hands moves toward the gun, find the magwell with the mag, and release the slide into battery, and re-aquire your sight picture. Why do all that when with ONE MAG you can do MORE work that you can do with two 1911 mags, in LESS time, with less mental complexity, and necessity of fine motor skill? Why ride a skateboard when you can drive a Lexus?

Also, certain carry situations make carrying a second mag impractical.

Question - Have you ever actually used a firearm in self defense? If ya haven't, I'm gonna tell ya it IS NOT as glamourous as you think it is. Those blistering fast mag changes ya do on the range are likely NOT gonna translate to the self defense world.

Everyone THINKS they will be stone cold assassins when it comes time. Facts, physiology and logic tells us otherwise.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The probability of such an attack (multi -target) is extremely low

I also think that the overwhelming majority of defensive scenarios that you'd face multiple attackers, running is by far the best option.

Face to face confrontation armed with only a handgun and having multiple armed attackers is an absolute nightmare situation from which I would not expect to survive.

I'm not saying I wouldn't make my best effort to do so, but making a decision about an everyday carry firearm based on the most extreme and difficult scenario is misguided.

Obviously the answer would be to strap a loaded AR-15 onto your back or carry it at the high ready all the time if you thought you'd encounter such a scenario.

</div></div>

I agree with every statement above, and teach as much in my CCW classes.

Well said.

Most self-defense scenarios are over in less than 7 seconds, occur within seven feet, and when a firearm is presented in self defense, 80% of the time the BG bugs out without the GG ever actually firing a shot.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

I wasn't trying to suggest that 2 second reloads would be the norm in one if these situations, but I'm pretty sure if I was running from the bad guy and behind cover, I could find a few seconds to shove another magazine in, if I had one.

Usually I don't even bother to carry one, but that's a different discussion.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

I had an xd 9 tactical and I had alot of problems with it. It jammed alot and had tons of ftf and fte. Several other shooter's shot the weapon and the same thing occured. So I know it was the gun and not me. On the same token I know a guy that had a 4" .40 and it ran like a champ for him.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

Garand,

Again just so we are on the same page...I own both polymer and steel and I like both. I just happen to like my 1911 better. This thread is about the xd9. The XD is a fine weapon. I have shot the G17 and G19. the XD is better FOR ME on almost all accounts. I preferred it to the P226 I also shot extensively. Yes, not 45K rounds, but about 10K, so that should have been sufficient. I chose to get an HK and trade my XD...It was a great choice as I point and shoot the USPC even better.
Your recoil energy argument is moot unless we talk .40. The difference in recoil impulse between the 9 and 45 is only 1.9 ft/lbs more for the .45. However, even the heaviest Hydra-shok load for 9mm (147) delivers 326 ft/lbs at the muzzle whereas the lightest load of 45 hydra-shok (165) delivers 412 ft/lbs.
I guess we just want to make sure the guy makes a fully informed decision. Anyway, the XD is always a good choice. Have fun shooting it and just remember to run drills and do the fundamentals so you don't wind up being a statistic. Read the stats on gunfights and you will see that you will be lucky to get off 4-5 rounds, much less 19. If you have to fire 19 and you are not in a job that may require it, then you have violated many other tenants of self defense that put you in a less than optimal place and time. Sorry, Jeff Cooper talks about it, that's not me being original or pulling things out of thin air.

Josh
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Garand,

Again just so we are on the same page...I own both polymer and steel and I like both. I just happen to like my 1911 better. This thread is about the xd9. The XD is a fine weapon. I have shot the G17 and G19. the XD is better FOR ME on almost all accounts. I preferred it to the P226 I also shot extensively. Yes, not 45K rounds, but about 10K, so that should have been sufficient. I chose to get an HK and trade my XD...It was a great choice as I point and shoot the USPC even better. </div></div>

That's cool.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your recoil energy argument is moot unless we talk .40. The difference in recoil impulse between the 9 and 45 is only 1.9 ft/lbs more for the .45. However, even the heaviest Hydra-shok load for 9mm (147) delivers 326 ft/lbs at the muzzle whereas the lightest load of 45 hydra-shok (165) delivers 412 ft/lbs. </div></div>


Not so fast. Dry statistical data is nice, but doesn't always reflect the real world.

I would recommend you take a look at R. Lee Ermey's "Lock and Load: Pistols" episode. While the Gunny is singing the praises of his prehistoric 1911
wink.gif
he does a super slo-mo side-by-side vid of 1911 vs. Beretta M9 recoil. The Beretta is locked back into battery and ready to be sighted while the 1911 is still chambering the next round.

The vid shows it plain as day.

Incidentally, even R.Lee produced faster, more accurate hits with the M9 than with the 1911. He didn't make ANY comment about that fact......
wink.gif


See...the ....video.....


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guess we just want to make sure the guy makes a fully informed decision.
Josh </div></div>

I am convinced that's what we all want.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Not so fast. Dry statistical data is nice, but doesn't always reflect the real world.

I would recommend you take a look at R. Lee Ermey's "Lock and Load: Pistols" episode. While the Gunny is singing the praises of his prehistoric 1911
wink.gif
he does a super slo-mo side-by-side vid of 1911 vs. Beretta M9 recoil. The Beretta is locked back into battery and ready to be sighted while the 1911 is still chambering the next round.

The vid shows it plain as day.

Incidentally, even R.Lee produced faster, more accurate hits with the M9 than with the 1911. He didn't make ANY comment about that fact......
wink.gif


See...the ....video.....</div></div>



Oh f*&k me!! You say that stats about kinetic energy aren't trustworthy, but that Gunny's TV production slow-mo speeds are? I think Lock and Load's presentation would be the more suspect of the two.....

You can't argue the gamer (fastest time back on target) and the self-defense angle at the same time. Hell, you want fast back on target times you can come video my Para running 40 bunny fart loads! I'm sur it'd beat the M9 on TV, but it wouldn't be my carry choice.

Again, you get 1911 input when questions are asked about XD's because they are the closest poly highcap mass produced pistol to the Ergo's of a 1911, deal with it.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

The last time I shot a Beretta, it stove piped every other round or so because it was so fat, that I couldn't even hang onto it.

So much for fast and accurate.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



Oh f*&k me!! You say that stats about kinetic energy aren't trustworthy, but that Gunny's TV production slow-mo speeds are? I think Lock and Load's presentation would be the more suspect of the two.....

You can't argue the gamer (fastest time back on target) and the self-defense angle at the same time. Hell, you want fast back on target times you can come video my Para running 40 bunny fart loads! I'm sur it'd beat the M9 on TV, but it wouldn't be my carry choice.

Again, you get 1911 input when questions are asked about XD's because they are the closest poly highcap mass produced pistol to the Ergo's of a 1911, deal with it.

</div></div>


See.....the.....video.....

And typical attitude of the 1911 crowd. Not universal, but typical. Religious fervor. Cultish adoration. "We're gonna talk about our %&$^%* 1911's whether you like it or not. In every thread. Everywhere."

Relax....were just talkin' about guns......not God....or you're self worth.

 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The last time I shot a Beretta, it stove piped every other round or so because it was so fat, that I couldn't even hang onto it.

So much for fast and accurate. </div></div>

In my experience, that's due to limp wristing the gun, giving it insufficient platform for recoil and ejection of the spent round. Serious. Not making a joke.


Are you familiar with the term "anecdotal evidence?"

Cuz I can give you PLENNY of it for malfunctioning 1911's. Like the last one a friend of mine bought from Springfield. Been back to manufactuer twice already, and he needs to send it back a third.

(Hint: anecdotal evidence is no proof of anything)

The fact that a gun isn't the right choice for YOU is NOT evidence its a substandard gun.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
You can't argue the gamer (fastest time back on target) and the self-defense angle at the same time.
</div></div>


I'll address this separately.

I have no idea what the "gamer angle" is. I'll guess yer talking about video games, or IDPA or something. I have no idea. I do play IDPA. I don't play video games.

I am all about the "self defense angle" and my paricipation in this thread is to provide true, factual, info to the OP. Getting your gun back on target as fast as possible for a follow up shot IS a huge part of effective self defense. And is immensely important for a combat pistol. The video evidence shown by 1911 lover R Lee Ermy clearly shows the 9mm M9 to be faster. I find someone who loves the 1911, but shows the M9 to be faster back on target, to be IMMENSELY credible.

Such an individual can have their passions, but ALSO accept reason and reality. A-typical of the typical 1911 crowd.

So, whatever it is you mean.....you are wrong.





 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Getting your gun back on target as fast as possible for a follow up shot IS a huge part of effective self defense.</div></div>

For a competent shooter, the sights don't leave the target long enough to make a difference.

The phenomenum which limits a <span style="font-style: italic">competent</span> shooter's ability to make follow-up shots with a pistol is the time it takes the slide to cycle. This is demonstrated by Jerry Miculek's ability to drive a revolver with faster shot-to-shot times than anyone can drive an auto pistol.

It's also shown in IDPA competition by how close the top times in classes limited to .45 ACP pistols are to those where 9 mm pistols can run.

I'm afraid your argument doesn't hold water.

If you want to be able to defend yourself with a pistol, having a reliable pistol you can hit the target with is far more important than what caliber the pistol is.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Such an individual can have their passions, but ALSO accept reason and reality. A-typical of the typical 1911 crowd.
</div></div>
And of course, you tagging as Ignorant and Uneducated when someone else simply states his non liking of a certain class of pistols, is typical of what?
I always liked the place where people live by their own rules, and you must clearly be a foreigner of such place.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
For a competent shooter, the sights don't leave the target long enough to make a difference. </div></div>

Yeeeeaaahhhhhhh.....OK, Mr. comeptent shooter guy.....whatever.

If they leave the target AT ALL sight picture must be re-acquired.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The phenomenum which limits a <span style="font-style: italic">competent</span> shooter's ability to make follow-up shots with a pistol is the time it takes the slide to cycle. This is demonstrated by Jerry Miculek's ability to drive a revolver with faster shot-to-shot times than anyone can drive an auto pistol.</div></div>

Well, I don't teach the Jerry Miculek crowd in my CCW classes. And CCW isn't a range demo using reduced power handloads.

I teach them to reacquire their sight picture BEFORE squeezing off the next round BECAUSE LIABILITY IS ATTACHED TO EVERY ROUND HEADING DOWN RANGE.

I'm glad you are a "competent" shooter. Aren't you superior.

But over here in the real world, I teach people to defend themselves in a manner that they survive the encounter, and don't injure any innocent parties. And that REQUIRES re-acquiring sight picture.

You may considert yourself "competent" but I consider you acting irresponsibly if you are not reacquiring sight picture BEFORE sqeezing off the next round (in anything but a point blank, gun in the belly situation)
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HotIce</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And of course, you tagging as Ignorant and Uneducated when someone else simply states his non liking of a certain class of pistols, is typical of what?
</div></div>

Well, what would you call the mathematical error of beleiving 7 rounds is greater than 15 rounds?

I got NO problem with preference of the 1911.


I got a problem with the elitist attitude that cannot allow someone to want a polymer gun with a high capcity mag without ALWAYS butting in and evangelizing for the JMB cult.

Which is ignorant and uneducated.

Look above - one guy says he's gonna ALWAYS butt in with his 1911 worship. That's ignorant and uneducated of the positive developments in firearms tech post 1900.

Just as much as always butting into AR15 threads with the superiority of the M1 Garand would be ignorant and uneducated.

That's my opinion. You are free to prefer 1911's, and to disagree wtih my opinion.

 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may considert yourself "competent" but I consider you acting irresponsibly if you are not reacquiring sight picture BEFORE sqeezing off the next round (in anything but a point blank, gun in the belly situation)</div></div>

I agree. Apparently you read but did not understand what I said. That's probably my failure to communicate what I meant.

The sights will be back on the target <span style="font-weight: bold">before</span> the slide is back in battery if the pistol is being shot correctly. The shooter cannot fire again until the slide is back in battery and the trigger is reset.

What limits the rate of fire, therefore, is not the ability to reacquire the sights.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What limits the rate of fire, therefore, is not the ability to reacquire the sights.
</div></div>

We're not talking SIMPLY about the opportunity to pull the trigger (i.e. slide back into battery)

We're talking about the opportunity to take the next aimed, responsible shot - which ABSOLUTELY requires re-acquisition of sight picture. Which due to the reduced recoil of the 9mm round WILL happen faster that with a 1911.

Now if you go <span style="text-decoration: underline">SEE THE VIDEO </span>I am referring to, you would see the M9 WAS back into battery faster than the 1911.

Video tape don't lie.... don't argue it with me. Argue it with 1911 lover R. Lee Ermy. He did the video.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The sights will be back on the target <span style="font-weight: bold">before</span> the slide is back in battery if the pistol is being shot correctly. .
</div></div>


That statement just IS NOT real world in most any shooter BUT the Jerry Miculek crowd.

Certaintly not with factory defensive hollow point loads.

I'm certainly NOT gonna build my CCW class around that theory.

You can argue all ya want about the correct way to shoot a gun. Unless we are gonna limit CCW permits to the Jerry Miculek crowd, our teaching methods gotta incorporate the way average shooters actually shoot.

MOST people are not gonna put 500 rounds down range a month. So I'm gonna teach them to reacquire sight picture - which for them will not be possible till LONG after the slide is back in battery.
Click to expand...
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...you would see the M9 WAS back into battery faster than the 1911.</div></div>

Well, my point was that the sights can be re-acquired <span style="font-style: italic">before</span> the slide is back in battery.

In fact, a properly trained shooter will never <span style="font-style: italic">lose</span> the sight picture while the slide is cycling.

Training a shooter to keep the sight picture through the recoil cycle is a stage in what we teach, even in a time-restricted 2-day combat handgun course.

OTOH, we don't train ab initio CCW students, so perhaps that is not appropriate to your program of instruction.

I'm sure that time restrictions of a CCW course, which is typically taught in a single day of which little time is spent on the range, limit what you can effectively teach. That's too bad, because those time limitations will result in a shooter with a limited ability.

I have no dog in the caliber fight. I own handguns chambered in .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9 mm, and .38 Special+P.

I just want people to be able to effectively use the firearms which a CCW permit allows them to carry.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Training a shooter to keep the sight picture through the recoil cycle is a stage in what we teach, even in a time-restricted 2-day combat handgun course.

</div></div>

Agree - that is the ideal scenario.

If you can do that, then the limitation IS the slide being back into battery, as you said earlier. That is technically true.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want people to be able to effectively use the firearms which a CCW permit allows them to carry.</div></div>

We share that goal. But I doubt 1 in 20 people with a CCW permit will be able to maintain adequate sight picture in the hell that is a real world self defense scenario. Honestly, I doubt I could (given the negative affects of adrenaline dump. And honestly, I look at most claims someone could as pure bravado. ) So I teach what's gonna (1) keep them alive (2) keep them from shooting innocents.






 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HotIce</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And of course, you tagging as Ignorant and Uneducated when someone else simply states his non liking of a certain class of pistols, is typical of what?
</div></div>
Well, what would you call the mathematical error of beleiving 7 rounds is greater than 15 rounds?</div></div>
In your desperate attempt to make a point whatsoever, you put words in my mouth that has never been spoken.
What was argued was the fact that if you did not hit someone with 8 rounds, 14 are likely not to sort a different result.
There are statistics about how many rounds a civilian gun fight usually takes, and that number is around five.
Unless you're into the Zombie attacks fantasies, which I've honestly never envisioned.
You also missed the existence of double stack 1911, in case your area is infested with Zombies.
And, the 8 vs. 14 argument, did not actually call you anything, like you seem to assume in your post above.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HotIce</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What was argued was the fact that if you did not hit someone with 8 rounds, 14 are likely not to sort a different result.
</div></div>


If you desire to risk your life on that theory, I will not stop you. Nor do i care to debate the point with you, or attempt to convince you otherwise.

Have a nice day.

 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...you would see the M9 WAS back into battery faster than the 1911.</div></div>

Well, my point was that the sights can be re-acquired <span style="font-style: italic">before</span> the slide is back in battery.

In fact, a properly trained shooter will never <span style="font-style: italic">lose</span> the sight picture while the slide is cycling.
</div></div>

This is nonsense.

People who have trained and shot hundreds of thousands of pistol rounds and are physically strong will learn to control recoil much better than people who do not shoot regularly. For them, they are waiting for the gun to go back into battery so they can fire again.

For the rest of us who do not have such intense and amazing recoil control skills, we are waiting for our sights to get back on track, not for the slide to cycle.

Much of this depends on loads as well. The reason that top USPSA shooters are using lighter bullets than those of us who aren't so skilled is because they don't want to be waiting for the slide to cycle and are willing to deal with a sharper recoil impulse so that the gun will cycle faster. Those shooters would literally be faster than the gun if they were shooting my 147 grain 9mm load that I shoot most often.

But don't kid yourself that these shooters are in the majority. The overwhelming majority of shooters can shoot faster and better with a slower recoil impulse from heavier bullet loads and even while waiting for the gun to cycle. This is just a fact of life.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skydive91</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am really considering buying one but before i do I am just curious what peoples opinions on them are. how reliable accurate and ect they are. </div></div>

As tempted as I may be to jump into the fray I will stick to adressing the OP's question.

By XD9, I assume you mean the 5" version. I have the 5" compact frame in 45ACP and its the first plastic gun I can shoot as well as the 1911. Not going to compare it to anything else as thats something YOU need to do to decide if its right for you. I have not had any issues ever with reliability or fail to feed YMMV.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is nonsense.</div></div>

There is simply no doubt that people can be trained in a very short period of time to track the sights throughout the recoil cycle - we do that in a two-day course.

That has nothing to do with recoil control. If the pistol is gripped correctly, the sights will be back on the target when the slide returns to battery.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The overwhelming majority of shooters can shoot faster and better with a slower recoil impulse from heavier bullet loads and even while waiting for the gun to cycle.</div></div>

That may or may not be true - and it has nothing to do with what I said.

I repeat - I've got no dog in the caliber fight. Carry what you want. Learn to shoot it well.

This thread has way too much heat and not enough light. I'm outa here.

 
Re: XD9 Tactical

It's not a caliber fight, and you've obviously missed the entire point.

It's also obvious that you haven't even made the simple observations that most competitive shooters understand about the sport.

Shooting a handgun offhand is not like shooting a rifle from a rigid platform (i.e., the ground). Expecting every shooter of every skill and strength level to have a death grip and fire immediately as the gun closes is just utterly unreasonable (and impossible for many shooters) to achieve that level of recoil control.

If it was, nobody would be using compensators in the open division. They'd be unnecessary. Shooters would be waiting for the slide to slam home so they could shoot faster. They'd also probably be using as heavy a recoil spring as possible, so that they could get the slide to cycle as fast as possible (rather than as slow as possible (within reason), as is the norm now).

If your point about shooting fast involves seeing the sights through the entire recoil cycle, I agree with you to a point. But there's still going to be a hesitation (measured in hundredths of a second) in which the shooter assures that his sights are perfectly aligned before breaking the shot. It's not as simple as waiting for the slide to close and squeezing off the shot quickly.

Some shooters at the absolute peak of performance experience "trigger freeze," where the gun does not cycle fast enough for them and they pull the trigger and come up empty. I suspect that even with a production-style pistol, the ability to shoot this fast is exclusive to people at the absolute top levels of competition (A class USPSA shooters or better). With a single action pistol with a light slide and hot ammo, only the fastest grand masters need worry about this phenomena.

The overwhelming majority of pistol shooters will never achieve this level of performance.

Sorry Lindy, but this isn't ballistics or long range rifle shooting and it's obvious that you're far from your expertise in this area.
 
Re: XD9 Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry Lindy, but this isn't ballistics or long range rifle shooting and it's obvious that you're far from your expertise in this area. </div></div>

Obviously...

Lindy's Resume

I'm out as well. If people think I am stuck on one type of pistol after my posts, you are just ignorant. I call it as I have done it.

Josh
 
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