Need to Extend Freebore - Throating Reamer Advice?
- By THEWAKLER
- Bolt Action Rifles
- 3 Replies
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Maggie’s Funny & awesome pics, vids and memes thread (work safe, no nudity)
- The Bear Pit
- 111732 Replies
Got it in Norway 2012. Still 300+-miles to go to get to Nordkapp. Northernmost point in The world that you can ride or drive to! Way North of Deadhorse, Alaska!!
Sirhr
PS. Today’s ride before Pikes Peak was awesome. Met up with @Starbuck amd ran about 180 miles of Colorado canyons at really respectable speeds for adventure bikes! That boy can ride!!
Overall, spectacular day of riding!
Sirhr
Australian Army Sniper Rifle Trials (1990's Parker Hale replacement) - The AT1-M24
- By S12A
- Vintage Sniper Rifles
- 4 Replies
I believe this is the original model of scope, a clearly inferior optic to the selected S&B PMII 3-12
Australian Army Sniper Rifle Trials (1990's Parker Hale replacement) - The AT1-M24
- By S12A
- Vintage Sniper Rifles
- 4 Replies
Preface
This rifle came to my attention during a visit to the Army Museum Bandiana, in Victoria Australia.
In the small arms section I found this rifle sitting above a Keppler and below a Parker Hale M82.
The plaque had limited information on it but enough to get me interested in learning more.
Unfortunately the information on the plaque was incorrect and that was somewhat of a theme of the small arms plaques in this museum however one part was true, the rifle was produced by Armament Technology Inc (ATI) and tested as a potential replacement for the Parker Hale M82.
This post isn't to talk about the trials as a whole and every offering, just this one interesting rifle.
The majority of information in this post came directly from Andrew Weber in a phone "interview"/conversation we had on the subject in 2021, so bear in mind it is a bit one sided though MR Weber certainly was helpful and struck me as having a realistic and fair view of the rifles.
Background
1996-1997.
In the late 1990's, the current Australian Army sniper rifle, the Parker Hale M82 with Kahles ZF69 scope, was outdated and the rifles themselves tired and in frequent need of maintenance.
ATI teamed with 2 ex-Australian Army members, a Corporal and Major (to best of his memory) who had formed a "Tactical Study Group" in relation to the sniper rifle replacement. At the time the group did not have the depth to produce a sniper rifle for the contract and instead approached ATI for partnership.
At the time ATI were a very small company. in MR Webers words " we had been leaders in custom rifle building for a while. I looked at the M24 and thought "we could improve on it as a small shop."
The rifles ATI built had won 7-8 national championships in Canada and they had confidence that the rifle they would produce could perform.
The rifle
Remington 700 SHORT action:
Work done: Faced the action. Faced Bolt Nose. Lugs lapped. Firing pin spring replaced. Cocking piece polished internally. All parts polished internally.
Coating: Black oxide bath - plugged bore and chamber during this process.
Bolt handle: Made by ATI and then welded to bolt body. ATI were a leader in this area but didn't invent it. started in 86. SSG69 had similar bolt knob before them.
Trigger: Remington trigger of the era. Polished sear etc. Tuned.
Barrel:
Length - 26" (Note, I think this is wrong, the barrel looks to be 24" to me)
Profile - M24 1.2" for 2" length taper to 0.09" at 26" (24?)
Twist rate- 1:11.27 - 5R rifling
Manufacturer- Mike Rock
Coating - Black oxide bath after bead blasting for matte finish
Crown- Recessed Target crown (note, we had some discussion on this. Weber referenced some research done around that time regarding the recessed crown vs a 11 degree crown and the effect that had on the shot signature).
Bottom Metal: Made by ATI. Used M14 magazines. Supplied with 4 extra magazines. "Not an ideal setup, very fussy to configure. The bolt face has very little bite which causes an issue for feeding from these mags".
Stock: HS Precision. Green with heavy black fleck .4th sling stud: Ahead of the trigger guard. (part of requirements). (note, I think it is a PST012 in olive/black).
Sights: Brand- Redfield Model- Palma Bases- Redfield (Same sights as M24).
Scope mounts: Brand- Leupold 2 piece QRW Model
Rings: QRW 1" throw lever QD
Note : Weber originally wanted to use the 1 piece M24 style Base and Mk4 rings however the budget stipulated by the Army did not allow for this, unfortunately (for ATI) the other contenders were not penalised for going over the budget and it's likely ATI could have slipped in the M24 / Mk4 parts.
Scope: Leupold Model- 49212 Vari-x III Magnification- 3.5-10x40 with case/ accessories kit like M24. Mildot Reticle.
As above, Weber did not want to use this scope and said "The Mk4 was in use in Canada at the time, was preferred by them or the Bausch and Lomb 10X".
Ammunition : Lapua 170 LB -open base round (Note: this would be the 170Gn Lockbase and was the round selected with the AI SR98 which won the contract).
Accessories:
Bipod - Harris - Bench Rest Height
Sling- Green Canvas, locally made.
Cleaning kit- Made up themselves. Parker hale rods and brushes. Cordura Roll. Also armourers kit with punches, torque wrench etc.
Case- Hard Case
Bag- soft bag
Notes from conversation with Weber:
What they had to change/ sacrifice to meet tender/ directed to change for cost or other reasons:
The scope base. Scope Rings and scope itself.
Adjustability of stock. (Originally had adjustable LOP and cheek rest).
Accuracy performance during trial: 0.3-05MOA
Who were the other contenders: Webber: Not 100% sure. AI for sure as they "gave us the most grief". Hadn't heard about the Keppler (I mentioned the Keppler as it was photographed with the ATI rifle)
Conclusion:
Ultimately the ATI M24-AT1 rifle was not successful and the Accuracy International submission, the SR-98 , was selected and remains in service.
The M24-AT1 was somewhat compromised by the changes they had to make however the AI was more advanced design and did not have the same compromises.
Photos:
(NOTE: At some stage this rifle has had a Kahles ZF84 scope fitted and a 1 piece mount for that, no info available on where that came from but it was probably superior to the Vari-x 3), also of note the Keppler below has the same optic.
This rifle came to my attention during a visit to the Army Museum Bandiana, in Victoria Australia.
In the small arms section I found this rifle sitting above a Keppler and below a Parker Hale M82.
The plaque had limited information on it but enough to get me interested in learning more.
Unfortunately the information on the plaque was incorrect and that was somewhat of a theme of the small arms plaques in this museum however one part was true, the rifle was produced by Armament Technology Inc (ATI) and tested as a potential replacement for the Parker Hale M82.
This post isn't to talk about the trials as a whole and every offering, just this one interesting rifle.
The majority of information in this post came directly from Andrew Weber in a phone "interview"/conversation we had on the subject in 2021, so bear in mind it is a bit one sided though MR Weber certainly was helpful and struck me as having a realistic and fair view of the rifles.
Background
1996-1997.
In the late 1990's, the current Australian Army sniper rifle, the Parker Hale M82 with Kahles ZF69 scope, was outdated and the rifles themselves tired and in frequent need of maintenance.
ATI teamed with 2 ex-Australian Army members, a Corporal and Major (to best of his memory) who had formed a "Tactical Study Group" in relation to the sniper rifle replacement. At the time the group did not have the depth to produce a sniper rifle for the contract and instead approached ATI for partnership.
At the time ATI were a very small company. in MR Webers words " we had been leaders in custom rifle building for a while. I looked at the M24 and thought "we could improve on it as a small shop."
The rifles ATI built had won 7-8 national championships in Canada and they had confidence that the rifle they would produce could perform.
The rifle
Remington 700 SHORT action:
Work done: Faced the action. Faced Bolt Nose. Lugs lapped. Firing pin spring replaced. Cocking piece polished internally. All parts polished internally.
Coating: Black oxide bath - plugged bore and chamber during this process.
Bolt handle: Made by ATI and then welded to bolt body. ATI were a leader in this area but didn't invent it. started in 86. SSG69 had similar bolt knob before them.
Trigger: Remington trigger of the era. Polished sear etc. Tuned.
Barrel:
Length - 26" (Note, I think this is wrong, the barrel looks to be 24" to me)
Profile - M24 1.2" for 2" length taper to 0.09" at 26" (24?)
Twist rate- 1:11.27 - 5R rifling
Manufacturer- Mike Rock
Coating - Black oxide bath after bead blasting for matte finish
Crown- Recessed Target crown (note, we had some discussion on this. Weber referenced some research done around that time regarding the recessed crown vs a 11 degree crown and the effect that had on the shot signature).
Bottom Metal: Made by ATI. Used M14 magazines. Supplied with 4 extra magazines. "Not an ideal setup, very fussy to configure. The bolt face has very little bite which causes an issue for feeding from these mags".
Stock: HS Precision. Green with heavy black fleck .4th sling stud: Ahead of the trigger guard. (part of requirements). (note, I think it is a PST012 in olive/black).
Sights: Brand- Redfield Model- Palma Bases- Redfield (Same sights as M24).
Scope mounts: Brand- Leupold 2 piece QRW Model
Rings: QRW 1" throw lever QD
Note : Weber originally wanted to use the 1 piece M24 style Base and Mk4 rings however the budget stipulated by the Army did not allow for this, unfortunately (for ATI) the other contenders were not penalised for going over the budget and it's likely ATI could have slipped in the M24 / Mk4 parts.
Scope: Leupold Model- 49212 Vari-x III Magnification- 3.5-10x40 with case/ accessories kit like M24. Mildot Reticle.
As above, Weber did not want to use this scope and said "The Mk4 was in use in Canada at the time, was preferred by them or the Bausch and Lomb 10X".
Ammunition : Lapua 170 LB -open base round (Note: this would be the 170Gn Lockbase and was the round selected with the AI SR98 which won the contract).
Accessories:
Bipod - Harris - Bench Rest Height
Sling- Green Canvas, locally made.
Cleaning kit- Made up themselves. Parker hale rods and brushes. Cordura Roll. Also armourers kit with punches, torque wrench etc.
Case- Hard Case
Bag- soft bag
Notes from conversation with Weber:
What they had to change/ sacrifice to meet tender/ directed to change for cost or other reasons:
The scope base. Scope Rings and scope itself.
Adjustability of stock. (Originally had adjustable LOP and cheek rest).
Accuracy performance during trial: 0.3-05MOA
Who were the other contenders: Webber: Not 100% sure. AI for sure as they "gave us the most grief". Hadn't heard about the Keppler (I mentioned the Keppler as it was photographed with the ATI rifle)
Conclusion:
Ultimately the ATI M24-AT1 rifle was not successful and the Accuracy International submission, the SR-98 , was selected and remains in service.
The M24-AT1 was somewhat compromised by the changes they had to make however the AI was more advanced design and did not have the same compromises.
Photos:
(NOTE: At some stage this rifle has had a Kahles ZF84 scope fitted and a 1 piece mount for that, no info available on where that came from but it was probably superior to the Vari-x 3), also of note the Keppler below has the same optic.
SOLD SOLD --- Carbon fiber Proof Elevation stock (25 oz), 700SA-- SOLD
- By vno.helix
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 4 Replies
Sold as well. Only the barelled action is left and for sale here:
www.snipershide.com
Firearms - 223 Proof MTR 2.0 - Zermatt Origin with 20 inch CF Proof - barreled action
This is a take-off barreled action (Zermatt Origin) from a Proof MTR 223 rifle. The Proof OEM Carbon stock and OEM Single Stage trigger are sold. Approx 300 rounds fired. Includes: - 1x10 round Pmag (OEM) - 1 x12 round MDT mag (Never used, $50 value) - APA little bastard 223 brake...
www.snipershide.com
My 7-300 PRC Project *Updated With a Couple Kills*
- By diggler1833
- Bolt Action Rifles
- 25 Replies
TLDR: I've been screwing around with a new rifle. Seriously, if you don't like reading the ramblings about someone experimenting with a bit of a wildcat - might want to save yourself the time here.
I've started down the path to putting together my own hobby-level ELR/long range hunting/just messing around rifle. Why? Because I got a small case of "the envys" when I got to do load development for my buddy's 300NM. However, I'll admit it right off the bat that I wanted a tad less recoil and was willing to trade 20% less barrel life for 20% less recoil with similar ballistic performance. There, you can have my man card.
I chose the 7-300 because quality 300 PRC brass is plentiful. There is some difference between it and the 28 Nosler, but not a whole lot...and I wanted access to more brass offerings. And I didn't want the length of the RUM case or to open my bolt face up for the Norma Mag.
(7-300 / 195 Berger Vs. 7RM /150 ABLR)
I went with the Manson 7-300 PRC M2 reamer because it has a generous .225 freebore, allowing me to load long, and a .319 neck, negating my having to neck turn (.313 loaded). Perhaps other reamers are similar here, to be honest I didn't really look much further after stumbling across the Manson.
My minimum goal was 3K FPS and 2/3 MOA accuracy. Of course, I'll always settle for better than that. I know that some guys claim to hit 3K FPS with the 7RM and PRC and a 190+ bullet. I don't doubt that it might be possible, but I didn't want to live at 70K PSI pressure either.
Barrel is a Bartlein, 1:8, heavy palma, that I had cut to 27". Any longer wouldn't fit in any of my safes with the Area 419 Hellfire attached.
** Here is where I handicapped myself a bit **
-Rifle is built on an older 1086 Surgeon that was originally in .300WM. That thing feeds and shoots beautifully in its WM version. I'm going to have to mess with it in 7-300 configuration, as right now it is a single-feed rifle. The 195gr Berger at .035 off is measuring 2.945 CBTO or right at 3.700 OAL.
-I bought 500, 195gr Berger EOLs on a flash sale for about .47 cents per. I was extremely fortunate to find that sale. However I'm forcing myself to a single bullet and hoping that the barrel likes them well enough (it does).
-Same with powder. Found an unopened keg of N568 for about $270 and just went with it. N568 is not going to give me the same velocities as N570 or perhaps one of the Reloader powders, but I'm not a velocity hound. I have read about guys hitting >3,150 FPS with 190+ bullets, but that isn't going to be me here.
So with only one bullet, and one powder to do load development... what could go wrong?
*****
This is an extremely easy cartridge to form. I just neck down in a Redding bushing die (.315? I'll have to look later) and then mandrel back to .282. I already had the .282 mandrel from my 7mm RM, so I just added the step... it probably isn't necessary, but if I am remembering the .315 correctly it is taking it down a bit too far. One of the other forum members here gave me good advice when I asked: "make sure you give it a good chamfer and lube". No issues so far, and I've prepped 150 pieces of brass. I will probably look at getting a .316 and .317 bushing to try once I go to once fired brass.
That's it. Prime, charge, and seat afterwards.
*****
So, not having a clue about actual data, I started breaking in the barrel at 76.0gr N568 and trying a few seating depths. Velocity was everything that I'd expect out of a 7 PRC (about 2,820), so after the first 20 rounds and a general idea of where I'd want to start my seating depth at I started increasing charge weights.
Oh, accuracy was about a half-minute for (3) shots. I don't trust three-shot groups though. I'm a "do three, five-shot groups and aggregate" kind of guy. Not that it makes my data all that more valid, but I can at least eliminate chasing the lucky group.
I did five-shot groups from 76gr up to 80gr in half-grain increments. by 79gr I was getting some decent flattening of the primers with a bit of cratering. 79.5 the crater was definitely THERE, and I started seeing a hint of ejector mark. And by 80gr I had a very noticeable ejector mark. Granted, this is on virgin brass, so I might get away with trying a bit higher in subsequent loadings. 80gr gave me 3,012 FPS. I had hit that goal, but also hit pressure. From the data I had read on VV's website, I was expecting to be able to compress the load before I hit noticeable pressure signs. Not the case here.
However, from 76.0 - 79.0 across three full grains of powder the groups stayed consistently around the 3/4 MOA mark for five shots at 100 yards. Even more surprising, the POI didn't shift half a tenth in all of it. On top of that, I think 5 of the 9 groups had single digit SDs. By this point, I had 65 rounds on the barrel. I loaded tried a single five-shot group at 79.0gr at 300 yards and it came out to 2-5/8". Velocity for that (79.0) during testing was about 2,955 FPS with a SD of 9.
On another day, I then tried seating in and out again in .010 increments, going from .015 - .065 (@ 79.0gr), but did all of that at 300 yards this time on steel (five round groups still). Across that .050 range, every group measured between 2-1/16" and 2-5/8". I did have one group with an uncalled "flier", but it was still only 3" on the nose. I doubt that I could shoot much more consistently if they had been the same length. This barrel/bullet/powder combo might not be lights out, but it has the widest window of consistent accuracy that I've got. I'm surprised. That test took me up to 100 rounds even. I just went with .035 off as it is going to give me at least .030 erosion before I have to (or don't have to) worry about it.
I then gave 25 rounds of 180gr ELD-M a try. I didn't have much luck at all and gave up on them. I will verify that this barrel will indeed - shoot greater than 1 MOA.
At 125 rounds, I chronographed 79.0 and 79.5gr again, and shot them at 300 again. The barrel sped up about 45 FPS. 79.0 gave me 3,001 FPS with an ES of 26 and SD of 11, and 79.5gr gave me 3,018...but I didn't like the primers and faint ejector mark.
I shot the 79.0gr load again at 650 to verify/true velocity (I use an old chronograph, but it works). It was spot on at 3.3 mils. Accuracy was ~.6 MOA. That is right in line with the 2-1/16 and 2-1/4" @ 300 yards groups I've shot with it.
So, bottom line: I've hit my minimum goals, and don't completely feel like I wasted money (even though I did). I'm probably the limiting factor in the accuracy. And I probably need a different powder if I am going to jump velocity anymore and run with the fast guys. For now though I'm content.
I've only got 135 rounds through her.
I'll probably leave it by the back door during hunting season so I can completely overkill a 170lb whitetail at 250 yards, or maybe see how the 195gr Berger does on a coyote or two. Why? Because 'Merica.
If you made it this long...thanks.
I've started down the path to putting together my own hobby-level ELR/long range hunting/just messing around rifle. Why? Because I got a small case of "the envys" when I got to do load development for my buddy's 300NM. However, I'll admit it right off the bat that I wanted a tad less recoil and was willing to trade 20% less barrel life for 20% less recoil with similar ballistic performance. There, you can have my man card.
I chose the 7-300 because quality 300 PRC brass is plentiful. There is some difference between it and the 28 Nosler, but not a whole lot...and I wanted access to more brass offerings. And I didn't want the length of the RUM case or to open my bolt face up for the Norma Mag.
(7-300 / 195 Berger Vs. 7RM /150 ABLR)
I went with the Manson 7-300 PRC M2 reamer because it has a generous .225 freebore, allowing me to load long, and a .319 neck, negating my having to neck turn (.313 loaded). Perhaps other reamers are similar here, to be honest I didn't really look much further after stumbling across the Manson.
My minimum goal was 3K FPS and 2/3 MOA accuracy. Of course, I'll always settle for better than that. I know that some guys claim to hit 3K FPS with the 7RM and PRC and a 190+ bullet. I don't doubt that it might be possible, but I didn't want to live at 70K PSI pressure either.
Barrel is a Bartlein, 1:8, heavy palma, that I had cut to 27". Any longer wouldn't fit in any of my safes with the Area 419 Hellfire attached.
** Here is where I handicapped myself a bit **
-Rifle is built on an older 1086 Surgeon that was originally in .300WM. That thing feeds and shoots beautifully in its WM version. I'm going to have to mess with it in 7-300 configuration, as right now it is a single-feed rifle. The 195gr Berger at .035 off is measuring 2.945 CBTO or right at 3.700 OAL.
-I bought 500, 195gr Berger EOLs on a flash sale for about .47 cents per. I was extremely fortunate to find that sale. However I'm forcing myself to a single bullet and hoping that the barrel likes them well enough (it does).
-Same with powder. Found an unopened keg of N568 for about $270 and just went with it. N568 is not going to give me the same velocities as N570 or perhaps one of the Reloader powders, but I'm not a velocity hound. I have read about guys hitting >3,150 FPS with 190+ bullets, but that isn't going to be me here.
So with only one bullet, and one powder to do load development... what could go wrong?
*****
This is an extremely easy cartridge to form. I just neck down in a Redding bushing die (.315? I'll have to look later) and then mandrel back to .282. I already had the .282 mandrel from my 7mm RM, so I just added the step... it probably isn't necessary, but if I am remembering the .315 correctly it is taking it down a bit too far. One of the other forum members here gave me good advice when I asked: "make sure you give it a good chamfer and lube". No issues so far, and I've prepped 150 pieces of brass. I will probably look at getting a .316 and .317 bushing to try once I go to once fired brass.
That's it. Prime, charge, and seat afterwards.
*****
So, not having a clue about actual data, I started breaking in the barrel at 76.0gr N568 and trying a few seating depths. Velocity was everything that I'd expect out of a 7 PRC (about 2,820), so after the first 20 rounds and a general idea of where I'd want to start my seating depth at I started increasing charge weights.
Oh, accuracy was about a half-minute for (3) shots. I don't trust three-shot groups though. I'm a "do three, five-shot groups and aggregate" kind of guy. Not that it makes my data all that more valid, but I can at least eliminate chasing the lucky group.
I did five-shot groups from 76gr up to 80gr in half-grain increments. by 79gr I was getting some decent flattening of the primers with a bit of cratering. 79.5 the crater was definitely THERE, and I started seeing a hint of ejector mark. And by 80gr I had a very noticeable ejector mark. Granted, this is on virgin brass, so I might get away with trying a bit higher in subsequent loadings. 80gr gave me 3,012 FPS. I had hit that goal, but also hit pressure. From the data I had read on VV's website, I was expecting to be able to compress the load before I hit noticeable pressure signs. Not the case here.
However, from 76.0 - 79.0 across three full grains of powder the groups stayed consistently around the 3/4 MOA mark for five shots at 100 yards. Even more surprising, the POI didn't shift half a tenth in all of it. On top of that, I think 5 of the 9 groups had single digit SDs. By this point, I had 65 rounds on the barrel. I loaded tried a single five-shot group at 79.0gr at 300 yards and it came out to 2-5/8". Velocity for that (79.0) during testing was about 2,955 FPS with a SD of 9.
On another day, I then tried seating in and out again in .010 increments, going from .015 - .065 (@ 79.0gr), but did all of that at 300 yards this time on steel (five round groups still). Across that .050 range, every group measured between 2-1/16" and 2-5/8". I did have one group with an uncalled "flier", but it was still only 3" on the nose. I doubt that I could shoot much more consistently if they had been the same length. This barrel/bullet/powder combo might not be lights out, but it has the widest window of consistent accuracy that I've got. I'm surprised. That test took me up to 100 rounds even. I just went with .035 off as it is going to give me at least .030 erosion before I have to (or don't have to) worry about it.
I then gave 25 rounds of 180gr ELD-M a try. I didn't have much luck at all and gave up on them. I will verify that this barrel will indeed - shoot greater than 1 MOA.
At 125 rounds, I chronographed 79.0 and 79.5gr again, and shot them at 300 again. The barrel sped up about 45 FPS. 79.0 gave me 3,001 FPS with an ES of 26 and SD of 11, and 79.5gr gave me 3,018...but I didn't like the primers and faint ejector mark.
I shot the 79.0gr load again at 650 to verify/true velocity (I use an old chronograph, but it works). It was spot on at 3.3 mils. Accuracy was ~.6 MOA. That is right in line with the 2-1/16 and 2-1/4" @ 300 yards groups I've shot with it.
So, bottom line: I've hit my minimum goals, and don't completely feel like I wasted money (even though I did). I'm probably the limiting factor in the accuracy. And I probably need a different powder if I am going to jump velocity anymore and run with the fast guys. For now though I'm content.
I've only got 135 rounds through her.
I'll probably leave it by the back door during hunting season so I can completely overkill a 170lb whitetail at 250 yards, or maybe see how the 195gr Berger does on a coyote or two. Why? Because 'Merica.
If you made it this long...thanks.
