Already running 177 SMK at 3045 fps in 22" 308 with hybrid cases. And 3126 fps in the long barrel.
So the 174 ELD- VT should have 3000 fps velocity with several powders.
They bullets have arrived, so it's time go get around to loading them.
.308 Winchester
- Thread starter Two Shoes
- Start date
So the 174 ELD- VT should have 3000 fps velocity with several powders.
They bullets have arrived, so it's time go get around to loading them.
what powder(s) are you using and what barrel lengths if you don’t mind me asking? Also how are they grouping?
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I have 8 308s autos, and bolts...
I only run hybrid cases with high pressure loads in bolt guns for obvious reasons.
I have 308s in lengths of 16, 2,18, 20 (dead), 22, 24, 26 (dead), 27, & 30 inches.
Twists 12, 11.25, 10, 9, & 8.
The 3045 fps with 177s was in the light weight 22" 9 twist.
The 3126 fps was 177 gr SMK in 30" 8 twist heavy Palma, long action, alum chassis, for shooting 200 SMK 2900 fps to 250 Atips a bit over 2500 fps with hybrid cases or Lapua cases with a bit less velocity.
Powder was RL 17 in this particular test with 177 SMK.
Accuracy is good, usually a bit lower than max pressure loads around 50 fps from top loads.
Not the fastest but damn did they group…and from a Savage lol
Savage APO 24”
Garmin Zero
6/21/25
90F 56% 30.15in
Berger 185 Classic Hunter
Bullet BTO 0.7050
Varget 42.7
FGMM Br x 1
210M
COL 2.0190
BTO 2.0450
2556, 2664, 2661, 2658, 2681, 2685, 2658, 2670, 2659, 2662 SD 10 ES 30
Savage APO 24”
Garmin Zero
6/21/25
90F 56% 30.15in
Berger 185 Classic Hunter
Bullet BTO 0.7050
Varget 42.7
FGMM Br x 1
210M
COL 2.0190
BTO 2.0450
2556, 2664, 2661, 2658, 2681, 2685, 2658, 2670, 2659, 2662 SD 10 ES 30
yep... just one box though since we're trying to settle on a projectile.
on that topic... how much of an improvement does a graphite dry lube tend to make when the case mouth is dipped to group size?
I clean the case mouths with a brush but never thought of lubricating them as every lube I thought of was oil of some sort forgot about dry lube like graphite.
Why do you clean them with a brush? Don’t remove something then look to put it back. Just making your life harder and adding steps. The fouling in the neck/mouth works like a lube. Leave it there.
Well... I had thought cleaning the case mouth would possibly cause a more uniform grip on the projectile... and so a more uniform release at a specific pressure. Also wanted to make sure there were no continents though I pick up my fired brass off the table, my friends rifle has a spring loaded ejector so I tend to have to pick his cases up off the ground.
Tumbling cleans out anything like ground material. All mine get tossed to the ground in matches and they work just fine after tumbling. Never anything in the neck that shouldn’t be there.
I anneal before I do anything, the toss them in the tumbler with walnut media for an hour, then deprime/size… yeah it’s probably a waste of my time… anyway about this graphite in the case mouth, does that really make a noticeable difference or are we talking tiny tiny improvements? Or is it more a consistency thing? Like helps get rid of “flyers”?
No idea as I never saw a need for it. Sounds like someone who wet tumbles might use as they remove everything in the brass to make it super clean and shiny. Adding graphite will add what they just removed and help add to their OCD. lol
I’m about to begin reloading and I’ve heard great things about the 185gr jugs from Berger so I bought 100 of them for when the equipment gets in. With that being said, my dad gave me some CFE223 will that work well at all for this bullet being so heavy and coming out of a 24” barre or should I just wait until I find varget or H4350 TIA
I don’t think as well as other powders but haven’t used it myself with 185 Juggs
Varget. Temp stable and usually available. IMR4064 and H4895 will work too. Varget in stock at powder valley
While I didn’t use that powder with the jugs I have used it, I believe with 178gr Hornady ELD-M’s, it wasn’t as good as the Varget but wasn’t bad either. My rifles also got a 24” barrel btw.
Anyone have good results with Hornady 155gr ELDM? If so, what length jump gave good results?
I have tried 20thou. The results are less than stellar.
I have tried 20thou. The results are less than stellar.
CFE223 is a dirty powder and not temp stable compared to the Extreme line at Hodgdon. I use it in my 6ARC only due to need as nothing else will do what I need but in a .308 it would be way down the list but if you have it then use it.
For 308 I load for mag length or F TR
At Mag length I have had best luck with 155,155.5 and 175 grain bullets for all around target use
I really like the 155/155.5 in gas guns behind 43.5. Grains of H4895 in Lapua brass.
With 175’s I basically use a duplicate of Fed GMM load
Once I go to long loaded ammo I use 185’s in 1/10 twist for 600 and 200’s with Varget or N140
At Mag length I have had best luck with 155,155.5 and 175 grain bullets for all around target use
I really like the 155/155.5 in gas guns behind 43.5. Grains of H4895 in Lapua brass.
With 175’s I basically use a duplicate of Fed GMM load
Once I go to long loaded ammo I use 185’s in 1/10 twist for 600 and 200’s with Varget or N140
Okay, with that being said would you say H4350 or Varget is better for the 175 and 185gr bullets in .308 in your experience?
Definitely Varget. All I have used in my .308 for decades. Great .308 powder and very temp stable.
You know that .020" jump in your chamber could mean an .080" jump in my chamber? If this were so and I handed you one of my cartridges that has a jump of .010" in my gun, how do you think it's going to fit in your gun?
It's better to reference COAL than jump to have a decent idea of someone else's cartridges configuration.
If my 20 thou is equal to your 80 thou, then you are running a non-standard chamber. In that case your COAL is useless to anyone not running the same chamber as you. If I load to your COAL I would by jamming the round, something I would like to avoid.You know that .020" jump in your chamber could mean an .080" jump in my chamber? If this were so and I handed you one of my cartridges that has a jump of .010" in my gun, how do you think it's going to fit in your gun?
It's better to reference COAL than jump to have a decent idea of someone else's cartridges configuration.
A better measurement would be how far to the lands you load to get good results. That would give me a better starting point.
Yes, you'd be jamming that round since my chamber is not the same as yours. And that's why it's not a good idea to ask about someone else's distance to the lands and better to ask about COAL. With the COAL info, you can determine using you're own comparator (which also can have significant difference in measurement than mine) to determine the seating depth configuration of my cartridge.
Hmmm??? So, what would you say is the standard freebore length in a .308 chamber?
From all that I've read in the past, there is no one standard freebore length. And depending on the anticipated bullets to be used in a particular chamber, the freebore can be a long a .180". Which I'd guess you'd classify as "a non-standard chamber"?
We gotta keep in mind too that our two barrels, even if the started out exactly the same freebore, can have very different freebores now due to throat erosion. It was monitoring my throat erosion that show me how little importance distance to the hands is compared to seating depth. Like I started with a very good load for my .308 that was ~.010 off the lands and after 2,000 rounds, having not changed the CBTO for all that time, it was still shooting great though the throat had eroded to where it was now off the lands by ~.043". Finding a seating depth that performs well and ignoring distance to the lands as the throat erodes is the way to go.
Though I'll point out I was using a bullet that's more tolerant to jump than ELDM's. I just don't like using bullets with secant ogives for that reason. But if I were to do so, I'd start at .010" off the lands and work in a little closer to find a good result. . . .assuming you're not trying to keep within mag length.
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What I have found in more than one barrel of mine was that the ELD-M didn't shoot but around MOA (or even worse) until I hit a particular depth... then it shot very well across a decent charge weight range.
Other barrels were certainly less picky.
I'd probably find a velocity you were comfortable with, and then test in .010 - .015 increments.
Never used the 155 but used a lot of other ELDs and they shot great at factory length jumping up to around .090” in some calibers and I load at .020” off and it works for me. Try pushing them in a little deeper.
Varget. H4350 is too slow. Just can’t get enough velocity out of it in 308 with 175’s
Had a student a couple of weeks ago running those in 308, mag length and was doing very well to a 1000 yards
Fir those interested, I found this with regards to bullet jump. The testers used 6mm, but I'm hoping the results translate to .308 as well.
shortactioncustoms.com
Seems like a good place to start would be around 40 thou, going further in 10 thou increments.
Bullet Jump Research
shortactioncustoms.com
Seems like a good place to start would be around 40 thou, going further in 10 thou increments.
I had read what was published at the website they linked to (Precision Rifle Blog) back when it was published in 2020. The data was very interesting to me, but the testing referring to "bullet jump" bothered me as there was no mention the relationship to seating depth. This makes it confusing as to what's really involved and having the most effect, bullet jump or seating depth.Fir those interested, I found this with regards to bullet jump. The testers used 6mm, but I'm hoping the results translate to .308 as well.
Bullet Jump Research
Seems like a good place to start would be around 40 thou, going further in 10 thou increments.
Whether one focuses on bullet jump or seating depth, when one is changed, so is the other. But the things involved with with bullet jump (what's happening between the bullet and the lands) is very different from what's happening as the bullet is released and exits the mouth of the case.
If you start by seating your bullet with a .010" jump and don't change the seating depth as the chamber's throat erodes .030", you then have a .040" jump. And during that time, there's been no change performance of the cartridges. But, if you take that "seating depth" when you started at .010" jump and change the seating depth my .030" (meaning the bullet is now .030" deeper into the case), you find a significant change in the cartridges performance.
I've actually tested this in my .308 over 2,000 rounds fired where my throat eroded ~.033" having started with ~.010" jump" and good load that was developed. Having kept the seating depth and the load the same, wound up being .043" off the lands, I was still getting great results on target. Apparently, the amount of jump wasn't making any difference (yet, anyway). But when I change the seating depth by just a few thousandths (much less than .033"), changes in the cartridges performance become very obvious.
On several occasions, I've listened to top champion shooters (bench rest and F-Class) mention when they've done load development for a new barrel and found a powder and seating depth that works well, they don't change anything for the life of the barrel even though the throat erodes during that life time. Taking their comments like this long with that test I did, I can only conclude that bullet jump just can't be as important as seating depth. And the two should not be confused as being the same thing.
I point this out because when I started precision reloading, this was confusing to me giving what those top shooters were stating. And that confusion is what let me to my little test over 2,000 rounds fired. And it's why an article my experience riflemen like this bugs me when it talks about bullet jump when they're really talking about seating depth. I guess you can say it's become a pet peeve of mine.
I loaded up the new 174 gr ELD-VD in hybrid cases.
The velocity was 3139 fps, with 3806 ft/ lbs of muzzle energy.
1000yd ballistics: 1720 fps, 1143 ft/lbs 22.5 moa drop, 64.6 inches of drift in 10 mph cross wind.
Mag length for MDT 308 mags.
Fired in the 30" heavy palma 8 twist 308 Win today.
The velocity was 3139 fps, with 3806 ft/ lbs of muzzle energy.
1000yd ballistics: 1720 fps, 1143 ft/lbs 22.5 moa drop, 64.6 inches of drift in 10 mph cross wind.
Mag length for MDT 308 mags.
Fired in the 30" heavy palma 8 twist 308 Win today.
