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Rifle Scopes Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Twisted

Twisted

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 12, 2009
508
1
46
NW Oregon
www.twistedfirearms.com
So I will be mounting a Leupy Mark 4 in some Seekins rings on my Remington 700 in a week or so. I don't have a torque driver so is it possible to gauge it fairly close without? I am familiar with torque wrenching and I think I could guess pretty dang close but does anyone have any tips that I'm unaware of to get them close with a wrench? Or is there a semi inexpensive one that you guys prefer?

And what about lapping? I'm aware of what it is and have a mechanical idea of the concept but don't know the best way to do it. Is there a tool I can buy to do it myself? Is it really that important to do? I've never done it to any of my rifles in the past, and doubt many people do, but I'm trying to put this rifle together as "correct" as I can.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

If I did not have someone local to help me do mine here in a few weeks, I would be picking up some feeler guages and a Fat Wrench.

You can look through my posts to see the discussion which will likely answer all your questions. It was just a week or so ago.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

you can buy a wheeler scope mounting kit for about $100 lapping bar and torque "fat wrench" along with some other attachments. You can also buy the lapping bars out of brownells and some cheap warne torque wrenches.

With that being said I dont lap rings. If you buy quality you really should not have to, but to each his own. Do as you feel led.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Using a torx or allen wrench, holding the long driver blade on the screw. Your max torque value will be about 18 inch pounds, probably less. That is a good value for the ring cap screws. Use the short driver to snug your scope base. With the long driver end to snug with, you should get about 35-40 inch pounds which is about right for scope base tension.

Sears sells a decent inch pound torque wrench. A good investment unless you want a much nicer tool and can drop $150 or more.

You don't need to lap your rings.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

The first time you use a torque wrench, you'll be surprised at how LITTLE effort it takes to get to 20 inch pounds. I can usually get there using only my thumb and index finger.

On lapping, every time I lap a set of rings and see the pattern left behind, it convinces me of the value of having a perfectly straight and true scope mounting platform. It's not necessarily the rings that are causing the misalignment... bases and actions can both suffer from "tolerance stack."

I'd at least try lapping a time or two before making the decision that <span style="font-style: italic">"you don't need it."</span>
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping?

Not all rings need to be lapped. You can tell if they need it. Set your rings up with the proper torque on the hex nuts. With the ring top halves off, of coarse, gently set your scope in the rings. It should not bind or stick in the rings. It should drop right in and you should be able to move it around gently without leaving any marks on the tube. Check the rings for any raised place or digs before you set the scope in them. There shouldn't be any present on High quality rings.

GC
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping?

When I finally converted to getting a torque wrench I checked my rings/mounts what I found was that I was pretty good at getting them a similar value but that value varied a lot and most times it was too much (I am a somewhat recovering ham fist, me and eazy outs have a close relationship). I think it's probalby an advantage to have as even a clamping force as you can get on the rings for sure, and the torque wrench allows that.

I think it's well worth the $100 for the midway lapping bar and fat torque wrench kit. That being said my fat wrench is about 5lbs heavier than the indicator (20in/lb on the dial is really 25) Honestly I don't think the 5lbs is going to be the difference between stripping or breaking something.

As to lapping the rings, I like to at least use the kit to verify they are strait. If they are strait and if the scope sits nice in them as Max100 said and I know they are good quality rings (NF/Seekins/Badger) I usually leave them alone. If they are lower quality I lap them. I'm not sure there's any downside to lapping the higher quality ones aside I suppose you would remove some of the rust protective coating on steel rings, and you could remove too much material but I think you'd really have to go to town on most rings to do that.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping?

Sinclair sells a lapping kit which is nice.
I picked up a inch pound torque screwdriver on e-bay for twenty bucks. Only goes to 25 inch pounds but is great for ring caps. Checked it at my local machine shop, and it's right on.
When you buy torque wrenches for gun related operations make sure you buy INCH POUND.

Danny
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Twisted; I just finished mounting a MK4 base and Seekins rings on a Rem 700. I bought the FAT torque wrench. Just for the hell of it I tried the using the small end of the torx wrench in your fingers to set the ring caps in place. I then used to FAT wrench set at 15in/lbs, to check my results, guess what? It was just as many here have posted, 15in/lbs.

For the ring to base nut, snug and 90 degrees from there. Should get you to the required 55-65in/lbs. You don't have to use a torque wrench, but at $39 from MIDWAY why not? Either way works.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Thanks for all the advice guys. Just to be confident with the mount I ordered the Wheel Fat wrench with the alignment and lapping tools for 1" and 30mm scopes. It comes as a complete kit and with my account on Midway it was only like $85 for everything. I figure this way I can not worry about this setup and any I do in the future. This is by far the most I have invested into optics so I don't want to skimp anywhere.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Jake,

If your receiver is somewhat true, you will probably be ok w/o lapping the rings. Place the optic in the bottom half of the rings and see if it rotates side-to-side. I would invest in a $5 set of feeler gauges and follow the below linked instructions.
For the torque setting on the ring caps, use the thumb and first finger to tighten with the small end of the wrench. All should be GTG.

http://www.snipershide.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=25
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Cheap insurance is checking ring alignment with a lapping bar. I've owned more than a few Remingtons that either had the mount holes drilled and tapped so far out of line that only two holes of a one piece base would line up, or so far off height front to back that I went with the Burris live center rings rather than try to use that much shim.

Not too impressed with the various scope alignment tools which would mainly make sense using Redfield style adjustable windage mounts and I don't use tham anyhow and with standard rings if they're off you'll be lapping regardless so just spend a few buck on a lapping bar.

And if mounting a high dollar scope (Nightforce, US Optics, S&B etc., only a moron wouldn't check the setup.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

like a high end scope is gonna be ruined by putting it in rings? lol
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twisted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I will be mounting a Leupy Mark 4 in some Seekins rings on my Remington 700 in a week or so. I don't have a torque driver so is it possible to gauge it fairly close without? I am familiar with torque wrenching and I think I could guess pretty dang close but does anyone have any tips that I'm unaware of to get them close with a wrench? Or is there a semi inexpensive one that you guys prefer?

And what about lapping? I'm aware of what it is and have a mechanical idea of the concept but don't know the best way to do it. Is there a tool I can buy to do it myself? Is it really that important to do? I've never done it to any of my rifles in the past, and doubt many people do, but I'm trying to put this rifle together as "correct" as I can. </div></div>
I find this difficult to say without sounding condescending, but is this the first set of Seekins rings you've used? You do not need to lap Seekins rings. They are precision machined to precise dimensions and, properly tightened will hold your scope firmly without slippage. Further, as Seekins rings are chamferred along the edges your scope won't get "ring bite" and suffer ring marks. This is more than I can say for some very well-made, very popular, very well thought-of steel rings often seen on tactical rifles.

Do you really think that you will get a more precise scope-to-ring fit by spinning a steel bar and abrasive compound inside the rings? Don't waste your time or effort lapping your Seekins.

Keith
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Wow, I feel like I've stuck a stick into a bee hive and stirred it up.

Yes, these are my first Seekins rings. It is also my first bolt rifle. The current optics are in Burris XTR rings and they have treated me well but decided it was time to upgrade. (took all of 3 weeks to make that decision)

I can understand both sides of the argument but one thing everyone can agree on is that lapping and torquing can't hurt any so no harm in just doing it. If anything for the peace of mind that there is no undue stress on parts and such.

And just for the record, I did go through a break in process on the rifle too. Not cause I really believed it was necessary but I can't believe that it would hurt anything.

smile.gif


Thanks again for all the help guys.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

here is what Glen Seekins said in another thread "keep in mind you can make things worse by lapping, and most do..."

that wouldn't give me peace of mind if i felt compelled to lap

 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Quick piggy back on your thread (sorry).... but my Badger 20MOA for my LTR came with 3 longer screws and one shorter one. Where does the shorter one go?
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

the hole closest to the muzzle of the rifle. that is a blind hole.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the hole closest to the muzzle of the rifle. that is a blind hole. </div></div>

what is a blind hole? Does not seem like it would reach, haha. We shall see once I get my rifle in I guess.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

the blind hole does not go all the way through the metal. that hole is above the chamber of the rifle and the screw hole ends at the barrel threads.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find this difficult to say without sounding condescending, but is this the first set of Seekins rings you've used? You do not need to lap Seekins rings. They are precision machined to precise dimensions and, properly tightened will hold your scope firmly without slippage.</div></div>

It is not the precision of the rings in question, it is the precision of the drilled holes in the receiver. If they are not drilled straight, and they NEVER are on a production rifle, the scope base will twist when it is tightened down.

Bedding the base will go a long way toward alleviating this if it is also a precision product.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

I really don't understand what some people just do not see.
As in the above post, it's probably not the rings in questions.
It is normally the holes or in the case of a Remington, the
contour machining of the rear of the action that is off. If you get a nice straight 1 piece base and put it on and bed it, you
can get by with a quality set of rings without lapping. I put a base that was straight and made correctly on a 700 and when tightened down the centerline of each ring was not even close
to each other. I had to put .022 thousandths of shims under the rear of the base to get the rings to line up. Kinda hard to fix that. But not hurting a high price scope....Well you can put drag marks in your tubes finish if you want
smile.gif

The best instructions I have seen yet, actually come from
Farrell with his bases. I'll see if I can get a copy of them
on the post. Basically, you apply release agent to the action,
rough up the bottom of the base, apply bedding to bottom of base
and tighten the inside screws. Just engage the threads with the
outside screws enough to keep compound out of hole. Or you could
fill those holes with clay. So the front and rear screw are not
tightened, just the inside screws. This gives you metal to metal
on front and rear of bases. The steel bed will take care of the rest. Let it cure, take it off and trim up the excess. Install it with all 4 screws. Put a quality set of rings on that, and
yes there will be no use for lapping. I still check it. Everybody
makes a bad part once in a while. I remember checking some TPS
rings on John Boyettes rifle here in the shop. I checked his base
with a ground flat edge and .001 feeler guage. It was straight.
The scope would not even set in the rings. We took turns lapping them in.

 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Everyone should read the article in the Dec 2008 Rifleman regarding scope mounting. Garth Kendig at Leupold and others in the optics industry give some great insights and tips for us to use.

I sure as hell wouldn't ream a set of rings after reading that article.

Page 54 of the Dec 2008 Rifleman.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the blind hole does not go all the way through the metal. that hole is above the chamber of the rifle and the screw hole ends at the barrel threads.
</div></div>

Thank you
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Yeah, generally the rings and a good base are fine and as others have said rarely do you have an issue with them not being strait. In fact I don't now if I've ever seen a set that were off that were over the $50 price range. Usually the Remington receiver is not done right, or the holes are wrong, or both.

Bedding the mount helps with this, but I've seen several methods for bedding the rail. To me If you truly want a true rail that is unstressed you can't use a tight screw on the front and back of the rail even if it's just the inside screws, I certainly bow to Farrell's knowledge but I see no real difference in tightening 4 screws -vs- 2 screws if you are going to tighten things. I can see wanting to get metal to metal contact on both sides, but if the screws are off or the receiver is not ground flat, you are still twisting the rail (probably not as much as doing all four) by tightening the front and rear inside screws.

When I have done it I've usually checked to see which side wants to sit with a gap and bedded for that gap using only one screw snug. For example I'll tighten the front outside screw and see if the rear is off the receiver, if not I'll loosen that screw and try the front inside screw. If neither give a gap I'll try the same on the rear of the rail. Looking for which screw (if any) give good metal to metal contact and a gap on the other opp. side. Once I've found that screw I bed using only that screw snug, and the other three screws are just installed in order to align the base and keep epoxy out of the holes. It's a lot longer process, but to me if you tighten any two screws on the rail, even on the same end, you can be twisting/torquing the rail. On the same note I like to bed for the gap because then you know the stress is off the rest of the rail and you aren't bending the rail anywhere down to the receiver.

The downside I guess is you have less metal to metal contact, but with how thin the layer of steel bed is and how non-compressible and the fact the rail is not being uninstalled and reinstalled I don't think it's an issue I'd rather shoot for a more stress free rail.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

They have been installed without a torque wrench for a long time.
You don't need to kill it.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

The quality of scope rings and bases has really increased in recent years. To say that a quality set of rings does not need lapping because it it so carefully made it doesn't need it is true only if it is connected to a <span style="text-decoration: underline">perfectly true</span> base and a <span style="font-style: italic">perfectly true</span> receiver. Nowadays warped receivers are quite common. A set of <span style="text-decoration: underline">perfectly true</span> rings attached to a warped receiver will <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span><span style="text-decoration: underline"> be true</span>!!! I took training in the testing and adjustment of surveying instruments and used them in ultra high grade survey work for many years. I made my living for those many years with mathematics. I know my way around optics testing and mounting and mathematics very well. Mounting a rifle scope to a rifle is a very simple task compared to doing the necessary adjustments to get a transit to work correctly. (You need to have at least eleven different adjustments all in coincidence at the same time to achieve success and you must achieve identical results three times before you make any correction to the existing adjustment.<span style="text-decoration: underline"> By the way the pointed scope alignment bars on the market absolutely do not work.</span> They cannot tell you anything about axial alignment, it's mathematically impossible!! There is one missing element to solve the geometrical problem of axial alignment. Can't be done! The points can be brought together at any angle in the vertical or horizontal planes up to 90 degrees and will not in any way tell you when the axes of the bars are in coincidence. There is only one tool on the market for testing the alignment of scope rings/bases/receivers that truly works. This tool has the missing element built in. It has been on the market since 1995 and you can read about it at www.kokopelliproducts.com If you want a proper scope installation you have to test all components, receiver, bases and rings. You cannot assume all are adequate just because one component in the mix is of super high quality. <span style="font-weight: bold">You must test the entire installation and bring all elements into proper alignment!!</span> New spark plugs in your car's engine will not fix a plugged carburetor or a broken crankshaft, nor will perfectly made rings compensate for poor bases or a bent receiver.!! Test all the parts and then you will know what you have. If you neglect one element you only have guesswork.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

How much? A sliding sleeve over the bars would be nice for those having troubles see up close. Sort of like a go-no go guage. If the sleeve would not slid over the joints,its a no-go,out of aligment. Thanks.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Kokopelli sells lapping bars?

Do I finally have a focal point for my anger against the ring lapping silliness?

I can understand a pair of twist in rings being sacrificed to the lapping bar, but to wreck a perfectly good pair of Weaver rings with lapping, when the mounts can be glass bedded, pisses me off.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Wow, I didn't think a simple question would turn into such a discussion. Good thing I didn't ask about breaking in a rifle.
smile.gif


If it matters at all to the discussion, my new scope arrived today and I mounted it up in my new Seekins rings. I did lap them and after seeing the pattern on the finish of the rings from doing so I'm sold on lapping. Not sure how it could really hurt anything if done correctly.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

I find it interesting that nobody has metioned bedding the rings. I've done this twice using JB Weld and release agent on the scope. I generally pop the scope out and trim the excess expoxy after a 6-8 hours of curing time.

This brings even relatively cheap rings to a custom fit with nearly 100% of the lower ring surface area providing a gripping surface.

Lapping is great if you assume that the scope tube is perfectly straight. Bedding the rings doesn't require a perfect scope, perfect rings, or a perfect base.

Curious to hear if anyone has found a downside to bedding rings.

--Rootshot
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

Lapping is only the last resort to get proper alignment of all the components involved in a scope installation. It's the last possible solution if interchanging of components, bedding, etc do not effect the needed corrections. All I'm saying is that you cannot assume that you will have a proper install just because you bought quality parts. There are always machining tolerances to deal with and they can stack up for you or against you regardless of quality. Testing all components is the only solution to a good scope installation. I've tuned up and adjusted more than one or two of the finest Swiss made theodolites in my career.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Curious to hear if anyone has found a downside to bedding rings.</div></div>

I have not bedded the rings to the scope tube, other than a piece of tape.

That would work, but have problem similar to lapping:
a) Rings married to the rifle's mount error.

It would have another unique problem:
a) If the rings are not over sized in inside diameter, there is not enough room to fully compensate for the mount to receiver fit error.

The easier solutions that let a scope with rings move from rifle to rifle without a bind on the scope tube:
1) Burris Signature rings
2) Use one piece Weaver mounts
3) Glass bed Weaver two piece to the receiver while fixtured to be co planer and parallel or 20moa from parallel to the bore, so a center adjusted scope and rings can be attached in a minute and be on the paper.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twisted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I will be mounting a Leupy Mark 4 in some Seekins rings on my Remington 700 in a week or so.</div></div>

Best inexpensive solution: Craftsman in/lb Torque Wrench
Cheap: Harbor Freight
Best: Borka Tools Torque Driver

Invest in the right tools and you will be satisfied knowing you did the job correctly.

YES you can get it done with just regular hand tools. I have done it before in the field and it works, but I have mounted more than a couple scopes in my time. If for some reason you decide to do it without the proper tools, when mounting ring caps, hold the short end of the allen or torx key. The long end goes in the screw. This will limit the amount of force you can use. It doesn't take much to break a screw or strip the threads.

I don't lap high end rings. I make sure the base is mounted correctly and true.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aoW5bHQqgis&hd=1"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aoW5bHQqgis&hd=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

It might be in your best interest to watch the rest of the series as well.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The little FAT wrench works pretty well. I doubt it is super accurate, but it is sufficient. I like mine. </div></div>

Actually, if yours was like mine it came with a quality control calibration/ check card. Mine was within 1-2 in.lbs. That might not be precision, but for a handheld that is fairly accurate.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A14</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The little FAT wrench works pretty well. I doubt it is super accurate, but it is sufficient. I like mine. </div></div>

Actually, if yours was like mine it came with a quality control calibration/ check card. Mine was within 1-2 in.lbs. That might not be precision, but for a handheld that is fairly accurate. </div></div>

Just curios - is this 1-2 inch-lbs. deviation shown in calibration paper of your FAT wrench applicable to ANY setting between 10 and 65 inch-lbs.?
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A14</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The little FAT wrench works pretty well. I doubt it is super accurate, but it is sufficient. I like mine. </div></div>

Actually, if yours was like mine it came with a quality control calibration/ check card. Mine was within 1-2 in.lbs. That might not be precision, but for a handheld that is fairly accurate. </div></div>

Just curios - is this 1-2 inch-lbs. deviation shown in calibration paper of your FAT wrench applicable to ANY setting between 10 and 65 inch-lbs.?
</div></div>

Yeah, the card had all the settings listed by a number and a blank line beside it. Then has a setting written via pen by a QC person. All of mine were +/- 2 in.lbs.

Edit: just looked at mine and it has 10,30,60.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

I have lapped too many rings during years. They are never perfectly alligned, and some really bad.
One easy fool-proof system is Sako/Tikka Optilock. There is another manufacturer using same design, cant remember which one from top of my head.

One piece mount generally reduces error, but I think allignment should be checked anyway since reciever may bend it.
 
Re: Mounting a scope with torque drivers? Lapping???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kokopelli</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline"> By the way the pointed scope alignment bars on the market absolutely do not work.</span> They cannot tell you anything about axial alignment, it's mathematically impossible!! There is one missing element to solve the geometrical problem of axial alignment. Can't be done! The points can be brought together at any angle in the vertical or horizontal planes up to 90 degrees and will not in any way tell you when the axes of the bars are in coincidence.</div></div>

I appreciate your insight, and that you have brought out another product to help determine ring alignment. But, those pointed ring alignment tools work fine if used properly.

It is true that if you simply mount the pointed alignment tools in the rings and find the points in coincidence at a single given position that you are not getting the whole story, as you indicated regarding the possibility of an arched or bent mount. However, if you slide the tools first to the front and check, then to the rear to check, if the points are in coincidence along the whole range then the rings are straight and true.
 
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