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Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Kestrel integration is not the key, it's nice to have but not the key.

The integration of the laser range finder is not the key, it's nice to have and helps streamline the process, but it's not key.

The same with the GPS, although designating targets and being able to recall them is good, it's not key. </div></div>Agreed 100%.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Godbullet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok what is a kestel? I am new at all of this. Are you saying FFS can connect to a scope? Or does it have a mounting device to the scope/rifle? </div></div>OP, you don't need $2000 worth of program and vehicle yet. Spend the money learning to shoot and getting experience.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I use shooter on my droid. Great program, uses G1 and G7 bc has a great bullet library on and on. It is only $10
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Thanks Eaglet,

I noticed the software is not transferable (Cold bore). I'll have to decide what PC I have at home that is going to live the longest. Also means I need to make sure what ever PDA I decide on is in good enough shape to last a while.

I do think I'll give this a try. Seems like a good product. And I can just about justify the cost by looking at the number of FDAC cards I'd need to buy for different cal/bullets. Especially considering one never knows what gun will show up in the safe next!
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

there is also a compatibility matrix card for a FDAC..
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there is also a compatibility matrix card for a FDAC.. </div></div>

Davide,

The FDAC is never going to be as customizable as tables made with CB1 ...

Moreover, in CB1 DA tables can be made including any correction ... in FDAC you're limited to what the manufacturer wants ... and you decide if "is close enough" to your setup, "rifle / sight / load" ...
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Looks like I am going to be switching to AT&T from Verizon if my wife gets her way. That means I will be going to a damn Iphone. Sucks because for the shooting that I do here in MI it works perfect for me. So time to find a new one I guess.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricF517</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like I am going to be switching to AT&T from Verizon if my wife gets her way. That means I will be going to a damn Iphone. Sucks because for the shooting that I do here in MI it works perfect for me. So time to find a new one I guess.</div></div>

Why does going to an iPhone suck? There's a couple good ballistic programs for iPhone that will do what you need it to do.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

nothing to say about CB1 and FFS...you can do what you want, but there are also people unable to use any software or JBM online, and FDAC with compatibility matrix will be the way to go..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eaglet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there is also a compatibility matrix card for a FDAC.. </div></div>

Davide,

The FDAC is never going to be as customizable as tables made &#8203;&#8203;with CB1 ...

Moreover, in CB1 DA tables can be made including any correction ... in FDAC you're limited to what the manufacturer wants ... and you decide if "is close enough" to your setup, "rifle / sight / load" ...</div></div>
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

LOL, sounds spoken by someone in which their life revolves around the iphone.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricF517</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like I am going to be switching to AT&T from Verizon if my wife gets her way. That means I will be going to a damn Iphone. Sucks because for the shooting that I do here in MI it works perfect for me. So time to find a new one I guess.</div></div>

Why does going to an iPhone suck? There's a couple good ballistic programs for iPhone that will do what you need it to do. </div></div>

Because I love my Droid and hate the wife's Iphone.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I liked what I read on the CB1 are you all saying it is par with or superior to the FFS and Horus on the Kestel?
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

grin.gif


The argument that will never die..... Iphone vs Droid.

They are the SAME operating system. One is locked one is not.

Linux/Unix/IOS they are all a flavor of unix...

At least its not based on a Microsoft product...

RFC (Running for cover....)


Cheers
Dave
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Godbullet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I liked what I read on the CB1 are you all saying it is par with or superior to the FFS and Horus on the Kestel?
</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Kestrel related information for those interested.</span>

If any of the information I present below is not right, please
by all means correct me since we only want to present the
readers with truthful information that can be of help.

The two screen shots below say LB3 but they would be identical to
<span style="font-weight: bold">CB1.0</span>

zmbl09.jpg


From my collected information, it goes like this:

The differences between CB1 and FFS MOBILE Kestrel are huge ... just as with GPS.

· Units are automatically decoded and parsed.

· No need for the user to indicate what units is the Kestrel® working with.

· Each module (ANALYZER, BALLISTICS and LOGBOOK) receiving the data does not need to change any units. In fact, the user can use the Kestrel® with units that are different of those set in the modules.

· The data stream is sampled at a rate of 1000 milliseconds.

· Multithreading programming for real-time performance and no UI degradation.

· The user does not need, after pairing the PDA with the Kestrel®, to “select and try” any data port.

· Detection and selection is automatically performed by the program.
_______________________________________

To give you an idea, FFS, the connection must be done manually and the units of measurements of the Kestrel, should be set by hand ... Since FFS does not know what units each measurement comes in!

For example, if the temperature setting of the Kestrel is in Celsius and FFS is in Fahrenheit ... If you don't realize it, you will receive a FALSE information ... that simple.

The FFS user must tell the program that the temperature value is in Fahrenheit ... and so with the rest of the measurements. Which is annoying and obviously leading to significant errors.

In CB1 MOBILE, if the user changes the Kestrel units, automatically and in real time, the program displays the correct value with the correct units.

That and the "auto pairing" are unique to CB1 Mobile ... no other program can do that, nor closely.

Moreover, the HORUS ATRAG does not connect to the Kestrel.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I bought CB1 just to compare with FFS, actually I've an issue with the GPS info, the GPS works but didn't send the info to other field.. shooter position ecc ecc..... I don't know why..

for me this " The FFS user must tell the program that the temperature value is in Fahrenheit ... and so with the rest of the measurements. Which is annoying and obviously leading to significant errors "

is not a greater plus..... so my kestrel is set in metric units, FFS in my PDA also in metric.. no possibility to have issues or problems..... we have to recognize we are are working with program and PDA.... correct output with correct input....attention to details....

Nothing to say about CB1 solutions in practice the same of FFS... but I prefer FFS interface, and how info are displaied. but they are the 2 best softwares available.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

i have strelock ballistic app on my phone. Its free and has a ton of reticles. Adding more all the time. Have yet to really run it through its paces but seems fairly close to about 300m.

-polarcow
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

And considering the MET data changes at such a slow pace, who even cares if the Kestrel BT connects at all? I never use it, I just check conditions every hour or two and update the cpule fields that might have changed. It's unsecured RF and a battery drain that serves no purpose that I can see.

The important feature is LRF/GPS integration, where you can set your position and create TRP's with their position and firing solution with the press of a button.

I could not care less if the BT Kestrel existed. There may well be some use for it, but ballistic computer integration is not it.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I agree with Cory.. I do the same things..
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought CB1 just to compare with FFS, actually I've an issue with the GPS info, the GPS works but didn't send the info to other field.. shooter position ecc ecc..... I don't know why..

<span style="color: #3333FF">The issue is, if the GPS signal does not have sufficient quality (determined by the program), the signal is rejected and therefore does not support to be passed to any of the tabs (Mapping and Targeting), simply to avoid having calculations based on low-quality signals, which obviously would give you miscalculations.
Since the signals are taken every 1 second, it is rare that a second later, the parser of the GPS signal is detected low quality ... that is why we must wait until the signs are stable and above a certain quality.
The GPS module for TARGETING, is not intended for general use.</span>

for me this " The FFS user must tell the program that the temperature value is in Fahrenheit ... and so with the rest of the measurements. Which is annoying and obviously leading to significant errors "

is not a greater plus..... so my kestrel is set in metric units, FFS in my PDA also in metric.. no possibility to have issues or problems..... we have to recognize we are are working with program and PDA.... correct output with correct input....attention to details....

<span style="color: #3333FF">The problem with FFS is that without the user noticing,it lets go though, without a filter, ALL signs, regardless of whether they are good or poor quality ..... which is something BAD.</span>

Nothing to say about CB1 solutions in practice the same of FFS... but I prefer FFS interface, and how info are displaied. but they are the 2 best softwares available.
</div></div>

Good Shooting!
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

" The issue is, if the GPS signal does not have sufficient quality (determined by the program), the signal is rejected and therefore does not support to be passed to any of the tabs (Mapping and Targeting), simply to avoid having calculations based on low-quality signals, which obviously would give you miscalculations.
Since the signals are taken every 1 second, it is rare that a second later, the parser of the GPS signal is detected low quality ... that is why we must wait until the signs are stable and above a certain quality.
The GPS module for TARGETING, is not intended for general use. "

No...I do not agree, my Targeting resolutions.. are non intended for general use, in my NOMAD I've 2 gps modules the internal GPS ( very good ) and a second one from Hemiphere mounted on COM3.....( very accurate HDOP and VDOP often ideal 1 depending on gps signal ) so with this 2 GPS and with a PLRF 10 C connected using a cable with trigger control I can have with a simple press a target coordinates till 2600 meters with a very good accuracy, I've checked what I do going to target location and also with google earth....... FFS gps module and targeting are very accurate.... if I use CB1 in manual mode with the input required to have a targeting solution I've the same results....... I'm driving crazy because I'm not able to get a signal from my 2 gps to CB1..

this is what I do, FFP with HDOP and VDOP with ideal 1 for DOP values....after with a PLRF 10 C connected I get distance, bearing and slant values, FFS use true bearing ( off course ) to have targets coordinates... I did these test several times... after this I check on my panasonic CF19 the position of target with google earth and after on the way back to home I check again by person going to the target position.....
The accuracy sometimes is sub meter , other times 6/7 meters so quite enough...

landscape

GELS.png


target at 1844 meters.. targeting solutions dead on
MC182GE.png


picture of the target

MC182GE1.png


target at 1847 ...FFS give me an off set of 4,61 meters
MC182GE.png


MC185.png


target at 2116 gas signal...dead on

MC18.png


2116.jpg


may be possibile to have sub cm accuracy with other very expensive GPS......but I think what I can do with FFS gps module and FFS targeting is OK...

now I've to understand why CB gps doesn't work in my Nomad... but when I'll be able to use it.....I've to put data like bearing, slant distance ecc ecc in manual mode.........so a little bit different considering what I do with FFS... everythings in automatic....1 click, 1 solution.....

good shooting to you
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Davide,

I enjoyed those screencaptures/pics. I could only dream about
using a Vectronix PLRF 10...
grin.gif


What you say you do with FFS is what you do with CB1.

It's possible some little something is being overseen. E-mail Patagonia Ballistics, they are
awesome at costumer service. I'm sure they'll be glad to help.

It is possible that since you have 2 GPS on your PDA, you did not properly set starting what you're using?

I don't know of anyone using LB3.0 having any problems with them functions. They ran perfectly well. Should be

the same with CB1.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

already done.. but at present time I've got more or less the same thing you wrote.. I've use only 1 gps at time...but I don't know why CB1 is not able to see it......

some more pictures..this is my perfect location to check FFS targeting accuracy..

P5020030.jpg


P5020014.jpg


DSCN4058.jpg


DSCN4025.jpg


DSCN3984.jpg


DSCN3967.jpg
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Sir what are you asking for the software?
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 8541Gunnery</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sir what are you asking for the software?</div></div>

You can purchase a copy of Field Firing Solutions here —

http://www.precisionworkbench.com/

You can purchase a copy of ColdBore 1.0 here —

http://www.patagoniaballistics.com/feat_int.html
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

What Coldbore is missing the the LRF interface.

With the GPS/Targeting system in Colbore, you must KNOW the location of the targets, or go to the target and mark it with the GPS.

With FFS, you sync your location to the GPS, then laze the target. Entry is made automatically onto the target card, you now have the target grid location and firing solution.

Coldbore has other features that FFS does not, but for field use I'm running FFS, some analytical stuff and desktop work is done in Coldbore.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Coldbore is missing the the LRF interface.

With the GPS/Targeting system in Colbore, you must KNOW the location of the targets, or go to the target and mark it with the GPS.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Not according to the manual.
</span>
With FFS, you sync your location to the GPS, then laze the target. Entry is made automatically onto the target card, you now have the target grid location and firing solution.

<span style="color: #3333FF">It is EXACTLY the same in CB1 ... the only difference is that the distance must be entered manually, as CB1, for the moment ... has no input from the LRF.</span>

Coldbore has other features that FFS does not, but for field use I'm running FFS, some analytical stuff and desktop work is done in Coldbore. </div></div>
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

you right, you can enter manually all the data.... but is an ass pain, with FFS with less then half second I can have all I want, solution and target coordiantes....same accuracy of CB1, target coordinates speaking... but I've to put manually all the data.

ok some screen shoots..

FFS GPS start from cold start in 23 second, position get with Ideal 1 for HDOP and VDOP ( maximum accuracy )

FFSIDEAL1.jpg


now CB1 start

in about 20 second I get these 2 pages, but continuosly blinking between numbers and N/A

CB11.jpg


CB12.jpg


what I'm not able to understand and why with the gps connected I've an older date......

CB13.jpg


others screen shoots always with GPS connected

CB14.jpg


CB17.jpg


CB15.jpg


if I go the other page this is what I get

CB16.jpg


So finally I do not understand why the CB1 gps module doesn't work and the FFS gps module works very well... with hemiphere GPS on COM 3 or with the internal nomad gps on COM2....FFS gps module it seem to be able to receive more sat signals....

I've do this test in different places...always with same results....




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eaglet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Coldbore is missing the the LRF interface.



With the GPS/Targeting system in Colbore, you must KNOW the location of the targets, or go to the target and mark it with the GPS.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Not according to the manual.
</span>
With FFS, you sync your location to the GPS, then laze the target. Entry is made automatically onto the target card, you now have the target grid location and firing solution.

<span style="color: #3333FF">It is EXACTLY the same in CB1 ... the only difference is that the distance must be entered manually, as CB1, for the moment ... has no input from the LRF.</span>

Coldbore has other features that FFS does not, but for field use I'm running FFS, some analytical stuff and desktop work is done in Coldbore. </div></div></div></div>
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Gentlemen,

Let's see...

Last night I was reading manuals till I fell asleep looking at the screen... lol

We need to understand the following: CB1.0 does not interface with Vectronisx PLRF 10
as of now, but eventually <span style="font-weight: bold">it will</span> according to an email from Patagonia Ballistics. CB1.0 still
allows the user to enter data manually if there is no other way. Having your GPS interfacing correctly
with the PDA coordinates for the shooter's position are at hand, in the mapping tab, <span style="text-decoration: underline">you can just enter an
azimuth and a distance and CB1.0 will calculate the targets' coordinates.</span>
My thinking says that perhaphs 97% of people will not be able to afford a PLRF me included; though I would
love to have one. So when CB1.0 gets to interface with PLRF it will really not mean much to me. So to get
my targets' coordinates I'll be entering two values 1) Distance to the targets 2) Azimuths to the targets. CB1.0
will do the rest for me.

With that said and undestood, the following is true when using a GPS

· Davide's particular problem seems to be pretty unic since no other folks that I know of have had the problem ...
I emailed Patagonia and they have not had reports of this problem. I merely was trying to see what's going on...

· No need to manually enter ANYTHING ...

· CB1.0, however, is designed to allow manual entry of data, if you have to go that way

· There are many cases where data must be entered manually, for example to make calculations offline

. CB1 handles 72 ellipsoides ... very powerful feature ...

Good shooting to all!
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I'm also in touch with Patagonia to have this issue solved...
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

You can enter the data into FFS manually as well. For a casual user, that's no big deal.

The additional ellipsoids could be nice for some, here in the US WGS84 is pretty much standard. Given the demand, it's a simple enough feature to add.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can enter the data into FFS manually as well. For a casual user, that's no big deal.

The additional ellipsoids could be nice for some, here in the US WGS84 is pretty much standard. Given the demand, <span style="font-weight: bold">it's a simple enough feature to add.</span> </div></div>

There is an old post that explains it well enough…FFS cannot do any other than WGS84

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1756622&page=2

<span style="color: #3333FF">"For the GPS functionality, I depend upon third party software, and it doesn't have the ability to change datums - or, at least the last time I dealt with the issue it didn't. They did come out with a subsequent major version release that may have added this functionality, but that company is now defunct. While I would like to have the ability to change datums, and at some point probably will, it is one of those things that will have to wait. If I change to the newer version of the GPS software, the change cause many, many parts of the software to break because the newer version was not backward compatible with what I am using”</span>

And I should add, that datum conversion is far from being trivial. It’s deep and complex coordinates transformation that requires heavy math. It’s <span style="font-weight: bold">clearly NOT</span> a “simple enough feature to add”

All in all, I don’t think that capability will be in FFS anytime soon…

In many countries, their maps (even the military ones) are based off other datums (ellipsoids) rather than WGS84

And since we are dealing with utmost accuracy here for targeting purposes, not having that option <span style="font-weight: bold">is quite an significant drawback.</span>

I have to agree with what Lowlight already said, having an LRF input is nice, but far from being critical.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

The third party software provides the datums, no math involved on Blaine's side. So, the datums themselves are no real problem, but changing to a new GPS driver is a bit of a PITA. Unless you are making a call for fire, or trying to match the location to a map, it's not really important. There are several programs that will convert from one datum to another, although that's certainly not the 'best' way to deal with it. It is on Blaine's list of things to do, but until there is a real demand for it, he's not that motivated to make the changes.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I said same things about map datum to Blaine about 1 years ago, I got same answer as Cory has written there...

FFS at presetn time is used by several Italian special forces sniper teams and also other military unit, WGS 84 covers at the moment what they need..

our UTM maps ( Italian ) are with Europe 1950 and Roma 1940 other map with WGS 84.

I talk with Blaine few days ago to have one new feature on my FFS Delta V... the possibility to copy and past the coordinate for FFP and target

with this fucntion is easy to import in other programs, for example I'm running Ozi esplorer CE ( the best in my opinion for navigation software ) the coordinates and after do the map datum change to convert the data..

I'm testing this beta fuction and at present time works great.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Killshot,

I've been using MD Ballistics on my iPhone with good results. The latest update they add a lot of scope mfg specs, calculations for Spin Drift, and Coriolis effect. It comes a with a good bullet library. Another plus is using your internet connection it will download all the weather data for the area your in. Then I use my Kestral to verify the weather info and double check the wind.

In all for $14 bucks it offers a lot of accurate info. Using it at the range, it gives me accurate dope for shooting steel targets varying from 275yds to 1020yds. Its not everything that FFS is but it works. Having a library of scope reticales you can also mill without adjusting your turrets.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

111mq12.jpg


It’s pretty clear that FFS will not have that critical capability anytime soon.

If we need to perform “real targeting”, including all the typical functions, for whatever reason, the software must be able to have a “built-in” ellipsoids conversion feature.

If not, it’s a drawback no matter how we name or disguise it.

Unless of course, we say that if a feature is not there, it’s because of some third party company that went out of business…

I don’t know how a “copy & paste” operation can be a realistic option in the field…especially when the operator needs to open and run another program for an ellipsoid conversion.

Can we call that “a solution” for a package as pricey as FFS?

If that is the way proposed by FFS, I will stick with CB1 which does that on the fly…at half the price even when purchasing the Desktop edition that syncs with the Mobile one.

Same for the lack of MGRS coordinates in FFS. As we all know, it’s the de facto standard for military use.

CB1 is in service with military units of seven countries, including the British Army (SAS & SBS among them)

Have all a great day!
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

are you sure about MGRS ?

transfer with copy/past to Ozi in back ground take more or less the same time you use to put manually the data in CB1.. may be I think you need more time...because you have to put the datas but before you have to take this data.. and how you take the data ?

range finder...measure, read and write..
angle... measure with slope dope, mild dot master, ACI..read and write..
compass....measure, read +/- MAG declination..write on the software..

FFS.. click wth remote control, read targeting solution ( olny WGS84 ) UTM or MGRS copy past and in may be 3 second I've all I want if I need, ozi has the most complete library about datum..

but with all the manual measures you have to do with CB1, range finder, slope and compass you introduce a lot of errors..
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

MGRS

MGRS.jpg


and all the data you need with a simple click and if I need to convert with and another datum with one click I can copy paste the data

copy.jpg


I say again nothing to say to CB1 solution is very accurate same of FFS..........but is not user friendly for field use....

from the primary page of FFS I have access to all the other pages ( several pages )...

example I want to range with reticle I can put the measure of my target in the field or I can use a library ( editable ) to copy the data...

after I accept the data and I've a solution..

reticle.jpg


reticlebody.jpg


if I need to calculate the speed of a moving target I can use a laser connected to PDA for very accurate data..or use a manual mode.. in 20 second I've seen people able to take speed on a moving target at 500 meters and do 2 hits..

speedtarget.jpg


there other several tactical info and pages....and for me is very easy to use it... at present I find CB1 more difficult..
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<span style="font-size: 14pt">My bad, <span style="font-weight: bold">I apologize</span> since I know FFS Delta III, FFS Delta IV and FFS Delta V they all have MGRS</span>

<span style="font-size: 11pt">When I said MGRS I was referring to having those coordinates displayed, in real-time, in the GPS position page, like in CB1.</span>

4r9a3t.jpg
2u77h2r.jpg
26xae.jpg


11aio0p.jpg
xbmfk5.jpg
28156cy.jpg


In CB1 it’s very easy to report the 3 coordinates, (Geo, UTM and MGRS) since all of them are displayed along the other parameters and automatically converted to the ellipsoid selected by the user…just select the required one from the upper selector box.

I agree that if an LRF input is available (only from an expensive Vectronix unit) the user can have the required Azimuth, Slope and Bearing at once.

However, it’s not a critical function and I don’t see any reason for an operator to make “lots” errors by entering them manually. After all, it’s not a function that will be used regularly. And I look forward to Patagonia adding the LRF input shortly.

I agree with what CoryT said that transferring via “cut & paste” is not a “best way”. It’s possible as FFS demonstrates, but only because FFS does not have, and will not in any foreseeable future, a “built in” ellipsoids conversion feature.

And do not forget to add to the cost of an Ozi Explorer license ( $ 40 ) for the unlimited version…just for a characteristic not present in the already costly FFS.

In regards of how “easy” a particular program is, I think it all comes down to personal familiarity and experience with a particular setup.

In my experience CB1 has a logic which is easy to follow after just a little use. And if you also run the Desktop edition, the patterns is basically the same. In CB1 all functions are clearly indicated and there is no need to jump from page to page. See screenshots.

On the other hand, in FFS I must navigate through a maze of menus and submenus…and I have to remember where a particular function could be located…and at the same time I have to recall some arcane initials…In a week or so of not using the system it’s very possible that I forgot what is what…

I should say that given your extensive use of FFS you find it easier to operate in the field, while I found the opposite and find CB1 a lot easier. It’s just a matter of personal preference and to each its own.

Good Shooting!
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Hello.... is not the case to " apologize "..... we are here to share info..

about this:

" However, it’s not a critical function and I don’t see any reason for an operator to make “lots” errors by entering them manually. After all, it’s not a function that will be used regularly. And I look forward to Patagonia adding the LRF input shortly."

I do not agree... because you can do errors taking the measures, compass bearing, laser and slope.. and also to write later the numbers in the PDA field.. so if we are speaking about " tactical field use " I found CB1 more difficult.

I'm using CB1 ( but I admit ) I'm not friendly with it for several reason but I did a check with a friend of mine, me with FFS and him with CB1 ( old patagonia ) the layout is the same....

so I was able to get a solution always well in advance..

For example, probably for my fault I don't know why every time I start CB1 I do not have the setting I did... ( metric )

now I want to show step by step what I do with FFS, using it in automatic mode, so with all my profile ( rifle, bullet, turrett already store 1 years ago ).... my kestrel is in metric setting and also my FFS... either software and kestrel maintains the settings.

I start the software and I connect PLRF 10 C and kestrel BT ( for CB1 you do same thing without che connection with the laser range finder )

so this is my primary page, if I do a measure with the laser range finder I've with one click what I need.. so nothing to recal, to change......I read my turret solution 7.8 MIL.... and I'm ready to shoot.

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Near me there is a friend of mine with a .408 rifle, and he need a solution for the same target, what I do I hit the field R ( bottom left side where now is written the name Wolverine ( my rifle )using the pen or using the key I use for this function, if I do not use the pen.. and I've this page

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where I can see the rifles I've stored....so double click on THUNDER and the software bring me back to the primary page with the turret solution for a .408 rifle

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and I can do this for all the rifle I've in my memory with the associated turret and bullet profile.

another friend of mine using my same rifle ask me to have a solution for a different bullet and load..

I hit the bottom B field to have all my load and I choose another one..

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and back again to the primary page with the solution for the different load 8.3 MIL

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this is the basic use.... could you show me what you have to do with CB1 step by step to have the same thing ?

if I want to use other functions I've to hit the relative field always from the primary page...

other examples

Like Cory I swicth off the kestrel after initial to save battery and if I want I can use wind at FFP or in 3 places ( same with CB1 )

in this case the prevailing wind is from 9 o'clock 10 km/h and I've also a moving target walking from left to right..

to have the correct speed and lead of the target I can do in this manner with the laser range finder..

1 hit and realese speed field and I go to this page..

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where I can do the 2 laser measures to have distances, speed and lead ...

in this case I do the 2 measures..

first one range 810 meters bearing 324
second one range 815 bearing 327.........in 21.4 seconds, so the target is moving away distance increasing bearing decreasing...

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hit accept and I'm back to primary page with the net hold 1.7 Right MIL ( considering wind and moving target ).... ready to shoot..

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there are other functions to manage multiple targets, loophole ecc. ecc. but the concept is the same from primary page I hit the correponding field to do the work ...hit accept and I'm back again to have everything under control.....

so for me is quite easy.... because the software is for tactical use in the field ... you have only to understand how is work but is very simple.... another important rule.....I can do what I want, write, do changes ...but if I do not hit ACCEPT..... the software doess't make any changes.....

PS.

You wrote this " On the other hand, in FFS I must navigate through a maze of menus and submenus…and I have to remember where a particular function could be located…and at the same time I have to recall some arcane initials…In a week or so of not using the system it’s very possible that I forgot what is what… "

I'm thinking the same thing about CB1.. are you serious ?
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Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Eaglet ...I'm asking this to you, because I see you know CB1 very well...may be better then PB...

so you are also able to take some screen shoot of CB1..

what I want to see are the steps to follow after this one.

CB.jpg
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

waiting the Eaglet step by step use of CB1 to have a solution.. I've read all the topic.... about the possibility to create DA back up tables I think FFS offers a very good way..

starting from primary page I hit " elevation "

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and this page came out

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on the top I can choose my setting, start, end and interval.. to show faster I've used 100 m for interval..

I hit capture and after Den. Alt. Tables

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and after I can choose my lower DA, upper DA and step

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you can do what you want....also there I chose nly 3 steps, after this you hit " accept " and in a second you have create a table in excel format in the document folder, with the PDA connected to you PC you can export, edit and print the tables..

5.jpg


the tables take in account all the data you have put in the primary page, so SD, load, coriolis ( if you need it ) wind and lead, angle/cosine

you have in a single page what you need for back up and field use..

FFSb.png


you can choose metric or imperial, step, every 100 m ( like this table or every 2 m.as you want, steps for DA, value for wind and lead ( full value ) in this case I use 10 km/h for windage and 1 km/h for lead... is shooter choice estabilish the direction for wind and lead..

you have value for agle O and for other inclined shoot... so you can have on a very simple table a very good back up.....
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I’ve been running Patagonia’s products for the last 6 years and yet I have to master all of its capabilities. On the www.longrangehunting.com forum you can read my over 2550 posts, long before this package saw the light. Let me say this quite straight. I’ve no affiliation of any kind with PB, except for my emails exchange during this long years, as well as many others did. Since I’m a heavy user of ballistics software, I test and ran almost every one that hits the market.

I also read the posts you wrote on FFS at http://www.tirolungadistanza.it/forum/index.php?board=59.0 (great site!) thanks to Google Translate!, where I learned that you distribute and teach course on it in Italy. I understand that you are a real expert on its features and had contribute to its development and beta testing.

I disagree with the idea of FFS being “better” for tactical usage because of it not being able to correctly process positions from diverse ellipsoids, and the lack of automatic Kestrel unit’s conversions, which is very prone to get errors during the manual typing process.

It’s clearly much more frequent the need for accurate atmospheric and wind data than for the occasional LFR input for coordinates reporting, a capability that requires a very expensive Vectronix unit. Anyway, as far I know CB1 is on its way to have it.

I’m not fond of turning this thread on some sort of “contest”…but to answer your question, which I find rare since you too run CB1, let me say it’s a very simple process.

1) Open the Ballistics module (optionally start also the Kestrel module which runs in background mode)
2) Tap on the DATABASE tab and select a Track
3) Tap on DATA / ENV tab and enter the current field conditions
4) Tap on SHOOT! and have the solution. That’s it.

Of course, while on the SHOOT! tab, the user can change the Slope, Wind and set the Spin Drift, Coriolis and Canting modes. By the way, where is the CANT option in FFS?

In FFS you just showed how to create a DA table. Nice.

Now, since you need a PC for that, and after exporting the CSV file do all kinds of formatting to get a table like the one you posted, may I suggest the use of CB1 DESKTOP edition?

For half the cost of FFS, you can have both editions, sync data between them and create a LOT of Field Charts, with just a click… of course, including the DA tables. And with another click, export them to Excel, PDF and WPS.


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Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Thanks for a good replay.... this is not a contest, but it's a place where we can share info...

you right about courses in Italy and also in other European States, what I've learned talking with military sniper units is... they want simple things..

the best thing could be a device with no battery problem, 50 grams of weight, MIL spec, where the sniper with a vocal request ask a solution....

I'm teaching some of them to use FFS and they want easy thing..

I say again nothing to say about CB1 solution.. very close to FFS.. but is the way to reach the solution...

you say that FFS has a ton of pages, menu and submenu.... but is not true... from the primary page you have access to all you need.... is in CB1 feature I found tons of pages and menus..

One thing in the Lex Talus website in the tutorial section and also in the manual the first things stressed are:

Preparing to Use this Program
Three Important Steps - Calibrate Scope , Determine MV,Calculate a BC

Calibrating the Scope - The only way a shooter knows how much his bullet actually drops over distance is by using the elevation turret of his scope to tell him how much elevation was required for the shot. What if the turret isn’t accurate?........

in CB1 manual you can found info about scope calibration at page 97......

so what I'm trying to say is that concepts in FFS are made and written by tactical shooters for tactical use in the field ( I apologize for my English..sometimes I could not able to say esactly what I want, and I'm not using a translator )

Cant... I prefer to have my scope installed in the right manner....and forget something about it..

Now I'm studying the CB1 manual and I'll try to do a correct use of it..

but at present time for me CB1 is like a whiz wheel ballistic ruler........and FFS is like a FDAC

I've show with some screen shoots how from primary pages you can manage several rifles, bullet/load, shooter enviroments, moving targets ecc ecc...... and not using tons of menu and pages...

I'll try to do the same thing with CB1 starting from what you wrote:

1) Open the Ballistics module (optionally start also the Kestrel module which runs in background mode)
2) Tap on the DATABASE tab and select a Track
3) Tap on DATA / ENV tab and enter the current field conditions
4) Tap on SHOOT! and have the solution. That’s it.

Of course, while on the SHOOT! tab, the user can change the Slope, Wind and set the Spin Drift, Coriolis

because at present time I'm not able to have a visual layout of the above things..
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Patagonia is much more inline in how Civilians shoot, and Military shooters tend to take a different approach to things. Most here in the states could careless about the "why" they just want something fast and simple that works. Heck when you consider the guys using the horus stuff, really it only has to "appear" to work to be deployed.

But shooters in general want the ability to tweak, build, and develop. Consider the guy who reloads. A military sniper knows very little about reloading if anything at all. They have to have an independent mindset to even consider it, after all they get the bullets for nothing and in their mind it works out fine. The guy doing load development is scrutinizing over everything. ColdBore allows you that level of control, and more.

If you have been shooting a 338LM and your 308 using FFS, and you decide you want to try moving up to a 260, or 7WSM, or any other wildcat that might not be commercially available, you have to leave FFS and hunt down as many details as possible, Well you don't have to leave ColdBore and in fact you can probably decide which one will suit you best from inside the program helping you make an informed decision based on the ballistics. This is geared towards the sport shooter... you have to build that from scratch in FFS, and not so much in ColdBore.

Personally I would not use one without the other. I would use Coldbore back in the rear to build cards, and analyze data, and use that data in FFS to get one shot solutions in the field. However if my PDA goes down, having a DA back up card, or other drop card from ColdBore is going to make me that much more effective because is actual data for my rifle, and uses a very similar engine to FFS. I think they are cheap enough to use both, especially when you consider the desktop side of ColdBore. There is a lot of horsepower in the program.

I have spoke to Gus about simplifying the interface and how it is now is about as close as we have come to an understanding. There is a very similar database you can save too and draw from, then just keep the "shoot tab" open, but I agree with Davide, moving to a new location you never have to leave the opening screen in FFS which makes it simple.

They are two different approaches to a similar problems and I think they both handle it much better than any other program out there, especially the "apps". Neither of these two programs can be compared to an App, and the nice thing is, they both run on the same system making them work together well.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

Yes, I agree...

with FFS, I calculate the BC of my bullet with 2 PVM-08 one near the muzzle and the other one at 300 meters indoor other time at 500 meters wind permitting and with accurate load, other times we use a device like a doppler to take speed at 1000 meters....

the results are close enough to shoot with good accuracy .338/.408 to a distances that matchs the calibers..with good hit percentage.

also with FFS I create my back up tables, because I'm friendly with it..

all the others FFS fuctions match with a field use and I'm happy with it...

in about 2 month my .375 chey tac will be ready to do some ELR shoots.... and FFS will be on my right hand side....
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

I'm going to agree with LL here (big suprise), having both is a good thing.

CB1 and/or Loadbase makes for a nice analytical toolset, FFS is, IMHO, better suited for field use.

Eaglet, how is it that hand entering range, slope and azimuth to get a position is fine, but hand entering pressure, temp and humidity is a problem? You can't argue that both ways.

As to datums, unless you are matching to a paper map, or providing the location to someone who for some reason won't or can't use WGS84, who really cares? I for sure do NOT want to have several different formats, or worse, datums, displayed at one time. Should it be added, yes, it probably should, but I think it's quite a bit less cretical than you imply.

I've said it before, the BT option on the Kestrel is a BAD idea altogether, so not converting the values is another meaningless issue, since you should not be using it in the first place. It's trackable RF, it's unsecure, it can't be shared between multiple units anyway, and it's a battery drain for get a few numbers entered that change VERY slowly. It's also pretty hard to screw up in a serious fashion anyway, whereas a very small error in range or azimuth will deliver a VERY bad position.

Please don't take this to say I think there is something seriously WRONG with ColdBore, there is not, it's a fine program. It's just not my first choice for a field system.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

" whereas a very small error in range or azimuth will deliver a VERY bad position "

above regardless of which map datum is in use..

taking a measure with a rangefinder that sometimes works and other no.. leupold, leica, bushnel eccecc.. put down the laser, bring the pen and write the number..

bring the compass I've a Camemenga and is accurate.... take the bearing +/- mag declination .. put down the compass, bring the pen and write the true bearing..

in case of slant distance bring a device MIL DOT master, ACI slope dope..take the angle...put down the device, bring the pen and write the number...

all this operation could introduce additional errors..

Tactical use on the field, NOMAD, FFS, PLRF10/15C or a Vector, cable with remote control...... no compromise.
 
Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

some setups, Vectronix Vector or PLRF 10 C, Nomad with FFS Delta V, spoting scope Leupold/Spotter 60

Mspotter.jpg


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Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes


Let me start by saying that I’m not a professional computer scientist, but I did a lot of programming in the past and not long ago, I gave for free right here on this forum and at the LRH forum a program I’e developed based on the equations found in Litz’s book.

So I know what programming is about and what makes for a good usage, I ‘m referring to the concepts of “user interface” and “user interaction”

In FFS the user is ALWAYS leaving the main “page”, the screenshots posted by Davide are a good and fair evidence of what I’m saying…call it whatever you like, “form”, “view”, you name it…the point is the user is not left with any other option than to tap on an arcane “single letter command” and go to another part of the program, then hit “back” to return to the main “page”.

The FFS user must remember what is the meaning of the obscure “single letters commands” like the “R”, “T”, “O” and “B”…in a week or so, I’m sure that I’ll forgot what they are there for…

In CB1, the user is presented with a “tabbed” interface, where every command and tab perfectly labeled. No chance to forget their meaning, and since there is no “Calculate” button, no chance to forget to hit it…and having in view a wrong solution because the user modified some parameter in another “page”

And yes, in FFS the user must navigate and remember in what menu/submenu a function is…just look at the screenshots.

it’s important to do not confuse a “tabbed” interface where all is segmented and clearly indicated (labeled) with an interface full of menus and submenus. They are completely different approaches.

I think we can all agree that “user friendliness” is undoubtedly a subjective concept. To many Apple’s interface is best than what is offered by Microsoft’s Windows…while for other millions they feel exactly the opposite. So, who is right?

Familiarity and constant, repetitive use of a particular system is the key to define what is “user friendly”

In my opinion, FFS has an old interface, akin to the old days of MS-DOS…with cryptic commands and a maze of menu and submenus…I’d like to know why was that hard to correctly label every command and option?...

Clearly it’s not that difficult, being CB1 a good example. In a “tabbed” interface the user NEVER leaves the page…just navigate thru it, back and forth.

“Better for field use” is again, in my consideration, the same as being “user friendly” …it all comes down to who is training who and under what conditions and with enough exposure to a particular system.

We all have to admit, that the then “new” user interface in the iPhone was a game changer…leaving Windows Mobile well behind, and for a lot of good reasons. Only Android and the new Windows Phone platform can compete with it. It was suc a change in “user interaction” that a new world was created just after them.

If I say that many, counting as well, the British Army, Spanish Army, the Legion and other military units are running CB1, then what system is better for “tactical and military use” ? Those are not precisely “civilian” examples of users running the software…and these guys are the real thing.
<span style="color: #CC0000">However and to be fair, some prefer to run FFS in the field, while others prefer to run CB1. To each its own, since down to personal tastes there is not much to say about.</span>

I do agree again with Lowlight…the horsepower in CB1 is fairly amazing.

I almost forgot in my previous post some screenshots of a field chart that always come handy while I’m in the field, the RETICLE HOLD.

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Davide,

CANTING is not about having your scope perfectly leveled so there is “no need” to compensate for it…that’s not the main idea for featuring such correction.

It’s a tactical need. I’ve learned that military snipers in the UK, Canada and Spain are taught to shoot from a “sideways” position and still be able to engage a target at long range. Sometimes there is no other way than to fire from an odd, non-leveled position, thus the need for a program to truly deliver a real-world solution under ANY circumstance.

In CB1, Canting comes in two ways, one designed for analysis, the “POI mode” and the “Fire Solution Mode” that yields a compensated Fire Solution.

I was told by PB that both, the CANTING and ZERO STOP features were the direct result of a military requirement.

Another issue I see in FFS is how it computes a range off a MIL reading. Where is the Viewing Angle input? Unless FFS is always assuming that the observer and target are always on the same plane…

CoryT,

I wrote this before. It’s all about FREQUENCY. Do you report coordinates more often than reading atmospheric data? I don’t. Of course, a user can make errors in writing down the Azimuth, Slope and Range…however, since it’s not that usual to do that, the stakes are high for a much more common operation. But I admit that having an LRF input is nice feature. I was told that CB1 will feature it in the future.

Having a Kestrel feature is a nice to have, not that critical as Lowlight and you already pointed out. But if I have a program as expensive as FFS is I’ll like to have at least the best possible solution…which is not current in FFS…and is only offered by CB1. That’s my whole point.

Same concept about NOT having an automatic ellipsoids conversion…when it seems to be “opportune enough”, that feature is not that important and a “copy & paste” arcane operation is the best way…come on please! You must address that in the USA is not that significant but for other countries, the British Army among them it’s VERY critical.

On the other hand, having a wrong datum (based on a certain ellipsoid) is a definite way for getting important errors…so what’s the point of not weighing it correctly? I used to work in the past doing that kind of calculations and as such I know what I’m talking about.

Please don’t think even for a minute that I’m saying FFS is not a good package, because I'm not. But the idea of this thread was to share points of view on probably, the two best ballistics packages out there…and if with our comments we can make the developers to improve on them, the better!

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Re: Ballistic software, and ballistic scopes

<span style="color: #FF0000">" It’s a tactical need. I’ve learned that military snipers in the UK, Canada and Spain are taught to shoot from a “sideways” position and still be able to engage a target at long range. Sometimes there is no other way than to fire from an odd, non-leveled position, thus the need for a program to truly deliver a real-world solution under ANY circumstance.

In CB1, Canting comes in two ways, one designed for analysis, the “POI mode” and the “Fire Solution Mode” that yields a compensated Fire Solution.

I was told by PB that both, the CANTING and ZERO STOP features were the direct result of a military requirement. "</span>
I'm in touch with a lot of military snipers team even specials forces and nobody ask me something about it.. may be could be a true need or may be a table babeling...

Frank's words " Military shooters tend to take a different approach to things. Most here in the states could careless about the "why" they just want something fast and simple that works "

Military shooters here in Italy have the same approach.. easy things...

May be England, Canada and Spanish military shooters have different approach... <span style="color: #FF0000">" to shoot from a “sideways” position and still be able to engage a target at long range. Sometimes there is no other way than to fire from an odd, non-leveled position ".........</span>may be a real need..

It's very difficult to me try to image a shooter/spotter in a field tactical situation in a sideways position give input to his PDA to take in account the cant.....

you have learned this...... I speake with military sniper everyday....I'm curious to know other opinion about this...

One more thing.......you don't have to memorize every O, B, T, R..... if this get you in trouble... O ( offset ) B ( bullets ) T ( target ) ( R rifle )...... just tap it, take a look....make a selection if you need and back to the primary page...very easy...