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The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

Oddball Six

Oddball Six

Commander of Meh
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 2, 2010
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Went through all of the docket and the minutes for the Hogan/POF lawsuit. Summary of what has happened so far to bring people up to speed:

April 2011

Hogan asked for a default judgement against POF based on POF not responding earlier to Hogan's original suit against POF for not paying for some things, etc.

The court asked hogan to provide documentation of the facts and information related to a default judgement.

Subsequently a notice was entered vacating an entry of default.

June 2011

POF Filed an answer to Hogan's lawsuit and made counter claims against hogan, advanced device design, and a number of individuals for all manner of items, including counterfeiting and patent violations.

July 2011

Advanced Device Design asserted a motion to dismiss the claims against them based on an arbitration clause in thier contract with POF.

Hogan seeks to have POF's claims dismissed.

August 2011

Judge changes

September 2011

Claims against ADD are dismissed and POF is compelled to arbitration.
The order to dismiss those claims is soon after vacated.

Hogan files a motion for partial summary judgement of POF's counter claims.


January 2012

Claims against ADD are re-dismissed for those based on licensing agreements between POF and ADD.

The PSJ motion is granted for Hogan so that POF cannot pursue claims based on a "partnership" between Hogan and POF to be in business together. The court found that some of the state requirements for what constitutes a partnership were not met, therefore those claims could not proceed. Others around licensing and patent infringement could continue.

March 2012

Another suit that POF had brought related to the allegedly unauthorized sale of parts using POF designs against an individual was consolidated to be included with the Hogan/POF lawsuit.

April 2012

Scheduling order was issued.
- Hogan Expert witnesses are designated by September 2012
- POF Expert witnesses are designated by November 2012
- All response experts are designated by December 2012
- Discovery is completed by January 2013
- All supplemental disclosures shared by end-January 2013

May 2012

Wierd dogfight of Steven Kates and "Dr Sky Inc" (the new consolidated case defendants) to disqualify the counsel of Hogan Manufacturing. Hard to know what this is over because all we have access to is the docket and the meeting minutes.

July 2012

Judge took the disqualify motion under advisement and will make a ruling at a later date.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

So to this point, it looks for all the world like this thing is going to trial at the moment. A lot of different parties involved.

Hogan wanted money and a judgement against POF for thier actions when things went sour.

Based on Hogan and others going out and being part of sales of the POF designs without POF getting their cut, POF responds and counter-sues world+dog.

Advanced Device Design says we have a contract about doing design and licensing work here. That contract says we go to arbitration. Initially the court agrees, lets ADD leave the lawsuit and says the claims have to go through the American Arbitration Association.

POF says wait, that's not fair, no one in their right mind would agree to unequivocally give up all their legal rights. The court doesn't agree with that, but agrees that there are some claims that aren't related to the agreement compelling arbitration. ADD can take some contractual things to arbitration, but needs to stay in court to defend the things that POF is saying outside of the scope of that relationship about ADD's commercial conduct.

Hogan wants out of the claims about a partnership, because they don't think a partnership existed. The court agrees. POF still has claims around counterfeiting, patent infringement, etc.

One of the smaller individuals / small companies involved that POF counter-sued wants to disqualify Hogan's law firm.

The court has established the basic schedule of the legal documentation, sharing of information, etc, that will allow this to get to trial sometime next year.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

I didn't realize that so many parties are involved. I really do wonder how this will all turn out.

While this lawsuit is going on, is Hogan going to continue selling their rifles?

In a Shotshow vid, I believe I heard that the GAP-10 receivers were made by Hogan. I wonder how this lawsuit will affect those parts?
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.O.U.S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't realize that so many parties are involved. I really do wonder how this will all turn out.

While this lawsuit is going on, is Hogan going to continue selling their rifles?

In a Shotshow vid, I believe I heard that the GAP-10 receivers were made by Hogan. I wonder how this lawsuit will affect those parts? </div></div>


Attorneys get paid, fat hourly rates. It is in THEIR best interest to have this circle jerk continue into the next decade. They are quite adept at stoking the fires of litigation.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 997/2man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Attorneys get paid, fat hourly rates. It is in THEIR best interest to have this circle jerk continue into the next decade. They are quite adept at stoking the fires of litigation. </div></div>

Yup..


And in the end we the consumer probably get screwed.

Either with warranty issues or with longer wait times for builds or just general shenanigans.

I really despise legaleeeze.

A common sense court would make me more happy happy happy.

Something thing that annoy's me about HOGAN MFG is if POF was buying the parts from them, they were not paying cost. POF has marketing costs out the wazzoo. They are in most every gun mag, at the NRA show, at many large events, have the Jeep all tacticool'ed out and then some. So POF has a great deal of cost to get a rifle out there, this of course is rolled over to us, the consumer. Part of doing business, got it and ok with it as I paid the price for 2 of them.

So now Hogan rolls out their rifles (same as POF's) yet they get the manufacturing at COST AND HAVE HARDLY ANY ADVERTISING yet we are expected to pay the same price POF charged. I do not like this. Seems like they are putting out the same product for more profit. Part of business again, yet I dont have to like it.

If they rolled this savings out to the consumer (me) I would buy another and be happy.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.O.U.S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't realize that so many parties are involved. I really do wonder how this will all turn out.

While this lawsuit is going on, is Hogan going to continue selling their rifles?

In a Shotshow vid, I believe I heard that the GAP-10 receivers were made by Hogan. I wonder how this lawsuit will affect those parts? </div></div>

Talked to some one over at POF a few weeks ago about some technical info and i asked if GAP was getting their parts from POF and not Hogan. They said that yes POF was supplying parts to GAP.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kodiak61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they rolled this savings out to the consumer (me) I would buy another and be happy.
</div></div>

Well <span style="font-style: italic">someone </span>has to pay for the legal bills!
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

Just curious about what dog inthe fight the OP has.

Those close to the parties know how intertwined things were, and common sense and ethics will hopefully prevail.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.O.U.S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't realize that so many parties are involved. I really do wonder how this will all turn out.

While this lawsuit is going on, is Hogan going to continue selling their rifles?

In a Shotshow vid, I believe I heard that the GAP-10 receivers were made by Hogan. I wonder how this lawsuit will affect those parts? </div></div>

Talked to some one over at POF a few weeks ago about some technical info and i asked if GAP was getting their parts from POF and not Hogan. They said that yes POF was supplying parts to GAP. </div></div>


I found the video that caused my confusion. At 22 seconds.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/u-Xfbm29OZk"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/u-Xfbm29OZk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

Yeah well the above outlined story is missing a whole bunch of FACTS!!

Guess them legal docs you have dont show and paint the whole picture.

There is a much bigger picture to this situation then many of the viewers here will ever be privledged to know.

Either way in the end my advise to the consumer is buy your products from POF.

They are a growing company and will be around once all this court BS gets hammered out.

Add to it Frank is a stand up guy and a fine American and a true patriot.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

I just hope that whomever is in the right will be able to afford keeping the doors open when all is said and done.
Lawyers aren't cheap.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah well the above outlined story is missing a whole bunch of FACTS!!

Guess them legal docs you have dont show and paint the whole picture.

There is a much bigger picture to this situation then many of the viewers here will ever be privledged to know.

Either way in the end my advise to the consumer is buy your products from POF.

They are a growing company and will be around once all this court BS gets hammered out.

Add to it Frank is a stand up guy and a fine American and a true patriot.





</div></div>


Many of the distributors for POF,small and large, are very confident that POF will be around after this fight with Hogan.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

I haven't heard or read anything about this in a while. I have a POF and hope they stay around. Also hope this all gets worked out sooner than later
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah well the above outlined story is missing a whole bunch of FACTS!!

Guess them legal docs you have dont show and paint the whole picture.

There is a much bigger picture to this situation then many of the viewers here will ever be privledged to know.

Either way in the end my advise to the consumer is buy your products from POF.

They are a growing company and will be around once all this court BS gets hammered out.

Add to it Frank is a stand up guy and a fine American and a true patriot.</div></div>

Well said...
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

Interesting. Don't know every little tidbit of the dramma, but I hope it gets worked out soon so POF can get back to focusing 100% on what they're good at - building rifles.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

I took a brief look at this as well, and Oddball's recap of what's happened so far appears to be fair and accurate. POF is perhaps better known in this case and has more name recognition and fans here, but judging by the information in the pleadings so far it may be too early and too simplistic to conclude one party is the bad guy and the other is a good guy.

As Hogan is making GAP's AR platform and other systems as suggested by the video and other materials above, it seems like there's a good chance both companies have enough other business relationships to survive the litigation intact, which is the real win from a consumer perspective.

Thanks Oddball for the recap,

John
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

Hogan made major parts to POF's design for POF for a long time.
For them to make what they made for someone else and turn around and sell what POF designed, R&D'd and marketed as their own, regardless of any falling out between owners is well.....
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

I wouldn't rely on this Thread as anything but the opinion of non participants.

It never ceases to amaze me that when two parties don't get along, and can't get along, people looking in from the outside find a way to blame the only ones left who are willing and able to resolve the problem - the attorneys.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kodiak61</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 997/2man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Attorneys get paid, fat hourly rates. It is in THEIR best interest to have this circle jerk continue into the next decade. They are quite adept at stoking the fires of litigation.</div></div>Yup..And in the end we the consumer probably get screwed....I really despise legaleeeze.</div></div>Do either of you know how the attorneys are getting paid, or even if they are getting paid? If so, feel free to post the information.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kodiak61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they rolled this savings out to the consumer (me) I would buy another and be happy.</div></div>Well <span style="font-style: italic">someone </span>has to pay for the legal bills!</div></div>That's amateur economics, and not how business works. If you know, as you imply, that the legal expenses are increasing the cost of POFs products kindly post how, and by how much.

 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah well the above outlined story is missing a whole bunch of FACTS!!

Guess them legal docs you have dont show and paint the whole picture.

There is a much bigger picture to this situation then many of the viewers here will ever be privledged to know.

Either way in the end my advise to the consumer is buy your products from POF.

They are a growing company and will be around once all this court BS gets hammered out.

Add to it Frank is a stand up guy and a fine American and a true patriot.

</div></div>

Brother. You took the words right out of my mouth.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took a brief look at this as well, and Oddball's recap of what's happened so far appears to be fair and accurate. POF is perhaps better known in this case and has more name recognition and fans here, but judging by the information in the pleadings so far it may be too early and too simplistic to conclude one party is the bad guy and the other is a good guy.

As <span style="font-weight: bold">Hogan is making GAP's AR</span> platform and other systems as suggested by the video and other materials above, it seems like there's a good chance both companies have enough other business relationships to survive the litigation intact, which is the real win from a consumer perspective.

Thanks Oddball for the recap,

John </div></div>

Where do you get that from? My GAP10 is stamped POF on it.
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kodiak61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they rolled this savings out to the consumer (me) I would buy another and be happy.</div></div>Well <span style="font-style: italic">someone </span>has to pay for the legal bills!</div></div>That's amateur economics, and not how business works. If you know, as you imply, that the legal expenses are increasing the cost of POFs products kindly post how, and by how much.

</div></div>

Nice touch Graham!
 
Re: The Latest on the POF / Hogan Spat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where do you get that from? My GAP10 is stamped POF on it. </div></div>

From George Gardner of GAP, around 22 seconds:

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/u-Xfbm29OZk"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/u-Xfbm29OZk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

It seems there's enough conflicting information out there that they might have changed vendors at some point, or used both at different times.
 
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