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Try unsupported prone.

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's like saying in order to learn follow through you have to shoot a flintlock

As if you can't practice and hone the fundamentals without a sling?

It's a position, not a fundamental.

Sounds like a similar line of bullshit the Palma guys give the FClass crowd because they use a scope or rest. </div></div>It's simply ego: It's a way of saying "I know more than you".

It's also a way of saying that my shooting discipline is better, or more advanced, or more difficult than your shooting discipline. Those kinds of statements always say more about the instructor than they do about the student. They serve the instructor's selfish purpose of saying that he knows more than the student, or more than another instructor, but it doesn't explain or show what he has seen and how to fix the problem to help a student improve.

I say: Show me; don't tell me.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Also, for the sling crowd,

Beyond a few specialized modifications for Palma shooting, where has all the advancements in sling development that bridges shooting & carrying come from?

Places like here is where, TIS, TAB, Arnageddon are the only true shooting slings that have been developed in the last 20 years I know of. These slings have made shooting with a sling faster and easier using modern materials, and actual thought behind the process.

Most default to a Turner, and when the leather turned out to be fragile in the field without a lot of care, they made the Turner out of a rubberized plastic.

Take the TAB, it's modular, the shooting section only needs to be adjusted once, and can be used without the back connected. It's designed for carry with quick release to aid movement.

Who else is developing slings for shooting a 15+ pound rifle, that also aids in carry ? Outside of the Tactical community, certainly not the high power guys. All their work ties directly to the use of the jacket.

Isn't service rifle still clinging to 20 year old slings ?
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Still one could argue the FClass target has gotten smaller over the years, so. </div></div>

Explain to me how the size of the scoring rings means anything? What argument is there on that issue?
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Still one could argue the FClass target has gotten smaller over the years, so. </div></div>

Explain to me how the size of the scoring rings means anything? What argument is there on that issue?
</div></div>

Kraig wrote earlier...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And over all marksmanship has been going south every since.</div></div>


Try reading the thread, or even just look at the picture of the recent sling use in Tactical Competitions...

The Fact F Class accuracy has gotten so good, they had to reduce the target size says something about the state of shooting.

The Fact at Camp Perry in August 12 Records were broken says something about the state of shooting.

The fact you cherry picked that one line says a whole lot more about your position in this debate and in this thread.

Maybe, and this is just my opinion, you're really not paying attention to what is being said.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

"Try reading the thread, or even just look at the picture of the recent sling use in Tactical Competitions... "
Just because someone sticks a sling on their rifle and "uses" it doesnt mean anything more than that. Heck, just go to your local HP match and see that in action.

"The Fact F Class accuracy has gotten so good, they had to reduce the target size says something about the state of shooting. "
Really? I dont think the rifles have necessarily gotten any more accurate, but when you take away the requirement of using irons and holding the rifle yourself, well, I certainly hope your group gets smaller as you just took out 2 big parts necessary to execute a good shot. Doesnt mean folks have gotten better....remember my comment about my 11 yr old that has no problem shooting good scores, even at 1000? He can do so cause he doesnt have to hold the rifle and doesnt have to use irons. Those are huge factors, are they not?

" The Fact at Camp Perry in August 12 Records were broken says something about the state of shooting. "
Exactly what 12 records are you referring to? The earlier comments about records were all over the place, and at least on one reference, incorrect.

"The fact you cherry picked that one line says a whole lot more about your position in this debate and in this thread. "
You can take from my comments what you want, I cant control that. But, for the most part, yeah, I just see this as a pissin match between skunks...all come out stinking and as long as gun folk keep doing that, we are only hurting ourselves. Just like the sling vs F class nonsense. Seen it first hand too, but it goes more in the other direction, imho.

"Maybe, and this is just my opinion, you're really not paying attention to what is being said."
You are basically right....remember my comment re urinating skunks? Rather than debating it, folks should be out shooting. I would shoot more disciplines if I had the time, but I dont, it takes all I can do to manage to be decent at the one I play in. Until I feel I have done everything I am going to do in it, I probably wont be branching out. doesnt mean I dont want to or that I dont think any other type of shooting doesnt have merit, I just dont have the time to dabble when I havent mastered the one I play in as is.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Isn't service rifle still clinging to 20 year old slings ? </div></div>

no, 40 or 50 yo slings that force you to use the otherwise impractical jackets because without the pad the sling will cut off blood flow to your arm

If service rifle wanted to get real, body armor and helmets would be the main requirement so the skill set learned would better translate to actual conditions
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig,

Anderson shot in the 50's, 60's and 70's and according to every search I made holds no current record.

In fact checking the NRA high power blog, this past year more than 10 records were set.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Day three. The Third day of NRA's Long Range High Power Rifle Championships. A day that will go down in the record books. For today was a day in which records were set. Records so significant that a few competitors request their targets be brought up from the Pits. Not one record. Not two records. But more then a dozen Long Range Rifle records.
</div></div>

You guys need to emerge from the 70's and get with the times. This was this year and it talks about records from the 90's as well I found references to records set in the early 2000's.

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2012/08/13/N...Perry-Ohio.aspx

The madness occurred when calculating the Herb "Doc" Aiken numbers. The Doc Aiken trophy goes to those with the top Palma rifleman (or woman) from 1,000 yards. Back in 1998, John J. Jackson set the record with a 199-8x. That record fell more then ten times today thanks to Parag Patel, Jon Underwood, Jon Rhynard, Justin Skaret, James Lewis, Owen Henry, Nathaniel Guernsey, Robert Sketetee, Norman Anderson before David Luckman of Great Britain swept in once again to set the bar ever so high at 200-13x.

Next on the block is the Wimbledon Cup. Wimbledon is a slow fire Any rifle match from 1,000 yards. The record was established back in 2004 by Michelle Gallagher. That year, Michelle capped off the match with a solid 200-16x. Unfortunately for Michelle, that record was beaten twice today by the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit. Shane Barnhart registered a 200-17x right before teammate Tyler (Ty) Cooper nailed down a 200-18x. Then things really took off.


Wake and smell the new century.
</div></div>

You're really not paying attention...

The NRA BLOG Post regarding Camp Perry in August, I quoted it, linked it ...

Certainly when you are trying to cite a guys record from 54 years ago, you'll run into "all over the place' but when the NRA comments on stuff from a few months ago... personally I think you guys are not paying attention and citing records that aren't really records as the ones that matter are recorded and there to be seen. Gary Anderson no longer holds any I can find, that is "international" at least. If you want to cite some obscure record like 200 yards something that is not shot for record, ok, but there are records for these events and not in any print can I find he continues to hold a real record. In 50+ I think it is safe to say he was eclipsed, in fact his one Wiki record was beat by over 100 pts. Not knowing and thinking he holds a record doesn't make it fact. If you want to give him a record for an event no longer held in the Olympics, ok, but they still shoot it and his score is not the record anymore.

Do I need to quote it again...

Here I can bold it for you if you missed it the first time:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Day three. The Third day of NRA's Long Range High Power Rifle Championships. A day that will go down in the record books. For today was a day in which records were set. Records so significant that a few competitors request their targets be brought up from the Pits. Not one record. Not two records. But more then a dozen Long Range Rifle records.</span>

last time I checked, a dozen was 12... so 12 records changed in one week of Camp Perry... I would say accuracy has not gone south and no where does it say every record broken or changed was done via belly bench rest ...

The facts suck when you aren't paying attention.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg,

I hope this thread does not digress to the virtues of using a sling, but, I agree with all you have said. I'm just attemting to raise awareness for training in the unsupported prone position as a method for understanding the importance of being congnisant for the elements and factors of a steady position. Some folks here have a multitude of questions about rear bags and bipods which overlook, I think, the basic fundementals which may be the basis of their issues. </div></div>

the thread was started "to raise awareness for unsupported prone" and went to sling vs bipod /decline in marksmanship/ records debate - all rehashed issues that nave nothing to do with the subject


To the OP I will ask again: WHAT is this strategy for shooting prone unsupported that you feel is important to practice ??????
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

LL "Day three. The Third day of NRA's Long Range High Power Rifle Championships. A day that will go down in the record books. For today was a day in which records were set. Records so significant that a few competitors request their targets be brought up from the Pits. Not one record. Not two records. But more then a dozen Long Range Rifle records."

LL, you do realize that there are National Records for any registered match and then there are the National Championship National Records, right? They are different. I know, its confusing. But if you are going to tell some of us that we are wrong......


"You guys need to emerge from the 70's and get with the times. This was this year and it talks about records from the 90's as well I found references to records set in the early 2000's. "
Just not sure what you are arguing here.....so no response.

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2012/08/13/N...Perry-Ohio.aspx

Yes, I am aware of the blog, as I read it every day to make sure they had my name spelled right.
wink.gif


LL "Wake and smell the new century. "
huh?

LL" Certainly when you are trying to cite a guys record from 54 years ago, you'll run into "all over the place' but when the NRA comments on stuff from a few months ago... personally I think you guys are not paying attention and citing records that aren't really records as the ones that matter are recorded and there to be seen."
Actually, I think you might be the one with the records "handicap"....see above, and below.

LL" Gary Anderson no longer holds any I can find, that is "international" at least."
Wrong.

LL "If you want to cite some obscure record like 200 yards something that is not shot for record, ok, but there are records for these events and not in any print can I find he continues to hold a real record."
Really? 200 yards offhand isnt shot for record any longer? Maybe folks that dont use slings or have to use a rest dont shoot it, but its still the first stage of every XTC match fired in the US, unless a reduced course, of course. And yes, Gary still co-holds the record.

LL "In 50+ I think it is safe to say he was eclipsed, in fact his one Wiki record was beat by over 100 pts. Not knowing and thinking he holds a record doesn't make it fact. If you want to give him a record for an event no longer held in the Olympics, ok, but they still shoot it and his score is not the record anymore. "
Maybe you need to look elsewhere than Wiki....didnt realize it was an authority or citable reference for national records.

LL "Do I need to quote it again... "
Maybe if you tried a different, and bit more reliable, source.



The facts suck when you aren't quoting the right source...and records.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

1907 Slings have been used since............1907. Reason being, they work.

I did say Marksmanship Has been Going down. I stand by that statement.

But that's just part of the statement. That was met to mean "overall marksmanship in the Army", I also stated that I wasn't talking about Competition, Precision Rifle, Snipers, SDM, etc. I met the individual soldier.

It's a bit different shooting expert on a 19X40 target compared to the 2 MOA or so 10 ring on the 600 or 500 yard target.

I've had more then one individual attending my CMP GSM clinics who said they shot expert in the Army yet couldn't come close to getting the bronze on the 200 yard target (3.5 MOA 10-X ring) even when using ARs in the Modern Military division.

I agree records are being broken in today's high power. I credit the ARs for that, they are just flat easier to shoot then the M1/M14s. I've only shot Service Rifle, I can't tell you about the NRA Match Rifle.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

No offense but the reason these threads devolve is because, all Sterling does is regurgitate the same old thing.

He lists the elements of a steady position, as written. Period, there is nothing added to enlighten, there is just the constant beat of the same drum over and over again without any real instruction.

As Graham noted it is about his ego and his perception of the problem, although he fails to understand the elements involved in shooting from a bipod with a high powered scope as he admittedly so, avoids it for the more part. He dabbles in this type of shooting less than we shoot slings. Clearly.

While the fundamentals of Marksmanship are universal things have changed when you address different positions. An example of this:

Even with a bipod he advocates the use of a sling and the support hand up front on the forearm of the rifle. Well this can help solve a problem for someone, it is a not what constitutes a good position with a bipod. Straight back has been proven on many levels. A rear bag, or any rear support has been proven to enhance accuracy.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Of course like anything without proper instruction you can do it wrong. </span> That doesn't' dismiss the entire concept, just means people have filled in the missing blanks incorrectly.

This is where Sterling fails...

He doesn't have the ability to provide proper instruction in this case so he falls back to his talking points from which he never deviates. The 7 elements of a steady position are: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7. End of conversation. Nothing on how to use them, or what they look or feel like, just constant repetition of the text.

Now they generally advocate the leg up position, but clearly the prone has been modified over the years to be a bit more effective and to manage the recoil.

prone2.JPG


Clearly this man is a big target, and has an acute angle at the shoulder, managing the recoil will be difficult at best. We want to eliminate angles, and be consistent.

The angles is the issue, at least we have learned but people continue to repeat what they see

Prone-example-e1307745508603.jpg


So question: <span style="font-weight: bold">Why the leg up ? </span>

People ask this all the time, why the leg up, and the answer is usually to take the pressure of the diaphragm. Okay, but if we break at the bottom of breathing cycle you don't have to worry about breathing or your diaphragm correct ?

Now we have modified the prone again, slightly to be a bit straighter behind the rifle:

Prone%20Sling.jpg


By being straight back and dropping square you can get a bit more consistent by indexing with the legs. Stepping up, dropping the knees and then falling straight down to form your support for the rifle.
This makes you a smaller target and allows for recoil management, where the other positions do not.

People will find a bit more discomfort at first, but with practice, and repetition like anything you can learn to use the position.

With a bipod it helps manage the recoil so the rifle barely moves.

Screen-Shot-2012-12-08-at-10.02.57-AM.png


Here with the bipod and a rear bag you can see how we have eliminated angles, as recoil will exploit the angles.

In high power, where you have lots of time, where rebuilding the position from shot to shot is not an issue, being at an angle is both comfortable and encouraged due to the ease of adoption. The pain threshold is very low, so people will pick up on faster.

But Sterling never talks about where the elbows are placed, (under the rifle) or how to set up the sling. What his tension feels like... so reads are tired of suffering his repeated calls for the use of this position and his constant text book responses that don't explain anything.

It's like constantly copying and pasting a link and telling people to go figure it out. Reading what you perceive as a problem and not being able to address, instead just repeating your same old mantra, well you see the results.

This is why it devolves, there is no "awareness" there is just repetition of text ignoring time, lessons learned and the slight differences in systems and positions. The details matter, ignoring them moves the conversation in the wrong direction.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Mudcat, if you want to continue down that road, cite his records, and provide links,

I have provided, links, and names as to current record holders and scores... you have provided absolutely nothing but disagreement with nothing to back it up.

Show me in writing where I can see, and I will admit wrong, but I actually searched, found his records and the current records.

Show me ?
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Rifle marksmanship basic fundamentals cross over into each other to a point,true. Each shooting position then again has its own unique fundamentals and nuances that differ that an individual shooter must learn as to what works for them, on their own. To say sling shooting is the end all of learning proper techniques is not correct, just as much as saying front support will teach you all you need to learn. Throw in different disciplines and equipment and the learning curve gets longer.

Hey I love driving my .338 LM off front support just as much as I love slinging up my M1A and hammering out a 100 6x off the 300 yard line. Both put a smile on my face, each has their own skills matrix that I needed to learn, or am still learning.

I find shooting different positions at a tactical match more of a test of myself than shooting a high power, F-class or Palma match, other may think different and thats OK, this is me.


Offhand 3 for 3 on steel at a match, notice the bi-pod NOT in use.


offhand_crop.jpg


Some other positions you may want to consider, I think Sterling may have used these back in the day
grin.gif


Crack_Shots_1875_med_res.jpg
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

LL, go here for National Records http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natl_records.asp

Here is the current 200 yard offhand records, or part of them, anyhow, as there are different categories for each stage of fire or agg that has a record.

National Rifle Association Official National Records as of 12/8/2012

HIGH POWER RIFLE [62]
Individual at 200 Yds
20 SHOTS 200 YDS - SF STAND - METALLIC SIGHTS
Category Record Holder Score X/10 +Score +X/10 Time Date
Open G L ANDERSON
ALEXANDRIA, VA 200 15 08/24/1971
Carl R. Bernosky
Ashland, PA 200 15 08/12/2011
Civilian G L ANDERSON
ALEXANDRIA, VA 200 15 08/24/1971
Carl R. Bernosky
Ashland, PA 200 15 08/12/2011
Service T JACKSON
FT BENNING, GA 200 13 06/03/1989


I have not looked to see if Gary has any other current/standing national records. Dont recall if he has any National Matches records still standing or not.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Ok,

You found one reference at 200 yards and since 4 people have tied him, yep, one whole record... that is meant to prove the point that marksmanship is in decline because he was only tied 4x, not beat.

Kraig said, As far as "the old ways" being obsolete, tell that to Gary Anderson, he set the Offhand ISU record in the '70s which no one has broken yet."

Tied, 4x in recent years, not broken... technically it is correct, but as I have noted, many of his scores have been broken by a wide margin... you found one that stood alongside with 4 others.

you punk'd me ...
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

LL, go look at the record, you are wrong, yet again.

And if you actually went and looked, at the proper source for HP records, you would see he has another, still, the 1000 agg XTC at 997-49x. Pretty darn good, and has stood since 1977.

That offhand, 200 yard record, is incredibly impressive and one that most of us though would never be tied, let alone, broken, but Carl did it last year at the Nationals. My guess is you dont even know what the target or string of fire is for that record. Suffice it to say, I will put a hefty wager on it that you cant make the 200, let alone do it with 15Xs. It was, and still is, a badass accomplishment and record.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

oh they repeated it, my bad ...

Honestly who cares... it's a penny in the big picture... it's probably because hardly anyone does that, or nobody bothered to submit the paperwork.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh they repeated it, my bad ...

Honestly who cares... it's a penny in the big picture... it's probably because hardly anyone does that, or nobody bothered to submit the paperwork. </div></div>

Seriously?! Really? On that note, I am outta here as I have had my fill of windmills for the day....need to go prep some brass for those offhand matches that "hardly anyone does or bothers to submit paperwork" for. ODL........

You do realize he is an Olympic Gold Medalist, right? And you have how many Olympic medals.........?
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

a standing 200 15 X is impressive for anyone but does not relate to any points that anyone made about skill levels, bipods, slings or this elusive prone unsupported - it would be about 5 devoted individuals with good shooting systems who each had a really good day


I am going to investigate what elements would comprise the best possible prone unsupported position

the scenario for it's use that I can imagine is fairly quick shots when in an area of large uneven rocks that would be impractical for resting the stock on, or even a bipod if you had one

I know that is stretching it, but why else, in real life would some one use a less stable platform when something better is available ie. the army popup qualification has you shoot 20 out of the 40 rds "any position unsupported" but their definition allows the sling even in standing

this may end up being a one sided conversation but I intend to report back what I try/ find
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg,

I hope this thread does not digress to the virtues of using a sling, but, I agree with all you have said. I'm just attempting to raise awareness for training in the unsupported prone position as a method for understanding the importance of being cognisant for the elements and factors of a steady position. Some folks here have a multitude of questions about rear bags and bipods which overlook, I think, the basic fundamentals which may be the basis of their issues. </div></div>

the thread was started "to raise awareness for unsupported prone" and went to sling vs bipod /decline in marksmanship/ records debate - all rehashed issues that nave nothing to do with the subject


To the OP I will ask again: WHAT is this strategy for shooting prone unsupported that you feel is important to practice ??????</div></div>

Shooting without artificial supports clarifies the magnitude of benefit derived from properly implementing the elements and factors into the position, that's to say, the impact they have in producing a solid positon. Beginning with artificial support however, an understanding for how properly the elements and factors of a steady position have been implemented may not be so clear. Without clarity, or worse, a poor position may be produced repeatedly leading to the need to break the habit, which will set back the beginning/novice shooter's pursuit of shooting excellence.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Sterling, as a counter point, I would argue that the slung position has easily as much risk, and probably more, for a new shooter to learn proper position. I think it probably requires some level of instruction and observation to get right. If that is the case, and the same consideration is given to the shooter learning with artificial support under skilled instruction, I think THAT shooter will develop solid fundamentals faster, become proficient faster, and with much less risk of frustration turning him off to the sport in general.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was a company commander of three different companies. I was held to account for the Height & Weight Standards, and Physical Fitness, but nothing was said about percentages of qualifications, EVEN THOUGH, qualification was don't on pop targets to 300 meters. </div></div>

Times have changed; two of the top AMU shooters are not even close to the height/weight standards. They however hammer out first place and new records so they get a pass on the military standards. So the question is are they soldiers or professional shooters?
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

One thing that may be worth keeping in mind is that for a vast majority(not all) of shooters, shooting is a hobby. I realize that there are real snipers, soldiers, etc out there(thank you all for your service), but for the rest of us it is a hobby. I know many people like to think about how ready they will be when the SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, or whatever, but in reality we are probably no more likely to use the shooting skills we develop to save lives, defend freedom, etc, than the guy who spends his free time getting really good at golf(or bowling, softball,fantasy football, etc)using his skills for the same.

I like to think that I'm a pretty good shooter. I carry a handgun for protection of myself and family, and try to stay proficient with it. I shoot tons of NRA Highpower type of competition and have gotten fairly decent at it. Not setting the world on fire good, but solid. Still have lots I want to do with it. I got into it because I wanted to shoot competitively and HP was really the only type of matches going on in my area, so it won by default. I am completely hooked on it now and can't see ever giving it up. I hardly ever shoot scoped rifles anymore. Personally, I just don't find it as rewarding or challenging. I believe the skills learned in HP shooting do transfer directly to any other style of shooting in that it is mainly just fundamental marksmanship. Generally-speaking, I can do pretty well in any style shooting with the skills I've developed in HP, whether a coat and sling is involved or not. Learning how to shoot well with sling and irons has made me a much better shooter with a bipod and scope. That said, if my end goal was to be a good scope & bipod shooter, it would have made a lot more sense just to work on that. HP-type shooting can do a lot to make someone a well-rounded shooter, but the gear and positions are mostly useless outside of the sport. If you want to be a great tactical shooter there are a lot better ways to spend your time than getting Distinguished Rifleman badges and High Master cards.

On the off chance that there is ever a need for me to use a firearm to defend my family or property, I can assure you that I will not put on my Creedmoor Hardback and sling up the ol' Palma rifle.....
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, as a counter point, I would argue that the slung position has easily as much risk, and probably more, for a new shooter to learn proper position. I think it probably requires some level of instruction and observation to get right. If that is the case, and the same consideration is given to the shooter learning with artificial support under skilled instruction, I think THAT shooter will develop solid fundamentals faster, become proficient faster, and with much less risk of frustration turning him off to the sport in general.</div></div>

I think you are right; however, even with coaching, introducing the sling to a beginning shooter can be quite frustrating for both the coach and shooter. When the position is initally build with bone alone the shooter can concentrate on the elements and factors without distraction. BTW, this is not a unsupported vs. supported arguement. I am meerly suggesting the beginner begin with bone alone; thereafter, with a basis of understanding, the shooter will do better whatever the venue demands, with or without aids.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

When somebody tells me way one of providing a steady shooting position is better, my first thought is "better than what?".

Bone-only support is the 'What".

Greg
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

To the OP I will ask again: WHAT is this strategy for shooting prone unsupported that you feel is important to practice ??????</div></div>

Shooting without artificial supports clarifies the magnitude of benefit derived from properly implementing the elements and factors into the position, that's to say, the impact they have in producing a solid positon. Beginning with artificial support however, an understanding for how properly the elements and factors of a steady position have been implemented may not be so clear. Without clarity, or worse, a poor position may be produced repeatedly leading to the need to break the habit, which will set back the beginning/novice shooter's pursuit of shooting excellence.
</div></div> here lots of big words are beautifully used - but no actual information on the skill is provided



LL was right on, you start the thread, but do not respond in a meaningful way:

actually answering a question that was asked (even after quoting it)

or any other real addition to the discussion

you just come back every so often and restate -------the same thing--------

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

. When the position is initally build with bone alone the shooter can concentrate on the elements and factors without distraction. BTW, this is not a unsupported vs. supported arguement. I am meerly suggesting the beginner begin with bone alone; thereafter, with a basis of understanding, the shooter will do better whatever the venue demands, with or without aids. </div></div>

here again you restate the same thing - without adding any details - of this skill that you feel is so important


you built it up - generated the interest - have the audience - so give the instruction
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaeger308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was a company commander of three different companies. I was held to account for the Height & Weight Standards, and Physical Fitness, but nothing was said about percentages of qualifications, EVEN THOUGH, qualification was don't on pop targets to 300 meters. </div></div>

Times have changed; two of the top AMU shooters are not even close to the height/weight standards. They however hammer out first place and new records so they get a pass on the military standards. So the question is are they soldiers or professional shooters? </div></div>

there has always been fudging and exceptions to weight/ PT standards, when it benefited those doing the enforcement - just maybe not with the shooting teams

it is no mystery that a heavier person is a more stable shooting platform in offhand and the powers that be want the team to win - so details are overlooked/ exceptions made
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If service rifle wanted to get real, body armor and helmets would be the main requirement so the skill set learned would better translate to actual conditions </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">
^ The single most worthwhile line in this entire retarded thread.</span>
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If service rifle wanted to get real, body armor and helmets would be the main requirement so the skill set learned would better translate to actual conditions</div></div>

The "combat phase" of the service rifle matches do just that. Full gear, plus arms room weapons. Also the team members have to be from the same unit.

There is a two mile run prior to firing the Infantry Trophy Match. (One of my favorite rifle matches).
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Here is the question for Sterling, time for a little new guy instruction.

New Shooter, right handed, buys a new rifle, with a AX Chassis. The Chassis has the ability to mount his new TAB Gear Sling in 1 of 3 places.

1. Under the stock

2. Right side of the rifle

3 Left side of the rifle

Where should the new right handed shooter mount the sling attachment point and why ? He plans on practicing his sling supported shooting with it.

And just to be clear, here is an image of the chassis itself, so there is no confusion. The rail allows him to move the sling attachment point almost 360 degrees around that fore-end so you can instruction him on where to mount the sling anyway you like.

590750.jpg
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

New shooter who can afford to buy a $1400 AX stock can probably buy instruction.

Course buying capability doesn't mean you know how to use it.

I've seen African sentries pulling guard duty with an AI on their shoulder without a minute of sniper training.

Just sayin'.

smile.gif
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">New shooter who can afford to buy an AX stock will probably buy instruction.

Course buying capability doesn't mean you know how to use it.

Just sayin'.

smile.gif
</div></div>

While I would almost agree,

I know that locally here, they sell a lot of new guys 5Rs and then put them in chassis. Right out of the gate, so it's prior to any classes and not a whole lot of classes available in the snow. Positional they can at least practice dry indoors.

In fact I zeroed one for a guy this past week. He was new, I happened to be at the indoor range when he was, and I helped him get it set up and zeroed. It was his first precision rifle and was put in the AICS for him right away by the shop. I did not notice if they sold him a sling but I never saw one.

It's a pretty simple question, still I sort of expected the distraction and deviation from it.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know that locally here, <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">they sell a lot of new guys 5Rs and then put them in chassis. Right out of the gate, so it's prior to any classes and not a whole lot of classes available in the sno</span>w. </span>Positional they can at least practice dry indoors.

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">In fact I zeroed one for a guy this past week. He was new, I happened to be at the indoor range when he was, and I helped him get it set up and zeroed. It was his first precision rifle and was put in the AICS for him right away by the sh</span>op.</span></div></div>

I apologize for the distraction in advance, but buying or building the gun, and having to have someone else zero it doesn't mean the buyer has the faintest idea of what his weapon will do whether it was an off-the-rack build or the most expensive custom with top-of-the-line components. Shooting it off a bipod, benchrest, or sling would be irrelevant -- he wouldn't know the diff.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Okay, I guess there is a point there,

I suppose it hasn't occurred to anyone that a lot of guys buy the rifle and don't really consider classes because of the time and expense of traveling to said class.

I will say this shop sells a ton of DTAs to new shooter with no instruction. They can afford the better package, and will do a DTA from soup to nuts without any prior instruction or training, in a lot of cases, these people buying the rifle have never owned a precision rifle before. Still they spend $6k for the DTA and another $2k on a scope. This is pretty common.

Now to clarify, when I said I zeroed his rifle, I more or less helped, in fact he wanted me to shoot the first out of the rifle ever and I declined. I shot it only after, the zero was set for him.

Still, I read a lot of advocation in here to, "not fear the sling" and to practicing sling shooting first, and to get comfortable using a sling before a bipod. So if a shooter read this, and believed the concept was sound as explained by advocates, well the idea they wouldnt' know what was happening or the difference sort of flies in the face.

I submit again, that very few shooters have access to local instruction. And instruction anywhere is costly. Most start off spending that money on the system.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigger Monkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight isn't there the possibility for two answers there depending on the shooter's preferences?</div></div>

Possibility for 3 answers... I suppose it moot point now anyway.

It simply doesn't matter, they wouldnt' know the difference no matter where the sling was.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Frank, that is the beauty of being able to hire a Subject Matter Expert like you, Sterling, Kraig, etc. -- you've turned in more than one set of Deuce Gear and you CAN get the best performance out of cherry than he believes he can get.

All about being able to observe-assess-detect-and correct a noob. Huge market out there for people who want to improve.

Lazy or inexperienced man will buy gear and wonder why he can't shoot like a rock star. Crawl-walk-run. Once you've got him nailing sub-half MOA groups at 300-500-600 off a bipod you can swipe his Harris and bag from him and move to the next step. Once he's a bad-ass on his belly get him on his ass, knees, and then on his feet. Then add movement and terrain.

Lots of opportunity to improve.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

True, I've been to competitions where I watched guys shooting in the sitting position while their TIS or TAB sling flapped in the breeze. I've also seen guys with slings mounted in all manner of ways trying to use it so I guess it goes back to you don't know what you don't know.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Personally I'd tell him to buy a 1907 style sling and find a rifle to fit, that sucker is ugly.

Maybe something in the lines of a Model 70 in a wood Marksman Stock.

Just sayin'

It's been said, and I agree, I'm so 60s-70s.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

The proper implemention of the elements and factors of a steady position, it seems to me, cannot be fully recognized when the novice shooter begins his marksmanship journey with a bipod and rear bag. Shooting from the unsupported position will reveal, with practice, the importance for muscular relaxation, bone support, and NPA; as well as the need for consistent stockweld, elbow placement, grip, butt-to-shoulder, and non-firing hand placement. Perhaps some others here have thought about this step to becoming a "good shot" being somewhat overlooked.

</div></div>

I disagree! Given a Novice shooter the first thing I attempt to do is remove all possible variables to the attainment of perfect sight alignment and picture. To accomplish this I have them set up on the steadiest rest available.
This way I can show them what they are striving for when the variables are incrementally introduced. It shows them that the sighting system works and how and that the object is to first shoot for consistancy ( groups) It also shows them what the particular system is capable of in order to eliminate any doubt in the shooters mind as to the cause of unsatisfactory shot placement on the target. Once the novice can produce acceptable results in this (laboratory) environment I can be reasonably confident that they understand the basic concept. At this point all or specific variables are integrated depending on the desired activity.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the question for Sterling, time for a little new guy instruction.

New Shooter, right handed, buys a new rifle, with a AX Chassis. The Chassis has the ability to mount his new TAB Gear Sling in 1 of 3 places.

1. Under the stock

2. Right side of the rifle

3 Left side of the rifle

Where should the new right handed shooter mount the sling attachment point and why ? He plans on practicing his sling supported shooting with it.

And just to be clear, here is an image of the chassis itself, so there is no confusion. The rail allows him to move the sling attachment point almost 360 degrees around that fore-end so you can instruction him on where to mount the sling anyway you like.

</div></div>

You just described my setup. I'd like to hear the correct answer.
Thanks.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Not to get into pee pee contest but a few things,

I started into High Power to improve my position shooting and wind reading as I was already serving as a sniper in SWAT. I found some of the marksmanship ideas great but the coats and gear where not geared for field use. I adopted Match Rifle slings to work in the field by dumping leather which sucks and going with far better for field work nylon. Made it quick on and off. Made it so I did not have to twist myself like a pretzle to get into and out of it. Then made rear of sling so I could use as drag strap or carry across my shoulders for long walks in woods. That became the Quick Cuff

Since then I have made several other new slings. TAB has come along and made another field precision shooting sling that works very well as well. The TAB and TIS designs where designed for Field Work and will outlast the shooter, while working great for precision shooting. The Old 1907 design is just that OLD and not as good for precision work as any of the TAB or TIS Designs. 1907 was a long time ago and time to let move on.

Now I see no reason a new shooter has to start in High Power for field work. It wont hurt but not an absolute must. I would send guy to F TR Class first and then teach them sling shooting as it applies to field work not twisted feet in a forty pound coat. I see a better way to teach field work than working around the Across Course screewed up rules. Such as you can use a 25lbs AR with Leather sling it was never issued with.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAT 4-82</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

The proper implemention of the elements and factors of a steady position, it seems to me, cannot be fully recognized when the novice shooter begins his marksmanship journey with a bipod and rear bag. Shooting from the unsupported position will reveal, with practice, the importance for muscular relaxation, bone support, and NPA; as well as the need for consistent stockweld, elbow placement, grip, butt-to-shoulder, and non-firing hand placement. Perhaps some others here have thought about this step to becoming a "good shot" being somewhat overlooked.

</div></div>

I disagree! Given a Novice shooter the first thing I attempt to do is remove all possible variables to the attainment of perfect sight alignment and picture. To accomplish this I have them set up on the steadiest rest available.
This way I can show them what they are striving for when the variables are incrementally introduced. It shows them that the sighting system works and how and that the object is to first shoot for consistancy ( groups) It also shows them what the particular system is capable of in order to eliminate any doubt in the shooters mind as to the cause of unsatisfactory shot placement on the target. Once the novice can produce acceptable results in this (laboratory) environment I can be reasonably confident that they understand the basic concept. At this point all or specific variables are integrated depending on the desired activity. </div></div>

BIG +1

Took three pages, MAT 4-82 has the best post on the topic of novice shooters getting started.

Mike I have been using a TIS for some time now on my bolt rifles great advancement in design for real field work, using one in the photo back a page or so. I still use a leather on my M1A just because.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

To grasp the principles of marksmanship, which is THE first thing, clearly, there is good reason to shoot from a sandbag support, to allow students the opportunity to completely focus on executing the two firing tasks, without being challenged to make their position steady. Yet, even though the elements and factors of a steady position might be assimilated from the sandbag support, since the sandbag can mask a position not built with proper bone engagement, it does not indicate the student has learned how to build a steady position.

In this thread, I am making a suggestion to self trained folks, who have not experienced bone alone, that to TRY it may reveal to them the role of bone in building a solid position. Without this understanding of the role of bone, these self taught shooters will continue to have problems with how to use bipods and rear bags, since they simply do not know how to make these devices coexist with the bone to ground relationship, which must exist with minimal muscle before the shooter relaxes into the artificial support for the best results.

When artificial supports do not complement bone, or when bone is in conflict with artifical devices, the rifle will likely need be muscled to maintain the sight picture, which diminishes the desired result of hitting exactly where aimed.

 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Makes sense. Why now call it "Oh shit" CombatSupport, or Improvised Support, when you have to hit him now support, which is basically what it is. Making the best of a bad situation. No reason not to learn and practise this
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Here is a lesson found on Youtube with Jacob explaining how to set up the sling.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EcGcN7t1oHw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I think when you are addressing people who are admittedly self taught, the better path to take is to actually show them or explain the process rather than just use words like bone support. An example of this would be explaining to someone that using bone support means getting the support arm directly under the rifle and not being out of line in any way. <span style="font-style: italic">(as noted in Jacob's explanation)</span>

Self trained folks have one disadvantage which causes the biggest issue, when there is no detail, they will fill in the blanks themselves. The more detail you can provide the less blanks for them to potentially fill in ---usually incorrectly.

Quoting text verbatim, with explaining or repeating one line from manuals written a long time ago leaves a lot for interpretation. If you think you are reading or seeing a problem, my advice would be to offer a solution that goes beyond copying and pasting the elements of a steady position. If you can't show it, I recommend explaining it in more detail than 1 sentence repeated as often as possible with the same words.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

Good video, but then again but then again, from other videos I've seen of Jacob, he's an excellent instructor.

What Jacob points out, whether he met to or not, is you don't have to use a coat and glove to use the sling.

Two points I would like to point out, the buckle under his left had should be down farther toward the tail of the sling, this prevents the discomfort of the buckle on the back of the hand.

I like my sling a bit tighter, so the stock has to be forced into the shoulder, that way, you should be able to work the bolt without the stock moving around in the shoulder.

In position shooter, you may find your sling would require different lengths for different positions, for example my setting/kneeling sling is shorter then my prone.

But, one should carry the rifle with the sling set for the most common position you may encounter.

Sure in shooting a match I'll use different lengths, but when hunting or if there is a possibility I may not be able to get in the prone, I carry the sling set up for the kneeling position, which is the most common I position I use in hunting.

Contrary to what many have said here, the 1907, though old, is still an excellent sling. I use it just about all my shooting (excluding standing), that is hunting, and that's the way I had my Sniper Rifle set up with I was in LE.

Its fast, and if used right will steady any position from any rest.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

It was my rifle and my hand does not reach the buckle... I tend to back on the stock more as my arms are shorter.

As I said,

providing details and instruction is better than repeating the same thing over and over again.
 
Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good video, but then again but then again, from other videos I've seen of Jacob, he's an excellent instructor.

Contrary to what many have said here, the 1907, though old, is still an excellent sling.</div></div>
I have attended two precision rifle courses with Jacob. I have yet to see an instructor (of any topic) who engages his audience better. He could keep people riveted on step-by-step details of how to change a vacuum cleaner bag. Or tying your shoes. Or picking your nose. Or....

IMO, one of Jacob's best strength's is his willingness to continue his own learning process. He doesn't seem to be tied to dogmatic beliefs or techniques. Yes, he knows what has worked well for most shooters, but he has shown a willingness to observe and test techniques we students brought into the class. Granted, most of our "bright ideas" weren't so bright, but we did get the opportunity to present alternatives.

In both Rifles Only courses we shot with and without slings from multiple positions, including numerous improvised (i.e. less than optimal support) positions. In many of the improvised positions, bipods and bags provided minimal -- if any -- advantage. Both Jacob and his instructors emphasized adapting the basics (natural point of aim, sight alignment, fundamentals of marksmanship) regardless of whether we were prone with bipod and bag, or scrambling to get comfy with a "WTF" position on a berm, culvert, log, or the mousetrap.

If my experience with RO is any indication of where rifle technique and marksmanship is headed, we are moving forwards -- not backwards.

As for a modern sling (TAB) versus the old style (Turner), I have TABs on all my rifles now and the Turner is sitting in the basement collecting dust. IMO there comes a time to move on.