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Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Pointman308

Pointman308

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 6, 2011
617
84
49
Idaho
My brother and I currently own Savage 10 HS Precsions in .308. We have owned them for about 4 years and they are laser beams(both of them). The problem we have had with them is that once we have shot our handloads through them about 3 to 4 times and after necksizing them only, the shoulders start to touch inside the chamber making it hard to close the bolt. I do a full length resize on them and they are still too tight. I have also used small base dies and got the same resutlts. I am considering taking a little off the bottom of my resizing die. Are there any Savage shooters out there with the same problem and if so, what say you................?
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I think most shooters have the shoulder issue after a 4/5 firings. On my Savage FCP-K it happened and I just Full Length sized. How are you setting up your FL die? It sounds like you are not bumping the shoulder. You need to spin the die in an extra 1/2 or 3/4 of a turn past where it contacts the shell holder to get adequate shoulder bump. Or get a redding body die.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I am putting a lot of pressure on my shell holder and die already to the point of destruction and I have done it with both RCBS and Hornady dies.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Sounds to me like its time to trim. Get a caliper and see what the fired brass is running, I bet its out of spec.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My brother and I currently own Savage 10 HS Precsions in .308. We have owned them for about 4 years and they are laser beams(both of them). The problem we have had with them is that once we have shot our handloads through them about 3 to 4 times and after necksizing them only, the shoulders start to touch inside the chamber making it hard to close the bolt. I do a full length resize on them and they are still too tight. I have also used small base dies and got the same resutlts. I am considering taking a little off the bottom of my resizing die. Are there any Savage shooters out there with the same problem and if so, what say you................? </div></div>

My 10FP LE2b from '05 has a pretty much standard, but tightish (headspace) chamber and I don't have problems bumping the shoulders back with my Redding body die, or any of the other 308 dies I have.

If you're using a SS press, it might be easier to just take some of the bottom of top off of the shell holder, but I use a Dillon 550b with shell plates and it's not easy to do, so on one of my dies, I had to 'file' off the bottom and it works well, if not a bit slow going, since the dies are hardened steel on their surfaces.

Chris
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

You are actually better off buying a set of shell holders from Redding - height is different.

...or...

Instead of modifying your die, just take a thousandths or two off of the top of the shell holder. You are accomplishing the same thing.

$6 shell holder is a lot cheaper than a sizing die.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

You need a head space comparator, like the one from Hornady; this will enable you to measure the length from the rim to the shoulder. Check the length on your fired brass, then adjust the die to reduce this by .002. If the brass is still tight, then measure a case that feeds well in order to a spec to size to.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

A head space comporator wont do me any good when I am resizing them all the way already and they are still too tight. I will be buying some different shell holders from Redding though and try that out. I didn't not know they were a differents size, thanks.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Pointman. how do you know you are actually resizing anything without the headspace comparator. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. Why would you buy different shell holders if you already resized them all the way?
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Because I have been in the practice of shooting them until they are too tight and then doing a rull length resize. It might be kind of a beginners thing, but thats the way we have done it for a while. I am not saying I dont want to use a head space comparator, I am saying it does not matter because the shoulder still hits after a full length resize anyway. I am trying to fix the problem, but I am not going to buy anymore factory brass. I am trying to get the brass I have to be withing .003 of touching the shoulder. They only reason I think I have been resizing is because I run the brass all the way up on my reszing die and I dont have a shoulder comparorater yet, but I have one on the way. Hope this makes sense.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Nope it doesnt. If you dont know whar you are at how do you know what you are or arent setting the shoulder back? Buying the redding shell holder set that starts at stock and gets .002 LONGER each shell holder will help you none. You need to sand the top of the shell holder to get the brass to go farther into the die. I personaly would ditch the neck sizing dies all together. Neck sizing only works if you index the shell the same way in the chamber every time. I full length resize everything. So do alot of 1000yd shooters
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

What is the total length of you fired brass? I take my Lapua down to 2.005 to get them to fit in 2 of my Savages, one is the 10-110 and the other is a full custom with a Savage action both using the same load. I have had this exact problem with my .338 thinking it was my body die. Brass was just too long.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I have heard about indexing with neck sizing before, but never gave it much credibility. How many shots to you normally get out of a single piece of brass sizing it with just a full length resizer?
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Depends on the caliber My 338 lapua brass is on its 8th loading. my 223 brass in my national match rifle gets reloaded 12 to 14 times a season then thrown out and new brass for next season. 6.5-06 gets 17 to 18 reloads till the necks split. I reload 06 5 times and discard for my garands. 15-20 times in my 03a3. bout 9 loads on 300 win mag. Alot more factors contribute to good brass life than just fl sizing.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

The theory of neck sizing is that its a perfect cast of your chambe but this is only true if the case is inserted in EXACTLY the same orientation as it came out upon firing. A full length sized case only bumped .001 or .002 with minimum runout will do just as well as a neck sized case at least out to 1k in my experience. And the added bonus is it will always function in the rifle.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Unless your turning your necks weight sorting brass and bullets weighing powder to to the kernel uniforming and truing everything you will never see a benefit to neck only sizing and doubtful if youll see it then
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

As far as brass life goes use a redding s die with no expander ball or send a forster benchrest die and 4 of your fired cases back to forster and have the neck reamed for .002 neck tension and then dont load real hot so your primer pockets dont stretch and brass lives a long time.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

So I kind of feel like we are beating around the bush here. What is the best way for me to bump these shoulders back after I get my shoulder comparator based upon the fact that these dies wont do it? Get different shell holder or grind the dies or shell holder?
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Guys, He is not smart enough to answer a simple question about how long his brass is. What makes us think he actually set up his dies right to begin with. There are way to many people in the last year or so that have started to reload and they should be just buying their ammo.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I am with you Tomme.

Turn the die 1/2 to 3/4 turn after it touches the shell holder? WTH. Wouldn't the case headspace determine where you set your die.

Someone needs an education on headspace and how the die maintains it. If you listen to some of this advice your brass is going to start seperating down by the head. Do yourself a favor, Buy a comparator of some sort. The Hornady stuff works as good as anything. when you learn how to set up your dies where you have .001 to .002 headspace clearance after every sizing operation then you can worry about neck tension annealing and all that other cool stuff.

Watch this please

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P-UrMTyJ1_E"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P-UrMTyJ1_E" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Okay, since we are starting with the insults and I dont know why, I'm going to break this down to you like my old drill Sgt. used to say...Barney Style. I know what a headspace comparator is; I GOT IT! The problem is the head space on my rifle and apparently all lot of the other savages with at least stock barrels on is turned down to the very minimum. Turned down so tight that when doing a FULL length(I repeat) FULL length resize the brass still closes to tight against the shoulders in our rifles. I understand that you want to measure your head space....GOT IT! The problem is even if I could measure the headspace right now, it would not do me any good becaused I cant make the fucking brass fit in the fucking gun the right way. GET IT. I am not a first year reloader, but I do admit I have a lot to learn. So if there is someone out there with a solution to my problem, (probably other people that own my same model of gun like the heading to this thread says) I would like to know how you overcame the problem. Now I know that there are a lot of smart people on this site and I know that there is an answer. If you feel compelled to insult that really doesnt help. If you have an answer and dont mind giving it, then great I really appreciate it. The die is bigger inside than my rifle chamber, This is what I am thinking. Please someone for the Love of Pete come up with an answer without trying to insult or make your self sound smarter than you really are. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT!
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Tomme Boy-Do you mean over all length or from the shoulders with a head space comparator?
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I think he's talking about OAL from head to case mouth.

A FL die should size the case to min cartridge headspace. The problem may be the case mouth, not the headspace.

Your manual should give you your trim length, if not, let me know and I'll dig it up for you.

Edit: And I didn't even call anyone a sombitch...
smile.gif


 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Thanks, I have trimmed to length already and it doesnt help. The problem is the headspace is a minimum on these rifles. I never had the problem with my Rem700.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Length good, Check!

Smoke a cartridge case and run it through the chamber. That will tell you if the shoulder is contacting the chamber.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

My experience with 10FP .308 chambers was that the throats tend to be on the short side. It was this factor that tended to be the critical issue, where 'OughtabeOK' OALs were too long.

We couldn't chamber a loaded round, went the "well gee, the case shoulder/necks/Good God it's SOMETHING must be too long" route, same as you, got similar outcomes. It was counterintuitive, and escaped us for quite some time.

But the problem was with the seating depths.

We determined this by checking the chambered/extracted/unfired rounds for rifling marks on the bullets. If you find them, and they are quite distinct, try seating you bullets a bit deeper.

Otherwise, I'm as baffled as you are.

BTW, I am still a big fan of Savage rifles, but I no longer own any .308's, of any brand.

Greg
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

i have never had this issue with any barrel on a savage

you need the tools to measure what you have....
measuring chamber specs is easy with the right tools

also on a savage you can adjust your headspace .... if you had the tools to measure it..
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Be nice if they could borrow a go/no-go gauge set for a quick check of head space of both guns.

Topstrap
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Easy and cheaper than buying more crap is to send 3 fired cases and one of your full length dies back to the maker. They will fix or replace it with one that will work in your rifle. JMHO
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

One other thing to check that happens on rare occasion is the decapping pin can bet set too far down and the tip of the expander ball is hitting the bottom web of the case, causing the die to bottom out and not fully resize. You can do two things. Take the decapping assembly completely out of the die and resize a couple of cases, or back the decapping pin assembly off some. The decapping pin should only protrude out to the thicknesses of two Pennies or so. It's worth a try.

I have two tight chambered rifles that have to have the shoulders bumped back to near minimum. My RCBS, Forster and Redding dies will all do it. I think there's something else going on here.

Getting the bump gauges should help in seeing what the issue is.

If you can't figure it out send the die back with fired cases that FNP recommended.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I've worked with a few Savage factory barrels and while they do tend to be on the shorter side of headspace, they shouldn't be giving you this kind of trouble. I really don't think the problem is likely to be related to the brand of gun so much as a questionable set of dies.

The problem is you are going to have a hard time quantifying what the dies are doing, other than 'not working', without the right measuring tools (headspace comparator). You're right in saying that if the dies are already screwed all the way in, that the comparator won't change anything. But at that point a) you have some ammo (info, data points) in confronting the die manufacturer about their product and b) if you decided to modify the shell holder (recommended over modifying the die) you have some idea of 'how much'. And c) these are tools that really should be a part of your kit for F/L sizing anyway.

Flight may be onto something in that it may be something related to the decapping stem. I haven't seen one screwed out so far as to cause the kind of problem he describes, but I have seen it where a factory expander ball in a regular F/L die may drag enough to literally 'pull' the shoulder forward a bit when exiting the case neck. There are different solutions for that, if it happens to be the case. But strip the die down to just the body and the lock ring and see if that makes any changes in the results you are getting.

Monte
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Just got back in from coyote hunting. I'll try doing this with a die. I dont really run the decapper very far down, but Ill take a look at this. I have actually consider sending a die into Hornady with some fired brass to have them forge me a die just for my rifle.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

OK, now that we have the OAL of the brass an that is OK. Tell us exactly how you set up your FL die. Did you just screw it down till it hit the shell holder?If you set it up this way, try this.

Take a lubed piece of brass and run it up into the die. Now, This is the hard part. Look under the die between the shell holder and die. Is there a gap?use a flash light on the opposite side to flash back towards you. If you see light shining between the shell holder and the die, screw the die down a little more and size the piece of brass again.

Now, take that piece of brass and chamber it. Does it still do as you are saying. If it does, Repeat the above.

Just because you set the die to touch a shell holder, it might not be the right way to set a die. Every chamber is different.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I bring the die down until its putting pressure on the shell holder and it still is not bumping the shoulders. I even account for the press when it cams over when the handle get to its lowest point if you know what I mean. I'm going to go out to my gun shop and check it out when I can. Thanks
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I kind of feel like we are beating around the bush here. What is the best way for me to bump these shoulders back after I get my shoulder comparator based upon the fact that these dies wont do it? Get different shell holder or grind the dies or shell holder? </div></div>

I had the same problem, and a member here made the suggestion I'm making to you...in fact, just had it again last week with my new 7-08 barrel.

The manufacturers instructions say to screw in the sizing die until it contacts the shellplate.

It has been my experience that-usually- this is not enough to achieve .002 of shoulder bump.

Get the Hornady headspace gauge (or other similar comparator) and get a comparative measurement from several of your fireformed brass.

Then check what you're getting now when run through the sizing die.

Since it's probably doing nothing to bump the shoulder by the results you say you're getting, screw down the die until it makes contact with the shellplate.

Then lower the shellplate, and screw in the sizing die 1/2 turn FURTHER. This will cause the press to cam over hard, take out all the slack.

I was ready to send my die back to Hornady to grind until I tried this. Now, I get perfect .002 bump.

Next on my list are bushing dies. I believe the best way to re-size is with FL dies with bushings sized specifically for your chamber. Perfect neck tension, mimimal working of the brass.

If you neck-size only, the brass is only gonna keep getting larger and harder to chamber- and you're going to have to FL size eventually, anyway.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Wannashootit-my intuition tells me your right, because I know you understand what I am talking about. I am going to try it one more time. When you say shellplate I assume you mean the same thing as shell holder right? I have been puting a lot of pressure on the shell holder already, but I will give one more try.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

And for the record I have been screwing in the die until it touches the shell holder and takes the slack out of the press when it cams over and then turn it about half a turn. Then I lower the mandrill and decapping rod down intil it just barely protrudes through the flash hole on the brass. The brass is still too tight when I set it up this way.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Also, what lube are you using? And have you tried the method I posted. This seems like it is just a set up problem. My savage is the same way. That is why I am trying to tell you how to do this. If it does not work, Then you need to use the different shell holders. The small base die should have been enough to size the brass. Try it and tell us how it went.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I use Hornady Unique and have tried RCBS case lube. I dont know how I could set it up any other way than what I have attempted to explain here at least a couple of times.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

But have you looked under the die when the ram is fully topped out? If you see light between the shell holder and the bottom of the die, then it needs to be screwed down even more. Just because it is touching the shell holder when there is NO brass there, that means nothing. The press will flex even more when the brass is in there.

Just do this and tell us what you see.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Okay Ill try it in the morning and report back. I understand you a little better now.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Okay I couldnt wait till the morning. When you were questioning my intelligence earlier in this thread you lost credibility with me and I was not fully understanding what you meant. But I'll be damned if you havent figured it out and now I am eating crow. There is a little seperation after I put the piece of brass back in. I will quantify results with my regular full length sizing die in the morning. I tested it on the small base die. I want to test it on my regular sizing die in the morning. Thank You for your help and patience.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Its just fucking hard to communicate about this shit on a computer. Thanks Everyone for your help.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Ok..how about a picture of a piece of SIZED brass as you are currently sizing.

With a black sharpie, please apply the ink to:

Bottom of neck
Entire shoulder
1/4" down the body below the shoulder/body datum line
1/4" on the body...from the casehead

Let the ink dry, lube the case as normal, size the case as you currently do, and post pictures. Overall, then closeup of neck/shoulder/body, and the base of the case.
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

Or, size a piece of brass with your current setup. Check if the sized brass will chamber in your rifle.

No? Unlock the die locking ring, turn the die down 1/8 turn, lock die in place, size the brass, and try to chamber.

Continue adjusting 1/8 turn of the die until the brass chambers.

Report back.....
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

You'll find that just another 1/12th turn in the die will give you the bump you need. It's actually a fine adjustment once you get the die turned in enough past just touching the shell holder and getting the spring out of the press. Your sizing lube will make a difference also. Get rid of the RCBS shit and try some imperial sizing wax. Even Kiwi Mink oil in the tin will work better than the RCBS stuff.

There are some people here that know what they're talking about. Try some A1 sauce on the Crow. By the way Forrest, we were getting a little frustrated with you too.
grin.gif
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay I couldnt wait till the morning. When you were questioning my intelligence earlier in this thread you lost credibility with me and I was not fully understanding what you meant. But I'll be damned if you havent figured it out and now I am eating crow. There is a little seperation after I put the piece of brass back in. I will quantify results with my regular full length sizing die in the morning. I tested it on the small base die. I want to test it on my regular sizing die in the morning. Thank You for your help and patience. </div></div>

So you understand chamber headspace but didn't understnd what case headspace was.
grin.gif
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wannashootit-my intuition tells me your right, because I know you understand what I am talking about. I am going to try it one more time. When you say shellplate I assume you mean the same thing as shell holder right? I have been puting a lot of pressure on the shell holder already, but I will give one more try. </div></div>

Yeah...all presses operate differently, I use a LNL Progressive- on which there is a multi-station shellplate that raises and lowers/rotates while the dies remain in fixed stations above.

"Contact" only will not bump shoulders at all, in my experience. Too much "give" in the components. However your particular press is set up, screw the die down in increments past contact, comparing to your fireformed brass with a headspace gauge until you get the bump you want (.001-.002 for most of us).
 
Re: Fellow Savage Shooters need feedback

I have my head space guage in hand and I am bumping my shoulders back .002. All is well in Idaho except for the coyotes.
 
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