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Prone- Slung and Biopod

1

1SMALLJOHNSON

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 8, 2007
403
4
Tallahassee, FLORIDA
I've been thinking quite a bit about the resurgence of prone shooting. It sure beats the jackwagons who go to the range and sit at a bench, shoot their rifle off a tripod or bipod and claim that they were practicing marksmanship.

Hey, I'm guilty too. Sometimes my truck is filled with guns, ammo, a tripod and a bag. Ewwww! That's not shooting. That's.....wuss. If I lay on the ground, I might get dirty. I might hurt myself. What happens if I get uncomfortable? It's so much easier to sit on this bench here and "sight in my rifle".....

I was pleased to see a gentleman seeking to improve himself by shooting off a bipod...prone. Attaboy! He's out there, it's cold out, he's wearing gloves, he's working on improving his capabilities. That's a great thing to see.

We've seen a huge buying spree, AR's flying off the shelves. Great! Let's get those people involved. Teach them about marksmanship. Start them out on the bench, but rapidly transition them to "real" shooting.

How many folks on this board actually know how to use a 1907 leather sling? If you head to the range with a bipod, and you're seeking ways to improve your marksmanship, I'd encourage you to pick up either a 1907 sling or an Armageddon Gear Precision Rifle sling. If you've never shot with a sling, it's enlightening. It's more stable than a bipod during recoil. It's easier to stay on target. As opposed to a bipod, the sling is multi-functional. You carry the gun with it, and you use it to stabilize your platform.

Then again, there's perfect legitimacy with bipod shooters. They've got to understand how to tame recoil. Great! Let's get them into the fray too!

Get down on the belly, and off the darn bench. Get into real shooting!

I'd propose that we set up a sub-directory in Basic Marksmanship/Hide to teach folks how to use a sling and how to shoot off the belly with a bipod. Hell, maybe the thread already exists, but I've not seen it...

Please let us all know how many folks are interested in this kind of information.

1smalljohnson
 
There are a few sling shooters around here, myself included. However most are FAR more knowledgeable than me.
 
I'm one of those bench shooting jackwagons, but not by personal choice.

I do what I can do, and the permanent consequences of shoulder injury makes the proper use of a sling and prone shooting physically impossible. I miss it dearly, but I still like to shoot, and for me, the bench is it. It is something I did really well and which gave me great satisfaction.

All I would say is that I sincerely hope that physical shortcomings never arise that might to force you to eat your words, as they have done for me.

Greg
 
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I would and I have, but I also think there are better teachers out there. My life is in its winding down phase, and its central impetus is based on simplifying that life and concentrating more on family.

These days, I'm sinking most of my marksmanship teaching efforts into bringing my Grandkids up to speed as "thinking shooters" who can grasp a situation and wring out a better solution to its inherent issues. I teach theory only when it is necessary to finding such solutions.

The key emphasis is in developing basic skills, finding their limits, and expanding those limits as need and genuine interest demand ala the requirements of the MOL or "Manager of Learning Experiences" technique.

A sling is just another tool, to be learned and mastered. When I use(d) one, my preference is/was for the cotton Garand/M-14 sling.

It forms the basis of a solid NPA, providing the kind of additional artificial support that takes the main load off the muscles.

But it doesn't work for me anymore, because my joints just don't have the requisite flexibility. My left Humerus was broken in a fall on ice, and the shoulder joint is very limited in its range of motion. I have spent nearly the last decade trying to increase that range with very little benefit. My left forearm simply can no longer attain a vertical position beneath the rifle's forearm. The best I can achieve is with the elbow approximately 20-30 degrees off to the left, and that's not productive.

So I shoot from the bench, and since I can, I use the rest, and not the bipod, most. I shoot a Savage .30BR in FV-250 Open, and a Stag Super Varminter off the bipod for FV250 F T/R. Our Club venue allows a separate scoring category for bench shooters and it is a Godsend for us more mature and less flexible shooters; permitting us to stay pretty much in the game.

Greg
 
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This is just a habit of mine due to what is required of the CG for shooting rifle but when doing our basic rifle qual course, doing prone, sitting and standing we have to use either the sling loop or parade sling methods. We dont get the fancy slings for our m16 for this either, just the issued green canvas or nylon slings. Works just fine!
 
The more tactical matches I shoot, the fewer opportunities I see for shooting prone. Granted, we aren't shooting off a bench (unless it is being used as a barricade), but we are not shooting prone all that much either.

Prone is great for working on fundamentals, but getting off the ground really puts them to the test.
 
"How many folks on this board actually know how to use a 1907 leather sling? "

I got some perty good ideas what to do wiff one of 'dem critters.
 
When I suggest to the folks who are buying AR's today, that a little bit of training could get them off to a really good start with their AR's, their eyes just glaze over. Although, by the way they shoulder their new AR's, it's clear they no nothing about marksmanship, they have no interest. They do not think there's anything to learn. They perceive marksmanship is nothing more than execution of the two firing tasks.

What these folks are interested in is dressing up their AR's with inferior components to replace the superior factory installed hand guards, butt stocks, and grip on the rifle. They say they want something more comfortable; yet, these folks don't know that the comfort concept which is really meaningful is the one tied to the elements of a steady position. Revealing things like this to them you would believe would make them question some of the stuff they are placing on their AR's; but no, it does not. They leave the store with their new AR's happy, but, unaware of how to use their BDC's, how to zero, what a BSZ is and why it might be useful. They leave not knowing their sight's can be used for simple rangefinding. And, they leave without understanding sight alignment or trigger control. This assures though that they'll be back to the store to buy a scope to replace the BDC, since it's certain they will not hit anything with their iron sights.

Once they've got a scope and a bipod, they're in business. Talking to these folks about slings, Service Rifle Competitions, or the pleasure of developing marksmanship to keep things interesting is now just wasted effort better spent on the rare person who actually asks, " hey, BTW, do you know where I can get some training to actually learn how to shoot this thing?" These are usually critical thinkers who do know that they don't know.

The bottom line is some folks just don't have the interest or discipline for me to want to even suggest to them they might realize more success by slinging up than using the bipod. It is a waste of my time. And my time being the most precious thing I have these days, the only folks I'm going to help sling up are the ones who come to me with the desire to learn about it.
 
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SS- I can always count on you to provide valuable insight. Maybe what we need is "shiny" objects to show the new shooters. Something to catch their eye, let them know that there's more out there than vertical forend grips and flashlights? How do we promote marksmanship "bling"?
 
once upon a time there was a good video from a highpower sight on sling use. Creedmore Sports has basic video dealing with mainly high power stuff that has them (I don't know if you can link here I am kind a new). I live so far from the nearest range most of my shooting is prone. If I am really lazy I just lay on a piece of cardboard, but most of the time, I am laying in the dirt. Sometimes and I know the whole fulcrum theory, I even use a ruck. To be honest, sling pressure will change the poi a little, especially for new shooters without proper instruction.
 
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The marksmanship bling which appears to inspire many are found within the NRA Qualification Awards Programs. These programs award progress medals to keep the shooter interested. Since marksmanship development is seen as work, and work without reward is not appealing, the NRA Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Distinguished Expert Badges serve to make marksmanship development compelling.
 
George Az said:
once upon a time there was a good video from a highpower sight on sling use. Creedmore Sports has basic video dealing with mainly high power stuff that has them (I don't know if you can link here I am kind a new). I live so far from the nearest range most of my shooting is prone. If I am really lazy I just lay on a piece of cardboard, but most of the time, I am laying in the dirt. Sometimes and I know the whole fulcrum theory, I even use a ruck. To be honest, sling pressure will change the poi a little, especially for new shooters without proper instruction.
Click to expand...

The biggest hurdle when introducing the sling to a new shooter is at first everything about the sling supported position will be unnatural for the shooter; and, therefore, an understanding for when the position has been properly built is not likely. My experience with it all suggests letting the shooter play around with it will eventually yield the desired result; but, this approach is not one that works very well in the context of day clinic training. That's to say, one does not learn proper sling usage in a day course.
 
mmonten1 said:
Better than reading forum posts or videos... attend an appleseed event.
Click to expand...

Appleseed, CMP M1 Garand Clinic, USAMU SAFS, they're all good places to start. Then, the shooter would be wise to find small bore or HP competition to inspire development of skill to reach the highest plateaus of good shooting. Again, the day clinics are great for a knowledge base for what is important to good shooting; but, one should not attend, expecting to leave with Master Class credentials.
 
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Personally I prefer to shoot in the prone.....both supported and unsupported. The bench really has never interested me in the least...nor has sleds. When I zero my stick I want do zero it the way I shoot it.....it's about learning muscle memory and the fundamentals of marksmanship for me.
 
This is for you 1smalljohnson:

No one gives a spit about the "FUNDAMENTALS" anymore. More and more people are attempting to outspend the lack of basic knowledge rather than spend the time to learn the right way.

Its a great skill to know though. The only reccomendation i have it to catch young shooters early and teach them the basics before giving them scopes and bipods.

Get them fundamentals ORIEN-TATED early. (sorry, had to make another plug for you 1smalljohnson).
 
I'm thinking of a "Poster" campaign. Show folks what the positions look like. Show them what they, as shooters are capable of. Does Appleseed or CMP have something like this? A poster at every range...promoting marksmanship. Showing positions.. Man, what a concept. Marksmanship.... Fundamentals.... I"m going to ping somebody...
 
RGeyer said:
This is for you 1smalljohnson:

No one gives a spit about the "FUNDAMENTALS" anymore. More and more people are attempting to outspend the lack of basic knowledge rather than spend the time to learn the right way.

Its a great skill to know though. The only reccomendation i have it to catch young shooters early and teach them the basics before giving them scopes and bipods.

Get them fundamentals ORIEN-TATED early. (sorry, had to make another plug for you 1smalljohnson).
Click to expand...

You are right about folks not interested in the fundamentals: scopes, bipods, dot sights, and sleds mask the shooter's recognition of the need for such knowledge. I see this in spades every day. For these folks a poster campaign is not enough. These folks will need to see their shooting heroes publicly disavowal scopes and bipods for any case to be made for slinging up an iron sight rifle. BTW, the shooting heroes are peer groups with no more understanding for irons and slings than my dead dog has. To see interest in slings I believe would require a push from "Shooting Sports USA" but those folks produce most of their stories for what they think the market wants, and it isn't slings.
 
I'm new to this forum and "relatively" new to shooting rifles--grew up shooting scatter guns at birds but got into rifles a few years ago when I got bitten by the bug called elk hunting. Anyhow, for what it's worth, I would be very interested in learning about the sling technique. If there's one thing I've learned consistently about rifle hunting (I'm a bow hunter for the most part), it's "the more ways you know how to properly shoot a rifle, the better off you are in the field." How many times do you have an ideal shooting situation when game presents itself? So far in my short rifle hunting career, none. And sling shooting seems like an awfully practical application.

So where can I learn more about proper technique? I live in the sticks and classes and such aren't very available. Any books or videos?

thanks,

IS
 
Normally I try to stay out of certain people's topics that hammer anything but iron sights and superior factory installed handguard. When hunting people in dark rooms, iron sights SUCK. And those cheesy plastic handguard that have no way to attach a light, white or ir, well, they can SUCK too. Charging wild hogs in the night require something better than irons or plastic...
But back to 1Sj's comment on slings, on this board, it has no sex appeal and very few of the advertised matches encourage the use of slings. I still have my slings, my M1Garand, my M1A, both with irons. I don't see matches for them pushed real hard here....
Lately I fall in the same category as Greg L. A broken neck puts me on a bench. Shit happens.
1Sj, Bubba delk said he still better than you :) :) Living the dream...
 
Bubba Delk will always be better than me. He's a god (little g, though). Nay, a Titan of a shooter! Yes, a Titan! But back to slings: Here's another way of saying what I said up top: We've got a whole bunch of new shooters out there, and not a one of them (barely) have been "shown the ways of the Force". There's a tremendous opportunity out there for them to learn, and us old dogs to teach. Get the new shooters off the bench quickly, and teach them the ways. I'm threatening to start posting some pictures soon. Raining here now, so I'm gonna puss out and wait for dry ground. I never was much of a service rifle shooter anyway..... Bubba Delk would be crack deep in a mud puddle right now, hammering the 600 yard line... and laughing at the rain. Know who taught Chuck Norris to shoot? You might ask the man...
 
OK, 1SJ, some of bubbas tales got deep... :). I'll volunteer to work with you in the marksmanship classes. Hows that? Just as long as we leave Bubba and stan Norris at home. :) :)
 
Idaho-

I've got house guests over the weekend, but I will see about some descriptive pictures some time next week. Perhaps RGeyer and I can get together and shoot some sling porn.

Do you have access to a 1907 sling, or something like it? Even if you don't I've seen world class shooters do it with nothing but a leather belt and a leather dog collar. No kidding. Works fabulously.
 
Idaho Savage said:
So where can I learn more about proper technique? I live in the sticks and classes and such aren't very available. Any books or videos?

IS
Click to expand...

Jim Owens' book on shooting positions is a good start. (the green one). Entertaining too. In fact, they're all good (although he loses me with his bit about half corrections for wind in the Sight Alignment and Trigger Control book - I'm not sure that makes any sense). Otherwise, there's a lot of good stuff that you would expect from a Marine M/SGT.

Link:
Books on Highpower | Sinclair Intl
 
What you're asking is irrelevant now days...newbies want it "now". no one wants to spend years practicing technique to develop muscle memory, breathing techniques, how to slow/hold the heart rate. Do you realize that people actually believe you CAN'T control your heart rate... Hell, people don't even want to spend time learning how to properly mouth the rifle.

1907 sling...wonder how many people have this sling and don't know how to configure it for a cuff setup or what it means to "lock-in".

Bipod prone...no such thing, in my opining. Prone is using a free hanging rifle supported by your own strength, only adding a sling. What can touch the ground...zero part of the gun.
 
a big issue with posters/ books/ videos is you cannot see yourself ( and your errors ) when you are attempting to mimic the picture - live instruction is irreplaceable for being observed / getting feedback and definitely makes for a less steep learning curve than self teaching

as far as the 1907 sling - it is a nice part of history but there are easier/ better slings to use
 
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1SMALLJOHNSON said:
Idaho-

I've got house guests over the weekend, but I will see about some descriptive pictures some time next week. Perhaps RGeyer and I can get together and shoot some sling porn.

Do you have access to a 1907 sling, or something like it? Even if you don't I've seen world class shooters do it with nothing but a leather belt and a leather dog collar. No kidding. Works fabulously.
Click to expand...

No I don't but I'm more than willing to order that aforementioned Armageddon sling. I am leaving this weekend for a work trip and won't be back until late next week, anyway.

[MENTION=57479]seanh[/MENTION]: I hear you--I'm as impatient as the next guy but when it comes to my outdoor pursuits, especially shooting/hunting, I am happy to take my time. I also live 1/4 mile from an outdoor range so it makes "getting out there and doing it" that much more convenient, even when I don't have a ton of time.

[MENTION=50186]damoncali[/MENTION]: I'll see if I can download that book in time for my trip. A trans Atlantic flight seems like a great opportunity to at least soak it in for the first time. Otherwise I'll order that paperback--at $13.00, I can't really go wrong.

To me, the concept of sling shooting makes so much sense from an application standpoint while muley or elk hunting, it's at least worth my time to learn about it and work on it while I also work on the rest of my shooting skill sets. I hunt in RUGGED terrain--I live in the Northern Rockies of Idaho and there's no such thing as a flat, even shooting opportunity, let alone somewhere to rest your bipod in time to get a shot. My guide buddies are always complaining about clients that show up from flat land territory, relying on their bipods or shooting sticks because they just don't work here. This concept--from what I understand so far--seems pretty tasty. I'm also the kind of a-hole that loves old school stuff and tradition for no reason other than the fact that new stuff sometimes seems too easy and I'm a cheap bastard. I make a decent enough living (nothing to brag about), yet I still choose to drive a 1979 F150 around town and a 1986 4Runner for hunting/backcountry outings; prefer to try my luck early season with a bow and enjoy my beer with a Budweiser label. Let's do this.

Here's what I have to work with, arsenal wise (let's assume I buy that sling) in order to learn:
Ruger 10-22, bone stock, iron sights.
Marlin 30-30, lever action, bone stock with iron sights. It's the ranch gun I keep above my back door and probably my overall favorite rifle.
Savage 30-06, bolt action, old as shit, Leopold scope. Not my favorite.
New Savage 111 Long Range Hunter, 300 Win Mag, Vortex Viper Mil Dot scope, currently outfitted with bipod, but that could obviously be removed. Really fun but I'm not confident with it yet.
 
Prone shooting is the rifleman's kindergarten or pre-school. A lot of shooters want to skip all that and be a ninja. I try to work in a lot of position shooting, especially seated, kneeling, and squatting since cover rarely allows the use of the prone.

The modern VTAC sling is an excellent shooting sling, because you can adjust it faster than any sling I know of to fit your position, clothing, and gear on the fly, and really lock into the gun. I'm getting away from longer barreled rifles because of position shooting, so that the COG is tighter to my core, and compensating with higher BC projectiles.

I would like to see national matches using the 1949 Rifle Qualification Table for inspiration. That was the best rifle qualification program the Army ever had. One of the tables had 10 different scenarios with things like a rubble pile, barricade, rooftop, window, ditch, behind a log, stump, foxhole, and two prone long-range portions, and that was just one of the tables. Another was a close combat lane where you patrolled through and engaged targets of opportunity once they were seen.

The slow-fire and sustained fire tables usually started out from standing, where you had to go prone, seated, kneeling, or squatting to engage targets from 100 to 500yds, and each task description included conditions specifying the sling method to be used, whether loop or hasty. It was an era where a professional rifleman was central to doctrine before they got rid of all that in the 1950's, and went to the conscript-grade train fire concept for minimally-trained draftees in the defense shooting from foxholes or prone unsupported.

When you study Infantry School Quarterly, Vol 35, No 2, 1949: 5-21 61, the evidence of a much superior rifleman training regimen is there to behold, leaps and bounds ahead of the bare bones program they have soldiers do on the 300m qual range.
 
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LRRPF52 said:
Prone shooting is the rifleman's kindergarten or pre-school. A lot of shooters want to skip all that and be a ninja. I try to work in a lot of position shooting, especially seated, kneeling, and squatting since cover rarely allows the use of the prone.

The modern VTAC sling is an excellent shooting sling, because you can adjust it faster than any sling I know of to fit your position, clothing, and gear on the fly, and really lock into the gun. I'm getting away from longer barreled rifles because of position shooting, so that the COG is tighter to my core, and compensating with higher BC projectiles.

I would like to see national matches using the 1949 Rifle Qualification Table for inspiration. That was the best rifle qualification program the Army ever had. One of the tables had 10 different scenarios with things like a rubble pile, barricade, rooftop, window, ditch, behind a log, stump, foxhole, and two prone long-range portions, and that was just one of the tables. Another was a close combat lane where you patrolled through and engaged targets of opportunity once they were seen.

The slow-fire and sustained fire tables usually started out from standing, where you had to go prone, seated, kneeling, or squatting to engage targets from 100 to 500yds, and each task description included conditions specifying the sling method to be used, whether loop or hasty. It was an era where a professional rifleman was central to doctrine before they got rid of all that in the 1950's, and went to the conscript-grade train fire concept for minimally-trained draftees in the defense shooting from foxholes or prone unsupported.

When you study Infantry School Quarterly, Vol 35, No 2, 1949: 5-21 61, the evidence of a much superior rifleman training regimen is there to behold, leaps and bounds ahead of the bare bones program they have soldiers do on the 300m qual range.
Click to expand...

You appear to have concluded, that today's basic military marksmanship training is not adequate, is that right? I do not have an opinion about that; however, when I ask folks about getting some training to learn how to shoot their newly purchased AR's, I am sometimes told by the AR purchasers that they are going to get training from an acquaintance who was in the Army, or who is a Police Officer, as if such occupations assure training will be sufficient. I wince, remembering a time when I was coaching a TTT where a DI was zeroing an M4. Even after receiving proper zeroing instruction to set BDC for 300 meters, the DI attempted to sight in at 25 meters unaware the BDC was set for 600 meters. When I asked the DI if sights were at their correct settings for initial zeroing, I was told that yes they were good. At any rate, from my perspective, I too think basic marksmanship training curriculums could be improved. I also think folks who actually know how to shoot, such as those posting on this thread, should assert themselves wherever to encourage understanding for the fundamentals and what is really important to good shooting vs. what the novice perceives is important to good shooting.

Picking up on the sprit of this thread, if there are any folks in the Louisville, Ky area who are interested in understanding how to support their positions with the 1907 sling, I would be willing to provide a gratis clinic at the Knob Creek range if sufficient interest exists.
 
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1SMALLJOHNSON said:
Idaho-

I've got house guests over the weekend, but I will see about some descriptive pictures some time next week. Perhaps RGeyer and I can get together and shoot some sling porn.

Do you have access to a 1907 sling, or something like it? Even if you don't I've seen world class shooters do it with nothing but a leather belt and a leather dog collar. No kidding. Works fabulously.
Click to expand...


OK 1smj, I will be more than happy to pose for your "photo shoot". Mamma is going to be so dissapointed. I have used a leather dress belt to teach sling in the past when nothing else was available, not ideal, but not bad to know if ever I find that slings have become so popular because of this thread that mine are all stolen and i cant buy another.
 
Idaho Savage said:
No I don't but I'm more than willing to order that aforementioned Armageddon sling. I am leaving this weekend for a work trip and won't be back until late next week, anyway.

[MENTION=57479]seanh[/MENTION]: I hear you--I'm as impatient as the next guy but when it comes to my outdoor pursuits, especially shooting/hunting, I am happy to take my time. I also live 1/4 mile from an outdoor range so it makes "getting out there and doing it" that much more convenient, even when I don't have a ton of time.

[MENTION=50186]damoncali[/MENTION]: I'll see if I can download that book in time for my trip. A trans Atlantic flight seems like a great opportunity to at least soak it in for the first time. Otherwise I'll order that paperback--at $13.00, I can't really go wrong.

To me, the concept of sling shooting makes so much sense from an application standpoint while muley or elk hunting, it's at least worth my time to learn about it and work on it while I also work on the rest of my shooting skill sets. I hunt in RUGGED terrain--I live in the Northern Rockies of Idaho and there's no such thing as a flat, even shooting opportunity, let alone somewhere to rest your bipod in time to get a shot. My guide buddies are always complaining about clients that show up from flat land territory, relying on their bipods or shooting sticks because they just don't work here. This concept--from what I understand so far--seems pretty tasty. I'm also the kind of a-hole that loves old school stuff and tradition for no reason other than the fact that new stuff sometimes seems too easy and I'm a cheap bastard. I make a decent enough living (nothing to brag about), yet I still choose to drive a 1979 F150 around town and a 1986 4Runner for hunting/backcountry outings; prefer to try my luck early season with a bow and enjoy my beer with a Budweiser label. Let's do this.

Here's what I have to work with, arsenal wise (let's assume I buy that sling) in order to learn:
Ruger 10-22, bone stock, iron sights.
Marlin 30-30, lever action, bone stock with iron sights. It's the ranch gun I keep above my back door and probably my overall favorite rifle.
Savage 30-06, bolt action, old as shit, Leopold scope. Not my favorite.
New Savage 111 Long Range Hunter, 300 Win Mag, Vortex Viper Mil Dot scope, currently outfitted with bipod, but that could obviously be removed. Really fun but I'm not confident with it yet.
Click to expand...

for the price of 1 quality 1911 sling you can set up a few of those rifles with web slings and all the hardware
 
Picking up on the sprit of this thread, if there are any folks in the Louisville, Ky area who are interested in understanding how to support their positions with the 1907 sling, I would be willing to provide a gratis clinic at the Knob Creek range if sufficient interest exists.
Click to expand...

I'll make the same offer for anyone in the NE Wyoming-Western SD area. In June and Aug. I'm putting on a CMP GSM Clinic, and will be working with others in preparation for the CMP-GSM/Vintage Sniper Matches in Cody WY in Sept.

I cover the use of the 1907 Leather and the Web slings. One should know how to use both.

I may or may not have to charge for the CMP clinics. Sometimes the club wants to charge a $5 range fee for non members, sometimes I forget to collect the fees, just depends who's around at the time.

As a side note, for those who don't use military style rifles, you can get 1 1/4 sling swivels for standard hunting rifles. I use them and the leather slings on my hunting rifles.
 
You appear to have concluded, that today's basic military marksmanship training is not adequate, is that right? I do not have an opinion about that; however, when I ask folks about getting some training to learn how to shoot their newly purchased AR's, I am sometimes told by the AR purchasers that they are going to get training from an acquaintance who was in the Army, or who is a Police Officer, as if such occupations assure training will be sufficient. I wince, remembering a time when I was coaching a TTT where a DI was zeroing an M4. Even after receiving proper zeroing instruction to set BDC for 300 meters, the DI attempted to sight in at 25 meters unaware the BDC was set for 600 meters. When I asked the DI if sights were at their correct settings for initial zeroing, I was told that yes they were good.
Click to expand...

I can only relate my experiences at Fort Benning from 1994, and the common marksmanship standards that I witnessed in 7 different units over a 10 year period on active duty. Before BRM even started, I beat one of my Drill Sergeants in a timed competition for dis-assembly and re-assembly of the M16A2 rifle in front of all my peers, who had shoved me forward when the DI asked if anyone thought they could do it...50 push-ups being the consequences for the loser (he obviously thought nobody could do it). We ended up getting smoked, so he lost 2 opportunities to build credibility with us in the 1st week of Infantry Basic/AIT.

I felt like Basic Rifle Marksmanship was a rushed numbers game, to be honest. We had various instructors with a wide range of quality when it comes to marksmanship instruction, to include former AMU guys who were gifted with a rifle, but we didn't have enough time with them to even realize what we were being taught. For example, one 29th Infantry and former AMU instructor could shoot tighter groups than any of us on rapid fire, but we were so green and rushed, that nobody really even understood what they had just witnessed, unless they had grown up with rifles.

Another problem is that 18 & 19yr-old males almost can't be taught how to do 3 things:

* Drive a car
* Shoot
* You get the picture

SPORTS was drilled into us though, which is counter-productive as a malfunction clearance procedure. If we would have been given more time to just spend on the range marrying the rifles with AMU instructors using techniques that are sound for combat and not just the flat range, that would have been great.

If they would adopt the 1949 Qual Tables again, that would be the best Rifle Marksmanship program and multiple times more battle-focused than the current qual range. The 1949 Tables included a patrol lane which would evaluate CQM (Close Quarters Marksmanship) as well, so several blocks on CQM would help prepare for that, and CQM has become more prevalent due to the influence from units within SOCOM, but there are varying degrees of quality depending on the unit and NCO's conducting the training.

The one range that we did that should have been for record, but isn't, was the Advanced Rifle Marksmanship range. It needs to be standardized on all Army bases with range complexes, but I understand why it isn't. On that range, you have terrain with significant elevation and relief. There are various types of electrically controlled pop-up and moving targets that are the 3D Ivans holding AK's, and shooting the movers with combinations was the most challenging and fun aspect of that range. I could have spent a week there if they would have let me, but it was just a half-day wham-bam, thank you ma'am affair where we were cattle-trucked in, Drill Sergeants were anxious to get us through so they could get off at normal hours, and get home or to whatever it was that seemed more important to them.

That whole experience was a "train to time & schedule" versus "train to standard" fiasco, with more importance placed on being at the chow hall at a certain time, and feeding the gubm't gravy train welfare system for the local populace of unskilled workers who grease the wheels of the machine. Training for combat and real soldiering skills were the least priority in practice. The whole system is geared to the camouflage welfare recipients, from Congressional districts on down to the lowly private, with his hands eagerly awaiting his Tricare, paycheck, and college money. Warriors are not welcome in any TRADOC environment, especially Basic, AIT, PLDC, BNCOC, ANCOC, SGM's Academy, OCS, West Point, etc.

The proof is in the pudding. Years later in 2002, when I was running a zero range as a Staff Sergeant in the 82nd, after receiving criticism from my Battalion SGM in front of the soldiers as to how I gave my initial briefing on how to zero their M4's, I spent the whole day watching our Division Sergeant Major fail to zero his M4. His E-4 driver was zeroed in 9 rounds, cleared off the range and GTG. I literally watched that SGM w/over 24 years time in service chase holes around his targets from 0900 to at least 1530 until he realized he needed to move on with better things in life. He had 3 DUI's and wasn't allowed to drive on post, but being a Prince Hall ring-knocker, he was protected from consequences that would have sent an E-5 to the chapter line out of the Army. He's probably collecting 100% disability now wearing an 82nd Airborne hat talking about his glory days. So these are symptoms of a broken, derelict, defunct system, with marksmanship as just a symptom of the cancer that exists in the heart, brains, and lungs of the leadership structure from the top on down to Corps, Divisions, Brigades, Battalions, & Companies.

The 1949 Qual Tables were symptoms of Great War & WWII-era warriors having their influence over training and doctrine. Hopefully enough men from that ethos and the current conflicts can weasel into command positions to have an institutional effect on the organization as whole, but they are in competition with the corporate types who have the camouflage welfare gravy train dialed in big-time for the O-Paygrade system + retirement, and they have connections with the entrenched panzies that almost guarantee the system to stay the way it is.

As a result, the civilian sector is basically the only hope for many soldiers to glean some of these art forms that are lost from the institutional knowledge base. The warrior ethos exists in the hearts of the willing from birth, and they seek out the skills from the ones who have proven themselves beforehand. They recognize a BS'er before he opens his lying orifice, and have no time for his antics, regardless of what's on his collar. In the special event that a young soldier comes in contact with a seasoned veteran, he knows to open his ears and start to absorb, regardless of his own perceived skills, because you can only walk in one set of boots in this life, and it helps to learn from the mistakes and hard-learned lessons of others.

In that light, I commend those of you who are willing to pass on these skills to the next generation, especially for little or no coin. Your support of the CMP, NRA Hi-Power, and other shooting disciplines offers a lot of hope when it comes to being a riflemen in an era of XBOX games that drive kids into thinking that they are on the mission to get Osama in a Hollywood-inspired hose session with an M4 on AUTO.
 
Book ordered. Should be here by the time I get back. Is that Armageddon Precision Sling my best bet, as an applicable sling to both the 30-30 and .300? I'd rather not buy two but I do like the sound that product, regardless of the sling shooting, i.e. the suspension, construction, etc.
 
If you're anywhere near North Georgia I highly recommend attending one of Riverbend Gun Clubs monthly 100 yard matches/clinics. It's an iron sight only affair. It is taught by a distinguished rifleman, and there are almost always 2 or 3 other DRs with 1 (former) Marine Corps sniper and sometimes 1 (former) Army sniper in attendance. As Riverbend has had a few of its members on the US Palma team you might find them there too. Most of these guys (and gal) will, using iron sights, absolutely crush 99% of those who would use a bench and a scope. And they will personally guide you through proper technique. Sometimes a cadre from the Army mountaineering school in Dahlonega or some Rangers from Ft Benning will be there to compete against. There's just not a better group of people to learn from. They cover the basics of positional shooting, use of the sling, and lots, lots, lots of safety. Every shooter young and old should find one such class near you and attend.

As for getting old and injuries catching up to you, the guy who first taught me (my dad, a corpsman) is in just such a position. After 7 and a half decades things just aint what they used to be. On a good day he can get prone with a bag front and rear. Other than that it's all from a bench. But he can still teach the basics of shooting and he continues to produce amazing handloads for several of us who still compete. So he's still in the game.
 
I like this post and I would volunteer myself as a (hopefully worthy) candidate for instruction. Would I dedicate my life to it? No but nothing gets that but my family, even at this age. I would love to become a marksman in the porper right to help a dying breed live on.

If you are in South TX and want to take a risk, PM me, we'll go shooting, and hopefully we'll get along and start a friendship.

Dave
 
Okay...book arrived while I was gone. I got back late Friday night and started reading it yesterday...absorbing the basic principles. We're lambing on the ranch right now, so I didn't have time to finish nor truly absorb everything, but just the basics.

So today I had about 30 minutes to spare, so I threw the 30-30 iron sights with a traditional but very well worn (soft and pliable) sling into the truck and headed out the canyon. I set up a 8" round paper target at 100 yards. My usual average with the lever gun at that range is about 2/5 in the circle standing; 4/5 sitting but big groups; and 5/5 with about 5" groups prone or with a proper bench.

Being new to this concept, I tried to keep it simple: I threw the sling around my bicep, drawing the rifle in while standing. I really concentrated on my positioning to provide a natural line of sight, then really focused on breathing and trigger work (that ol' Marlin doesn't have the nicest trigger in the safe). Definitely noticed a more "encompassing" feeling of being "around" the rifle, and the bead definitely danced less than usual. The result was 4/5 in the paint while standing--three times in a row.

That's enough of a an improvement off the bat for me to keep going and reading. Anyhow, I'll keep you all updated. And I'm still trying to choose the right sling. Went by Sportsman's Warehouse but they didn't have any that fit the bill. I've got a long ways to go, obviously, but the first sampling was encouraging.
 
I don't know how many on here may have read Lt.Col. Dave Grossman's book, "On Killing," but it has a very interesting history of why the army switched from teaching honest to God marksmanship, to the quick and dirty format we have today. Simply put, the older program taught troops to shoot, but failed pretty badly at training them to kill, based on the findings of Gen. S.L.A. Marshall after both WWII and Korea. While the shift to silhouette targets and combat techniques was needed, I think (personal observation here) that they swung the pendulum way too far. We've completely abandoned true marksmanship, and really don't have the cadre to teach it as it should be anymore. As far as DI's, I'll hazard a guess that most of them learned to shoot in the military, and aren't all that well versed in proper marksmanship to begin with. See a couple of personal stories on previos posts right here that tend to verify that. The real instructors of marksmanship, such as AMU, are simply spread too thin to be able to address the Big Army at large.

Not a good situation, but it's nice to know there are still some railing against the system.
 
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+1 on Grossman's book. It is also an excellent study in sociology. As far as I know it is the only serious and sober study of the topic, and offers a historical perspective that helps shed some light on how we got here from there.
 
Hey 1SJ I'm in Thomasville and have a new-to-me Turner sling sitting here begging for proper instruction. I'd tag along sometime to pick up some good habits!
 
OK folks, we're about to kick this thing off. I've got an Armageddon sling coming in by mail, and I've got several 1907 slings. I'm looking for suggestions from the members, but here's how I'd like to start: RGeyer and I will set up in all the orthodox positions. We'll take pictures of each one, with the employment of the sling, as well as teaching how to ensure you've got proper forces. These initial pictures will look very much like shooters you'd see at Service rifle, Long-Range Rifle and International Rifle competitions. You've got to learn the FUNDAMENTAL, orthodox positions first, such that you can then apply the fundamentals to the esoteric positions later. Once we get the fundamental positions posted, we'll look for more suggestions on "alternate positions".

One caveat: By no means do I consider myself an expert with a bipod. It might sound overly simplistic to the uninitiated, but bipod shooting is its own science too. I ask to link up with a highly competent bipod shooter, and get them on board to assist in that type of instruction.

All suggestions are welcome, and I'd tend to think that we'll pick up the pace on this thread once the pictures start posting.

'
 
Spent a little time behind a rifle slung up shooting prone. Have done it with a precision rifle, service rifle and high power rifle. If done properly and the FOM are followed it is a steady position.


TV_match.jpg
 
Greg Langelius * said:
I'm one of those bench shooting jackwagons, but not by personal choice.

I do what I can do, and the permanent consequences of shoulder injury makes the proper use of a sling and prone shooting physically impossible. I miss it dearly, but I still like to shoot, and for me, the bench is it. It is something I did really well and which gave me great satisfaction.

All I would say is that I sincerely hope that physical shortcomings never arise that might to force you to eat your words, as they have done for me.

Greg
Click to expand...

I had a foot in mouth incident one time at school asking a group of college kids why they were taking the elevator to the second floor instead of the stairs. One kid raised up his pants leg to reveal a prosthesis. He just smiled.
 
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