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New Surgeon Scalpel 6.5 CM Hornady factory 140 Amax blowing primers

J

jtrax

Sergeant
Banned !
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Nov 11, 2012
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MS - Gulf Coast
I have started to break in my barrel on a new Surgeon Scalpel 6.5 Creedmoor using Hornady factory ammo - 140 Amax's. I am following my usual break in method of shoot then clean, shoot then clean, etc. I've shot 4 total shots so far and have blow two primers. Also have prominent ejector marks.

I am at a loss here. After cleaning bore I make sure my chamber is dry. I am not new at this but I've never experienced blown primers on factory ammo. I hope that the ammo is the problem and not the rifle.

All four shots have come from same box of ammo. I have another Surgeon Scalpel 6.5 CM and shoot this Hornady factory ammo (not same box but same lot #) and it works great with unbelievable accuracy.

I would greatly appreciate any of your thoughts/ideas on this issue.

Thanks.

Josh
 
Papagallos said:
Why don't you try that same ammo on your old 6.5 CM?
Click to expand...

When the first primer blew I took bolt out and I inspected bolt and chamber for damage. I then put the bolt back in and it would not close. Part of the blown primer lodged where the lugs lock up. I do not want to damage my other Surgeon if the problem is defective ammo.
 
I have put 1000 rnds of factory 120 grn 6.5 CM ammo through my GAP rifle with no blown primers. But the last 200 rnds or so I have been blowing them like crazy. I was thinking it was the 105 degree OK heat that was making it do it. But then a week or two ago I blew only one in 80 degree heat. I will clean my chamber in the next day or so and maybe some dirt and stuff has accumulated in it to drive pressures up.

We'll see. Good luck on your brother.
 
CALL HORNADY!! That's totally unacceptable. Now that we know its not an isolated incident... I'd say Hornady definitely needs to know. If rifles as tough as GAP and Surgeons are blowing primers.,. Something is wrong
 
My bad. I see what your saying. Bad powder lot. My apologies. That could definitely be it. I read where someone on here pulled a manufactured bullet (140 amax) and it was 42.9 grains. That's HOT
 
I would try a different lot number of ammo, I had an isolated incident at Rifles Only with Southwest ammo. Blew 4 primers in a 20 round box. the loads were HOT.
 
I recently had 1 round from Hornady Match 308 168 BTHP and 1 round from Hornady 178 BTHP Superperformance blow a primer on the same day. Weather was mid 80's and I have never had one of my reloads or any FGMM ammo that I've put through the same rifle have that issue. I'm guessing Hornady is to blame for this one.
 
Same thing happened to me before with factory ammo, but only on a few isolated loads from the same lot. Call Hornady and give them the lot number and tell them what is happening.

Another possibility is that your chamber is too tight or off spec.
 
I assume you have a match chamber right? Maybe your case neck is too thick driving up pressures, although hornady is known to load on the hot side.

Measure the neck on a loaded round and then measure the neck on a fired casing from your chamber. The fired casing should be a minimum of.001 larger preferably .002. I ran into this on my .260 and had to turn my necks.
 
Thanks guys...I appreciate your input. I will take it out again tomorrow evening and resume barrel break-in with a different lot of the Hornady (or I will use hand loads). I purchased another Surgeon 6.5 CM after being thoroughly impressed with my first (which is in an AI folder) as well as the great Hornady factory match Amax's (very accurate). I wanted another in a McM A5. This far I've not really had plans to hand load for these two rifles since The Hornady is so accurate and affordable. After this experience I will start shooting hand loads through these two just as I do all my other rifles.

Thanks again.

Josh
 
I'm out of town tonight but I will look tomorrow when I get back. I'll update post with the lot #.

Thanks again guys for your input.


Josh
 
17874 said:
I assume you have a match chamber right? Maybe your case neck is too thick driving up pressures, although hornady is known to load on the hot side.

Measure the neck on a loaded round and then measure the neck on a fired casing from your chamber. The fired casing should be a minimum of.001 larger preferably .002. I ran into this on my .260 and had to turn my necks.
Click to expand...


Jtrax is my shooting partner and I'm really hoping this isn't the problem. But he told me that he shot 4 times and 2 primers blew. I'm going to give him some mild hand loads (41.4 h4350 140 amax) and see if that answers the question... Rifle or bad ammo
 
I'm also going to chamber a round and work the bolt up and down 10 times or so. If there's a problem it should reveal itself with a shiny mark. But I'm really leaning towards A) he's breaking in the barrel and may have a little bit of solvent in chamber B) and most likely .. Bad Ammo
 
Do you have a SAAMI chamber or something different?

You are supposed to have .200" freebore to shoot factory ammo.
 
Aimsmall55 said:
My bad. I see what your saying. Bad powder lot. My apologies. That could definitely be it. I read where someone on here pulled a manufactured bullet (140 amax) and it was 42.9 grains. That's HOT
Click to expand...

No it's not. As I have posted many times over the years, Hornady loads to a pressure standard and different lots of powder require different powder charges of H4350. The 41.5 grns on the box was the original and a safe place to start but don't expect that in the case every lot if you pull the bullet.

OP measure the OAL to the lands in your chamber. Also you can call Hornady and they might want to check out the lot.
 
Rob01 said:
No it's not. As I have posted many times over the years, Hornady loads to a pressure standard and different lots of powder require different powder charges of H4350. The 41.5 grns on the box was the original and a safe place to start but don't expect that in the case every lot if you pull the bullet.

OP measure the OAL to the lands in your chamber. Also you can call Hornady and they might want to check out the lot.
Click to expand...

With all due respect Rob, Primers blowing is proof that yes, it is too hot. I wouldn't say this normally but when multiple people start saying its happening to them, you kind of have to wonder ......
 
In his rifle. Not in all rifles. Like I said they don't load to powder charge but to pressure. I load 43.5 grns with the 140s with no pressure but that's my GAP rifle. That's why I told him to check his chamber.

He should contact Hornady and they will probably want to test the ammo.
 
I would warch over ur ammo temps! even if its 80deg out if that ammo is sitting in the sun its getting WAY HOTTER!!! or if its in the truck (we all have been burnt by that LAVA hot seatbelt) i have noticed a ton of POI change just by ammo temps... I put mine in a cooler inside a sealed container.. people give me silly looks at the range but my bullets are always the same (closer than if i left them out in the vegas heat)
 
Update

Got back in town this evening and took Surgeon out again. Today I used a different lot # of Hornady 140 Amax ammo (was using ammo from Lot#3122982). No blown primers today. I am not implying that the ammo is or was the problem...just providing the Lot# for those who requested it.
 
Here's my experience, first with my email to Hornady:

I bought several boxes of Hornady Match 6.5 Creedmoor ammo with the 140gr Amax. I was shooting the ammo through a clean Savage 12 LRP (all stock, nothing aftermarket) in 95 degree weather with very low humidity. I was firing at a slow pace, about 1 round per 45 seconds, with a 10 minute break between 5-shot strings.
All the primers were severely flattened and cratered, and one of the primers completely blew out. The case head on these cases are stretched enough that the primer pocket will no longer hold a fresh primer properly (way too loose). This was what happened with 3 boxes of fresh ammo I bought with the LOT#3121750.
I just started shooting the 6.5 Creedmoor, and I bought this ammo specifically to use the fired cases to reload. I typically reload all my ammo and rarely buy factory-loaded ammo. But in this case, I needed to get started and my usual shop was out of fresh Hornady Creedmoor brass.
I thought it might help Hornady (I only use Hornady bullets for all my reloading - XTPs for pistol and Amax and Vmax for rifle) to be aware of this. I can email pics of the cases and boxes.
All that said, the ammo shot beautifully. All sub-MOA from 100 to 300 yards, with some groups 1/2MOA. It is just a shame I won't be able to reuse the 60 cases.


Their response: Dave,



Please take you gun to a gunsmith and have them slug the barrel; which will consist of having them push a lead plug of aprox. your bore diameter through the barrel. When it comes out of the barrel you mic or measure it with a set of calipers. We are certain that you will find that your Savage rifle is under SAAMI specification for bore diameter.



We have checked the load data for this lot of ammunition and it is well within SAAMI spec and would never result in this kind of pressure in a gun that is within the SAAMI spec. Once you have had the gun slugged you can return it to Savage and tell them that you want the chamber and bore to be of a safe SAAMI specification.



If you would like to send the ammo to us we will inspect and test fire it and have a technician call you with the results and can even send them to you if you like.



 
I pulled a factory round apart the other day and it was 42.9gr of powder. I put 100 rounds through mine with no issues of blown primers.
 
Dave said:
Here's my experience, first with my email to Hornady:

I bought several boxes of Hornady Match 6.5 Creedmoor ammo with the 140gr Amax. I was shooting the ammo through a clean Savage 12 LRP (all stock, nothing aftermarket) in 95 degree weather with very low humidity. I was firing at a slow pace, about 1 round per 45 seconds, with a 10 minute break between 5-shot strings.
All the primers were severely flattened and cratered, and one of the primers completely blew out. The case head on these cases are stretched enough that the primer pocket will no longer hold a fresh primer properly (way too loose). This was what happened with 3 boxes of fresh ammo I bought with the LOT#3121750.
I just started shooting the 6.5 Creedmoor, and I bought this ammo specifically to use the fired cases to reload. I typically reload all my ammo and rarely buy factory-loaded ammo. But in this case, I needed to get started and my usual shop was out of fresh Hornady Creedmoor brass.
I thought it might help Hornady (I only use Hornady bullets for all my reloading - XTPs for pistol and Amax and Vmax for rifle) to be aware of this. I can email pics of the cases and boxes.
All that said, the ammo shot beautifully. All sub-MOA from 100 to 300 yards, with some groups 1/2MOA. It is just a shame I won't be able to reuse the 60 cases.


Their response: Dave,



Please take you gun to a gunsmith and have them slug the barrel; which will consist of having them push a lead plug of aprox. your bore diameter through the barrel. When it comes out of the barrel you mic or measure it with a set of calipers. We are certain that you will find that your Savage rifle is under SAAMI specification for bore diameter.



We have checked the load data for this lot of ammunition and it is well within SAAMI spec and would never result in this kind of pressure in a gun that is within the SAAMI spec. Once you have had the gun slugged you can return it to Savage and tell them that you want the chamber and bore to be of a safe SAAMI specification.



If you would like to send the ammo to us we will inspect and test fire it and have a technician call you with the results and can even send them to you if you like.



Click to expand...


I guess a lot of folks will be returning their rifles ... Lol. That's ridiculous
 
To the OP.

With such nice hardware it might be time to start to think about reloading.

Reloading your own ammunition not only allows you to tailor a load to shoot accurately in your rifle
but it also is an insurance policy (within reason) to protect your gun from hot factory loads.

I had to send my LRP-07 back to JP because it wasn't cycling correctly due to older Hornady 6.5 Creed brass
being out of spec. I find that brass is the weakest link to this otherwise amazing cartridge.

BTW. The newer runs of brass are much better.

I know I am stating the obvious here, so do what you want with this reco....
 
Last edited:
The Lawn Ranger said:
I had to send my LRP-07 back to JP because it wasn't cycling correctly due to older Hornady 6.5 Creed brass
being out of spec. I find that brass is the weakest link to this otherwise amazing cartridge.
Click to expand...

Out of spec how?
 
The Lawn Ranger said:
To the OP.

With such nice hardware it might be time to start to think about reloading.

Reloading your own ammunition not only allows you to tailor a load to shoot accurately in your rifle
but it also is an insurance policy (within reason) to protect your gun from hot factory loads.

I had to send my LRP-07 back to JP because it wasn't cycling correctly due to older Hornady 6.5 Creed brass
being out of spec. I find that brass is the weakest link to this otherwise amazing cartridge.

BTW. The newer runs of brass are much better.

I know I am stating the obvious here, so do what you want with this reco....
Click to expand...

The purpose of my decision to buy the 6.5CM's was due to the high quality factory loads at a reasonable price. These are the only rifles in which I run factory ammo.
 
jtrax said:
The purpose of my decision to buy the 6.5CM's was due to the high quality factory loads at a reasonable price. These are the only rifles in which I run factory ammo.
Click to expand...

I agree. The factory loads shoot as good as my hand loads ... Probably better. I personally have never had an issue with the 140 amax in a GA Crusader. I just hope that this issue gets resolved.... QUICK. Do you think Hornady "Higher Ups" look on this site??
 
Dave said:
Please take you gun to a gunsmith and have them slug the barrel; which will consist of having them push a lead plug of aprox. your bore diameter through the barrel. When it comes out of the barrel you mic or measure it with a set of calipers. We are certain that you will find that your Savage rifle is under SAAMI specification for bore diameter.
Click to expand...

Dave-
this is interesting. Did you get the barrel measured with that lead slug? Would appreciate hearing how your story concludes! thanks.
 
Aimsmall55 said:
I agree. The factory loads shoot as good as my hand loads ... Probably better. I personally have never had an issue with the 140 amax in a GA Crusader. I just hope that this issue gets resolved.... QUICK. Do you think Hornady "Higher Ups" look on this site??
Click to expand...


The factory Hornady doesn't shoot nearly as good as hand loads or custom loads from Copper Creek. In fact I had a conversation with a GAP team shooter about how inconsistent the Hornady 140gr loads are, lot to lot.
 
Yeah those factory loads suck. ;) Lot to lot accuracy is no different. All accurate. Velocity has been within 30fps with the lone exception being a slow lot back in 2009 which was about 80fps slower. Haven't run across that since. I know I am not a Team GAP shooter but I have been shooting it longer than any of them as our rifles were the first 3 Creedmoors GAP ever made back in 2008.
300 yards


100 yards 3 and 5 shot

 
Im stating information gathered from testing we did on a 12k round Hornady order. I watched him go box to box and get mixed results.
Then you run a custom load and its same place each time, repeatable and reliable.

Not saying Hornady is awful, just saying they are not my go to load.... lot to lot accuracy IS different. It has been proven. They cannot replicate each batch of ammo perfectly, that is just not possible.
 
Last edited:
Well I have only been through a little over 4000 rounds and 6 lots over 5 years so that's all I can speak of and accuracy with all has been sub half MOA with every lot I have used. Could be the GAP rifle but I know others who get the same. No they might not be the exact same velocity with each lot but they are close enough to use with very good results. I wouldn't use them in matches if they weren't accurate and competitive.

Was the custom load different lots over a 12,000 round run? Was that handload custom or Copper Creek?
 
jbailey said:
Dave-
this is interesting. Did you get the barrel measured with that lead slug? Would appreciate hearing how your story concludes! thanks.
Click to expand...

I shouldn't have to go get a factory barrel that shoots lights-out slugged. Factory ammo, factory gun (one of the few guns that are factory-chambered for that round, I might add!). To be honest, I'm rather disappointed in Hornady's response. I was just hoping that they would replace mangled brass with some new brass. I guess I should have been more clear about that in my email?

All that said, I didn't have problems with a box of a different lot. I will continue to shoot this gun and if I continue to have pressure issues, then I will relent and go get my barrel slugged. I'll keep you posted.
 
In a pinch, I like the Hornady factory ammo as well. I can just load better ammo for MY gun.

jtrax said:
The purpose of my decision to buy the 6.5CM's was due to the high quality factory loads at a reasonable price. These are the only rifles in which I run factory ammo.
Click to expand...
 
The Lawn Ranger said:
The radius on case heads was off-I had an extractor and spring mod done by JP.

This was recommended to me by John Paul himself. I have not had ejection issues since.
Click to expand...

Did you contact Hornady about it? If it was off enough that it wouldn't chamber and function then I know they would want to know about it.

I agree that handloading and tailoring a load for a specific rifle is always the best way to get the most out of the rifle but the factory ammo does work very well. I am sure [MENTION=1006]Dave M[/MENTION]ight not agree with that ammo. Dave you have any of that lot left? Did you ever send any in to them to test? Does anyone else around you have a Creedmoor that they can shoot it through?
 
Rob01 said:
. Dave you have any of that lot left? Did you ever send any in to them to test? Does anyone else around you have a Creedmoor that they can shoot it through?
Click to expand...

Rob, I'll have to look to see if I have any left. I haven't sent any in for them to test. And frankly, after that response of blaming it all on my gun and not offering to replace the brass, I'm not too keen on shipping off (on my dime) precious ammo that might not get replaced.

None of my shooting buddies are running the Creedmoor.
 
I will contact Hornady and send them the cases in question. I meant to, but life creeped in.

I will admit that the virgin cases I have bought of late seem to be of higher quality.

Rob01 said:
Did you contact Hornady about it? If it was off enough that it wouldn't chamber and function then I know they would want to know about it.

I agree that handloading and tailoring a load for a specific rifle is always the best way to get the most out of the rifle but the factory ammo does work very well. I am sure [MENTION=1006]Dave M[/MENTION]ight not agree with that ammo. Dave you have any of that lot left? Did you ever send any in to them to test? Does anyone else around you have a Creedmoor that they can shoot it through?
Click to expand...
 
Dave said:
Rob, I'll have to look to see if I have any left. I haven't sent any in for them to test. And frankly, after that response of blaming it all on my gun and not offering to replace the brass, I'm not too keen on shipping off (on my dime) precious ammo that might not get replaced.

None of my shooting buddies are running the Creedmoor.
Click to expand...

Dave talk to the customer service person you were dealing with and let them know your feelings. If they don't hear back they assume everything is done and you are fine. If you want it tested tell them and they will do it. Ask about getting a replacement box. They do test and keep records on all lots and they are very meticulous about it and that is why I am sure they thought a factory rifle might be a problem before the ammo. Also the Creedmoor load itself was loaded well below where any pressure would be seen. It was designed that way from the start. Check with them and keep us updated. If you need those 60 pieces of brass I can check and send you some once fired if I have some to spare.




The Lawn Ranger said:
I will contact Hornady and send them the cases in question. I meant to, but life creeped in.

I will admit that the virgin cases I have bought of late seem to be of higher quality.
Click to expand...

Yup life always does that. How many cases you have that problem with?
 
Rob01 said:
Well I have only been through a little over 4000 rounds and 6 lots over 5 years so that's all I can speak of and accuracy with all has been sub half MOA with every lot I have used. Could be the GAP rifle but I know others who get the same. No they might not be the exact same velocity with each lot but they are close enough to use with very good results. I wouldn't use them in matches if they weren't accurate and competitive.

Was the custom load different lots over a 12,000 round run? Was that handload custom or Copper Creek?
Click to expand...

Copper creek loads my 6.5 Creedmoor. I have fired over 4k rounds between 3 rifles. All same results, same barrel specs, all suppressed.
I trust Josh's ammo more then anything else out there, even my own stuff. :)
 
Rob01 said:
Yeah those factory loads suck. ;) Lot to lot accuracy is no different. All accurate. Velocity has been within 30fps with the lone exception being a slow lot back in 2009 which was about 80fps slower. Haven't run across that since. I know I am not a Team GAP shooter but I have been shooting it longer than any of them as our rifles were the first 3 Creedmoors GAP ever made back in 2008.
300 yards


100 yards 3 and 5 shot

Click to expand...

Agreed Rob. I've shot the Hornady 140 Amax factory loads (and quite a few 120's) in addition to hundreds of handloads with 139 gr Scenar, 140 Amax, 130 & 140 Berger VLD & 140 Hybrid Target. Results - they are all extremely accurate....and hold better than
0.5 MOA accuracy a long way. I shoot at my own range 5-6 days/week at varying distances from 400
to just over 1200 yds. Many days I only have an hour or so of shooting time when i leave the office but i still go anyway. We've compared the Hornady 140 Amax factory ammo against handloads using the projectiles stated above. What I have seen is there no significant difference in accuracy.

Additionally, for me it makes sense to use good factory ammo such as this when it is available and financially feasible. I would much rather be shooting than spending all my time reloading. Such is necessary however in my other rifles such as my .22-250, 300 Win Mags, .308, and 7 WSM. Like i said in an earlier post, this ammo influenced my decision to go with a CM for my 6.5mm caliber choice. I've shot enough of the factory 140 Amax to be able to trust in its accuracy. My experience is that it is consistent lot to lot.
 
KYS said:
Copper creek loads my 6.5 Creedmoor. I have fired over 4k rounds between 3 rifles. All same results, same barrel specs, all suppressed.
I trust Josh's ammo more then anything else out there, even my own stuff. :)
Click to expand...

Copper Creek loads excellent ammo. Don't think anyone is debating that but the insinuation that the Hornady offering is sub par in either velocity variations or accuracy just isn't right. Getting custom ammo loaded is a nice option but Hornady Creedmoor ammo is very good. I spend $1000-1200 to fly to matches and I wouldn't use an ammunition that wouldn't make me competitive as I mentioned.

Small lot to lot variations are normal with any mass produced ammunition as it is with powders or bullets. Getting a same lot of ammunition and knowing what it is doing is the most important. I switch lots I chrono and then run new data if needed if the velocity is over 10fps different. It's not a big deal. Like I said I haven't had anymore than 30fps between all those lots and they were all very accurate.

Lawn if you wanted I could send you 10 cases.
 
Rob01 said:
Dave talk to the customer service person you were dealing with and let them know your feelings. If they don't hear back they assume everything is done and you are fine. If you want it tested tell them and they will do it. Ask about getting a replacement box. They do test and keep records on all lots and they are very meticulous about it and that is why I am sure they thought a factory rifle might be a problem before the ammo. Also the Creedmoor load itself was loaded well below where any pressure would be seen. It was designed that way from the start. Check with them and keep us updated. If you need those 60 pieces of brass I can check and send you some once fired if I have some to spare.
Click to expand...

Rob, you're right. I'll call them early next week. That is awfully generous (and kind!) of you to offer some of your once-fired, but this isn't your problem to fix. I was just taken aback by their response. I would have thought they'd be more eager to make a loyal customer happy. There is no way I would have bought factory ammo if I would have known that I wouldn't be able to safely reload the fired brass. I would have bought virgin brass from Midway and loaded them up myself right from the start.

Seriously, I'm shooting FACTORY ammo out of a FACTORY gun! Unless I'm mistaken, Savage is one of the only companies to even OFFER a FACTORY rifle in Hornady's pride-and-joy caliber! And yet the rep doesn't even CONSIDER that it could have been the ammo - but instead basically throws Savage under the bus. Maybe I should call up Savage and let them know what Hornady is saying?

I mean, ammo consists of four different components: the bullet and case (both of which are made by Hornady in this case) and the primer and powder (both of which are manufactured by entities that AREN'T Hornady). What's more likely to be the offending party? The ammo, which might have been made with a funky lot of powder - sure Hornady tested that batch, but did they test them only in an air-conditioned building? Or was it Savage's barrel? I just happen to have the one Savage barrel whose bore is so undersized it causes crazy pressure spikes. And that barrel is Savage's top of the line - the 12LRP uses their finest target barrels screwed into their finest actions.

Sorry about the rant. The more I think about it, the more disappointed I get. I have been treated SO well by Redding, RCBS, Dillon, Rock River Arms, Giraud, Savage, and Ruger (just to name some of the gun companies I've had really positive customer service experiences with). I just expected a different response from Hornady. It would have been so easy to make a long-time customer happy...
 
Last edited:
KYS said:
The factory Hornady doesn't shoot nearly as good as hand loads or custom loads from Copper Creek. In fact I had a conversation with a GAP team shooter about how inconsistent the Hornady 140gr loads are, lot to lot.
Click to expand...

Well according to my 3 to 4 inch groups at 920 yards. I would say they shoot OK... I fired 10 threw a ced m2 and and Es was 23. If your worried abount lot variations just cough up the $ and buy 500 or 1,000. This is a GAP rifle also
 
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