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Reloading assistance please

Cat64

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 28, 2013
290
12
North Louisiana
Hello to all the sniper shooting aficionados. I am relatively new at this but have a personal goal to be able to shoot a tight group at 1000 yds. Last week I started reloading my own ammo. I need some expert assistance in finding a decent load for my gun. I have purchased thus far for bullets Hornady A-max 168 grain and Sierra MatchKing 165 grain and for powder I have either vv-N-150 or H4895. I first loaded @38 gr per cartridge with the vv powder and shoot a decent group at 100yds. Did not try further yet. Today I tried the Sierra bullet with 40.1 gr. shoot ok &100 yds but @ 200 yds the spread was atrocious. Also I had a difficult time with this cartridge in closing the bolt. My Tikka is smooth like butter but was very hard to lock the bolt with the Sierra ( I tried different C.O.L.s from 2.685 to 2.750 and still hard to close) I would welcome any advise for the issues above. P,ease if you take your time to answer (which I appreciate) don't be very techical. Assume your audience is the 101 level. Thank you
Jason
 
What cartridge are you shooting?

Bolt closng problem could be the case in not sized correct or somethng like that.

there are some really good write up on how to load and finding a load that works for you gun in the link below.

Sniper's Hide Reloading
 
First off let me say I appreciate what your trying to achieve.But (there is always a but right?) you have already handicapped yourself by your poor choice in bullet selection to reach 1k and "tight groups" IMO.What kind of brass prep do you do?Have you tried to shoot a OCW or ladder test?Are you shooting a factory or custom rifle? Gives us a little more info and maybe we can help you further the process along.
 
Ok. Great. Thank you for answering. Just found out about the ladder test reading the forum yesterday. A was writing in my initial entry I shoot a factory made tikka t3 lite in 308 caliber. As far as brass prep is concerned I use a lee turret press to resize the cases and throw powder seat bullets and crimp in the end. My main focus now is not 1k shooting but rather keep a tight group at 200 yard or 300 mark.
 
Walk before you run. Your bullet choices are fine for the walking part. When you speak generally of a "decent group" at 100, most here consider that to be less than .5", you may consider 2" decent. Let us know what it is. You won't get help with specifics unless you are specific.
Your bolt closing is likely improper case sizing or your case isn't trimmed back or something. All we know about your operation is the press. What dies are you using? Will an unloaded sized case chamber in the gun?
Read through carefully and understand the sticky's in the link provided by Jourdan.
By the way, reloading is very technical, for safety--YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE DOING!! and for accuracy----YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHY!! otherwise don't plan on shooting past 200yds much.
 
No1... Thank you for your "encouraging" tone. I would like a tight group @ 200 yds of 1". I use a lee pacesetter 3 die set. And yes the sized case fits in the gun. Very same case loaded with the hornady a max 168 grain allowed me to lock the bolt just fine. Again at 100 yds I shoot just fine 0.5" group but when I moved at 200 the spread was over 3 inches and not grouped.
 
Here is what I do, I measure to the lands and then I load a bullet far enough off them, when they are not set back far enough you will get a tight bolt feeling. I measure mine with a cool tool from Hornady it actually screws a threaded brass on the tool and let's you put a the type of bullet you want, and by push the bullet to the land's and then measuring it, you can subtract the numbers to give you the correct spacing, from the Ogive to the lands.
I use the Hornady O.A.L Strait Gauge and a set of calipers with the little bushing holder to find my exact ogive for what ever bullet.
Also a tight bolt maybe a kink in you brass, but if you are use the same seating die, you just may not have the bullet far enough back Oh yeah read and read some more of the reloading books.

BTW I thread my own once fired brass, so I know it is exactly how that gun's chamber is, Hornady will thread you once fired for like $15 + shipping
 
beside your load development strategy your gun may not be suited for what you are trying to achieve. If I am not mistaking the T3 lite (which is nice hunting rifle) has a lite barrel, not exactly suited for continuous firing.
 
I read different opinions in regard to tumbling the brass. Some suggest you take the spent primer out before tumbling some say it doesn't matter. Also what primer space cleaning is necessary. I am not using my t3 for continuous firing. I take my time such that the barrel doesn't get too hot.
 
I read different opinions in regard to tumbling the brass. Some suggest you take the spent primer out before tumbling some say it doesn't matter. Also what primer space cleaning is necessary. I am not using my t3 for continuous firing. I take my time such that the barrel doesn't get too hot.

You need to clean the primer pocket. Also, you should debur the flash hole, especially using Win brass. I love Win brass, but I have taken some chunks out of their flash holes. The deburring is a one-time action.
 
Ok.. Great FAlex. Tell me please if I need to take the primers out before I tumble and at what point in the reloading/ case prep I clean the pocket. Thanks
 
I don't know what tumbler or cleaner you have, but you should clean before you size, I do it again afterward, lube in the chamber causes problems, definitely get media out of flasholes
 
Ok Milo. Thanks. Walk me quick to the process da capo al fine please. You have a spent case in your hand. What do you do until it becomes a bullet. Quick list the steps please for me...1,2,3 etc. I appreciate it
 
1) deprime it and resize 2 clean out the flash holes and primer pockets 3) check over all length of case .... In case you have to trim.. And chamfer / deburr 4) tumble again 5) prime 6) charge 7) seat the bullet. 8) shoot the damn thing
 
1) deprime it and resize 2 clean out the flash holes and primer pockets 3) check over all length of case .... In case you have to trim.. And chamfer / deburr 4) tumble again 5) prime 6) charge 7) seat the bullet. 8) shoot the damn thing

YUP, do this
 
Ok. Another question for you gentleman. What are some examples of some decent not so expensive scales I might use. I got an electronic one I paid $30 on but I don't know how accurate it is and how well will allow me to tweak with charges in small increments to run the OCW test.
 
Also how is this for a question. My tikka t3 lite as in the name :rolleyes: appears to have a light stock and can be bouncy after a shot is fired. Someone suggested putting some metal rods in the stock. Can this procedure affect the accuracy of the later shots?
 
Ok. Another question for you gentleman. What are some examples of some decent not so expensive scales I might use. I got an electronic one I paid $30 on but I don't know how accurate it is and how well will allow me to tweak with charges in small increments to run the OCW test.


Generally speaking I don't think most folks here would use a 30$ scale. Most have charge masters or some other electronic dispenser that throws it and weighs it. I have to say that I do use a little 32$ Frankford Arsenel scale to double check sometimes
If I think my charge masters are throwing a little off.
A lot of other folks use beam scales to check after throwing powder. This is probably the most accurate way. As far as manual throwers ... There are a lot of good ones out there. I'd reccomend the Redding BR3 as it allows you to throw up to 100 grains of powder.
My
Personal choice would be a charge master. It's quick , pretty accurate, and you can weigh bullets , cases ect.. If you need to.
 
Should have said this before. In the world of scales... It's pretty much like good shooting rifles... You get what you pay for. IMHO
 
Also how is this for a question. My tikka t3 lite as in the name :rolleyes: appears to have a light stock and can be bouncy after a shot is fired. Someone suggested putting some metal rods in the stock. Can this procedure affect the accuracy of the later shots?

You may be better off with a mercury recoil reducer, check Brownell's. You'll want a somewhat professional job done here.

As for scales, AS is right, but you can get a good Redding or RCBS beam scale for under 100 bucks, no need to break the bank. The more you shoot the sooner you'll figure out what the biggest limiting factor is when you shoot.
 
Ok here's the steps I go thru after one firing.Keep in mind all my rifles have match chambers with the exception of 3 factory hunting rifles.This is basically a nutshell version.

1.Using a cordless drill and shellholder I clean all brass with 000 steel wool.I never tumble my brass but I might run it through a ultra sonic cleaner after 8-10 firings if it lasts that long.
2.Run it through a fl bushing die using Imperial die wax bumping the shoulder back .0005-.0015 and setting neck tension.
3.Trim to length,chamfer/deburr and uniform primer pockets,,I dont screw with flash holes as I use Norma and Lapua brass and dont feel the need since they are drilled not punched.
4.Run over all the brass again with the steel wool to remove any tiny burrs that MIGHT be there from the trimming.chamfer/deburring process.
5.Run a nylon brush into the necks for quick "clean up" not trying to remove all the carbon,, just a couple strokes.
6.Charge cases then seat bullets to ogive not COAL as I dont care what the length is unless I'm loading for DMB.
7.Load shoot have fun.

This is my process in a nutshell it works for me and I enjoy it. :)
 
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When you get back to troubleshooting the bolt closing problem with the sierra, make a dummy cartridge. Start with a fired case and resize it. Then check it in the gun. Then seat the bullet and check it in the gun. The idea is to identify which process is causing the abnormality that is making the bolt hard to close. When you find it inspect the case carefully and try to identify what is going on. hint-You can smoke the case with a lighter or match and chamber it to see where the resistance is.
 
What does a decent (including price wise) resizing equipment must include and what is good out there?
 
When running the OCW test what grain bullet is more advisable to begin for my 308 Tikka t3 lite. I have 150, 155. 168, and 175 grain available. This far ( and I am sure the test will reveal more info) it appears my gun shot more accurately with a lower grain (I.e. 150gr).
 
By a reloading kit that comes with a reloading manual and read it, it will answer ninety percent of the questions that you have plus give recommended charge weights to start with. Lee has good inexpensive kits. I started with a Lyman kit. Hornady and RCBS are also good.
 
I am going crazy trying to setup my Redding Competition Neck Sizing and Decapping die. The leaflet that comes with the set is of no help to me. Anyone has a link to a video or other way to explain the setup process for that one die please? Called Redding, but they are on their yearly vacation for a week. Thanks.
 
I am going crazy trying to setup my Redding Competition Neck Sizing and Decapping die. The leaflet that comes with the set is of no help to me. Anyone has a link to a video or other way to explain the setup process for that one die please? Called Redding, but they are on their yearly vacation for a week. Thanks.

What seems to be the problem?SET-UP PROCEDURE
The Redding Competition Bushing Style Neck Die may be used in most reloading presses with 7/8·14 threads. When installing the die in your reloading press it is very important to allow a slight clearance between the shellholder and the threaded die body.
Damage to the die body may result from the shell holder making contact under the forces possible in a reloading press. Under these conditions the die body may eventually become swaged to the point that the internal sliding sleeve no longer functions. NOTE: Damage may also result from a micrometer setting that is too low to allow full compression of the internal sliding sleeve (see MICROMETER ADJUSTMENT). If in doubt turn the micrometer counterclockwise two or three turns to insure clearance and proceed.
The best set-up procedure is as follows: Place the shellholder and press ram in the uppermost position. Screw the die in place until the threaded die body makes contact with the shell holder. [This will compress the sliding sleeve fully.) If the sliding sleeve will not compress fully. turn the micrometer counterclockwise until it will. Then turn the die body counterclockwise until the micrometer graduations are in front for easy reading. This method will allow from .020 to .070 clearance and protrusion of the sliding chamber sleeve. Lock the die in this position by means of the 7/8-14 lock ring provided.

MICROMETER AD.JUSTMENT
A neck sizing bushing must be in place for this adjustment. If the above set-up procedure was followed correctly the micrometer adjustment is now high by a turn or two which would result in sizing part of the neck length.
Place the press ram and shellholder in the uppermost position. No cartridge case should be in the shell holder at this time. You should now adjust the micrometer clockwise until you feel it stop. At this point the sizing bushing is adjusted to its lowest position possible You should now back the micrometer away from the bushing (counterclockwise) a minimum of ,005", This is the minimum amount of clearance that will prevent damage to the die (See SET·UP PROCEDURE).
The above micrometer adjustment is for sizing the entire length of the case neck. If you wish to size only 1/2 or 1/3 of your case neck, turn the micrometer counterclockwise the desired amount. Each turn represents .050" as marked on the micrometer barrel.
DECAPPING ROD AD.JUSTMENT
After micrometer adjustment, following the above procedure, the decapping rod may require adjustment. The ideal position will remove spent primers, yet not allow the decapping rod to make contact inside the cartridge case.
The easiest method to determine the position of the decapping rod is to compress the sliding sleeve fully and note the protrusion of the decapping pin itself. It should protrude from the die body 1/8" to 3/16" to properly remove spent primers. A good gage is the thickness of two nickels. A simple way to accomplish this with the die out of your reloading press, is to remove the return spring from the die and turn the die upside down to observe the primer pin protrusion.
The decapping rod is retained in position by a set screw accessible through the top of the micrometer barrel. Insert a 3/32" hex key through the hole to engage the hex socket of the set screw. This set screw makes contact with, and secures the decapping rod. Counterclockwise adjustment will loosen' the set screw and allow adjustment of the de capping rod. Each turn of the rod will equal 1 /32". Once the proper adjustment is made, retighten the set screw to secure the adjustment.
Any major change in micrometer setting will require a corresponding re-adjustment of the decapping rod.
 
What seems to be the problem?SET-UP PROCEDURE
The Redding Competition Bushing Style Neck Die may be used in most reloading presses with 7/8·14 threads. When installing the die in your reloading press it is very important to allow a slight clearance between the shellholder and the threaded die body.
....

Thank you N01, it worked, I have about 1,000 cases to work on now. I really appreciate your help.
 
Glad it's fixed. Here's some tips from Redding.
Other factors that can improve concentricity:
Lube case necks, even with TiN coated bushings.
Partial size case necks. Sizing 1/2 or 3/4 of the neck seems to be the most popular.
Try flipping the bushing over. We like to install them with the letters down to start with.
Trim cases mouths square so they will enter the bushing straight. Don't forget to chamfer the case mouth, inside and out. This is very important as it eases the entry of the case mouth into the bushing, and the bullet into the case mouth.
Anneal case necks. Cases that have been fired many times work harden and this causes excessive spring-back of the case necks.
 
If an empty, resized case does not allow the bolt to close, the shoulder is too long, and the die needs to be screwed down about 1/4 turn at a time until there is a light but perceptible bolt drag when closing. If the bolt is still hard to close again after seating the bullet, the bullet is seated too long. Crimping is seldom needed for bolt guns.

As a handloading beginner, concentrate on getting the basic reloading operations done in a neat and consistent manner. As a basic warning, if anything you're doing requires you to use a lot of force on the loader handle, something is very likely wrong with the way you're doing that step. Stay well within published load limits until you learn how to reliably recognize pressure issues. Advanced techniques come later, and are only really useful for more experienced shooter/handloaders, and highly refined rifles.

Walk first, then think about running.

Anything labeled 'competition' is probably overkill for feeding a factory rifle; nice, but not necessary, and if you're doing everything right, will seldom show a significant accuracy improvement until you're shooting your ammo in precision rifle with advanced gunsmithing attention. Gear does not make the shooter; it's very much the other way around..

Concentrate on getting 5rd groups down to under 1" at 100yd. Most if us would like to do 1" at 200yd, but that only really happens rarely. As G. David Tubb has said, a good 1/2MOA rifle at 100yd is often a good 2MOA rifle at 1000yd. If you can center 2MOA on a 1000yd target, you can shoot a perfect score; but that rarely happens either, even for Mr. Tubb, who is a many time National Highpower Champion.

Goals need to be attainable, and established in a progressive manner. There is no way too 'cut to the chase' where marksmanship is concerned. Trying to jump the line will only lead to frustration, and frustration is the thing that drives the impatient among us bonkers. Only success will drive improvement, and only realistic, attainable goals allow success.

For beyond 800yd, consider using 175 or 178gr bullets.

That's enough for a good start.

Greg
 
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I have purchased a hornady reloading manual but this info is not there hawk

The problem you maybe having with the bolt closing I also had when I started reloading a few years ago. Most dies are set up so that you have to make you press "cam over" when using your FL die. What I had to do was raise the ram, run your die down until it touches. Then lower you ram then turn your die another 1/2 to 3/4 turn. You want to play with this amount that you turn it in. They are large threads. Turn the die a little at a time removing the case and checking it in your chamber. You want a snug fit but not difficult to close.

That is the technique that I have developed and works for me. You will find that everybody that reloads has thier own technique to accomplish the same objective.
 
Dont know about my 308 brass but with my 6 Creedmoor brass all it takes is less than a 1/8 turn to bump the shoulder back, but I do have to bump the shoulders back on my Lapua 308 brass, one of the shells I loaded for the 600yd shoot turned a bit hard on sunday.
Cat, i understand your Tikka is a Lite model, if I were wanting to shoot to 1K id invest in something that looks like this. It's my 700SPSS in 308, a solid .5moa out to 600yds, if you dont count that lower 5th bullet the other day, hahaha. My load, 46.5grs CFE223 under 168AMAX, Lapua brass, BR2 primers, 7oz Jewell trigger, H-S Police stock(M24). Im wondering what your running for a scope?
s5mDIwx.jpg
 
Be careful about pushing the shoulder further than is needed to get that light bolt drag. If it is shorter, every bit of additional brass work can contribute to excessive head space. Really excessive head space can cause head separation after repeated firings, and if it's really, really too short, the firing pin can even push the cartridge out of the way instead of igniting the primer (rare, but still a possibility; most dies will bottom out before this can occur).

If you 'cam over', keep it within reason; too much can damage a press. Remember the warning about using a lot of force in anything associated with handloading.

Greg
 
And also I have acquired a headspace gauge and a bullet comparator. Could you please share with what am I looking for and how to implement the findings? I watched many videos on HOW to use it.
 
finding the load is a lot of trial and error I mean you can only keep trying until you find the right amount, If your lucky you get a good group first try
 
How much is a rifle like that. Currently for my scope on my tikka I have a Millett 4-16x50 Tactical Riflescope, Matte Black w/ Illuminated Mil-Dot Bar Reticle BK81001 Reviews - MS-RS-TacScope-BK81001
 
How much is a rifle like that. Currently for my scope on my tikka I have a Millett 4-16x50 Tactical Riflescope, Matte Black w/ Illuminated Mil-Dot Bar Reticle BK81001 Reviews - MS-RS-TacScope-BK81001

On this rifle? Ive got 1700 into it with everything. Not including the bipod, my scope is a Burris 6-24 Signature.
SJa1oC5.jpg
 
I do think it's a decent group, especially for a factory rifle, and you will do better as things progress. You certainly have motivation to keep it up.

Saturday, I watched a visiting shooter stack 5 rounds in a row into the same hole at 250yd during a 10rd string in our twice-monthly FV250 Match with a factory Savage .308 F T/R; so such things can be done, but I was simply floored while I watched. Not all factory rifles are created equal.

I have long appreciated the factory rifle. With decent load development and a decent shooter, they can do pretty amazing things. For most shooters, they are far and away capable of outshooting their operator. For the dedicated load developer/student of marksmanship, one will eventually find a plateau beyond which advanced gunsmithing can actually bring visible improvement. It is at that point that all those advanced handloading tools and techniques can show their true contribution to accuracy improvement.

I have only one rifle that qualifies as an advanced gunsmithing product. It is the only rifle for which I maintain higher quality dies and brass, etc. I am at the stage where the rifle still has quite a lot to teach me.

Headspace gauge and bullet comparator; I think they can have some benefit.

In the world of factory rifles and ammunition, chambers and ammunition are dimensioned in reference to a (SAAMI) standard. It's a good starting point for the beginner. The headspace gauge will allow case comparison to that standard, hopefully your chamber will also be close to that standard, and the industry's standard (and generous) dimensional deviation tolerance will ensure that factory ammo will function acceptably in a factory chamber. But the greater the deviation between that 'standard' chamber and the one in your specific rifle is, then the more that gauge will foster a fiction.

A bullet comparator measures seating depth as indicated off the bullet's ogive. It is another reference tool. It needs to have a paired reference, relative to the subject barrel's point of rifling engagement, in order to render meaningful data.

These are all useful data references, but there is the discrepancy between standards and reality. To get real compatibility between ammo and rifle, there needs to be an understanding of how the variances between that reality and the standard will affect performance.

Just as I use standard 2 die sets for my ammo fabrication, I also forego the headspace gauge and bullet comparator, because there is a more direct and reliable way to craft ammo to fit my specific rifle.

You see, the gauge constitutes an intermediate step in establishing the reference, and gives numbers as a means to correct any incompatibilities. My methods employ the rifle and ammo directly, and leave out the intermediate step. Yes, I will not know the numbers involved, but for me, the numbers are unimportant. What is important is the actual relationship between the rifle's needs and the ammo's compatibility.

Remember the part about adjusting the resizing die until the bolt drag becomes mild to moderate? Well, that nothing less than employing the chamber and resized case themselves as the headspace gauge.

Remember my comment about using the permanent marker on bullet method to establish a seating depth reference? Well, that is nothing less that using the chamber and seated bullet themselves in order to find that rifling engagement point in a manner that is functionally very similar to that of the comparator.

There are no numbers involved. There is also no question about dimensional compatibilities.

The competition sizing and seating dies do things in a similar way. They allow an arbitrary reference number to be established so ammunition can be constructed and adjusted to an arbitrary standard. But they size and seat pretty much the identically same way as the standard die. If one learns how to work with the standard die, and read/feel the compatibility of the ammunition to the rifle's chamber and rifling, then the reference numbers become superfluous; and one becomes capable of building precisely the same ammunition without needing to employ the more sophisticated dies.

In some ways, eliminating the intermediate reference may even have the capacity to craft even better ammunition, but there is a huge caveat; one needs to know precisely what one is doing, including all the why's and potential consequences. This is the place where knowledge and experience become mandated, and there are no shortcuts around that.

Now, people will talk about issues like runout and concentricity, or ogive length variances and other very real statistics.

But the salient point is simply that with the factory rifle's SAAMI standard-based (and generous, some will say sloppy. Don't be so sure 'sloppy' is such a dirty word...) dimensional tolerances, these statistics become largely meaningless. You can vary the cartridge configuration from zero to fairly significant 'error' values, and the rifle simply doesn't care, it shoots either cartridge with the same degree of dispersion. In fact, slaving for hours over a hot loading press will likely buy you no more accuracy than simply doing the more basic steps with the basic tools with good care and diligence; divesting oneself of a high degree of stress, frustration, and confusion.

Fortunately, you have a choice. You can go basic, stay basic with good care and diligence, or become a handloading dilettante. With the factory rifle, the outcomes are virtually identical.

In several decades of handloading I have gone through all the stages, starting precisely the same way as you are doing now.

Basically, I learned that all the tools and techniques have value, and that for most of the advanced ones, an advanced rifle is needed in order to properly realize their potential.

I also learned that the modern factory rifle, with good ammo assembled in a basic but diligent manner, coupled with serious attention to marksmanship basics, can attain accuracy goals that will satisfy all but the most demandingly obsessed shooter.

Today, I value handloading as an irreplaceable resource, but also as a necessary evil; to be accomplished in the most direct and least complicated manner possible. Its primary value is in how it supports the marksmanship progression process. When we allow it to take center stage, we become its servant, and not its master.

In my world, the equipment must serve the shooter, and not vice-versa.

Finally, the advanced rifles and handloading methodologies are not for the timid.

Such rifles can become demanding divas, and can task the shooter to the point where shooting becomes a job, rather than recreation. They can become so picky about ammo that only their precise recipe can be shot in them safely. They can have a bad day because the ammo and the weather can't come to an agreement.

So be careful what you dream for, you may get it.

Greg
 
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Thank you Greg for taking your time and being so gracious, patient, and detailed with answering. I genuinely appreciate your insight in conjunction with your apparent expertise. It is so refreshing to see people responding with a considerate heart rather acting as a"professor know-it-all". I will take some time this weekend and meticulously "play" with my reloading info you have provided. Last night I tried to assess with the naked eye why the bolt would be hard to close with my .308 reloads. It appeared to me the neck of the case was longer in my resized brass compared to a factory unspent cartridge. Initially I believed the COL is above adequate parameters but then I realized that closing the bolt with an empty case was a difficult feat. Surmising the info in your write up I concluded I will have to adjust the resizing die a bit deeper( you suggested 1/4 turn) and then try with the empty case first. Am I on the right track here?
 
Maybe; but you also need to check the case's overall length against the reloading guide's info on maximum case length and trim-to length. Attempting to fire a cartridge with an excessive case length can generate serious pressure spikes.

More precisely, I suggest a 1/4 turn at a time..., until the bolt closure drag moderates.

Understand, I am not condemning anything related to gauges and competition dies. If you have them, use them, in the manner they instructed to be used. Just recognize that they use one approach to ammunition making, and that there are other ways that allow one to succeed with and without them.

When I began the more serious stages in my approach to learning good marksmanship, I did so with very little resources, with a judgmental eye toward popular wisdom, and with a commitment to understand before I ventured into unknown areas. I had to reinvent a number of wheels before I felt comfortable in those areas. I also took to heart my Father's and Elder Brothers' convictions that knowledge gained does not show its true value until it is passed on.

Greg
 
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Guys, You are talking about 1/4 turn past the shell holder, right? I'd start out with 1/8" turn, or maybe less. It shouldn't take a full 1/4 turn past the shell holder to bump a shoulder.
 
Not talking about 1/4 turn past the shell holder. I never said anything about the shell holder or cam-over. Why do people insist on reading in things I never wrote?

Talking about starting with the die where it is when the bolt closure is too firm, then adjusting it 1/4 turn at a time until the bolt closure drag becomes light to moderate. If you reach the cam-over, stop there; more lever pressure will not accomplish anything further. As JGorski advises, going past a light but definite cam-over is not productive. If memory serves, none of my die setups require cam-over, but chambers vary, and some may.

Going back to the seating depth; I start by seating a bullet in a dummy case just long enough so it should definitely engage the rifling. I mark the bullet with a dark permanent marker from just above the neck to somewhere about half-way up to the point. After it dries, I chamber and extract the round, and inspect the marker area for rifling contact marks. I then screw down the seater by about 1/4 turn at a time, bump the bullet down in the seater, remark, chamber, and extract the dummy enough times that I can no longer find rifling contact marks. I measure the cartridge overall length, then adjust the die so it seats the bullet another .010"-.015" shorter, and lock down the seater stem.

This establishes an arbitrary jump value that is long enough to ensure that even with ogive length variances, all the bullets will jump. Given a choice between jumping and jamming, I prefer to jump; there should be fewer issues with pressure spikes than might occur with jamming. Yes, there are probably some accuracy benefits to tuning the jump to a finer tolerance, but I just try to ensure that all the bullets jump (or jam, if that is your choice), and leave it at that. Running closer tolerances can create issues stemming from component consistency. By choosing a more broad tolerance, such issues diminish.

As you have probably gathered by now from this series of posts, I engage in some trade-offs, trading small increments of accuracy for greater simplicities in the reloading process.

When one insists on seeking ultimate accuracy, one likewise embarks on a path that sentences them to a regimen of demanding efforts and painstaking discrimination. One exposes oneself to myriad vulnerabilities, becoming a slave to random chance and manufacturing tolerances. Shooting becomes a job, where one toils in vain pursuit of largely unattainable goals. It becomes more about missing the unattainable, and less about enjoying success.

If we combine this quest with a factory rifle' s looser clearances, we are simply spinning our wheels, bigtime...

Shooting, in all its aspects, is supposed to be, first and foremost, an enjoyable avocation. If you constantly set yourself up to fail, eventually the avocation becomes nothing more than high priced self-flagellation.

With time, one eventually recognizes that perfection is nowhere near being attainable, and more important, was never a realistic requirement in the first place. One learns to accept the concept of adequate vs ultimate accuracy

That deer never gets to care whether that hunting load provides 1/2MOA vs 2MOA accuracy. Dead is dead.

If 2MOA does not provide an adequate accuracy margin, you're shooting too far. If you cartridge is so short on terminal performance that ridiculously precise shot placement is mandatory, you are shooting too little cartridge; use a bigger chambering.

It's actually far better to do a thing without one arm tied behind your back. It's really no more complicated than that.

Most of us are never going to win or lose a match on the X-count, either.

If I drop a point (or two at most) due to my tradeoffs, they are far overshadowed by my own dumb/numbskull marksmanship screw-ups. My handloading philosophies are not my main problem by a long shot.

When I miss, it's very seldom the equipment that's failing. I may have some company in that boat.

Reiterating; a decently made factory rifle, coupled with good load development and reasonable handloading care, and good marksmanship diligence, is one heckuva target defeating combination. Most of us will be very satisfied with that combination, even if we never manage to eke out that last miniscule iota of potential. There is something very sound and satisfying in the knowledge that you can make your own rifle, even a crusty war veteran, perform better than anyone else can. I own enough rifles that developing each one to its full potential could very well occupy at least the entire rest of my life. I intend to find out, and I plan on enjoying that venture.

Heaven on earth, for me, would be a reloading setup inside the house, instead of the unheated/uncooled garage, and a 250yd range in the back yard, instead of a half hour drive away.

Greg
 
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Not talking about 1/4 turn past the shell holder. I never said anything about the shell holder or cam-over. Why do people insist on reading in things I never wrote?
Greg
Sorry bout that, Greg, I didnt think you said that, just didnt read your whole post.
Ive noticed one thing through the years of reloading when you do this in regards to resizing is that you can get the first shell adjusted correctly then the 3rd or 5th or 10th shell might be tighter due to the shoulder not being set back, then you have to go back and turn your die in ever so slightly and do them all over again, or maybe just do the one, but then out of a hundred cases there might be more of them, not that Ive done that, I just leave as is, but for the ultimate in accuracy it's something you probably should do.