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AR- whitch one ?

acts238

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 2, 2011
756
19
65
N W Montana
I have decided I want - need- mostly want
one of those evil black rifles
there are so many brands to choose from
so I come to ask those who have AR knowledge
-which one to build or buy under 1500.00
(I think) I want- need a chrome bolt & a 7 or 8 twist chrome barrel- 55- 75 gr bullets
any responses appreciated
 
OP: What do you primarily envision yourself doing with the AR?

* Plinking/Home and property defense
* Recreational Target shooting with accuracy in-mind
* Service Rifle Competition
* Competitive action shooting with lots of running, room-clearing, and shooting out to 400yds
* Hunting medium game
* Varmint-shooting
* Maybe reaching out a little farther in the beautiful terrain of Montana

Answers to this question will help provide much more specific and useful advice in your quest.
 
You can a Daniel Defense rifle for that budget.....

was just going to post this.

If I was in the market at the 1500 price point it would be a DDM4V7 LW.

If I wanted to be completely up and running with accessories for 1500 it would be a Colt 6920, then some mags, a sling, light, etc...
 
intended use- wolves -coyotes-wolves -home defense-wolves- maybe a pd or 3 & did I say wolves ?
I would like to know about pro's and cons of building v buying
one more question
can one lower -AR 10- use 223 and 308 uppers ?
thanks for all the response's guys -appreciated
 
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intended use- wolves -coyotes-wolves -home defense-wolves- maybe a pd or 3 & did I say wolves ?
I would like to know about pro's and cons of building v buying
one more question
can one lower -AR 10- use 223 and 308 uppers ?
thanks for all the response's guys -appreciated

While many AR15's chambered in 5.56 NATO or .223 Wylde would handle wolves & coyotes just fine within 200yds, I think your particular requirements might steer you in a different direction than an M4orgery, as quality as the Colt 6920 and DD M4 models are, and I will say that Colt has more institutional knowledge about what makes an AR15 run than many companies will ever give them credit for.

A lot of hunters like shock effect on the coyotes and wolves. Not sure what you want, but that can steer you into good bullet selection, and other calibers. If you have skittish yotes or savvy wolves in your area, and they are hard to get within 400yds on, you might consider another caliber or a longer barrel .223 Wylde spitting higher BC pills.

You also might look into one of the 6mm's like the 6mm Hagar or 6mm AR, or a 6.5 Grendel. I would look at caliber that bucks the wind well, and has a lot of hunting projectiles in the 85gr weight and up. Out here in the West, I know how the distances are usually farther than what a lot of hunters encounter East of the Mississippi, so it really pays off to have a fast-shooting, high BC, low-recoil set-up for dealing with 4-legged vermin.

I know some guys that really like the 6mm AR Turbo for hunting yotes, if we're talking AR15's out in the Rocky Mountain Plains and foothills. They usually opt for a 20-22" barrel, launching good varmint bullets at 2930fps to 3200fps. A 105gr A-MAX at over 2900fps is pretty awesome with its .500 BC.

I personally wouldn't hesitate to take my 16" 6.5 Grendel on such an excursion, but I would want to register the area with a live shot if the distance was going to be much past 400yds. My carbine consistently has shot ~1 MOA for me...some 4rd groups have been just under .8 MOA, and some 1.2 MOA. With the smaller vital zone of yotes and wolves, accuracy is more important than when shooting medium game. You also have more likelihood of a moving target, which is why a lot of hunters like the fast 6mm's in the AR15. Are you trying to preserve the wolf skins?

The biggest obstacle for getting into a 6mm AR or Turbo is that the few shops that build them price complete uppers just above your stated budget, and you need the dies, as this will be a reloader's cartridge/wildcat. The 6.5 Grendel brass is easy enough to size and load, but it is one extra step of course.

You can also run the Grendel with a 20" or longer barrel, and push an 85gr Sierra HP, 90gr TNT, or 95gr V-MAX from 2956fps to 2850fps, but the BC's on those lightweight pills are in the .2's and .3's, which is why predator hunters like the 6mm so much in the AR15.

The benefits of the Grendel are that it's a SAAMI cartridge, and there are several sources for factory ammunition and mags. You don't need to spend $1600 to get into a Grendel upper either.

Maybe a 20" .223 Wylde would be your best bet for now, and load the 75gr A-MAX to 2800fps. Once you get a feel for the AR15, then consider stepping into another caliber. If you do go .223 Wylde, go with a 1/8 twist barrel if you're trying to reach out and snatch yotes and wolves.

As to building vs. buying, the most important factor is knowledge of what the AR15 Technical Data Package is when considering either route. There are a lot of companies sourcing parts that don't have a clue as to what they don't know. Much of the time, with a consumer base that might only be plinking, they can get away with cutting corners they don't know they're cutting.

The same holds true for a builder. You don't know what you don't know. I've been dealing with these things since the 1980's, and I learn something new every chance I get. Basically, every part you would look at and think is standardized, isn't. I could go on, but it would be a book.
 
RRA ATH! It will do everything. And damn well. Plus you'll have some left over $ for accessories. As far as 308 and 223 lowers being interchanging, none that I know of are. My opinion the ATH is the perfect AR.
 
I got a precision firearms 6.5 grendel, and I think it is the most accurate gun I own! I own A DTA, and a custom 700 so that's saying something. Shoots under 2" at 400 yards.
 
For hunting under 400 yards go 6.8 spc II.....if you are target shooting over 400 yrds and reload go 6.5 Grendel.
 
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Colt has a multi caliber lower on their 901 carbine. I've seen it in person, but haven't actually seen the conversion piece used.
 
RRA is a great rifle in my experience, the new colt has an interchangable system 308/556. I dont know if O would like it though. On my last 3 trips through montana on a motorcycle I was at a 45 degree tilt across the whole dam state, constant wind, get teh 308 for your state, scale of the landscape out there is just too big for a 223. a 260 will work to. Beautiful place you live in.

RRA ATH! It will do everything. And damn well. Plus you'll have some left over $ for accessories. As far as 308 and 223 lowers being interchanging, none that I know of are. My opinion the ATH is the perfect AR.
 
Colt, Daniel defense, and BCM all adhere to the Technical data specifications, and have models available in your price range. Any of these would be a good choice. Going with a basic model would allow you to purchase some accessories and magazines, and still stay within your budget.
Building a complete rifle will require some specialized tools which will eat up anything you might save. Additionally some of the better quality parts are still difficult to locate. If you decide to go this route, you might consider building a lower, and buying a complete upper. Again, I would source my components from the above manufacturers.
 
I've had a bunch but ended up keeping my JP-15. it's a little bit more than $!500 but if you look around, you can get one close to that
 
For hunting under 400 yards go 6.8 spc II.....if you are target shooting over 400 yrds and reload go 6.5 Grendel.

For hunting under 400yds, why would you recommend less impact velocity and retained energy than the Grendel, with more wind drift? Hitting the vitals on yotes and wolves is more difficult than medium game. You can get it done, but why handicap yourself?

The only case based on the 6.8 I would even consider for this would be the 6mm Hagar, which has factory brass available for it now from Hornady, Hornady Dies are a production item now, but you still need to find someone to make your barrel and it will cost you. Within the AR15, you are limited to lower-BC bullets as well, like the 75gr V-MAX. The 6mm AR allows the use of the full line of VLD pills for the 6mm, and at 2850fps plus, you will out-gas the .3 BC range pills easily to reach the predators.
 
For $1500 and < I would look to Colt, BCM, and DD. I would also consider buying a factory Noveske upper and building a lower myself for not much more $.
 
I think a lot of people missed his post #6. The main distinguishing characteristic the OP has stated is that he needs this AR to take out coyotes, and wolves, wolves, wolves. His State of residence is listed as Montana. I'm guessing wolves are a problem for him or ranchers in his area, and he intends to deal out some high-performance, super-accurate semi-automatic death to predatory menaces to the livestock.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/221/550437269_0d949624f4.jpg
 
For hunting under 400yds, why would you recommend less impact velocity and retained energy than the Grendel, with more wind drift? Hitting the vitals on yotes and wolves is more difficult than medium game. You can get it done, but why handicap yourself?

The only case based on the 6.8 I would even consider for this would be the 6mm Hagar, which has factory brass available for it now from Hornady, Hornady Dies are a production item now, but you still need to find someone to make your barrel and it will cost you. Within the AR15, you are limited to lower-BC bullets as well, like the 75gr V-MAX. The 6mm AR allows the use of the full line of VLD pills for the 6mm, and at 2850fps plus, you will out-gas the .3 BC range pills easily to reach the predators.

Huh? More disinformation.... The spc II factory ammunition have significantly more velocity/energyand better hunting pills than the Grendel under 300 to 350 yds... Even more velocity and retained energy available if hand loading... Example Wilson combat 110 grain tsx at 2700 fps factory ammo..or the 140 gr SSA Bergers at 2405 fps.. Hand loads can achieve even more velocity without over pressure from a 16" barrel... Velocity is king under 400 yrds.... Grendel has better bc pills available so it will perform better at longer distances but you really need to hand load for great performance and generally need a longer barrel... I'm betting you simply want to get a Grendel vs 6.8 discussion going and probably post old 6.8 chambering velocities before the spc II chamber came about....im not going to debate what most know.... The 6.8 outperforms the Grendel for under 350 yards.... They are pretty comparable 350 to 450 and Grendel begins to shine past that.... If someone is primarily hunting under 400 yrds the 6.8 has more/better factory hunting ammunition readily available and you can even buy ammo at Walmart....I don't try to use one rifle for every circumstance as every caliber is a trade off in some way.. .. I like to pick the tool that I feel is best for the job at hand.... For me if I'm shooting over 400 yrds I'm using a 6.5 CM.
 
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Huh? More disinformation.... The spc II factory ammunition have significantly more velocity/energyand better hunting pills than the Grendel under 300 to 350 yds... Even more velocity and retained energy available if hand loading... Example Wilson combat 110 grain tsx at 2700 fps factory ammo..or the 140 gr SSA Bergers at 2405 fps.. Hand loads can achieve even more velocity without over pressure from a 16" barrel... Velocity is king under 400 yrds.... Grendel has better bc pills available so it will perform better at longer distances but you really need to hand load for great performance and generally need a longer barrel... I'm betting you simply want to get a Grendel vs 6.8 discussion going and probably post old 6.8 chambering velocities before the spc II chamber came about....im not going to debate what most know.... The 6.8 outperforms the Grendel for under 350 yards.... They are pretty comparable 350 to 450 and Grendel begins to shine past that.... If someone is primarily hunting under 400 yrds the 6.8 has more/better factory hunting ammunition readily available and you can even buy ammo at Walmart....I don't try to use one rifle for every circumstance as every caliber is a trade off in some way.. .. I like to pick the tool that I feel is best for the job at hand.... For me if I'm shooting over 400 yrds I'm using a 6.5 CM.

For yotes and wolves at distance, I'm actually leaning towards a 6mm running fast from at least a 20" barrel. For a factory option, the Grendel is superior to the 6.8 within the distances you are discussing. I've followed 6.8 development since 2002, and had my hands on it in 2003. The SPC II chamber corrects the SAAMI abortion back to the original chamber specs basically, with a correct throat angle.

If you want to run the numbers on a 6.8 Barnes TSX with a .323 BC at 2700fps, versus a 6.5 Grendel 123gr SST with a .510 BC at 2460fps, be my guest. I have less drift and have already matched the 6.8's energy at 100yds, with 14" of drift for 10mph at 400yds, while the 110gr TSX from the 6.8 has 21" of drift at 400yds. If you have ever been to Montana, you would be impressed with how significant wind is. This is why I would want a fast, high-BC system for taking yotes and wolves at distance.

Of all the AR's I have, I would take my .260 Rem for static positions at the ranch, and have the Grendel carbine on a 4-Wheeler when policing the fence-line. The Grendel starts to outshine the 6.8 before 200yds, even when I handicap the Grendel with a 14.5" barrel vs. a 16" 6.8 SPC. You lose all your velocity and energy quickly with a short, fat, lightweight pill, and you have no real wind-drift advantage against a 5.56 with the 6.8, especially when considering the 77gr SMK, 75gr BTHP, and 75gr A-MAX, and those will be flatter at 5.56 velocities.

For those that think this is splitting hairs, take a rifle that shoots pills in the .3 BC range really fast, and put it next to one that shoots pills in the .5 range at moderate velocities, and see what your wind drift looks like at 400yds. The 16" Grendel is almost half of what most .223 loads are, and that means a much higher probability of hit in the wind. East of the Mississippi in dense forest, you won't have a lot of wind, although you might have some running through farm fields and open areas. It's nothing like the Rockies though, where you will encounter vast terrain as far as the eye can see, especially in Montana, ID, UT, WY, CO, NM, the mountains in AZ, and Sierra Nevada's in CA.

A 6.8 will get thrown around in the wind like a rag doll where I live once you push past 200yds or when the wind is at 20mph. The Grendel bucks through it like no other factory load that will fit in the AR15, even from the 16" gun. I see a lot of high-volume shooting through spotting scopes in this terrain, and anything spitting a .3 BC pill even at 3000fps sucks terribly in the wind. It just isn't appropriate for what the OP is looking for, based on his stated targets and the terrain you find in Montana.

OP: Another consideration is the weapon profile for your particular build. If you're of a certain height/weight, that can really influence what barrel length and furniture set-up will be best for your needs, and the AR15 allows you to fit the gun to yourself without needing customization from a European-approach rifle maker. I wish I could come help out and slay some critters for you.
 
LRRPF52 knows his stuff. I would listen to him. 6.5 Grendel or one of its variants would be perfect for the task at hand. I have a Precision Firearms 6.5 Grendel and love it.
 
What factory Grendel ammunition are you getting that velocity from? 123 grain sst @ 2460 fps? Barrel length? Funny how you don't mention the 140 gr. Factory berger loads.....you can scew things anyway you want by not comparing apples to apples..... Like hands loads to factory loads, different length barrels, low bc to high bc pills etc.... Very easy to get higher velocities with either cartridge reloading..... There are pros and cons to both and what I've already posted is accurate..... Also the 6.8 continues to evolve. With the new LWRC six8 and larger magwell we most likely will see the ability to load to longer OAL and get even better performance......
 
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I get 2460fps from the Hornady factory loads with my 16" MLGS Grendel, which doesn't really matter, because I can take the 14.5" Grendel and still hold better wind than a 16" or even 18" 6.8 SPC with the 120gr SST, and beat it for energy and speed:

14.5" Grendel, 123gr SST, 2350fps, 100yd Zero, 2.5" Optic Height
Code:
       Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift
      (yards)     (fps)     (ft-lb)       (MILS)         (sec)         (MILS)
          0      2350        1508           0.00         0.0000         0.00
         50      2267        1404          -0.22         0.0650        -0.11
        100      2186        1305           0.00         0.1323        -0.23
        150      2107        1212          -0.26         0.2022        -0.35
        200      2029        1124          -0.66         0.2748        -0.48
        250      1953        1041          -1.14         0.3501        -0.61
        300      1879         964          -1.67         0.4284        -0.74
        350      1806         891          -2.24         0.5099        -0.88
        400      1736         823          -2.86         0.5946        -1.03
        450      1668         759          -3.51         0.6827        -1.18
        500      1601         700          -4.21         0.7745        -1.33
        550      1538         646          -4.96         0.8701        -1.50
        600      1477         596          -5.74         0.9697        -1.66

16" 6.8 SPC, 120gr SST, 2460fps, 100yd Zero, 2.5" Optic Height
Code:
       Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift
      (yards)     (fps)     (ft-lb)       (MILS)         (sec)         (MILS)
          0      2460        1612           0.00         0.0000         0.00
         50      2352        1474          -0.26         0.0624        -0.14
        100      2247        1345           0.00         0.1276        -0.28
        150      2144        1225          -0.23         0.1959        -0.43
        200      2044        1113          -0.61         0.2676        -0.58
        250      1947        1010          -1.07         0.3428        -0.74
        300      1853         915          -1.59         0.4218        -0.91
        350      1762         827          -2.16         0.5048        -1.09
        400      1674         747          -2.78         0.5921        -1.28
        450      1590         674          -3.46         0.6841        -1.47
        500      1510         607          -4.19         0.7809        -1.68
        550      1434         548          -4.98         0.8828        -1.89
        600      1363         495          -5.84         0.9902        -2.11

Look at what a 14.5" SBR Grendel does with a factory Hornady SST load at 200yds, compared to a factory Hornady 6.8 120gr SST load at 2460fps from a 16" Carbine. Besides having less wind drift, it also has overtaken the 6.8 for energy. By 250yds, it has overtaken it for velocity, even though it started 110fps slower. And it is a very accurate, affordable load. Have you seen anybody printing sub-MOA 5rd groups with the 140gr Berger load for the 6.8, which only fits certain mags and chambers, with a warning label from SSA? It has a BC of .487, costs $33 a box, and needs a tighter twist. The 123gr 6.5 Grendel SST has a BC of .510, and is $22 a box, fits in all the Grendel mags, while feeding in Grendel chambers without caveats.

If you had followed closely the Six8 developments for Saudi & Jordanian body guards, you would see that the mag well increased in width so that a polymer magazine could be used. There is no increased COL with the Six8, unfortunately. It would have been great for the 6mm Hagar shooters, if the receiver set would be available for individual purchase and the COL was increased.

For the OP's needs, something with a 20"-22" barrel makes more sense, whether he goes .223 Wylde, 6mm Hagar, 6mm-AR, or 6.5 Grendel. He needs a fast, high-BC pill to smack predators with from the AR15. Another option would be the D-Tech WSSM in either .243 WSSM or 6.5/.243 WSSM, but it's a reloader's endeavor only. Velocities are extremely impressive with the 6.5mm WSSM, more like a .260 AI. That would bring the smackdown on yotes and wolves well past 400yds. You could run a 129gr SST or 130gr Berger at 3100fps like it was cool, but brass availability and reloading hinder it compared to a factory option.

D-Tech actually has prices within OP's budget for getting started, but OP would have to dedicate some time to hand-loading for it. Dtech Custom AR-15 WSSM Upper Recievers - D-Tech - Custom AR-15 Upper Receivers
 
Again I stand by my previous post...the velocity in your example is anemic for the 6.8 spc II. Not a very good example of its capabilities and looks more like a saami spec load than a spc II load. I'm also not inclined to believe your examples due to Hornady listing the 6.5 Grendel 123 sst as having 2350(16" barrel) fps NOT 2460 fps like you boast earlier. You are off by 110 fps... .The 2350 fps used in your ballistic table is also an exaggeration since you said it was out of a 14.5" barrel and again Hornady said that is the 16" barrel velocity..... So that wasn't accurate either.. It's not a good example when you. Exagerate one rifles performance and then use an anemic load to old specs to compare it to. Now if you were paying attention to the six8 you would know that while the magpul magazine itself doesn't allow longer OAL, LWRC has every intention of different types of magazines that are not polymer being made to allow for longer OAL.... The magpul magazine was a contract requirement.... So you really think no one else will make magazines? It's been talked about by people involved in the platform, non polymer magazines allowing for longer OAL on 6.8 forums and is an obvious progression regardless. Skewing facts for whatever reason is ridiculous ..... Both are great choices and perform fantastic in their respective arena's but if someone isn't shooting over 400 yds and is primarily using the rifle for hunting the 6.8 is the better choice.... More factory hunting ammunition choices available if you don't reload.. And ammunition available at Walmart which is convenient.
 
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If you are left-handed, you may want to make sure that whatever AR you're considering has ambidextrous controls. Another consideration is direct impingement vs piston. DI is usually lighter, but piston is cleaner. Some people say that DI guns are also more accurate, but there are too many variables to make that generalization.
 
Again I stand by my previous post... Even in your example the 6.8 outperforms up to 250 yds and one could give examples with 6.8 performing even better as the velocity in your example is anemic for the 6.8 spc II. Im also not inclined to believe your examples due to Hornady listing the 6.5 Grendel 123 sst as having 2350(16" barrel) fps NOT 2460 fps like you boast earlier. You are off by 110 fps... .The 2350 fps used in your ballistic table is also an exaggeration since you said it was out of a 14.5" barrel and again Hornady said that is the 16" barrel velocity..... So that wasn't accurate either.. Now if you were paying attention to the six8 you would know that while the magpul magazine itself doesn't allow longer OAL, LWRC has every intention of different types of magazines that are not polymer being made to allow for longer OAL.... The magpul magazine was a contract requirement.... So you really think no one else will make magazines? It's been talked about by people involved in the platform, non polymer magazines allowing for longer OAL on 6.8 forums and is an obvious progression regardless. Skewing facts for whatever reason is ridiculous ..... Both are great choices and perform fantastic in their respective arena's but if someone isn't shooting over 400 yds and is primarily using the rifle for hunting the 6.8 is the better choice.... More factory hunting ammunition choices available if you don't reload.. And ammunition available at Walmart which is convenient.

What you might not be aware of is that Hornady has a 14.5" Grendel with a permanently attached muzzle device, bringing it to "16". If you look in their 8th Edition Reloading Guide, they used a 14.5" Grendel for their testing, and guess what they show the 123gr A-MAX at for max velocity? 2350fps.

When I chronograph my 16", with the chrono 15ft away from the muzzle, I get 2460fps average with Hornady 123gr box ammunition. Just what I get. You keep saying the 6.8 SPC is better within 400yd, but unfortunately, there is no data to support that claim. I just showed you where a 14.5" Grendel passes a 16" 6.8 SPC at 200yds for energy, from the muzzle for wind drift, speed at 250yds, with the same bullet design from the same manufacturer, from the same manufacturer's factory loads. That Hornady load in both guns is not light by any means.

There are no facts being skewed, at least not on my end.
 
Your profile says NW Montana.... we don't get the wind here like they get out east... I've watched guys park their 308's because they couldn't get two shots in a row to fall within 3 feet in the coulees over there at 600 yds. But LRRPF52 is exactly right.... slow, high BC bullets trump fast, low BC bullets and the wind dies NOT have to be up that high to see it... in close.

I have a 16" WOA 5.56 upper that shoots lights out at 500 yds. If it's slightly windy, I can be on plate at 750 with one shot and off the next. And off the opposite side the very next shot, depending on how much Mr. Wind wants to screw with me.

I am in the midst of gathering parts for my next upper... and it will be 6mm Fat Rat because Lee Wells will sell me parts and I reload.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ild-6-5-grendel-wildcat-fans-6mm-fat-rat.html

But if I had the bucks, I would certainly consider 6mm AR Turbo. Very similar... you just have to buy the built upper. Watch the vid in the first post here:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-rifles/204233-6mmar-turbo-1000-yd-video.html

If I was not a reloader, I would be all over a Grendel... and it's STILL attractive with factory available ammo.... the older I get the less I like to futz with stuff.

John
 
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If the max yardage you might shoot a wolf is 300yards or less,,,,,,, and the max yardage you might punch holes in paper is 600,,,, then i would just get a rock river in 223 / 556 / wylde...... Ammo and options is dirt cheap. If you will be shooting a wolf up to 600 yards then you better get something else like a 6.5 creedmore or 6creed, as 5.56 only has about 200ft lb of energy at 600 yards or about the same as a 380pistol at point blank range. 6.5 creed or 260 is an awesome round.

I just got a rock river ATH with a 18" 1:8twist stainless steel barrel and right out of the box brand new i average .69moa groups at 100yards with a 10shot test group of .75moa. For only $1130 and the last time i checked kentucky gun company still has them in stock.


http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ock-river-arms-ath-18ss-1-8-barrel-wylde.html

intended use- wolves -coyotes-wolves -home defense-wolves- maybe a pd or 3 & did I say wolves ?
I would like to know about pro's and cons of building v buying
one more question
can one lower -AR 10- use 223 and 308 uppers ?
thanks for all the response's guys -appreciated
 
What you might not be aware of is that Hornady has a 14.5" Grendel with a permanently attached muzzle device, bringing it to "16". If you look in their 8th Edition Reloading Guide, they used a 14.5" Grendel for their testing, and guess what they show the 123gr A-MAX at for max velocity? 2350fps.

When I chronograph my 16", with the chrono 15ft away from the muzzle, I get 2460fps average with Hornady 123gr box ammunition. Just what I get. You keep saying the 6.8 SPC is better within 400yd, but unfortunately, there is no data to support that claim. I just showed you where a 14.5" Grendel passes a 16" 6.8 SPC at 200yds for energy, from the muzzle for wind drift, speed at 250yds, with the same bullet design from the same manufacturer, from the same manufacturer's factory loads. That Hornady load in both guns is not light by any means.

There are no facts being skewed, at least not on my end.

Your facts are skewed as already pointed out and are verifiable on Hornady 's Web page for their 6.5 123 gr SST ammunition , I personally will rely on their published numbers. Not sure why you now bring up the A max as its not what we were discussing.... Misdirection? Try to talk around it as you may... Just like the six8 info you inaccurately suggested regarding the magazines and the potential for longer oal. I already gave you a 6.8 factory load that beats 6.5 to 600 plus yds using your example load....I gave it long ago.... The SSA Bergers 140gr. Factory load has 1150 ft/lbs of energy @ 300 yds and nearly 1000 ft/lbs at 400 yds..... 710 ft/lbs. at 600 yds and still over 1510 fps.... But you ignored it continually. Btw all those numbers are verifiable on SSA's Web page.
 
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Your facts are skewed as already pointed out and are verifiable on Hornady 's Web page for their 6.5 123 gr SST ammunition , I personally will rely on their published numbers. Not sure why you now bring up the A max as its not what we were discussing.... Misdirection? Try to talk around it as you may... Just like the six8 info you inaccurately suggested regarding the magazines and the potential for longer oal. I already gave you a 6.8 factory load that beats 6.5 to 600 plus yds using your example load....I gave it long ago.... The SSA Bergers 140gr. Factory load has 1150 ft/lbs of energy @ 300 yds and nearly 1000 ft/lbs at 400 yds..... 710 ft/lbs. at 600 yds and still over 1510 fps.... But you ignored it continually. Btw all those numbers are verifiable on SSA's Web page.

He brought up the AMax because it has the exact same weight and bc as the SST. Seems like a reasonable comparison to me.
 
Your facts are skewed as already pointed out and are verifiable on Hornady 's Web page for their 6.5 123 gr SST ammunition , I personally will rely on their published numbers. Not sure why you now bring up the A max as its not what we were discussing.... Misdirection? Try to talk around it as you may... Just like the six8 info you inaccurately suggested regarding the magazines and the potential for longer oal. I already gave you a 6.8 factory load that beats 6.5 to 600 plus yds using your example load....I gave it long ago.... The SSA Bergers 140gr. Factory load has 1150 ft/lbs of energy @ 300 yds and nearly 1000 ft/lbs at 400 yds..... 710 ft/lbs. at 600 yds and still over 1510 fps.... But you ignored it continually. Btw all those numbers are verifiable on SSA's Web page.

123gr Hornady factory A-MAX and 123gr SST clock the same, and have the same published velocities from Hornady. Doesn't matter either way, as they both have a .510 BC. There are currently no available, non-standard COL, special magazines for the Six8 receiver set, and the Six8 receiver set is not yet available. Is that inaccurate? I've been following it as well.

I already addressed the $33 SSA Berger 140gr load. It only works in certain guns, needs a tight twist, needs $45 mags, and I have yet to see any AR15 put it inside of MOA at 600yds. There was some testing with it in a Rem 700 LTR, but accuracy was less than stellar, and that thread died quickly. For shooting wolves and yotes, he doesn't need 140gr .277" bullets going at AK speeds.

There is no reason for this to be a 6.8 discussion, because 6.8 has almost no relevancy as a hunting cartridge when keen predators who are very adept at maintaining distance from humans are involved. They will keep their distance, while stalking into farmlands to snatch livestock. In the mountains of Montana, or even the plains, you need distance. An 18" or 20" Grendel would make sense as the bare bones solution from the AR15, pushing the 123gr at 2500-2600fps, if factory ammunition is a requirement. With a really accurate barrel, it could make up somewhat for velocity disadvantage to the 6mm AR or other 6mm-Grendel wildcats.

You certainly don't need premium bullets for hosing away yotes and wolves, so the Hornady SST and even the A-MAX are great options, especially at 400-600yds. All the hunting that has been done with the 123gr A-MAX shows that it performs like a Nosler Ballistic Tip, at almost half the price, and the accuracy of the Hornady factory ammunition has been absolutely amazing for what it costs. I would take it against FGGM any day, and more affordable than both .308 and .223 match loadings right now.
 
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Again you skew the facts, the magazines you mention are the most popular magazines used with the 6.8 and are the gold standard..... The chamber required is the 6.8 spc II chamber that is used by virtually every manufacturer and at this point is the standard for the round now. I'm not gonna keep pointing out your inaccurate information as most already know the truth... You ask one question, I satisfy it and then here you come with but, but, but or disinformation or just simply ignore it .... Anyone that makes the comment that 6.8 spc II has no relevancy as a hunting cartridge is obviously ignoring facts or simply blinded by being a fan boy...you responded to my op.... I didn't respond to yours....nor would I because the 6.8 vs Grendel discussion has been beat to death.... Yet you felt the need to call out my op.... Time will tell, and at this point the 6.8 has gained more wide stream acceptance than the 6.5 Grendel, for many reasons including a more reliable bolt, I hope both cartridges survive as they both have there niche. Enjoy the kool-aid.
 
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Negative. I think what you're experiencing is a condition where the inferior attributes of your choice are setting in, so you transfer those attributes to something that is competitive and superior with your choice in many ways, even to the point of depositing this internal struggle all over a thread where a guy is looking for advice on eradicating predators from his property in a region where distance and wind are significant considerations, referring to your post even as the "OP". The original post is about looking for a viable AR15 under $1500, later quantified by the need to deal with predators.

Regional Considerations
If we were out in the Great Lakes Region, or the South, shooting from blinds within dense deciduous forest where the distances were 200yds or less, an animal won't know the difference if they were hit from a 120gr 6.8 SST or a 123gr 6.5 SST.

Out in the Rockies, the terrain and landscape are totally different. Average hunting distances, especially on predators, is often 2-3x what it is out East. That means you need a cartridge that will buck the wind well. If you use a 200yd zero, the Grendel will keep you in Point-Blank Range longer than a 6.8 SPC-just the way it is because of wind-deflection.

Echo chamber Statements
The reality is that you parroted a familiar statement about the 6.8 SPC:
For hunting under 400 yards go 6.8 spc II.....if you are target shooting over 400 yrds and reload go 6.5 Grendel
I've seen this statement now for years by those who are loyal-to-a-fault, dedicated advocates of the 6.8, to the point where someone who doesn't have experience with these matters reads it online in an echo chamber, sees it repeated over and over again, then posts it as gospel truth, and expects to let it stand as sound, logical advice.

Then when called-out, simply accuse the person pointing out the numerous falsehoods of the statements as "skewing data", when that data shows a real comparison. You have to remember and try to process this: I was in the same boat when 5.56 AR15's were all that were available. I had every intention of owning a 6.8 as soon as I heard about it, until the Grendel became available. I used to believe the statements about 6.8 being better for hunting because my initial interest in the Grendel was only as a lightweight target/DM system.

After seeing that my .260 Remington smoked my .270 Winchester at distance, from a 300fps handicap at the muzzle, I then started wondering about the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 comparison from a hunting standpoint, back when we were being told that there were way more hunting projectiles for the 6.8, supported with the following picture:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/68bullets34am.JPG

It seemed to be a well-intended, reasonable statement, based on photographic evidence even. Only problem was, it was totally false by a factor of being maybe 25% of the available projectiles for the Grendel, even if we include all the GS Custom and discontinued Elite solids for the 6.8 SPC.

I'm still not sure how many projectiles are available for the 6.5mm, because there are so many to track down. There are well over 100. Here is an old photo with less than half of the 6.5mm bullets, before the 123gr SST even:



Magazines
For everyone I know that shoots 6.8, the ASC mags are the most popular, along with whatever CProducts mags are left over. Because of cost, the PRI mags are the least popular, but are preferred by a few hand-loaders who are trying to squeeze every last bit of OAL from the very limited 43mm case length when trying to get better BC pills seated on top of as much powder as possible to make up for BC deficiencies the 6.8 SPC suffers from, again with just a little more velocity. You need .157" more OAL to get decent BC pills to fit in the 6.8, so that would require a magazine with a usable (not total) COL of 2.457".

If I was building a 6.8 to be competitive with the Grendel, I would spec a tighter twist barrel for the Berger 130 gr Match Grade Classic Hunter with a .497 G1 BC at velocities 400-600fps slower than a .270 Winchester (which would use a 10" twist for that bullet per Berger's recommendation), have a magazine made to allow a usable COL of 2.450", and use the LWRC Six8 receiver set....only I wouldn't waste the time with the 6.8 case because I could just take the Grendel and do the same, giving me more powder capacity, and the ability to load 130gr class pills out long, like the 129 SST, 130gr VLD, 130gr Swift Scirocco, 129gr Nosler Accubond Long-Range, or even the 123gr SST even faster. If LWRC actually ever sells the Six8 receiver set, imagine the requests they will have to make sure it doesn't say "Six8" anywhere on it. This hypothetical situation isn't possible for us right now, so it has zero relevance to the OP's purchasing considerations.

BC is more important than velocity
My .270 Winchester also has impressive velocities with 130gr at 3050-3100fps. It stays home and collects dust, while my .260 Rem pushing 130gr at 2800fps gets taken out regularly. The short answer as to why is BC, less recoil, and way less powder. Even a 6.5x55 Swede pushing 140gr at 2600fps will give you a higher hit probability on game than the .270 at distance because of less wind drift.

What makes sense to the consumer?
From a consumer standpoint, the Grendel does plenty fine with affordable hunting bullets from Hornady, while the 6.8 tries to compete with it using premium bullets that cost way more, and still fails to match the Grendel. The fact that the 6.8 is trying to be a Grendel says a lot about the whole debate, as you don't see a lot of Grendel owners loading varmint weight bullets and running them at 2800-2900fps, even though we can. There are 24 different factory loads for the 6.5 Grendel, so there is no need to reload for it. Most of my shooting sessions with it involve the 123gr A-MAX from Hornady, although I have boxed ammo from AA, Precision Firearms, and PPU/Wolf Gold Line as well. I'll never own all of the factory options for the Grendel, there are that many choices.
 
The 5th Group SF wanted a 0-300yd rifle capable of better terminal performance than the 5.56. It does exactly that.The Grendel argument for years has been "yeah but the 6.5 is better because it has better off the shelf bullets with higher BCs", most of which can't be used in combat or hunting. Now we see one very public Grendel proponent saying "the average joe can't shoot past 300 any way so what does it matter, better training is what is needed"*What effect do high BC bullets have under 300 yds especially if the start out 100-250+ fps slower from the same length barrel? Do the slow burning powders the Grendel use burn up in 14.5 and 16" barrels or is it spit out the end burning and causing a large flash? QL will answer that for you. Has anyone thought it was important enough to test powders with flash retardant in the Grendel? I guess it hasn't got that far yet. When did the Grendel come out, 2002, and the 6.8 around 2004 yet it has been tested and is being loaded with flash reducing powder.The problems with the Grendel in combat is the bolts are weaker due to the size of the recess and the mags do not allow the Grendel to stack properly. When loaded into a G mag the tops and bottoms of the cartridges do not touch so it makes the sides of the mags bulge. Not sure how many 6.5 FMJs are made or what the BCs of those are compared to the .277fmjs. No one has thought it was important enough to manufacturer 6.5 AP bullets and test those like they have with the 6.8.*As far as hunting goes, that is personal preference, both cartridges are pretty close in performance. I would rather have a little more velocity myself and the 6.8 has plenty of good hunting bullets and ammunition in the usable range. Also one doesn't need to reload as there is more factory ammunition choices and ammunition can be bought at the local Walmart. Long range informal target shooting is where the Grendel has an edge. The higher BC match type bullets work well and there are more 6.5 match type bullets than 6.8 match type bullets but obviously one has to reload to see this advantage. Most of those that really compete in long range will choose cartridges that give them an advantage. The Grendel is no match for the 6.5x47, Creedmoor or 260 Remington. Go look at the Tac shoot results, there are many more 308s than Grendels in most matches and it seems 243s and 6mm Creedmoors are used more. I haven't really seen any results showing them in F class either. Most high power shooters still use a .223 but the 6mm Hagar is gaining quickly now that Hornady is making brass.What was the preferred use of a Grendel again?
 
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Now you're talking about using a Grendel in combat? And you stated this earlier:

I'm betting you simply want to get a Grendel vs 6.8 discussion going and probably post old 6.8 chambering velocities before the spc II chamber came about....im not going to debate what most know.... The 6.8 outperforms the Grendel for under 350 yards....

OP is looking for a wolf and yote-slayer that needs to buck the wind, not a 200yd .277 that loses gas fast and is blown all over the place by wind. You're coming apart now with straw man arguments about things that are clearly foreign to you. Powder burning characteristics in a barrel is something totally different than what you're suggesting. A general rule is that the kernels have transitioned from a solid to a gaseous state within the first 5-7" of barrel, well before the projectile exits the muzzle. The reason why combustion continues to expand is because the rate of combustion is so fast, that a continuous gas expansion dynamic has been triggered, so the pressurized gas continues to force the projectile down the barrel.

If unburnt rifle powder was continuing to exist as a solid out from the muzzle, it would travel through the gas tube, and into the chamber formed by the bolt tail and carrier of the AR15. If your statement is that the 6.8 is still being developed as a military cartridge, after its proponents were forcibly escorted off post from Fort Bragg, were never solicited for such a cartridge, and are still investing in it for military applications, you are correct. How does that help the OP slay wolves again at 400yds and further?

Hunting is where the Grendel has another clear edge against the 6.8, which is why it can be recommended over the 6.8 by someone who has taken the time to study these things. The 6.5mm bore has way more hunting projectiles for it than target pills, even though there are scores of target projectiles. It has been around since the 1800's. Most of the .277" projectiles are designed for use in the .270 Winchester, .270 Weatherby, and .270 WSM. They lose gas quickly because of lower sectional density compared to 6.5mm pills. I was raised from childhood as a .277" fanboy, so imagine my excitement when I heard that an AR15 was being chambered in a .277" bore. I'm not making this stuff up, I was literally excited when I learned about 6.8x43.

Ask yourself what it took to make me choose the Grendel over the 6.8 SPC. Once you come to terms with that, then you are on your way to being free from the echo chamber. The Grendel is the minimum that I would recommend for the OP because it's the only wind-bucking cartridge that has factory ammo for it that fits in the AR15. A D-Tech .243 WSSM or .25 WSSM would shoot much flatter, with much less wind drift, and produce awesome shock-effect on yotes and wolves. Wait times start at 12 months for uppers, ammo is scarce, some of the factory ammo has to be seated further to fit in the mags.

Any other reasonable, factory-available solutions under $1500 for the OP?
 
R25 as stated, .243...replace the stock trigger & go hunting.

R25 is bushmaster/dpms junk.

While I admit the Ar10 dpms are accurate, their parts are not condusive to long term reliability.

Do you want a Ar15 or 10 platform?

If you already do not have an AR, get one in .223. You can hunt and kill coyotes out to 500 yards with that, easy.
If you want to hunt coyotes along with deer, Get a 6.8 SPC II. 6.5G does not pull away from 6.8 untill you are getting past 500 yards and the ammo is more expensive/harder to find.
If you are actualy serious about LR, get an AR10 pattern in .260/6.5CM

Back to square one, if this is your first AR, get a .223. Do not buy a Colt. There is no reason to buy a carbine system when DD/BCM/ECT all make middies.
 
I think a lot of people missed his post #6. The main distinguishing characteristic the OP has stated is that he needs this AR to take out coyotes, and wolves, wolves, wolves. His State of residence is listed as Montana. I'm guessing wolves are a problem for him or ranchers in his area, and he intends to deal out some high-performance, super-accurate semi-automatic death to predatory menaces to the livestock.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/221/550437269_0d949624f4.jpg

White Oak varmit upper in 6.8
Decent lower with good trigger group and parts kit.
SWFA SS 10x Scope
SWFA rings
Harris Bi-pod
Mapul Adjustable Stock



Good bye critters.
 
I have the Stag Model 6 Super Varminter. It is a solid and reliable AR with the uncomplicated A2 stock, and a 24" heavy Stainless barrel that handles 75gr bullets with excellent accuracy. It is guaranteed to provide a 1/2MOA accuracy standard, and mine meets that standard out to 250yd, my maximum available range. It especially enjoys Prvi-Partizan (PPU) 69gr and 75gr match, and the brass is excellent for handloading. Mine uses a Weaver V-24 scope in simple Weaver see-thru rings as mountings.

But this is not a gun for run & gun games, the barrel is longer and heavier than what's good for those things.

For more dynamic applications, shorter distance, and/or close quarters, an alternative upper could be the answer. To keep matter simpler, I suggest another Stag Arms product, the 3H Upper. With the 1:9" rifling, Bullet weights up to 69gr should work, though 75gr may or may not also be a possibility; I see it as a good platform to employ the XM855 62gr load. I Like the Vortex SPARC sight for quick target acquisition with the added option to add the included 2X magnifier for bench shooting or somewhat extended distances beyond run & gun conditions.

Be prepared for longer order lead times, these are popular choices.

Greg
 
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I have a brand new Seekins Precision CBR rifle I'd sell you for around that. $1550+shipping and it's yours. Send me a PM if interested. Won't find a nicer AR for that price!

Mike
 
Shot placement.... period. A .223/5.56 is plenty sufficient for the stated range.

Rifle wise, everyone has their opinion. I'd personally spend another $250 and pick up a used KAC SR-15 mod1. Light, accurate and reliable (smooth recoil impulse).
 

I built mine from parts not long ago, but if I had a $1500 budget for an off-the-shelf AR, I'd pick the Stag Arms 3G. I like the stock, handguard, and other parts better than Greg's Model 6, but both are outstanding values. Another high value per dollar spent AR is Hogan Guns, and although both Stag and Hogan manufacture rifles for other big names they don't really promote their own brands much, so don't appear in magazines, etc. all that often and aren't as widely known.
 
Just one mans opinion from the shallow end of the pool. If someone asked me what AR to buy and had no experience with an AR I would say get a nice DPMS or Rock River 556 with a 1/8 twist free floated barrel. If possible get a Wylde chambered 223. Go from there and find out what you like and don't like about the platform. I would never suggest a Grendel or specialty or wildcat for someone's first AR. How many folks still have the first AR they bought? I have owned both DPMS and RRA products. They served their purpose and I moved on. Meanwhile they were easy to sell and I didn't loose a lot of money on them.
I currently have six ARs and some time would like to add on a Grendel but I would not recommend it for a first timer. Seems to me Grendel owners brag a lot on the performance of their rifles. This might set our unrealistic expectations. When I do get that Grendel if it doesn't shoot lights out I will get inferiority complexes.
Again just one mans humble opinion from the shallow end of the pool where the non swimmers are.