Advice

[neeltburn]

I have been reloading for 6-7 years now and have never tried to push my luck and find the upper pressure limits of my rifles. I will also say for my 308 bolt gun I had found my pet load for it until components started to vanish from shelves. Santa if you are reading I would be thrilled with some Aliant Re-loader 15 under the tree. I have been using Varget to load my 308s for about the last 6 months. I also moved from a 168 SMK to a 175 SMK. I choose a Load a half grain from Max and started rocking. While it is not a half MOA load like my previous it will do a MOA or should I saw did shoot a MOA. Today I get this That the same load except with a new lot of Varget. I was also seeing spikes in my Velocity up to 2824fps. Im going to try a run at finding an accuracy load with Varget and the 175. Im going to start with 43.5 and work up toward 44gn. Hoping to land about 2700 fps. As far as the pressure signs. I have had or been given the following.

1. New Lot of Varget
2. Dirty Chamber. ( I will say it is not a clean chamber ordered a chamber brush)
3. Chronograph failure ( only explains the Velocity spikes not pressure signs)
4. Ejector broke or bent. ( But it doesn't do it every time and it moves freely with a spent case)
5. Just not my day go try it again tomorrow?


So what do the folks of the Hide think or what advices can you give me.


Thanks.

 

[Joop]

First, I would back off at least a couple grains and work up. I would never start a new load only. 5 grain from listed max. Also, you did not list your COAL and freebore measurements for the 175 SMK in your rifle. That could be part of the problem, as well. As for the lots of Varget, it has been stated that there are variances between lots. I also see that you're running FC brass. Personally, I hate the stuff. I've had bad experiences with it in several calibers, including a face full of gas when using it in one rifle and witnessed a friend who blew the extractor right out of his bolt with it. All of these were related to the primer pocket. I'm not saying that the brass is directly related, but when I see a primer that's cratered like that, accompanied by an ejector pin mark as you have, on FC brass, I have to cringe a little.

My .02

John

 

[neeltburn]

COAL is 2.80 as the data suggests. I have never measured the chamber so I cannot give you that. I have to say they are still jumping but I dont know by how much. I should also add I have the same ejector mark on some Winchester cases but less primer crater.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Remington's do that primer crater, and the Federal brass is sometimes soft enough to get the ejector mark at less than max loads (but it is max for that brass)

How did the bolt lift and extraction feel?

 

[milo 2.0]

That proud ejector mark is clearly pressure, and I wouldn't put the blame on Federal brass, whether it has a bad rep or not. Back off and try again.

 

[Joop]

That proud ejector mark is clearly pressure, and I wouldn't put the blame on Federal brass, whether it has a bad rep or not. Back off and try again.

I agree and please don't take what I wrote the wrong way. I wouldn't blame it on the brass, either. My point was only that, with an obvious pressure issue, that particular brass would be the last I would want to see it on, given it's already spotty reputation.

 

[neeltburn]

so my question still is, why is it showing pressure signs after all of a sudden? The bolt lifts fine and extracts easy.

 

[308Gunner]

Any time I change Lot#s I drop charge weight and start over

 

[milo 2.0]

so my question still is, why is it showing pressure signs after all of a sudden? The bolt lifts fine and extracts easy.

I'd say your getting a slight carbon buildup in the throat, let a patch with solvent sit in throat for a few minutes, then clean however you do it, I'm not a brush fan, but a nylon one will assist.

 

[neeltburn]

I'd say your getting a slight carbon buildup in the throat, let a patch with solvent sit in throat for a few minutes, then clean however you do it, I'm not a brush fan, but a nylon one will assist.

That is what I was told yesterday. Im guessing shooting with a can has not helped that.

 

[neeltburn]

Any time I change Lot#s I drop charge weight and start over

With any powder or just Varget?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When pressure becomes unexpectedly high with brass that has been reloaded multiple times, and particularly when only some of the cases exhibit the pressure excursions, I look immediately to case length. Measure them all and make sure none are excessively long.

Greg

 

[milo 2.0]

That is what I was told yesterday. Im guessing shooting with a can has not helped that.

If the can was added after load development, that could very well be your issue, they have to change something, other than POI.

 

[milo 2.0]

Any time I change Lot#s I drop charge weight and start over

Sorry 308, but who has time for this, If my lots of powder change that much, I'd change powder.

 

[neeltburn]

I never shot Varget and a 175 until I got my can. Load was shot and checked for pressure signs and Chronographed without and can and with the can. I didn't gain any speed with my can.

 

[milo 2.0]

When pressure becomes unexpectedly high with brass that has been reloaded multiple times, and particularly when only some of the cases exhibit the pressure excursions, I look immediately to case length. Measure them all and make sure none are excessively long.

Greg

Greg,
Are you talking about trimming necks because they're too far forward, or shoulder bumping, lack of movement?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm talking about excessive neck length.

Greg

 

[bigedp51]

so my question still is, why is it showing pressure signs after all of a sudden? The bolt lifts fine and extracts easy.

Because you increased the bullet weight from 168 to 175 and only reduced the load 1/2 grain. Any time you switch components you work up a new load and your brass is letting you know the pressure is too high.

 

[neeltburn]

Because you increased the bullet weight from 168 to 175 and only reduced the load 1/2 grain. Any time you switch components you work up a new load and your brass is letting you know the pressure is too high.

Different powders.. This load did not show pressure signs before, so why now?


Sent from my IPhone 5S.

 

[TRAAV]

Is this from the last match we shot when it was raining?

 

[bigedp51]

I have read through this thread twice, and you have been given some good advice by many people. The problem is we don't have the rifle and brass in our hands and are just guessing as to the exact cause.

You switched lots of powder, you are using Federal and Winchester cases with the same load and the Federal cases show more pressure. Was the temp hotter when you shot the problem loads, did you switch primers, did you check case length, were the cases new or did you get pressure signs with old brass, etc.

The Sierra manual lists the max load as 41.7 with the 175 grain bullet and Hodgdons lists max as 45.0.

Whatever is causing the problem is a guess from your posts and your brass is telling you to reduce the load.

NOTE: I was typing this and looking through manuals and missed the above post about "RAIN".

 

[BobinNC]

nelltburn,

Advice you want, advice I will give.

First, there is plenty of words in your post, but little information. For anyone to diagnose your pressure problem real facts are necessary, like for example:

- What type of rifle?? Yes, you said .308 bolt gun, but which brand and model?
- What barrel?? Factory or custom? Barrel length?
- You said your load was 1/2 grain from MAX?? Who's Max?? Hodgdon's 45 grains or something else??
- Actually telling us your load, and primer would be helpful.
- You list a velocity spike of 2824 FPS. What was your velocity before?? In other words it spiked from what to 2824 FPS.
- Were your old velocities with or without the can??

And just for giggles from Hodgdon: Pay close attention to the velocity at max load 2690 FPS

175 GR. SIE HPBT

Hodgdon

Varget

.308"

2.800"

42.0

2583

42,600 CUP

45.0C

2690

48,600 CUP

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[neeltburn]

Trav.

The match and not hitting targets I normally do made me want to go check things. This all started Sunday.

 

[neeltburn]

nelltburn,

Advice you want, advice I will give.

First, there is plenty of words in your post, but little information. For anyone to diagnose your pressure problem real facts are necessary, like for example:

- What type of rifle?? Yes, you said .308 bolt gun, but which brand and model?
- What barrel?? Factory or custom? Barrel length?
- You said your load was 1/2 grain from MAX?? Who's Max?? Hodgdon's 45 grains or something else??
- Actually telling us your load, and primer would be helpful.
- You list a velocity spike of 2824 FPS. What was your velocity before?? In other words it spiked from what to 2824 FPS.
- Were your old velocities with or without the can??

And just for giggles from Hodgdon: Pay close attention to the velocity at max load 2690 FPS

175 GR. SIE HPBT

Hodgdon

Varget

.308"

2.800"

42.0

2583

42,600 CUP

45.0C

2690

48,600 CUP

<tbody>
</tbody>

The Rifle is a Savage Model 10 with a 24in barrel. It does have the factory barrel still.
The Load Data was taken right out of the 2013 Hodgdon's Reloading Manual.

Sized Full Length on new brass, Neck sized on Fired brass.
Trimmed 2.05
Fed. GMM Primer ( Same lot as before)
44.5 gn of Varget
175 SMK
Seated to 2.80

My Speeds normally Fall between 2700-2730.

Here is some previous Data.

6-30-2013
Temp 72* Hum 78% Baro. Press 29.78
Low was 2699
High was 2730
Ave. was 2710

Group 2

Low was 2702
High Was 2717
Ave was 2710 Again

8-23-2013
Temp 78* Hum 82% Baro Press. Was 30.1
Low was 2717
High Was 2736
Ave was 2725

Group 2
Low was 2700
High was 2713
Ave was 2706

Group 3

Low was 2672
High was 2738
Ave was 2696

Group 4

Low was 2661
High Was 2722
Ave was 2691

The new lot of Varget started in here.



10-3-2013
Temp 82* Hum was 52% Baro Press was 30.06

Group 1

Low was 2739
High was 2791
Ave was 2768

Group 2

Low was 2772
High was 2824
Ave was 2794

Group 3

Low was 2718
High was 2795
Ave was 2745

Group 4
Low was 2691
High was 2823
Ave 2775


Went home got new brass ( Winchester ) Loaded up 10 Same load 44.5 Gn Varget w/ 175 SMK weight each charge on a RCBS 505 scale.

Temp 84% Hum 54% Baro Press 30.04

Group 1
Low 2717
High 2744
Ave 2731

Group 2

Low was 2710
High Was 2731
Ave was 2722

Still showing pressure signs.

When I got my can I Chornagraphed it with and with and got the same results as with out it or maybe 5-10 fps ( I can't find that data right now) I believe it to be in the error range of the chrony as I didn't see a drastic change one way or another. It did rain at our match on Sunday as Traav said. After seeing my data had changed I wanted to verify that it was me and not the rifle and well my data had changed. Now I'm trying to figure out what is going on. So Match in the rain and new lot of powder. I am seeing issues.

EDIT: As for the mixed brands of brass. I had some fed GMM I shot and a couple pieces got mix in with my Win brass. I thought I had them all pulled out, but this one slipped by me. It just happened the one I grabs to snap the picture was the Fed. case.

 

[bigedp51]

So Match in the rain and new lot of powder. I am seeing issues.

Water in the chamber and bore will cause a increase in pressure and "bolt thrust", have you retested the ammo "dry" since the rain?

 

[neeltburn]

yes I checked it yesterday.

 

[BobinNC]

neeltburn,

From my old notes I show Federal 308 brass is 20 grains heavier (Average case wt. of 183.7 grains & a CC of 55.9 grains) than Winchester 308 brass, ( Average case weight of 163.5 Grains and a CC of 57.32 grains) so that may be part of your problem.

If it was me with your problem I would drop my load 0.4 grains to 44.1 grains and re-shoot.

Thank you for your comprehensive post.

Bob

 

[bigedp51]

Please don't take this the wrong way but when did you last clean the barrel and remove all the carbon and copper.

Below, new Savage button rifled barrel at the throat.

Two inches from the muzzle.

Savage barrel before and after fire lapping.

New custom made hand lapped barrel.

Foam bore cleaner, no brushing in a frosted milsurp barrel and it removed all the copper with minimum cleaning rod time in the bore.

A copper buildup can raise the pressure, your last chronograph readings were in the 80s and you used a new can of powder. How old was the old can of powder, was it humid when you loaded the old powder as the moisture content of the powder effects the burn rate. I would work up a new load with a safer margin below maximum to give you "MORE" room for variables.

 

[TRAAV]

Trav.

The match and not hitting targets I normally do made me want to go check things. This all started Sunday.

It might have just been that they were wet.

 

[bigedp51]

I just fed in your reloading data and BobinNC internal case capacity of 55.9 into Quickload and it is over maximum.

Quickload = 44.5 Varget, 2689 fps, 60436 psi, !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

BobinNC advice load
Quickload = 44.1 varget, 2667 fps, 58754 psi, ! Near Maximum !

WARNING: ALWAYS start 10% below these loads and work up. Seating depths have a huge effect on case pressures–moving the bullet just .010″ one way or another can push a “safe” load into the danger zone. Lot variances with powders can be extreme. Whenever you buy new powder, even the same brand, start 10% low. NEVER assume pressures will be safe if you change lots or ANY component. Case web growth is probably the most reliable indicator of over-charge. By the time you’re getting stiff bolt lift or ejector marks with fresh brass you’ve exceeded proper pressure levels. Ambient temperatures can alter pressures considerably. Don’t assume cold weather loads are safe in summer. As you approach max loads, reduce the load increments. Just 0.2 grains can make a difference.

.308 Win Cartridge Guide
.308 Win Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com

 

[neeltburn]

It was cleaned on 9-1-13 since then I have shot 88 rounds before yesterday. Yesterday I shot another 61 rounds. For a total of 149 rounds. The rifle was bought in 2009 or 2010 I bleive. I wish I would have kept better records from the start but this was my first precision rifle. Ive learned a lot along the way. My estimate is I have between 1000-1500 rounds down it. Something I have not done and plan on is cleaning the chamber its self as well. ( ordered chamber bushes last night) Will clean it again ago from there.


EDIT: What foaming bore cleaner are you using above?

 

[neeltburn]

I just fed in your reloading data and BobinNC internal case capacity of 55.9 into Quickload and it is over maximum.

Quickload = 44.5 Varget, 2689 fps, 60436 psi, !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

BobinNC advice load
Quickload = 44.1 varget, 2667 fps, 58754 psi, ! Near Maximum !

Not arguing this point, but my question is with all rifles reacting to loads differently how can Hodgdon publish this data then? Also what is Quickload?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

I had to go back and read the initial post again. This is a bit of a puzzler. For instance, what is meant by item #4, broke or bent ejector?

quote: "I choose a Load a half grain from Max and started rocking."

I think your methods could use a bit of remedial. To change stuff and drop down a half a grain is a bit Cavalier, and probably insufficient. You need to stop and reevaluate, not continue to prove your results.

Nothing leaps out at me; I thought Greg's suggestion a good one, but you have to "listen" to your rifle. Ejector marks are a sign that you are dealing with excessive pressure, probably well over 60,000? However, the primers could/should be a lot flatter, but not unheard of?

What is the reason for the can, can you judge any advantage other than a noise reduction? But, on a range, with everybody else banging away, why bother? Do you have any reason to think that it might be negatively affecting your barrel harmonics, aside from similar velocities?

About seating depth. Do you have a comparator? I'm unfamiliar with either the 168 SMK or 175 SMK but if the bearing surface of the heavier bullet is longer, that plus the heavier weight is reason enough to back off a full 10% in your load, not a token 1/2 grain. To be safe, that would be 44.5 gn of Varget or 4.5 grains. Then work up. Tedious perhaps, but at least you will know where the break off point is. As of now, you are clueless. This is basic stuff, Amigo. (no offense) BB

 

[BobinNC]

I just fed in your reloading data and BobinNC internal case capacity of 55.9 into Quickload and it is over maximum.

Quickload = 44.5 Varget, 2689 fps, 60436 psi, !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

BobinNC advice load
Quickload = 44.1 varget, 2667 fps, 58754 psi, ! Near Maximum !

WARNING: ALWAYS start 10% below these loads and work up. Seating depths have a huge effect on case pressures–moving the bullet just .010″ one way or another can push a “safe” load into the danger zone. Lot variances with powders can be extreme. Whenever you buy new powder, even the same brand, start 10% low. NEVER assume pressures will be safe if you change lots or ANY component. Case web growth is probably the most reliable indicator of over-charge. By the time you’re getting stiff bolt lift or ejector marks with fresh brass you’ve exceeded proper pressure levels. Ambient temperatures can alter pressures considerably. Don’t assume cold weather loads are safe in summer. As you approach max loads, reduce the load increments. Just 0.2 grains can make a difference.

.308 Win Cartridge Guide
.308 Win Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com

Thank you for post this. A couple of points I would like to make. First 55.9 grains H20 is the case capacity for Federal cases the OP had mixed with Winchester cases which have a capacity of 57.32 grains, so re-run you QL results again for a WW case.

Next, no matter what QL estimate says I don't consider 60KPSI as dangerous pressure for a 308 case in a bolt rifle. However, QL estimated velocity at 60KPSI is 2689 FPS and the OP's load is at least 50 FPS higher. You don't get that that kind of velocity without corresponding pressure, so the OP load in Federal brass is well up in the 65Kpsi + plus range, maybe higher. Just note dropping 0.04 grains dropped velocity by only 22 fps and PSI by 2200.

Now if you increase velocity by 50 to 100 FPS you can extrapolate his pressure as being somewhat north of 65kpsi.

 

[bigedp51]

Not arguing this point, but my question is with all rifles reacting to loads differently how can Hodgdon publish this data then? Also what is Quickload?

Click on the link below for Quickload info.

Quickload Reloading Software within AccurateShooter.com

How can Sierra publish 41.7 grains as maximum, answer, no two rifles are alike. Weight your cases, and check internal volume in grains of H2O, then work up a new load. You need a bigger safety margin between your brass talking to you and the powder charge.

 

[bigedp51]

Thank you for post this. A couple of points I would like to make. First 55.9 grains H20 is the case capacity for Federal cases the OP had mixed with Winchester cases which have a capacity of 57.32 grains, so re-run you QL results again for a WW case.

Next, no matter what QL estimate says I don't consider 60KPSI as dangerous pressure for a 308 case in a bolt rifle. However, QL estimated velocity at 60KPSI is 2689 FPS and the OP's load is at least 50 FPS higher. You don't get that that kind of velocity without corresponding pressure, so the OP load in Federal brass is well up in the 65Kpsi + plus range, maybe higher. Just note dropping 0.04 grains dropped velocity by only 22 fps and PSI by 2200.

Now if you increase velocity by 50 to 100 FPS you can extrapolate his pressure as being somewhat north of 65kpsi.

To be accurate Quickload needs to be used with a chronograph and adjust the burn rate of the powder until the chronograph and Quickload velocities match.

So you are correct that Quickload without a chronograph is a guessimate and I assumed the OP would look at the two velocities and make the same assumption you did. Quickload defaults to 56.0 grains of H2O case capacity and volume can vary from lot to lot. The OP is also showing higher pressure signs with Federal brass and I used "YOUR" H2O figures for a quick guesstimate.

In closing it doesn't matter what Quickload chamber pressure "estimate" is, the OP has brass that has flowed into the ejector. And I didn't feel like playing with the Quickload burn rate and taking more time when the brass is speaking for itself.



Evaluating Pressure Signs in Reloaded Cartridge Brass « Daily Bulletin

 

[neeltburn]

I feel like I'm starting to beat a dead horse here, and I obviously need to drop the load down and start fresh, but the same question still gets me, why did this go from a safe load with no pressure signs to this? The lot of powder is that much different? Assuming its not the rifle as I shot an old load yesterday as well (43.5gn of RE-15 and 168) and it DID NOT show any pressure signs. Can powder change that drastically from one lot to the next?

 

[BobinNC]

neeltburn,

Look you asked, so I will give you an educated guess...It is probably a combination of several factors, like;

- Powder lot change
- Used mixed cases with a 2 gr h20 capacity difference
- I don't know your powder weight technique, or tools, but is your scale reading right?
- Did you change primers, or bullet lot or brass lot. Do you weigh your brass when you get new brass to see if the weight is within your notational weight from your last lot?
- I don't mean to next couple to sound harsh but:

You failed to properly work up your load in the first place, and you failed to use your chronograph as it was intended; that is when your 1/2 grain below book MAX on powder, and your load is 50 FPS above MAX in velocity should have given you pause to think; I can't have more velocity than MAX, with less powder than MAX, and still have pressure that's also less than MAX. For whatever reason your barrel is fast, and your load was hot, even if it was not evident when you first tried your load. Since you were already on the ragged edge, it does not take much to push you over into high pressure.

When you carefully work up a load from below, like the OCW method, (but there are others) chronographing each charge weight, and comparing it to book MAX velocities (not charge weights per say) you will get a much better idea on when to stop.

Just note that 6-7 years of reloading is not very long. I've been stuffing bullets and powder into brass for over 40 years, and I'm still learning from mistakes and goof's I've made.

 

[neeltburn]

neeltburn,

Look you asked, so I will give you an educated guess...It is probably a combination of several factors, like;

- Powder lot change
- Used mixed cases with a 2 gr h20 capacity difference
- I don't know your powder weight technique, or tools, but is your scale reading right?
- Did you change primers, or bullet lot or brass lot. Do you weigh your brass when you get new brass to see if the weight is within your notational weight from your last lot?
- I don't mean to next couple to sound harsh but:

You failed to properly work up your load in the first place, and you failed to use your chronograph as it was intended; that is when your 1/2 grain below book MAX on powder, and your load is 50 FPS above MAX in velocity should have given you pause to think; I can't have more velocity than MAX, with less powder than MAX, and still have pressure that's also less than MAX. For whatever reason your barrel is fast, and your load was hot, even if it was not evident when you first tried your load. Since you were already on the ragged edge, it does not take much to push you over into high pressure.

When you carefully work up a load from below, like the OCW method, (but there are others) chronographing each charge weight, and comparing it to book MAX velocities (not charge weights per say) you will get a much better idea on when to stop.

Just note that 6-7 years of reloading is not very long. I've been stuffing bullets and powder into brass for over 40 years, and I'm still learning from mistakes and goof's I've made.

Thanks man. There is always something to learn.


Sent from my IPhone 5S.

 

[bigedp51]

If it was me with your problem I would drop my load 0.4 grains to 44.1 grains and re-shoot.
Bob

With 40 years of reloading experience how did you come up with 0.4 of a grain less powder, and work in the OCW method and make his load safer and more accurate?

You critiqued my Quickload posting but if brass flows at approximately 70,000 psi how is reducing the load .4 grains and 1,682 psi going to get the pressure down to 60,000 psi? That went over your head when I first posted it, so your .4 guesstimate is no better than Quickload!

Next, no matter what QL estimate says I don't consider 60KPSI as dangerous pressure for a 308 case in a bolt rifle. However, QL estimated velocity at 60KPSI is 2689 FPS and the OP's load is at least 50 FPS higher. You don't get that that kind of velocity without corresponding pressure, so the OP load in Federal brass is well up in the 65Kpsi + plus range, maybe higher. Just note dropping 0.04 grains dropped velocity by only 22 fps and PSI by 2200.

Now if you increase velocity by 50 to 100 FPS you can extrapolate his pressure as being somewhat north of 65kpsi.

The OP asked for advice meaning help and you decide to stroke you ego and cut him down in front of the entire forum.

Sticky at the top of the page, Thread: DO NOT ATTACK NEW MEMBERS!

I was just getting ready to post what is below when I saw your posting and decided to add a little more. And please notice Federal brass is well known for being soft, and your not the only person in the world who knows how to reload.

Signed
bigedp51, stuffing bullets and powder into brass for over 46 years.

"Case Head Extrusion
When a cartridge is fired, the breech face supports the case head. With the exception of break-action and some single shot firearms, the breech face does not totally cover the case head there's a cut-out in the breech for the extractor. Excessive pressure can cause brass from the case head to extrude into the extractor recess in the breech, leaving a raised bump on the case head in the shape of the extractor cutout.

If this extrusion does not show up on your factory 'test' rounds, but is present on your reloads, it is a very reliable indicator of over-pressure. Keep in mind that all brass is not created equal, and some brass cases (especially Federal) are softer than others. It is not uncommon to see a trace of the extractor recess impressed into the case head of factory Federal rounds, but a prominent extrusion that will catch your thumbnail is always a sign that there is something very wrong."

Reading Pressure Signs

MassReloading -

 

[bigedp51]

Thanks man. There is always something to learn.

Your thanking the guy who told you earlier to just reduce your load .4 grains and now he's kicking you in the head.

And a word of advice about asking questions if forums, at castboolits there is a person named mutigunner handing out information. The problem is mutigunner doesn't cast bullets or even have a reloading press, he simply reads other peoples postings and passes the information he read as his own in another forum.

If you want advice without oversized egos attached to it then read more "published" reloading information. And now ask yourself what did BobinNC know after reloading for 6-7 years.

 

[neeltburn]

With 40 years of reloading experience how did you come up with 0.4 of a grain less powder, and work in the OCW method and make his load safer and more accurate?

You critiqued my Quickload posting but if brass flows at approximately 70,000 psi how is reducing the load .4 grains and 1,682 psi going to get the pressure down to 60,000 psi? That went over your head when I first posted it, so your .4 guesstimate is no better than Quickload!




The OP asked for advice meaning help and you decide to stroke you ego and cut him down in front of the entire forum.

Sticky at the top of the page, Thread: DO NOT ATTACK NEW MEMBERS!

I was just getting ready to post what is below when I saw your posting and decided to add a little more. And please notice Federal brass is well known for being soft, and your not the only person in the world who knows how to reload.

Signed
bigedp51, stuffing bullets and powder into brass for over 46 years.

"Case Head Extrusion
When a cartridge is fired, the breech face supports the case head. With the exception of break-action and some single shot firearms, the breech face does not totally cover the case head there's a cut-out in the breech for the extractor. Excessive pressure can cause brass from the case head to extrude into the extractor recess in the breech, leaving a raised bump on the case head in the shape of the extractor cutout.

If this extrusion does not show up on your factory 'test' rounds, but is present on your reloads, it is a very reliable indicator of over-pressure. Keep in mind that all brass is not created equal, and some brass cases (especially Federal) are softer than others. It is not uncommon to see a trace of the extractor recess impressed into the case head of factory Federal rounds, but a prominent extrusion that will catch your thumbnail is always a sign that there is something very wrong."

Reading Pressure Signs

MassReloading -

Thanks man! I went through my brass and all the federal is GONE. (Only had the one i had caught all of it before but I did double check) I am setting all my fired brass to the side and starting back with all new Winchester brass. One more step back the right way. Going work a load back up. Got a COAL gauge ordered and will measure my chamber after I get it cleaned. Once I determine my freebore measurements I will post it up here. I am also going to look into the SMK and see how they like to be seated. Currently at 2.80 in my bolt closes very easily so I would have to think they are jumping some. Now I do realize I should have known better than to start where I did with charge weight (hope that helps some sleep tonight) but now I question who's data to use, the powder manufacturer, the bullet manufacturer? I would think the powder manufacturer would be the best but apparently I need learn more. (Which is why I'm here asking questions.) There are to many variables here I just want to look in the right place. Thanks again!


Sent from my IPhone 5S.

 

[neeltburn]

Just being kind my friend. I was raised to respect my elders.

 

[neeltburn]

Your thanking the guy who told you earlier to just reduce your load .4 grains and now he's kicking you in the head.

And a word of advice about asking questions if forums, at castboolits there is a person named mutigunner handing out information. The problem is mutigunner doesn't cast bullets or even have a reloading press, he simply reads other peoples postings and passes the information he read as his own in another forum.

If you want advice without oversized egos attached to it then read more "published" reloading information. And now ask yourself what did BobinNC know after reloading for 6-7 years.

hit the wrong button when I went to reply to this but I imagine youll figure it. Thanks man. I learning I can admit Im not always right.

 

[BobinNC]

With 40 years of reloading experience how did you come up with 0.4 of a grain less powder, and work in the OCW method and make his load safer and more accurate?

You critiqued my Quickload posting but if brass flows at approximately 70,000 psi how is reducing the load .4 grains and 1,682 psi going to get the pressure down to 60,000 psi? That went over your head when I first posted it, so your .4 guesstimate is no better than Quickload!




The OP asked for advice meaning help and you decide to stroke you ego and cut him down in front of the entire forum.

Sticky at the top of the page, Thread: DO NOT ATTACK NEW MEMBERS!

I was just getting ready to post what is below when I saw your posting and decided to add a little more. And please notice Federal brass is well known for being soft, and your not the only person in the world who knows how to reload.

Signed
bigedp51, stuffing bullets and powder into brass for over 46 years.

"Case Head Extrusion
When a cartridge is fired, the breech face supports the case head. With the exception of break-action and some single shot firearms, the breech face does not totally cover the case head there's a cut-out in the breech for the extractor. Excessive pressure can cause brass from the case head to extrude into the extractor recess in the breech, leaving a raised bump on the case head in the shape of the extractor cutout.

If this extrusion does not show up on your factory 'test' rounds, but is present on your reloads, it is a very reliable indicator of over-pressure. Keep in mind that all brass is not created equal, and some brass cases (especially Federal) are softer than others. It is not uncommon to see a trace of the extractor recess impressed into the case head of factory Federal rounds, but a prominent extrusion that will catch your thumbnail is always a sign that there is something very wrong."

Reading Pressure Signs

MassReloading -

I'm really not sure what your problem is, nobody is attacking anybody. He make a mistake, I've made mistakes, and I daresay you made mistakes. The OP used improper technique to begin with, and we cannot put that genie back into the bottle. He's using a load that's too hot, and pressure signs are evident, right? Well he did not blow himself up, or damage his rifle, so cutting back 0.4 grains is OCW in reverse.

And your QL pressure simulation is with the wrong brass and using the wrong capacity figures, of which I provided both, because the OP uses(d) both brands of brass. He is now using WW (thinner) and not Federal (thicker & softer). Further I have no need to get the pressure down to 60Kpsi (and you have no way to measure it anyway). The goal is to create a safe pressure load, for his rifle. So since 44.5 is too hot, loading 44.1 grains will not make the situation worse, and since the OP is already at the top, loading down in steps (reverse OCW) is not only prudent, but expeditious.

He does not have to start from the bottom and work up, because he already at the top, and just needs to work down. Not a ideal situation, nor one that should be emulated, but given the circumstances it makes lemonade out of lemons.

If 44.1 grains also show pressure signs he can always drop down again.

As far a my ego goes, I don't need to stoke it. My experience comes from making mistakes, just like the OP did. And if you have a problem with my post and think I have attacked another member, just report me to the moderator and let him deal with it.

Good enough for you???

 

[bigedp51]

BobinNC

I didn't use the wrong brass for my Quickload data, I used the the case with the least case capacity to show the highest pressure. The OP stated the Winchester brass had the ejector mark "BUT" the primer showed less pressure. The OP load lack consistency because he used a new can of powder and got excessive pressure signs.

Your postings lacked "consistency" because first you told the OP to reduce the load by .4. Then you said the OP load is 50 fps to high because of my Quickload "estimate" and "YOU" estimated the pressure to be "65Kpsi + plus range, maybe higher". Then you say his Winchester brass has more case capacity and thus less pressure. Then you say "loading down in steps (reverse OCW) is not only prudent, but expeditious. It would "prudent" to start below 60,000 psi and work up with new brass with a unknown weight and internal capacity.

I don't trust anyone's physic ability to "guesstimate" chamber pressures on the internet or trust anyone who doesn't give consistent answers in his postings. What I do see are slight of hand tricks and juggling case capacities and pressure data to generate a smoke screen and make yourself look good.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

I started handloading in 1969 myself, don't make too many mistakes of consequence, these days.

But look. We can use kid gloves or we can use straight talk when somebody is explaining, (what seems to me) to be poor methods. Somewhere along the way, he's decided to use shortcuts with which I disagree. He asks for help. He gets help, and in my opinion; he needs help, and advice.

neeltburn never said he knows it all, just that he has 6-7 years time in grade, which is a statement. I personally think he is a tiny bit too casual in his approach and it would be a disservice to him by taking issue with another member who is sincere and offering advice. We all know some advice is better than others, but it's all free and worth what you pay for it.

I think neeltburn should think about how he approaches changes and problems. Just trying to help; no offense intended. BB

 

[neeltburn]

I started handloading in 1969 myself, don't make too many mistakes of consequence, these days.

But look. We can use kid gloves or we can use straight talk when somebody is explaining, (what seems to me) to be poor methods. Somewhere along the way, he's decided to use shortcuts with which I disagree. He asks for help. He gets help, and in my opinion; he needs help, and advice.

neeltburn never said he knows it all, just that he has 6-7 years time in grade, which is a statement. I personally think he is a tiny bit too casual in his approach and it would be a disservice to him by taking issue with another member who is sincere and offering advice. We all know some advice is better than others, but it's all free and worth what you pay for it.

I think neeltburn should think about how he approaches changes and problems. Just trying to help; no offense intended. BB

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I do not disagree with anything said here. ( its all advice and help which is what I asked for) If I did I would have stopped coming back some time ago. I could tell there was an issue and I want to work it out. I have not posted this issue anywhere else but if I did I would imagine it would be possible to get many different forms of reply and perhaps many the same. Lesson learned, perhaps the hard way but still a lesson learned. The only thing I can do is to move forward. Perhaps I should not have stated I have been reloading for any time length, my point was that I have never pushed a cartridge to see signs of pressure, now a load that never showed any pressure sign now does. Problem Identified. Now I seek help as to why it is happening. While I see why just picking a charge weight is not the right way how would it have been different if I would have worked from 42gn to 44.5 in what ever steps? My guess is the problem would have still existed with the new Varget. It was obvious to me that to help determine what was going on it was absolutely necessary to reduce the charge weight. What I was hoping to see was that others had experienced similar things with this powder, which I guess is not the case and it makes me leery of the "next" lot of powder or re thinking using Varget at all in this rifle. ( after this 8lbs is gone)

 

[BuzzBoss915]

I think you will be fine.

My observation is that you seem to keep meticulous records at the range, but (until now) not quite the same attention to detail at the reloading bench. Just remember that a change in components is a change and unexpected results need to be curtailed and evaluated right away. BB

 

[neeltburn]

I think you will be fine.

My observation is that you seem to keep meticulous records at the range, but (until now) not quite the same attention to detail at the reloading bench. Just remember that a change in components is a change and unexpected results need to be curtailed and evaluated right away. BB

So I spent some time at the bench tonight.

First I cleaned the rifle again, Cleaned the chamber and there was no doubt it needed it. I imagine I got a lot of copper out of the throat. It was due for a GOOD cleaning. I don't have a bore scope but now I want one. ( where does it end.)

Got a bag of New Winchester brass out. Full length sized them and trimmed each one down VERY carefully to 2.05in. I also noted that there was some rim thickness variance + of - about 3 thousandths. I did do a water volume check with a couple. Not sure if I did it 100% right but got about 54.8gn. ( brand new brass) For comparison I took a federal case that will no longer be used and it only held 52.5gn of H20) Since I don't have quickload (yet) Im just keeping that as a note tonight. I got my Hornady LNL COAL Gauge and I get 2.810 and 2.89 with 2 separate 175 SMKs both weighted 175gn on the dot. ( I also wished I would have ordered a bullet comparator but more on this in a second) From there I load up rounds in 0.5gn increments from 42.5 to 44. I am using a RCBS Competition Die set. I seated the bullet at the 2.80in COAL as the data states. I noticed that my COAL would jump around not much but a thousandth or 2, here is where I feel the bullet comparator would have helped. I did not crimp any of the rounds, have not been crimping bolt gun rounds for some time. My plan is to shoot a group of 5 shots ( a few of my tried and true 168s over RL 15) to lead the barrel up some. after the rifle cools my plan is to start at the low charge weight and work up as long as the pressure signs are not present. I will shoot a group of each round with and without the suppressor and document the accuracy and velocities. Anything I am missing?