I want to get out to a mile with my M24r. Looking for 3-5 consecutive hits on an IPSC sized target. I have the optics problem solved (thanks nightforce), but there looks to be 2 methods for getting out to 1 mile accurately: the first would be a transonically stable bullet like a 185 Juggernaut, and dealing with massive wind drift. The other is trying to launch a 230 berger at 2500+. I'm not sure which path I should start down. Is a 208 amax the middle road? Advice welcome.
- Thread starter calshipbuilder
- Start date
You want to be at high altitude for some help. And you need good weather for less wind and maybe less mirage to see that far. 308 doesn't have much steam left in it at 1 mile. I have seen guys do it and have played with mine on rocks at that distance. Only one time did my gun seem to have somewhat consistent hits around the rock, and I was shooting a 20" bbl with 175 FGMM with like 20moa dialed on wind in Kansas. The other times I tried I was not at all pleased with the results go figure LOL. I would say that a long bbl 308 with a good set of eyes on a spotter behind you shooting high speed 155 scenars or 208 amax or such would be the way to go in ideal situations while having a perfect backdrop to spot misses. People have done it so you cant say it ccant be done. Just isn't very practical without the perfect setup.
Good Luck with it!
Good Luck with it!
Twist rate of barrel on your M24r? Barrel length?
What is OAL to touch lands with 185 Juggernaut? 230 Berger? 210 Match BT LR? 215 Match Hybrid?
It can be done very easy: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...4215-308-1000-1178-1385-1650-1950-meters.html
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It's a worthy goal, I had that same urge to climb that mountain, have not found the location yet. I don't have my firing solutions notes with me here, but remember velocity will overcome twist. There's a guy named Scottys1 on the You Tube who has done it with 155 grain Lapua Scenars at about 2940fps. One challenge is, assuming you have 20MOA built under your scope, you still run out of elevation adjustment, obviously. So use the Mils to hold off. 2.5 Mils, 3+ likely. I think at 60 MOA dialed in w/ 155 gr. Bergers at 2800 fps I would begin holding 3Mils. You may get Juggernauts going 2500+ fps, but run out of elevation adjustment sooner, like -250 yards and hold off more on the mil reticle, but it has advantages unique in its BC.
Look, I'm no expert. But I would chrono. my shells first thing when you get to your firing location. An accurate MV and a great BC are must haves. Dial in the firing solution. Even with no wind, you're going to have upwards of 50"+ of corriolis and wind to account for in its 3+ sec. journey.
Happy Shooting.
Look, I'm no expert. But I would chrono. my shells first thing when you get to your firing location. An accurate MV and a great BC are must haves. Dial in the firing solution. Even with no wind, you're going to have upwards of 50"+ of corriolis and wind to account for in its 3+ sec. journey.
Happy Shooting.
P.S. I would start with half a sheet of plywood with a hi vis target on it!
Maybe more than a half sheet?
I would start at a range you are comfortable with in terms of accuracy and back out in increments, unless you have the IPSC targets to set up and work your way out.
You will need an excellent spotter and/or ideal spotting conditions though time of flight will be on your side.
When my friend and I were shooting at a mile his 7mmRM shooting 162 AMAX's didn't have a whole lot of energy at that range.
We got amazingly lucky and our mile steel was set up with a loose sand dune behind it.
That allowed us to spot misses very accurately.
If there is a lot of vegetation around your target I think you'll be hosed.
Have fun!
I would start at a range you are comfortable with in terms of accuracy and back out in increments, unless you have the IPSC targets to set up and work your way out.
You will need an excellent spotter and/or ideal spotting conditions though time of flight will be on your side.
When my friend and I were shooting at a mile his 7mmRM shooting 162 AMAX's didn't have a whole lot of energy at that range.
We got amazingly lucky and our mile steel was set up with a loose sand dune behind it.
That allowed us to spot misses very accurately.
If there is a lot of vegetation around your target I think you'll be hosed.
Have fun!
I am stoked to try this soon. Waiting on my scope to get back from repair and then its off to the range to get a zero, verify dope and then go to my spot to really stretch it out!
I'm comfortable to 1130 with m118lr. It chronos at 2650 from the m24's 24 inch 11.25 twist barrel. I haven't measured the throat, but as this is a long action, I intend to seat as long as the throat will allow. My problem is deciding between slow and slippery and fast but stable. I have ~90 moa in up elevation from my nsx 3.5-15 with a 45 moa rail, and 30 more on the reticle.
Maybe more than a half sheet?
I would start at a range you are comfortable with in terms of accuracy and back out in increments, unless you have the IPSC targets to set up and work your way out.
You will need an excellent spotter and/or ideal spotting conditions though time of flight will be on your side.
When my friend and I were shooting at a mile his 7mmRM shooting 162 AMAX's didn't have a whole lot of energy at that range.
We got amazingly lucky and our mile steel was set up with a loose sand dune behind it.
That allowed us to spot misses very accurately.
If there is a lot of vegetation around your target I think you'll be hosed.
Have fun!
Nice shooting! I plan on starting with 2 full 4x8 sheets to get on paper, then switching to smaller targets when I know whats going on. If my bullets are tumbling, I'll know I need to change bullets. I'll have spotters. DA should be close to 5k.
There is a great thread about someone taking the .223 to 1 mile with reasonable accuracy, so in theory know this is possible. I just worry about bullet instability and wind drift.
It can be done. There's a guy who posted some stuff on Long Range Hunting.com a long time ago, where he shot a .223 rifle to 1 mile. I think he did for under $1000, using a Savage rifle and (Vortex?) scope. His target was two barrels side by side, I think that was what he figured on being the minimum target size at that range for the given rifle. Scope had so much tilt it looked like a damn dragster. But he did it. I'd try and look that up as a start, it may have some info that would help you.
SAW FM tells (or told) how to use the SAW like a mortar to hit enemies at long range or behind cover. Not sure if 240 says same thing. It works and I've done it once to somewhere around a mile, but I had to walk 'em in of course, there's no sights on the SAW to pull that off. We just tried it out because it was in the manual, but nobody knew of anyone that had done it.
I'd work the whole problem out on paper first to save a lot of frustration. For instance, your IPSC target may be too small for anything but probable/lucky hits.
SAW FM tells (or told) how to use the SAW like a mortar to hit enemies at long range or behind cover. Not sure if 240 says same thing. It works and I've done it once to somewhere around a mile, but I had to walk 'em in of course, there's no sights on the SAW to pull that off. We just tried it out because it was in the manual, but nobody knew of anyone that had done it.
I'd work the whole problem out on paper first to save a lot of frustration. For instance, your IPSC target may be too small for anything but probable/lucky hits.
They shot a mile with 45//70s over 100 years ago. Picture that angle!
You need to focus on firing and target position just as much as your data/solution. You will need to be able to spot hits and misses or you will be wasting time. Even if you can get walkie talkies and have a spotter closer to the target to spot impacts. The 308 will have no ass to it at that range. I would do it in real dry palces where dust will kick up. Everything needs to work out in your favor for good results.
MLC, nice shooting.
I will be shooting into a dusty field, so as long as there isn't rain, or weeds. I should see plenty of dust kick up. I've shoot some 230 ball from a 1911 at ~75 yards while playing around in the same terrain and got plenty of kick up. I'm thinking I'll start with 2 4x8 sheets of plywood to get on target and see what the bullets are doing and If I can get them to group. If they are tumbling, that will tell me I picked the wrong load.
I'm going to start with the 230 Hybrid. If that doesn't stabilize, I'll try the OTM, and if still no, I've heard from plenty of people that the 208 amax will stabilize in a 1:11.25. I plan on loading with RE17 or similar. If I get that 230 berger moving at 2500 FPS, I'll be supersonic (and therefore should be stable) out to a mile. I know this is over book, but I load long I should keep pressure under control - I'll work up safely... I just think that the wind drift with the lighter bullets (even shot at warp speed) will prevent me from getting decent groups.
I will be shooting into a dusty field, so as long as there isn't rain, or weeds. I should see plenty of dust kick up. I've shoot some 230 ball from a 1911 at ~75 yards while playing around in the same terrain and got plenty of kick up. I'm thinking I'll start with 2 4x8 sheets of plywood to get on target and see what the bullets are doing and If I can get them to group. If they are tumbling, that will tell me I picked the wrong load.
I'm going to start with the 230 Hybrid. If that doesn't stabilize, I'll try the OTM, and if still no, I've heard from plenty of people that the 208 amax will stabilize in a 1:11.25. I plan on loading with RE17 or similar. If I get that 230 berger moving at 2500 FPS, I'll be supersonic (and therefore should be stable) out to a mile. I know this is over book, but I load long I should keep pressure under control - I'll work up safely... I just think that the wind drift with the lighter bullets (even shot at warp speed) will prevent me from getting decent groups.
The .223 at one mile article is a great writeup. I think my accuracy goal (3 consecutive hits on an IPSC target) is a bit smaller. I've watched David Tubb's mile shot video and the mile shots from the Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle and think these are good references as well for anyone trying to do this.
I was shooting a 142 Sierra at 3150ish.
At a mile if I missed a wind change I missed by several yards.
What glass are you using?
At a mile if I missed a wind change I missed by several yards.
What glass are you using?
308 win for 1 mile shot
I disagree. The mile shot part of the Magpul video should be used mostly for its entertainment value.
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Nightforce 3.5-15x56. The 50mm version was used to take a rock chuck at 2200 yards...
338 Allen Magnum, first rock chuck hunt........ - Reloading for rifles - Metallic cartridge reloading - The Handloaders Bench
338 Allen Magnum, first rock chuck hunt........ - Reloading for rifles - Metallic cartridge reloading - The Handloaders Bench
what's not helpful? Tubb does use a different caliber (6.5x284), but he walks through the entire process, from equipment to ballistic calcs, to execution. He also states that the bullets were transonic before reaching the target.
The Magpul vid goes less into details, but it shows guys hitting an 18" plate at 1 mile with .308s, including a short barreled OBR. I have no way to tell if they actually did it, but I don't think they'd lie to us.
I've made it to a mile with a 1/12 twist 308, starting 208s at 2600 fps (49gr RL17, moly, 3.08" oal), at 4500' elevation. Depending on temperature, it has taken anywhere from 80-90 moa. It's not something to be taken too seriously, but fun.
Tried it at 2900 ' elevation, my load seemed to really fall apart past about 1650 yards. Maybe a faster twist would have helped.
I've found best spotting of splashes in dry conditions, minimal vegetation, shooting toward the afternoon sun. Also try to set up your target so the bullets will be impacting the ground at some kind of oblique angle, it will kick up more dust. If you are shooting straight into dirt at near perpendicular angle, you get less splash as the bullet is sort of diving straight in.
Good luck, and have fun with it.
Tried it at 2900 ' elevation, my load seemed to really fall apart past about 1650 yards. Maybe a faster twist would have helped.
I've found best spotting of splashes in dry conditions, minimal vegetation, shooting toward the afternoon sun. Also try to set up your target so the bullets will be impacting the ground at some kind of oblique angle, it will kick up more dust. If you are shooting straight into dirt at near perpendicular angle, you get less splash as the bullet is sort of diving straight in.
Good luck, and have fun with it.
Cal
Pick a no wind day, it helps a lot. Shot a couple of .308 at a mile (Jean, NV, by dry lake bed, cannot remember elevation), steel target 15"x24" (thanks Kurt), Sako TRG 22 and Remington PSS, both 26" barrels, factory GMM SMK 175 gr, hits ratio 25% with the TRG (5 hits out of 20 rounds), 6 hits with the PSS, also out of 20. Scope S&B 5-25x56 and NF 5-22x50, both rifles have badger 35 MOA rails. Shot prone. Scopes will be maxed out and you will need to use the lower part of your reticle (got the dope in my log books, if interested).
Not the best tool for the job but it can eventually get you out there, fun stuff anyway
The magpul video was an example of creative editing, sure they did it, something like 36 takes to do so...
People waste a ton of rounds to nick a target randomly with no sense of purpose. (with a 308)
Sure you can do it, because we are arrogant enough to try, that doesn't mean it is useful or successful. For most, it works today, not tomorrow, barely the next day and all it demonstrates is our willingness to waste ammo. If you can't hit the target in 3 shots or less, or if you can't hit the target 3 shots in a row, you are wasting ammo.
Right tool for the job... a 308 is not the right tool by any stretch of the imagination. Just because the bullet will fly that far doesn't mean it is practical. Would you consider shooting a .22 to 800 yards a practical exercise ? Most would not, but that doesn't mean, "if the conditions are right" we can't launch them in that general direction and the law of averages would probably show something will hit eventually.
But stupid is as stupid does...
People waste a ton of rounds to nick a target randomly with no sense of purpose. (with a 308)
Sure you can do it, because we are arrogant enough to try, that doesn't mean it is useful or successful. For most, it works today, not tomorrow, barely the next day and all it demonstrates is our willingness to waste ammo. If you can't hit the target in 3 shots or less, or if you can't hit the target 3 shots in a row, you are wasting ammo.
Right tool for the job... a 308 is not the right tool by any stretch of the imagination. Just because the bullet will fly that far doesn't mean it is practical. Would you consider shooting a .22 to 800 yards a practical exercise ? Most would not, but that doesn't mean, "if the conditions are right" we can't launch them in that general direction and the law of averages would probably show something will hit eventually.
But stupid is as stupid does...
I tend to agree with Frank, every time I see "308 to kajillion yards" I just get irritated. It's not proof of marksmanship. Use the right tool for the job. Can it be done? Yes, of course. So you burned 30 rounds and got 4 hits, what did it gain? Build a 300 WM or 100 other different calibers more appropriate to the distance and learn to get RELIABLE hits at that distance. I built a 338 Edge on a Savage action and went 3/3 at just under a mile with crappy glass. I don't say this to brag, just that it can be done reliably with not much money.
It's fun to bust rocks that are way out there on a slow day. It's fun to do something with 308 that most will never do. But get it out of your system and use a better tool for it next time.
It's fun to bust rocks that are way out there on a slow day. It's fun to do something with 308 that most will never do. But get it out of your system and use a better tool for it next time.
For conversation,
Let's say you are shooting to a mile with a 300 WinMag, launching a 208 AMax at 2950 fps. In local atmo (4500' ASL), it will retain about 1300 fps at a mile.
If you are shooting the 208 AMax from a 308 Win, at 2650 fps, in the same atmo, it will retain 1300 fps to about 1450 yards.
So yeah, the 308 is out of gas at a mile, no argument, it's pure entertainment. But ballistically, it's only about 300 yards short of the 300 WinMag with the same bullet.
Let's say you are shooting to a mile with a 300 WinMag, launching a 208 AMax at 2950 fps. In local atmo (4500' ASL), it will retain about 1300 fps at a mile.
If you are shooting the 208 AMax from a 308 Win, at 2650 fps, in the same atmo, it will retain 1300 fps to about 1450 yards.
So yeah, the 308 is out of gas at a mile, no argument, it's pure entertainment. But ballistically, it's only about 300 yards short of the 300 WinMag with the same bullet.
Ballistically it's not "only" 300 yards short. It's no longer supersonic, it's not carrying the same BC because it's going too slow, and since it's not going supersonic 300 yards is huge. Unless of course as part of your entertaining your a few hundred feet above the target and lobbing them in. Letting gravity give you a bit of a hand.
By your reasoning, a .22 is suitable to what 600, 800 yards. It'll continue to fly if the angle is right, wouldn't that be fun.
Try chronographing you bullet at the muzzle and the target and if your bcc is ballistically the same. Speed matters.
By your reasoning, a .22 is suitable to what 600, 800 yards. It'll continue to fly if the angle is right, wouldn't that be fun.
Try chronographing you bullet at the muzzle and the target and if your bcc is ballistically the same. Speed matters.
I've shot more than a few 208s out of the 308Win. I've observed that when the speed drops below 1300 fps or so (calc'd via Litz bc), things do start getting unpredictable.
I don't have any experience with the 22 rimfire past about 400 yards.
I don't have any experience with the 22 rimfire past about 400 yards.
But look at a 7mm-08 & you gain 4-500 yards, I think 1500 yards because the BC is better. Go to a 7RM & add about 400 more yards, 1900 I think. I want to try it with a 308 just because but IMHO I think a 7mm mag is the way to go without spending the big bucks on a 338 Lapua
I think Frank summed up exactly what I've always thought when I've heard of .308's being shot to a mile. I'm not saying I'd never pull the trigger on a target at that distance with a .308 just for shits-n-grins, but it certainly isn't a practical rifle for shooting that distance. I guess it is good to push your limits from time to time, just to find out where they are at, but I expect that beyond 1,200 yards a .308 is usually going to be a pretty silly choice (except for tossing bullets for the heck of it).
Didn't think anyone would took this too seriously, so to clear all misunderstandings, we all agree that shooting .308 at a mile is not appropriated; as for some of us, it was fun at the time and I do not regret giving it a try, it was more of an "experiment" than anything else. To really hit something at a mile, I use .338 LM.
Shooting at a mile with a 308 if a fun exercise, but it's not practical by any means. The times I have done it it was middle of the summer, so it was dry and the misses would at least make a dust splash. If it had rained or the grass was high, it was a waste of time and ammo. It might be good for bragging rights, but that's about it.
After reading the great replys and my experiance today with my 6.5x284 at 1350 yards, I'm really second guessing the feasability of this. I got elevation nailed down well, but light breezes were throwing my 140vlds all over the place. This rifle/scope/load combo shoots consistent 1 inch groups at 300, but I was only hitting a 1.5 moa target 40% of the time. Very frustrating.
I'm in agreement now that even if I completely max out the capability of the .308, I'm not going to stay on target consistently with even a light sifting breeze.
I'm in agreement now that even if I completely max out the capability of the .308, I'm not going to stay on target consistently with even a light sifting breeze.
One thing that drove me crazy when I was "wasting ammo" at 1400 with my 223AI was misses due to plunging trajectory that looked like windage errors.
I can only imagine a 308 at a mile being worse.
I can only imagine a 308 at a mile being worse.
Here's a look at my 1 mile external ballistics on a warm summer day.
208 AMax (calculated at G1 .630)
2620 fps
25.50 Hg pressure
70F temp
30% humidity
Even for this optimized handload, in good atmo conditions, past 1200 yards or so wind drift becomes huge and exponentially worse as you go out. at a mile, each 1 mph wind is pushing the bullet over 20". Remaining velocity is deep in the transonic range. Expecting consistent hits on an 18x30" target just isn't realistic. It's still fun to give it a go now and then though.
208 AMax (calculated at G1 .630)
2620 fps
25.50 Hg pressure
70F temp
30% humidity
Code:
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Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 20 fps
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·Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds ·
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| 0 2620 0.0000 3170 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
X 100 2503 0.1165 2894 0.0 0.3 0.33 2.6 0.0 0.00 0.78
| 200 2389 0.2385 2636 -3.5 1.7 0.80 10.7 +4.9 +1.68 1.59
| 400 2171 0.5030 2176 -29.6 7.9 1.89 45.9 +20.6 +7.09 3.35
| 600 1963 0.7912 1780 -84.5 18.3 2.92 110.0 +39.2 +13.48 5.27
| 800 1769 1.1150 1446 -176.8 35.0 4.18 211.4 +61.4 +21.13 7.43
| 1000 1591 1.4754 1169 -314.7 58.1 5.55 358.4 +87.4 +30.07 9.84
| 1200 1428 1.8707 942 -505.4 87.4 6.96 558.3 +117.0 +40.24 12.47
| 1400 1288 2.3145 767 -768.2 125.2 8.54 830.2 +152.4 +52.41 15.43
| 1600 1174 2.8029 636 -1116.3 170.9 10.20 1187.5 +193.7 +66.64 18.69
| 1760 1102 3.2254 561 -1468.6 213.0 11.56 1547.0 +231.6 +79.69 21.50Even for this optimized handload, in good atmo conditions, past 1200 yards or so wind drift becomes huge and exponentially worse as you go out. at a mile, each 1 mph wind is pushing the bullet over 20". Remaining velocity is deep in the transonic range. Expecting consistent hits on an 18x30" target just isn't realistic. It's still fun to give it a go now and then though.
MontanaMarine Even for this optimized handload said:10-4 and that's what it's all about
Love Lowlight and respect him. However, . . . . isn't that what's fun about shooting? Trying to find out what works and won't? I love "wasting ammunition" while a tri-tip is slowly cooking and beer is sloshing around a cooler while I'm trying to wing a plate of steel, whatever size, at whatever distance. I guess its like fishing. Who cares what you catch, its better than sitting on the couch. God bless you and your 1 mile 308 shot and all the ammunition you're gonna have to waste to do it and all the tri-tip you're gonna be forced to eat and all the cigars you're gonna have to smoke . . . . . . (Can I come? I got 308 to waste.) Hell, I'm happy shooting a damn potato gun, which apparently is cheaper than 308 now.
We've already covered killing prairie dogs past 3,000 yards...
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../142463-killing-prairie-dogs-3-125-yards.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../142463-killing-prairie-dogs-3-125-yards.html
I thought the record was 2 miles (over 3500 yards) for a prairie dog, shot out in west Pueblo CO
I use the 208 Hornady BTHP (not Amax) Winchester cases and RL-17 with just over 45gr, can't remember off the top of my head. I'm pushing that at 2650 out of a 24" Savage.
Over the last 2 years, out our quarterly mile shoot here in Idaho, I can hit the mile gong regularly. I haven't cold bore shot it, but I am usually on in a couple of shots, and have back to back hits as well at that distance. I shot this setup for about 3 or 4 matches of the last couple of years, and while the 308 is not the ideal bullet... it was fun to do it. I run a 45MOA base on my rifle, and I can still hold a 100yd zero and almost dial to a mile, need a few minutes of hold over to get there.
I did it because that was all I had at the time, this Friday we are doing our annual after thanksgiving mile shoot, and I'll break in my 338 Edge...
If you want to do it with a 308, go for it... it's fun and challenging... but I would agree, not the best tool for the job.
What powder are you running to get 2600 FPS out of the 208 A-Max. All my load data books are telling me that 2300 fps is as hard has you can push it. If you have a tried powder and weight in grains I would love to get it. I hate that mine are running so slow. I am about to abandon the round and go lighter for better velocity. I am hooked on the BC of that round though and I really like how it shoots. Any help?
There is no load data for what I'm doing. At leat published that I am aware of. Reloader 17 was what was posted here at one point to try, so I did. I think I'm at 46.5gr. You pretty much have to use Winchester brass, the lapua doesn't have enough case capacity. This is a compressed load, and the bullet is seated as far out as possible, touching the lands. And there are pressure signs on the primer.
Use caution.
A hit w/ a .308 at 1 mile is like finding gold at the end of the rainbow (literally).
Best advice I've seen, also look at the weather patterns for a few days, ideally you can't get perfect weather, but you can try to illuminate the worst days to shoot.
Good luck with this shot!
luvmy45, what size gong are you shooting at 1 mile?
